You got it Renae! Way to go. You have learned to self-validate, to stand for your own integrity and to battle the forces of evil as expressed in your family and through your husband! I didn't know you had it in you! <P>And the progress you are seeing is just the right amount. Don't expect it to go quickly. But do demand that it continue. I kept raising the bar for my H and have been rewarded by continuous progress in his spiritual and emotional development. <P>Your own strengths and expectations will set the standard for the relationship. One cannot change ones self and not induce a change in the other person. Of course your partner has the choice of whether that consequent change will be positive or negative. <P>Stand firmly in faith and you will be rewarded with strength and integrity. He may decide on his own life's choices, but it sounds like he is truly committed to the marriage and that means that you have the upper hand in the battle. <P>I am just so happy to hear your tone in this last post!! I just love it. Best wishes Renae. Will we see you down at Women's Bible Study some time?<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Hi Karenna,<BR>When does your study meet?...and tell me again how to get there. I think I could use that right now! With the the counseling, H has been worse to handle, and I've been losing motivation toward Bible reading, prayer, etc. Not consistent here!....<P>H keeps striking up talks in which he hammers me with his perception of me and our situation. Like tonight--(with the kids hearing), he preached how right he is on everything and how distorted I am and<BR>have always been. He says I need to believe the facts about him, and crucify my feelings and made-up negative stories! He claims that he is completely Biblical, doesn't have any bad patterns of behavior, and has<BR>always lived a balanced life. On the other hand, he views me as uncompromising, a liar, having the bad spirit and behavior patterns of my parents, and in my own world, out of touch with who he really is. He says he will not attend the marriage seminar this coming weekend because of how bad I am. It's all my fault. He snarled these things angrily and left the house this evening. <P>Just when I thought yesterday I had another wind to carry on here and respecting my "position", as Counselor said, I get<BR>bombed with another round of false accusations/projection. I had asked her if she agreed with the books that describe such abusive relationships, and she said she knows the dynamics but disagrees with their solution. So what is her solution??????? I don't think we're going back to counseling together.<P>After tonight's experience, I'm numb. Maybe a more permanent separation will be necessary. This seems like a new effort to control.<P>One of H's brothers confronted him on the phone a few days ago that he isn't giving his wife and family priority but only works all the time. H accused me of telling his brother that....I didn't, of course. It's just obvious to others, but not H. <P> Still Struggling,<BR> Renae <BR>

Just run down the selection of MB Forums until you reach <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=25&SUBMIT=Go" TARGET=_blank>Women's Bible Study</A>. Or just click on my link there. We post everyday, not just once a week. Tonight we had Tuesday prayers, but you are welcome to jump in with your requests, insights, prayers, scriptures etc. at every time and on any post!<P>Get busy reading. There are some amazing women and amazing stories. Maybe Taj will pull some up out of the deep dark archival depths of the past for you if you ask. The Boundaries ... (SueB) thread is absolutely must-read material. "Why we pray in Jesus' name" is an old post with great stuff in it. And all that doesn't even touch the prayer chapters in our studies of Power of a Praying Wife. Welcome to our little spiritual community on the MB corner of the web!<p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited November 15, 2000).]

