Oh my!! I had to bring my daughter something...I was in a rush to meet her in between classes. But when I came into the school, H's preacher was coming out of his office and we met, greeted each other and shook hands, though both of us were obviously needing to keep our paces going separate directions....yet strangely when I was already several yards down the hall, he suddenly stopped and called to me, "How are you, young lady??" (I got the feeling he really was concerned, not the usual polite question) Are you holding everything together alright?" I stopped, shocked at being asked that, looked his direction briefly and responded "okay, doing the best I can." Did Counselor's pastor tell him what's going on? Is Counselor advising me to go to him since he already knows? ... I'm feeling miserable like I lied to him, as I didn't answer him with the whole truth. Is Counselor right that I should contact him and tell him??? Did this happen today to move me toward doing so? I know it wasn't the time nor place now to get into how I REALLY am doing. Everybody in the hall would have heard. Oh God, what do I do now????<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 11, 2000).]

Renae:<P>Good to hear from you again. I do believe in 'Divine Appointments' and perhaps meeting his Pastor was one.<P>Also, I have no respect for your counselor who is obviously in a different zip code than you are...because from what I got out of her e-mail is...'stay with your husband, continue to take the abuse, love him because you are supposed to love your enemies and maybe someday he will see that he is sinning'.<P>As you noted, no encouragement to separate. Well, I feel some of the counsel you have received here on MB is far better than this counselor.<P>Bottom line Renae, you have to follow your heart and ask yourself....how long are you willing to stay and continue to enable his sick behavior?<P>Please don't stay away so long and also, feel free to e-mail me if you want to vent or share anything you don't feel comfortable sharing here.<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored], yes, she's in a different zip code!!...especially saying "ignore it" when he angrily told me to leave the house!! The point is, he's mad that I brought him to accountability at counseling...so, in issueing this threat to go that instant with no place to go....purpose is (1) to punish me for as he perceives wrongly confronting and exposing him & his sin, and (2) manipulate me to get back under his control by threatening my security of having a home here. <P>It is emotional abuse!! I shouldn't ignore it! He should be called in to her pastor immediately and be held accountable for every controlling, manipulating, abusive thing he does and says toward me and the kids from this point and on!!!!! I'm done excusing it away, ignoring it....while he runs off feeling great power and I'm always hurting!! He should be told they are sick power games, misusing the husband authority God gave him and abusing me. He need to be told such behavior or words are unacceptable in marriage to someone you're supposed to love and cherish!!! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 11, 2000).]

UGH!!!!!!....Just before I left to get the kids from school, H started picking on me.<BR>Then he turns around and blames me for starting it! He accused me of starting an argument!!! Then he cut me down again for going to counseling to attack him instead of being a nice person willing to compromise and have a nice marriage. I said, there is no compromise with sin!... The purpose of going was to confront the pattern of sin you do toward me according to Matt. 18:15-19, then you're supposed to repent and agree to change so there can be a marriage! No, he said, you are the whole problem! You have a mental disorder!!!!!!!!<P>Can you believe this?????!!!!!!! He says I have a mental disorder?????.....<BR>Thank God I have recently read Margaret Rinck's book--she says he has a mental disorder!! <P>He said because I upset him so much with the counseling, now I need to work harder to help him catch up!! (OH, NO!!... <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 11, 2000).]

When I thought of H's pastor's question to me yesterday, I think for sure he "knows", having been informed what's going on.<P>Second, In his question "Are you holding everything up alright?" is the implication that I'm supposed to be holding everything up, huh? It's like being told to submit some more, turn the other cheek, keep giving the soft answer, ignore it, minimize it, etc.!! It's like all the responsibility is on the abused one who is already feeling powerless!! What if I had been open at that point and said, no, I can't hold it up anymore? What would he have said or done? What is the church's responsibility when they know an abusive marriage is going on? What should H's church be doing to help me and H and the kids? If he does ask again about me, what should I say? what do I ask for? <P>How long has this pastor known? Is the church pretending it doesn't exist? hoping it will all go away on its own? Is their work of evangelism all that matters? Isn't being a Christian first about having healthy relationships with others according to Scripture? Where is church instruction and discipline in this?<P>And what's wrong with all the Christians I've contacted so far for help, especially the counselors/pastors? They either tell you to leave the relationship immediately (before I understood all that was going on and implications of my decision) and provide no understanding that if a wife separates, what is necessary for reconcilliation, etc....or they advise on the opposite extreme of saying stay forever no matter how bad it gets because separation and divorce are bad!<BR>In either case, there's no instruction and support for that inbetween phase when you need instruction, support, prayer, and are trying to gain strength, set boundaries, etc.<BR>Praise God for this wonderful internet site and friends here, but where is the local church in this battle??? <P>Why is God showing me all of this? What am I supposed to do with all I've learned?<P>By the way, H came to me last night and said since the counseling, he's even more set in his own perception! Oh no! He told me I need to compromise my position and work things out. UGH!!!!!!!! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 12, 2000).]