Read your last post, and in some ways I am encouraged, Renae. Two things that I saw were that when his brother confronted him, he had to take a look and experience the reality that others see him as you do. The easiest way to deny that is to blame you. The second thing was the recent barrage in front of the kids for you to "change back" to the old mousey compliant you. As long as he can blame you, he doesn't have to look at himself.<P>Renae, reevaluate yourself and the reasons you are fighting the battle. I constantly keep the purpose in front of me, the goal. I keep reevaluating to make sure my purpose is pure and I don't stray far from the Lord these days because He is my strength. As soon as the evil one can make you feel weary, he gets a foothold. He wants you to get in a withdrawal mode, to no longer care about the marriage. <P>That is not to say that you shouldn't go to the other house when hubby is being verbally abusive, Jesus took time away from others to pray and to be refilled to continue the battle. The key though is to be very loving and clear about the reason why you are going and that is where the Boundaries thread will help on the women's forum. <P>You need to value him and yourself. It really isn't honoring him or the children to remain and allow the nasty comments to continue. It is better to quietly and firmly answer him. I personally use 1 Cor 13 to answer my H. "Is that kind dear?" Is that keeping a record dear? Is that rude dear? I use that passage to define in my mind what love is and isn't and in the spirit of that truth, I can calmly have that ready answer for what I believe and I can put into practice those things so that I am working on taking the log out of my own eye. <P>God tells us that we are going to have troubles in this world and the signs of the end times talk very much about what we are going through, relationships breaking down, etc. We have to strive to keep "grace" and its ramifications to the forefront, for our whole belief system is based on "grace" rather than "law". By faith then, I can forgive him even though I would just as soon flush him down the toilet. By faith, I can continue to asert the loving godly principals set down in the Word regarding respecting the position God has given my H even though he is not being respectful or the shepherd/leader God has called him to be. <P>By faith, I can affirm those positive steps my H has taken and be firm, when he attempts to change the direction of the conversation into a SueB bashfest, to restate "Honey, I was complimenting you on this one thing and it really is better to say thank you so that the compliment isn't negated", and then to kiss him and walk away.<P>I think of Jesus weeping over Jerusalem and the love and pain he felt over their hardness of heart and I can be filled with compassion for my H, lost in his insecurities and not understanding the importance of grace and I have another kinship and understanding into Christ and the love He has for us. I print out verses and tape them to the puter so that the Word is my constant focus on why I am doing what I am doing. <P>One of my favorites is Is. 41:10 "Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God, I will strengthen you, Surely I will help you." It is my reminder that I have been, in the past, walking on eggshells so that H wouldn't blow up, that I have been allowing his rage to be the focus of my life rather than trusting God and seeking His face and His precepts to change me into the woman He would have me become.<P>I too, am seeing minscule changes here on the homefront. I too, am struggling with this new assertive role, focusing on what loveis and isn't to clarify things to my H and yet, when I read Proverbs 31, this lady was confident in the Lord and out of her confidence, she was powerfully independent and an asset to her H and in the end, he praised her for it. My H deserves that kind of woman, even though he doesn't appreciate it yet.<P>Keep your focus Renae! I am praying for you.

Renae, Sue B and others:<P>I hear what you are saying, but I don't think you have ever heard of 'Tough Love'.<P>It seems all of my input and postings on the separation being more for your husband's sake than for yours, have gone unheeded.<P>I'm sorry, but because I am a man and was alot like your Husband...I feel I know what I'm talking about.<P>As long as you are there as his scape-goat and verbal punching bag...he will NEVER face his issues.<P>Renae....I am all for you and for your ultimate happiness...but I feel I have no more to say and won't be posting any longer.<P>[censored] from Texas<P>

[censored], Sue B, Karenna, and all,<P>Thank you to all of you! <BR>I had a phone conversation with H this afternoon that was difficult but made some progress. H said he found an article on the internet (this is the man who has refused to read other materials besides the types of his church. Good that he's searching!!!) discussing the importance of compromise, that it is necessary for all marriages. This is quite a change of mind from his years of "everything is going to be my way, Submit Woman!" I shared Dennis Rainey's comment that a common blueprint is needed to build from. H liked that concept.<P>He complained about the negative stuff brought up in counseling. I said that was to bring about a repentance and desire to go forward in a positive direction. I said the reason we should go to the Marriagebuilder's seminar this weekend is to help us draw a new blueprint for the future because the past has not worked. H says ok, but he doesn't think I'm serious about it so he won't waste his time. I said I wouldn't be asking to go if I wasn't serious about trying. In fact, I said, if we don't go, I am ready to leave after the holidays, as I just can't keep on as things are now--in a constant power-struggle between his perception and mine. H said we need to set our perceptions down long enough to figure out some better plan. H didn't fully commit to attending the seminar but almost...I think he might commit, but said for sure I could go. So I signed up and the secretary said H can still come even if he decides to at the last minute. I feel this is positive!<P>Pray that H will go this Friday eve. and Saturday. I think it would give him a positive picture, rather than showing him the negative stuff as we did at counseling. Now's the time to show him what's normal, to see what our life is missing. This way I give him a chance to realize how dysfunctional our life has been and then to either reject Harley's message or accept it. H is very close to attending..... <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited November 15, 2000).]

[censored],<P>Please stay! Your presence is a support for me to stay strong with H or else!! I am exercising tough love in gradually increasing forms. Your prayers are vital to H becoming a man of grace!!! I picked up your testimony booklet this morning and remembered that<BR>it is still possible for H to experience that miracle. I will leave permanently if that's what it takes, and H knows it.<P>Sister to brother hugs,<BR>Renae

[censored], my brother in Christ,<P>Your words have not gone unheeded, but have been cherished with the other inputs to meditate and pray about. While going through the experiencing God bible study, one of the things that really impacted me was to continue doing what you are doing until God tells you to do otherwise. That understanding to do otherwise will display itself in a peace that you cannot understand other than you know it is right.<P>All I was trying to share with you and others is a greater understanding of where I feel Renae and I are right now, the process of taking the log out of our own eyes, in that as Jesus spoke the truth in love, Renae and I have, in the past, allowed abuse to deviate us from speaking the truth in love, from setting limits and boundaries in love for the good of the marriage and have not shown our husbands the respect they deserve by receiving this truth in love. It is not honoring to allow abuse to continue, not to ourselves, not to our husbands and not to our Lord who gave His life up for us.<P>That God touched your heart after being left by someone you love is wonderful, but He doesn't work the same way in all of us. The insecurities I see in my DH and that Renae sees in her H, their fear of abandonment issues, etc. at this time, would increase a hardness of heart and I truly see that God is telling me not to cause my brother to stumble by a rash and tough love leaving of the home. <BR>God uses many things to teach us and I believe He is teaching me many things in this relationship. As Renae said, there may come a time, when she will have to leave the home for a period of time, but always such a move is for the betterment of the relationship, so that love remains to be able to work on reconcilliation.<P>Tough love worked well for me in other circumstances, so I know what you are talking about. It is especially helpful in addictive behaviors. We are told in the Word that those who marry will face many troubles in this life, that we have a God who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God, that our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all and that as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; [5] in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; [6] in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; [7] in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; [8] through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; [9] known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; [10] sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything, so that greatly encouraged; in all our troubles our joy knows no bounds.<P>See, we have so much to learn from our brothers in scripture...please don't take it to heart if we haven't immediately eliminated these men from our lives. They too are lost sheep.<P>Hugs my brother.<BR>