Renae:<P>Please go to the Emotional Needs board (listed first) and read the thread "ARE MEN WHAT'S WRONG WITH MARRIAGE?"<P>There are some real nuggets there, from a man and I posted a reply as well. If there is anyway, your husband needs to read this, all though it will probably only anger him more.<P>[censored] from Texas

Hi my sister,<P>Just finished reading the book you read about Christian men who hate women. Very insightful and I suspect right on target for both our husbands.<P>So, my question is, why are you arguing with this guy? He doesn't give a rip about your feelings, what you think or anything else about you, only that you completely obey his every whim and demand with proper respect as he feels due. The book was clear what we needed to do in the situation. You have author permission to reprint appendix E and the figure 1 page to find a therapist who is knowledgeable in this area and who is willing to work with you alone to strengthen you.<P>The book was also clear that more often than not if we leave our husbands, they will divorce us rather than dig into their own painful emotions to get healthy. That is a choice they make. We are not in control of that. We are accountable to God though for our responses and you especially are responsible for those children or you will be raising up children who hate as well.<P>This book was key for me. I have been in codependent relationships via alcoholism and been through codependency work. I knew this felt similar but couldn't make the connection since alcohol/drugs were not involved, though pornography has been an issue. Now this all clicks for me. <P>I am back to redoing the step 4 in the 12 step stuff and I imagine my marriage will be by the wayside. I will grief the loss of coupleness and trust in the one who is so trustworthy. Quit rationalizing Renae and quit trying to educate him. He will never admit to this. As the author said, her own therapy groups for husbands has a title like "husbands who give and give and the women who are angry with them". That is how they see themselves and we are not going to change that.<P>You are welcome to email me. You can get an account via <A HREF="http://www.mail.com" TARGET=_blank>www.mail.com</A> on your browser so that no mail is readable from your home without knowing the password at mail.com. That might be the safest for you.

Thanks again, [censored]...I'll go over there right now....

Hi, Renae. I've managed to read through your ENTIRE thread while at work the other day and I must say I was very shocked. How can you stand to be in a situation like this? I'm only asking you because my mother did the same thing to me. I resent her even now because of what she did. <P>I see you have kids. Do you think your kids are happy about you hurting all the time? You can't tell me that you're happy being like this because you're not. I don't think that anyone is telling you that you have to divorce your husband, but you have kids to protect. Your kids are watching everything that's going on between your husband and you. If you have son(s), then they're learning the inappropriate way to treat their future wives and if you have daugther(s), they're learning from you to if their future husbands were to treat them the way your husband treats you that they should "submit" and "take" it.<P>Please don't think that I'm angry at you. No, it's not your fault that your husband is this way, but at the same time, you're not helping you, your children, or your husband by remaining in an abusive situation. You see, I also used to watch my mother being abused. I used to wonder why in the world she wouldn't take us (my brother and I) away from my father. I still don't understand it now and I bet your children don't understand why you still take this abuse off of your husband. This is causing your children to suffer because they see you suffering.<P>May I ask what is holding you up that you can't separate from your husband for awhile for you and your children's safety? Again, I'm not angry with you, I'm just wondering why you haven't separated from him (notice I didn't say divorce) yet. <P>I notice you list instances where he's put his hands on you. Why are you still there? What's going to happen if he punches you one day or kicks you or does something like that to one of your children? Will you leave then or will you wait? <P>I'm very worried about you, Renae. I'm worried about you and your children and praying that one day you make it out of there safely.<P>Please, Renae, I'm begging you not to wait any longer. Please, Renae, I don't want something bad to happen to you and your children.<P>Take care,<BR>Miaka<p>[This message has been edited by yuki miaka (edited December 12, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you are unsafe, get away and call the police, go to a shelter, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is what your counselor wrote you.<P>Do it this week. Any physical acts in the last 30 days should be sufficient legal grounds to get a court restraining order. RENAE: YOU ARE UNSAFE!!! As I recall from this thread, you do have enough of those to get this. You do not have to be in immediate danger of a broken bone or gunshot wound to be UNSAFE. Is that what you are waiting for.<P>Maybe not an arrest unless it happens again. Go to court and get a kick out order so you and the kids can get BACK in the house.<P>Go to the pastor you saw. Make your own appointment and pour your heart out. You saw some really decent compassion there. Do it for yourself.<P>Please.<P>I'm praying, "Let there not be a next time!"<P>But I don't think you are very strong, so next time (and I just hope you are not seriously hurt) don't cover up. Even if he "just" grabs your arm roughly, or pulls your hair, or pushes you, or blocks your movements, CALL THE POLICE. Or get out and then call the police. <P>How many times can I say this? He is a sick criminal. For his own soul's sake, CALL HIM ON IT in a way that will get his attention. <P>He may never buy into the message, but don't you have to wake him up to really make him accountable to himself? He can still refuse, but it will be to his own loss, not yours. If you fail in your role and he is not called to repentance, will that be your sin?