Renae & Sue B<P>Have either of you ever heard of Dr. Edwin Louis Cole? He is famous for his book,<BR>"Maximized Manhood". His wife also wrote a companion book entitled "The Total Woman".<P>I read this book through in 24 hours and wept openly like a baby as the truths contained therein hit me so hard. I then re-read the book a second time a week later.<P>I think this book ought to be required reading for any man who intends to marry.<P>I will not back off of my conviction to either of you that Renae is in a very, serious co-dependent relationship.<P>Her husband is insecure, possessive, controlling and co-dependent upon her; while Renae is what is called the 'enabler'. She continues to 'enable' her husband to continue his behavior patterns.<P>I too, was co-dependent in the same manner and when my wife left me in Feb of 96, I nearly died. I transferred my co-dependence to friends and finally God got ahold of me and showed me I had better wake up and find my all in Him.<P>A man has absolutely no right to look to his wife for security, happiness, worth/value and fulfillment. Even tho' the wife will certainly be used to meet certain needs, a man's security has to be rock solid in Jesus!<P>When a man, like Renae's husband, who is the worst case scenario, because he is masking the real issues with 'religion' and 'performance'.....continues to dominate, control, preach, abuse etc/etc.....he is a destructive force to his wife.<P>I too, was the storm instead of being the 'refuge from the storm' in my marriage.<P>Submission is mutual! Ephesians 5:21 says we are to submit one to another out of fear and reverence for Christ. This is talking about husband's/wive's.<P>I personally believe that a 'woman' is stronger than a man in EVERY area except physically.<P>That's right! Women would make better heads of homes because they are more spiritual, more organized and most of the time have more wisdom.<P>However, God has a sense of humor in that he made the man the 'head', not because he was more qualified...but actually, less qualified.<P>God intended this would keep the man, broken, humble and on his face before the Lord asking for grace/strength to be the husband/lover/father that only God could make him.<P>On the other hand, God tells the woman, who is more qualified, that she must submit to her husband. This is intended to keep the woman humble. Sort of like working for someone, when you know more than they do.<P>When change comes, it must come first from the head (man). Too many men (like me) say "when my wife submits to me, when my kids obey me, etc/etc...then I will change".<P>No, when God gets ready to put a home back in Divine Order, He will always start with the man, not the woman!<P>He will crush and break this man, or rather the things that are destroying the man, until the man falls flat on his face; broken, humble, contrite and cries out to the Lord in his weakness and inability to become the man God intended him to be.<P>I'm not just speaking out of my head or book-learning...I am talking out of my own experience of 33-1/2 years of marriage that ended this March.<P>This is why I am tough on men because I feel when a marriage fails and/or is in trouble; 99.9% of the time it is ALWAYS the man's fault.<P>Poor Eve has really taken a 'bad rap' because even the Bible says "the WOMAN, not the MAN was deceived".<P>However, when God came down in the Garden, who did He call into accountability?<P>He didn't say "Eve, where art thou?" - No,<BR>He said "Adam, where art thou" - He called the man into accountability!<P>Renae's husband is desperately hanging on, clinging like a vine, fearful, insecure, co-dependent, dominating, controlling, abusive and the longer Renae 'enables' him, the worse he will get.<P>I will not say "THUS SAITH THE LORD" on this; but I will almost say it that "I do not believe Renae's marriage will ever come together with them both under the same roof".<P>It will take a period of separation for him to face himself. This is why I have said, it's for 'his good' more than Renae's.<P>No, separation and divorce are NOT the same, in fact....I see many positives about separation......but again, I am speaking from my own experience.<P>If my wife hadn't left me...I would not be the man I am today....I even thanked her many times for leaving me and what it did for me, in me.....I was just saddened that she never came back and our marriage ended on March 14th of this year after nearly 33-1/2 years.<P>I'm sorry, but I see no fruit of Renae's husband loving her as Christ loved the church. I do not see any fruit of Renae being nourished/nutured by her husband.<P>In fact, I see Renae as a green plant that is withered and at the point of death (internally).<P>My flesh would like to take her husband by the throat and slap him silly and tell him what a #$@#$& fool he is.<P>I'm sorry, but most men are 'jerks' and don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain.<BR>Men are either macho pigs or wimpy wet-noodles.<P>I'm sorry, but Renae's husband shows no signs of brokeness, contriteness or humility. He continually blames Renae, while claiming he is ok. God hates this....PRIDE!<P>In the Body of Christ, there are 2 types of anointing: a "Mercy" anointing and a "Bold" anointing. Guess I have the 'bold' anointing, we need both to keep in balance.<P>This is why I say sometimes the answer is 'Tough Love'.<P>Thank you for letting me share, but as you can see, I do not back down from my stand concerning Renae's situation. Yes, God does work differently in each scenario, but Renae has NO SCRIPTURAL OBLIGATION to remain in the abuse she is experiencing.<P>[censored] from Texas

SueB, [censored], and Karenna, <P>Your posts have been so helpful! All of what you say is true for me: it is both "stay" and "get out"... that's what's so hard about it! I am just cautious right now & weighing the potential consequences of both.<BR> <BR>Ladies, I had e-mailed [censored] in the past so he knows more specific circumstances I have faced with H--that's why he talks "get out", besides from his own experiences. <P>The MB seminar this past weekend was great, except for the fact that H backed out of going at the last minute!!!!! H said he already knows everything Harley will say and that it isn't going to do me any good when I'm locked in my view of him & the relationship. <P>H was extremely touchy/angry all day Friday, then while I was at the evening MB seminar, H's dad & brother got into an argument and asked H to intervene....which stirred him up more. When I got home, he waited until I had gone to bed, then stormed in, became very verbally abusive, started grabbing for me...I ran into a room and locked the door.<P>Saturday eve. from the moment I got home after the seminar, H was MEAN! He demanded to know what the seminar was about--had I learned anything to fix me. He was mad when I couldn't think at first how to answer him. Seemly out of nowhere he started angrily preaching his "anti-emotions theology", completely opposite of what Harley taught!!! GRRRRRR!!!!! He was very explosive!!!!!.....<P>He demanded we talk,then proceeded to dump a bunch of false judgments on me. H complained about the poor counseling we've had with pastor & counselor. He's mad at what he perceives to be all "lies" I told to them. He says all of it is making his heart hard and they don't care. They polarize us, H says, then they won't let us come back for three weeks to resolve it!!! Pastor gives out these generalities that don't help. H said it all makes him want to divorce and get me out of his life ASAP! He said, we'll do it without lawyers, we will have joint custody of the kids, we will soon talk of how to divide things and where I'll live because he's staying in this house. He says that his life would be much better without me. <P>After he spilled out all of this frustration, I spoke an answer that I'm sure I never thought up. The boldness was completely unlike my own personality. I had this awesome sense of God with me... I am convinced He came to my defense!! H was stunned, had nothing to say, hung his head, and I safely left the room. I don't understand it. <P>At the end of the seminar, I got a chance to talk with Dr. Harley personally, telling him a little of what I deal with. <P>Today H was verbally abusive, angry, & controlling again. Again, I had the right words & he was stunned. But I really pray that I can be set free to leave after the holidays, that God will help me go on with the separation. I now look forward to it. Maybe H won't fight me on it now.<P>I Hope you all have a good week!!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited November 20, 2000).]

Renae:<P>I received your e-mail request to post it on your thread, I did respond. <P>However, I see you were able to post this here as you had e-mailed me.<P>Oh Renae, I can't even fathom a man going to church and coming home in a rage like this.<P>As I have mentioned earlier, the true sign of Christian Maturity is when a man begins to take responsibility for his actions and stops blaming everyone/everything else.<P>Guess your H hasn't come to this point yet as you are making it very easy on him to continue to dump on and rail at you and blame you for his dysfunctionality.<P>I really pray you can leave ASAP.....thanks for the update.<P>Your friend/brother in Christ from Texas<P>[censored]

I had a long talk with Counselor yesterday afternoon, telling her more details to see a fuller picture and evaluate my thinking, actions, responses to be sure I'm operating according to scripture and to consider what else to do. She thinks I have acted remarkably well and Biblically toward H in the various circumstances.<P>Where I'm sinking is drifting back to not reading my Bible, not exercising, missing church (some due to children's illness).<BR>I was attending a "grace community" church, but am losing interest. H won't let me get involved there, form relationships, etc. Also, when I don't have intimacy with H and things are so crazy here, it is hard to reach out to others in happy, meaningful ways... But I set up plans to meet some old friends soon; hopefully I will come out of my shell.<P>Counselor is only ok with leaving when he's bad but coming back. I told how he blocks the door, etc. so I have trouble getting away at those times. I explained the chaos of our house situation and H isn't letting things get better, etc. I told her of a recent incident, how he treated the kids, how they are affected by everything...I told her that the good things God helps me say to him don't seem to have any lasting effect. Still, she did not advise leaving permanently.<P>I believe I need to leave after the holidays.<BR>Things are so busy now...hope I can keep up with it all and avoid H as much as possible.<BR>I think Counselor has done all she can do. My nerves can't take anymore. <P>Prayers needed that I can get through the holidays, find employment & place to live and get moved without H's harrassment!!!!!!! <P>Thank you all greatly for the support you've been! Many hugs to you!!!<BR>

Renae:<P>I can not emphasize the necessity for you to find another counselor....this one is not doing you any good.<P>She (or he?) has no right to counsel you in the manner they have.<P>Hebrews 1:1 tells us that God has spoken to us by His Son Jesus Christ in these last days, whereas in times past (Old Testament) He spoke to us thru the Prophets.<P>In other words, you can hear from the Holy Spirit for YOURSELF! You need to follow your heart.<P>No one says you were leaving your H permanently....we're talking of separation only WHICH IS NOT DIVORCE!<P>When you share things like "my husband won't let me get involved in the Grace Community Church, relationships etc..." I wonder what kind of 'demonic stronghold' this man has over you.<P>Oh Renae, Renae...my precious sister in Christ......you have gone more than the 2d mile...you have gone far beyond anything God would expect you too.<P>Please get away from this man at any cost and please find another counselor. It sounds to me like this counselor is bringing nothing but confusion to you and you DO NOT need her <BR>(or his?) Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for whatever actions you decide to take.<P>Please...stay in touch!<P>KARENNA & SUE B - Help! Where are you? What have you got to say about this mess?<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored],<BR>The reasons H doesn't want me involved in that grace church:<P>1. They don't use the KJV. H says NIV comes from bad manuscripts, leaves out the Trinity, etc.<BR>2. When H was in grief, the kids & I went to a small church (where I sang in the choir, worship team, etc.), someone there (I don't know for sure who) gossiped to a member of H's church that I was attending alone & likely that H & I were having problems). This member questioned H's dad about us.....and H was furious toward me!!!!! H doesn't want any more gossip to spread.<P>You wrote: "No one says you were leaving your H permanently....we're talking of separation<BR>only WHICH IS NOT DIVORCE!" [censored], given how H talked on Saturday--says he's not willing to separate but only divorce now-- this is what I mean.<P>Gotta go....H is home.<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited November 22, 2000).]