Or are you going to pull a 180 on us too and tell us every word was a lie? (See <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/002487.html" TARGET=_blank>Setting the Record Straight</A>)

SueB, thanks for your words. I'm glad the book was as helpful to you as to me. I pray the Lord will guide us each step ahead in this process.... I believe I have done all I can do with this, and there is peace in that.<P>Yuki Miaka, thank you for taking the time to review my threads here and responding with your advice. Yours and Karenna's points are important ones, that I have been giving consideration to, though I know I am not acting fast enough. <P>Karenna, I thank God that I am too strong now to do a 180! For every time of doubt through the years, there have been numerous confirmations that my analysis of H is correct. Every counselor has also said H is a controller and abusive on all fronts (spiritually, mentally, emotionally, etc.) He tries forcefully to change my perception of him and our relationship, but I am set and this frustrates him. <P>Why haven't I left yet?<BR>(1) I needed numerous confirmations to prove that my analysis of H was correct. I have that settled now.<BR>(2) I needed to know I tried everything to "fix" this. My last effort was Harley's seminar. There were couples who flew in for help from other states, willing to learn; while my H couldn't drive 10 minutes to the seminar to save our marriage because he thinks he doesn't have a problem!! Even when I said let's learn together to have a better marriage (not judge him as the whole problem), he still refuses to get help.<BR>(3) I needed to be sure I had followed all scriptural instruction in dealing with this situation (Matt. 18:15-19), to confront sinful patterns and bring repentance & change. etc. H denies his patterns to Counselor and her pastor, so there's nothing else I can do.<BR>(4) I need closure on our business, taxes, sorting things, etc so I can go on to get a separate life. I needed to fulfill responsibilities & could not instantly walk away from this. After Christmas I should be able to leave. H's elderly dad, especially, looks to me for help, and I want to do that before he knows I'm leaving H. He's been very dear to me.<BR>(5) I did not want to pull the kids away from their father without being sure it is the thing to do. They love him dearly.<BR>(6)Needing to feel strong enough to face the world again alone, face not being a couple anymore. I am not a naturally independent woman and I've been afraid. Fighting the helplessness, powerlessness, H has put on me through his domination and forced codependency on me<BR>(7)Worried about re-entering a job after 14 years out of workforce, etc.<BR>(8)Not ready to face the shame from parents and the damage to my reputation & Christian testimony when they all hear of this failed marriage. Want to spend one last Christmas with H's relatives and mine for the kids, myself, and all of them before this break. <BR>(9) Right now coming to grips with the loss of who H was to me--a man I met, dearly loved, and repected so highly that I would trust my whole life to (before I knew this bad emotional side). We've had our really cute times....(tears running down my cheeks). I will miss that. You say "criminal"?...yes...but no. He is a hurting, wounded child. Somebody must have really abused him for him to act as he does. I'm mad that the bondage that holds him doesn't break. I wish I could have loved him enough to heal that. <P>(10)I said that I married to have a marriage and I'm not willing to quit! I never thought separation or divorce was an answer to relationship problems. I would fight for a solution at any cost. Now to realize I can't do it alone without H's cooperation.... <BR>And worse, he thinks we really have a marriage, that he is fine, etc.!!!... <BR>(11) People say H has broken the covenant of marriage many times over. But that was between God, H, and I. There is still the part I promised God. What do I do with that?<BR>I don't know. I invested my whole soul into this, Karenna. This is hard to let go of.<P>But I will leave soon, I think... the time seems to be coming. There is no other way to go but forward. Our daughters are so precious and I know this will hurt but they will understand--they already do. They tell me I'm their best friend, and their hugs are priceless. They are depending on me to carry us out. I must go. God help us!!!!!<BR>This is so hard!! Father, forgive H, he knows not what he does!!! <BR> <P>