Renae, Sounds like you are still in a bit of denial about the abuse and harassment, and the effect on your children. I am so glad that you have finally learned how to stand up to him and call him accountable for his crimes. And make no mistake. These are not just "sins" but CRIMES he has committed. In my state he could have been sent to jail for some of the things he has put you through. DO NOT JUST LEAVE YOUR GIRLS TO HIS POSSESSION.<P>Why don't you get help now? There are many resources out there. Other churches have social services that might be of great benefit to you at this time. The secular charitable community, the legal community, the county, city and state agencies of government all may offer supports you could take advantage of right now. <P>I can hear your staunch self-sufficiency in about 25% of your posts. You do not want help from anything or anyone. Renae, you are stuck. I don't want you to get hurt any more. I don't want your girls to be damaged. They would be benefited by seeing that there is real support out there for YOU. Their father has twisted their outlooks and screwed their perspectives on the world, men, families, women, marriage, justice, righteousness, ministry, honor and probably just about every virtue and character trait you could name. Let's show them that the world can be a compassionate place!<P>So LEAVE already. Let him file for divorce if that is what he wants to do. You don't have to cooperate at all. But if he harasses you in ANY WAY at all, go get a nice tight and tough restraining order on him. And make sure you enforce it until he has completed his domestic violence batterers workshops, anger management classes, parenting classes, and has proven to you that he has fully repented in his heart, mind and habits.<P>So go get a volunteer lawyer who will help you get whatever protective orders you need. You will also need temporary orders regarding property and support. Get yourself a decent, honest psychotherapist who isn't Kow-Tow-ing to an ideology more than ministering to the actual needs of her client.<P>Renae, you have done your time.. You have earned your exit. Now make a clean, but graceful, separation. Use whatever specialists you need to use. Accountants, attorneys, therapists, spiritually guided pastors, social workers, teachers, doctors etc. may be needed at different points in time. Fear not! Don't try to be an island.<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Hi friends!<P>This weekend I skimmed through the book Christian Men Who Hate Women. All the stuff about shame, codependency, etc. I have already traveled through in other books/materials and have done the emotional work inside myself. But the explanation of "Christian misogyny" as Dr. Margaret Rinck describes, is such an eye-opener for me! This book, combined with Harley's seminar, tied everything together for me in a way nothing else has. <P>"Misogyny" fits H!!!!..... from spiritually abusing/manipulating me to marry him using "God's will", to all the years of demanding submission, accusing me of being rebellious if I'm not exactly as he wants, controlling, humiliating, physical/sexual misuse, constant shaming, blaming, projection, angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments,etc.!! Wow!!! <P>[censored], I was the codependent from the law-based religiousness of my dad and his domination of me. I was obedient, a pleaser, helpless, identityless. I recovered alot during college years, became my own person but not enough, apparently. After college Dad kept me home 6 months, which caused me to deteriorate. I broke connection with my dad, and was gaining ground, but then H entered my life!! I was doomed to marry this misogynist/narcissist who again dominated religiously and emotionally, charmed me, then turned on me after the wedding into the shame-sick, abusive monster he really was. <P>Like the woman who enables her alcoholic husband by adjusting to his dysfunctions, I have done the same to my misogynist/narcistic/abusive husband. I let myself become codependent/controlled, sunk into helplessness living with his dysfunctions.<P>It has been a long road to the health I have now, but now it is time to drop the other codependent behavior--stop focusing on fixing H and do what is right for me and the kids to get out of this abuse! <P>Rinck talked of H's denial, and I can see it is not going to change while I am here to abuse. Since I detached from him emotionally, he just gets his joy with the kids. He needs to be alone and face himself. <P>I am convinced, both H and I will not get healthy by being together. <P>When H approached me this weekend to again force his perception of our life on me, I just knew, this is it. He will not wake up 'til I'm out. In a sense, he is right--I am the problem, but I am the problem because I haven't left him yet. I need to leave...<BR>and I must as soon as Dec 25th holiday is over. This is enough. <P>I know now! Thanks, friends!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Renae<P>

Renae:<P>Praise the Lord! I am soooooooo encouraged by your latest post and to quote you "husband will be better off alone, by himself to face himself".<P>You are right in that YOU have been the problem, but only in the sense that because you have stayed with him as his emotional, verbal and physical (?) punching bag, you have enabled his continuing, sick behavior.<P>Oh boy, that makes me sick about those that fall down and worship the KJV of the Bible. I have been involved with those types. They are very legalistic/religious and to me almost 'cultish'.<P>I'm sorry, but there are better translations than the KJV which was translated from poor manuscripts. I have used the Amplified Version for the past 18+ years, although I still refer to the KJV.<P>The KJV version 'veils' much of the truth the Holy Spirit was trying to express...that is why it is good to use the Amplified version + a good concordance to look up original Greek/Hebrew words.<P>I'm with Karenna, let him file divorce if he wishes...you do not have to do a thing but leave.<P>Please seriously heed what Karenna wrote to you, I felt she had some real wisdom...<P>I hope you know Renae, that we are BOTH on your side and only want your best. You have truly earned your way out of the relationship in going the 2d, 3d and 4th mile with your husband.<P>Please keep us updated...e-mail me if you wish.<P>[censored] from Texas

H came to me before noon, asking to talk. He thinks he's asking, but I have no choice. I can't say no. I can't stop him. I can't carry on a discussion. He wants to preach at me. He's angrily scowling at me while plugging his ears so he doesn't have to hear me answer his terrible accusations. He will not stop when he wants to speak his mind and dump his emotional garbage! <BR> <BR>As Rinck's book says, the Misogynist is out to make the wife believe that her perceptions are all wrong and she's the whole problem, she's rebellious, she's the one who is crazy, mentally distorted, even unsaved!!....while at the same time, he's proclaiming that nothing is wrong with him at all, that he is the Godly one that God put in her life to set her straight, and my! how patient he has been with the likes of me!! (GRRRRR!!!) He did this to me today!!!!!! He says he's seen no fruit that I've ever been saved!!!!!! Woe! That's going too far!!! How far will he stoop to destroy me????? He also tells me that everything I said at counseling is a lie!!! This is what I keep dealing with!!! I can't take it anymore!!....<P>Recently, before Harley's seminar, then again when I got home from the seminar, and then today again he's been talking of how dumb women (including me)are. Since mostly women voted for Gore, this is proof, he says!! H says women only go by their feelings (no facts), and that therefore they need men to rule over them and make decisions for them. He says God meant for women to follow the man in blind trust. (I told Dr. Harley what H said, and I am sure he didn't believe me! But Dr. Harley, he keeps repeating himself!!--I know it is shocking!!)<P>Can you believe this?!!! I truly believe only God can set him straight!!!<P>

Renae:<P>Even the Lord said (not sure of exact address); "......he, that being often reporved, hardeneth his neck shall soon be cut off and that without remedy"<P>Your husband is completely deceived and being driven by a demonic 'religious' spirit (the worst kind).......the time for dialogue with him is over!<P>Renae...leave, even before the holidays, if possible.<P>I have also been on the receiving end of my ex-wife telling me that "I showed no fruit of the Spirit and that I wasn't saved and that I was demon possessed and the biggest deceiver that ever lived".<P>Remember, you can not change how people think or view you.......you need to pray this prayer to the Lord:<P>"Lord, you know I have done everything possible to make my marriage work but I have hit a brick wall. Lord, I place my husband and this marriage in YOUR HANDS from this moment on....I will do nothing, say nothing and allow you complete control...."<P>Of course....you can put it in your own words.<P>We're here for you my friend!<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored], you are right about him hardening his neck and being soon cut off. It is a terrible thing, but hopefully he will wake up. <P>It is just so shocking that the one man who was supposed to love me most is the one person in all the world who treats me with the most hatred and knows me the least! Nobody, to my knowledge,has ever expressed such disgust for me! In fact, quite the opposite... over the years I have been complimented with much respect for my spirituality, personality, depth of understanding, patience/gentleness/love to others, creativity, smile, positive outlook, etc. H cannot understand the love and help I have given him for years with little in return--maybe when I'm gone he will think.....<P>Yes, I will leave as soon as I can....<P>I told Dr. Harley that I confronted H before a pastor...He said that was very bold.<BR>But, friends, to leave is even harder!... I am not a bold person...God, make a path through the Red Sea for me...Deliver me from evil!<BR>