A former college roommate & I went to a beautiful piano concert last night. I was worried I wouldn't be good company, but she seemed eager to go with me. She could not have known what is going on with me, but it wasn't long after we started driving, that she poured out in venting fashion, her own painful relationship. Because of what I've been through, I could offer her knowledge, compassion, and grace from what God has given me.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 13, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ( not judge him as the whole problem )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He isn't the whole problem. Didn't you read the entire book? Spouses are part of the problem as well in that we allow the abuse to continue.<P>You have done what you can while remianing in the home, now it is time to remove your family out of the home so that the next step towards healing can occur. No one is telling you to quit. We are saying "get safe". Get strong as the book talks about. Deal with your stuff.<P>Karenna, I did finally get Passionate Marriage and I am impressed at the author's style. I like that he sticks to issues today rather than the go back to the past jazz.

I never said get a divorce. Just go into Plan B. You may need to file something legal for protection of your children's rights, and your own, but that does not have to be a divorce. Perhaps your state has options short of Legal Separation too. I don't know.<P>This kind of escape does not intend to throw out your marriage. But he may do it on his own anyway, and you may change your mind.<P>SueB<P>That is a really meaty book. Choice tidbits in every chapter. Glad you are liking it. Would you say it resembles Plan A graduate school?<p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited December 13, 2000).]

Hard to say if it iis like Graduate school Plan A at this point. As I said H fits the criteria for hating women as the oher book defines, which in some ways keeps me in withdrawal (nor exactly true-sometimes settimg boundaries gives me the feeling of being withdrawn) as a means for protection. Remember POJA is not in H vocabulary. I mainly am reading PM for myself, to understand myself better to deal with my own feeling issues. <P>H knows I am reading it, have told him it is a good read and different from other books and that he was welcome to read it if he desired, but that I was not going to push it down his throat. I am working on my step 4 of the 12 steps and it seems to be helping to take a closer look at myself.

What are each of the 12 steps? I know very little about 12-step programs. I'm sure I've seen them listed before, but it has been 15 years or more. Is step four anything like taking the log out of your own eye by any chance? (Just a wild guess.)

Karenna,<P>"Is step four anything like taking the log out of your own eye by any chance? (Just a wild guess.)" <P>GOOD ONE! That's a quote worth keepin', while reading about this chronically violating marital abuse.<P>Ragamuffin<P>I'll probably pay for that statement but I can't imagine standing by while children WATCH IT HAPPEN DAILY! Hope Renae gets a "sign from the heavens" soon!<BR>

Why are you still there?<P>Miaka

Besides answers I've already given to that question, another answer is that I struggle with what H's church teaches too....I've been there with him, you know, and they have a strong "anti-feelings" mentality. I mean, it is not always directly said there, but you just know even when asked "how are you" that you wouldn't be considered a mature Christian if you responded by crying on somebody's shoulder or if you said how you really feel or what you're really struggling with inside. "Anti-psychology" is preached as well, and these concepts like Harley's and others are sorta like psychology.....and H said to me recently, "so what good has all this psychology done for you and us?"....and I feel guilty, like am I straying from the Bible? Yet, I say to myself, but Harley and other's concepts regarding relationships are applications of lots of scripture too. Oh, this is so hard to explain....you have to be raised with it from parents as well as with H as I have, and you just know how confusing this is!!!!!<P>Anyway, I am confused how much to go by feelings when making this decision and how much principle, how much more to go on being "self-less" and staying here to help H and his elderly dad with work that's behind, what about what the kids need, etc...putting my needs and feelings last, you know???? <BR>Yet, I know when H married me, I deserve a marriage!!!!!!.....Oh, help me!! I am in such a struggle!!!