quote:<BR>YOU need to understand that FEELINGS are facts too. Treat the emotion you feel as a piece of information.<P>Yes, Karenna and SueB, that is a good point.<BR>I only wish I could operate that way.... Actually, it is one of the bigger problems between H and I, because he doesn't agree that feelings are facts and won't accept me talking about feelings as facts. He would just say that's my warped perception and I should crucify my feelings, while everything he says, of course is fact!!! That's why this is such a dead relationship, because there is no personal sharing of feelings that would cause us to grow personally and as a couple in emotional intimacy. He treats my feelings as being invalid.<P> <BR>

[censored], you have an interesting, different definition of codependency than I have thought of:<P>quote:<BR>Your husband is co-dependent on you and you have enabled him.<P>I thought the co-dependent IS the enabler!<BR>From Melody Beattie and other authors, I understood that the co-dependent person is the one who enables the abuser, alcoholic, addicted or otherwise dysfunctional spouse. So,I have considered myself as the co-dependent on H. But I think you are right also, that H is co-dependent back to me also, depending on me to keep him going on as he is in his dysfunctional behaviors, and he's mad now and more controlling because I don't want to keep doing that.<P>I have considered that H is probably co-dependent on his father also. I have seen him at times TOTALLY devastated when his performance met with disfavor or failure to his father. Or is this normal for a son to NEED this much approval from his father????<BR>H seems like he's on a treadmill of performance, pleasing his father. <P>Also, while it is necessary to do some caregiving for his elderly dad, H is like "married" to him and feels he has to be this way to make up for when his mother died 8 yrs ago. It seems I merely exist to help him with work and meet his needs at any given time, thus he's angry if I leave the house and he happens to decide during that time that he wants help with something. This isolates me from others because he expects me to be here almost all the time.<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 21, 2000).]

Co-dependent: Plays the PRIMARY role of the functional person and at the same time plays a secondary role as the dependent person with the objectively dependent person as the functional one in this secondary scenario. <P>The co-dependent has a SICK VESTED INTEREST in keeping the objectively dependent one down. <P>It is not just making excuses. It is desperately needing to be needed so badly that you sabotage any movement or effort of the partner to get well.<P>Often the primary relationship involves physical dependency, such as infancy, a disability, senility or alcoholism. <P>The secondary relationship is the deep emotional one - generally involving unspoken fears and issues that cut to the core of the soul.<P>Obviously, it takes two people to be co-dependent. Usually both individuals are emotionally and spiritually broken because unless the secondary relationship is unhealthy, we speak of it in glowing and positive terms such as INTERdependent. <P>And you will know a good relationship when you see it!

Renae:<P>Tis' true...it takes "two to tango" and it takes "two to make a co-dependent relationship".<P>The simplest definition of the term "co-dependency" I've ever heard is:<P>"an addiction to a person, thing or substance".<P>A wife who lives with an abusive husband or alcoholic husband and continues to suffer the abuse is co-dependent in the sense of being the 'enabler' that continues to allow the sick behavior.<P>I promise you, when the enabler is removed from said scenario, the other party will have to deal with harsh reality.<P>This is what I did...when my wife left, I transferred my 'addiction' to my spiritual friends and ruined several relationships until I got hold of the truth that my security was to ONLY BE IN JESUS.<P>When a person like me (and your husband) is getting free from being 'co-dependent', they will actually go through with-drawals. I can not tell you how many times, as I reached for the phone to call someone, my hand trembling, I knew I shouldn't.<P>When I learned to be alone and begin to find all of my happiness,joy and security in Jesus, I got delivered...but it is a process.<P>Your husband is violating a 'cardinal rule of communication' in that he is not 'validating' your feelings.<P>I'm sorry but your husband knows little or nothing about relationship and/or communication in marriage.<P>In closing, one of the most powerful truths I've ever read is: "A man's character is reflected in the countenance of his wife" (for good or bad) - Renae....what do you see when you look at yourself in the mirror?<P>Continuing to stand with you my friend.....<P>[censored] from Texas

Quote: "Your husband is violating a 'cardinal rule of communication' in that he is not 'validating' your feelings.... your husband knows little or nothing about relationship and/or communication in marriage...."<P>Yes, [censored], this is true. And I had to stop needing his validation of my feelings! I'm not going to get it from him. <P>It was quite an eye-opener today seeing H treat his dad the same way he does me, in demanding a certain action and allowing no discussion, comments, or questions about it.<BR>H expected immediate obedience! His dad had normal questions and comments to make before he felt comfortable with the action H was demanding. It was so helpful to see this with H and another person, when I'm not directly involved.<P>Margaret Rinck's book about "Christian misogyny" was so validating! The man she describes is the one I'm married to!<P>I need to get out so badly! Still counting the days til I can leave....<P> *****************************<BR>MERRY CHRISTMAS to you all! Thanks for being my supportive friends this past half of a year!!! I thank God for each one of you!!<BR>Hugs to you,<BR>Love,<BR>Renae<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 22, 2000).]

H's brother severely mistreated him last night and H told me it's been going on since H was a child. In some ways the behavior is similar to how H treats me (H doesn't see that!!) H is deciding to avoid his brother more, because he gets too hurt by it happening over and over again.<BR>Oh my!!!....Maybe I need to explain to H that this is how I feel about H!!!

Within the last hour, H is being terrible to me!!! I related to him the best I could...gave him the soft answers that would hopefully help to calm him, tried being silent at certain points without answering back hoping he'd speak and get the pressure out of his system and stop, I tried firm truthful answers, spoke my boundaries when he was starting to grab, push & shove, etc.... BUT, it just kept escalating. I feel I did the best I could to handle him, to ward off the attack, but it was awful.<P>Without getting into all the detail, I just know it is time to leave H as soon as I get through the Christmas holiday, and hopefully before New Year's Day.... There is nothing more I can do but give him over to God. He's a sick man.<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 25, 2000).]

Merry Christmas hon!<P>Don't you see his perfectionist garbage sailing through? The anxiety that everything is not perfect and the perception that if everything isn't perfect then someone is ging to make a comment and he will be embarassed....again and again as his background/childhood tapes have played over and over again? We can get understanding Renae but then we must still repond with wisdom and allow consequences for behavior s or allow the ones we love to experience their own feelings.<P>I would guess too since he shared with you something personal about his brother, he feels extremely vulnerable and vulnerability increases anxiety which some cover up with anger. The key to not enabling him in this is to calmly be assertive and empathetic. I think many wannabe perfectionists turn abusive in an attempt to control their imperfections, that is, if everything around them appears perfect, then their own flaws don't show up as much. <P>Remember the original birthday party was in a stable, the child was wrapped in swaddling clothes, which, my understanding is that swaddling was the gauze-like material used to wrap a body in if perchance they died away from home. This material generally was wrapped many times around the waist. So the king of kings came into this world and was wrapped in burial cloth, significant that he come into this world to die for us in order to be reconciled with the Father. <P>It is important to let them feel the feelings Renae, to allow them their feelings but also to place boundaries on rage that impacts your safety. It is your responsibility to learn how to answer in a gentle way, things of truth, firm with limits...I can ask my H how I can support him while he goes through his grieving, but I clearly state that I am not reponsible for his feelings, that my desire is to stand beside him while he goes through this process, but it not to FIX the feelngs. I can say to him, "sounds like you are feeling such and such about..." and my H will probably provide a barrage of rash statements that are emotional, but I can also then say to him, "wow, that's a lot of feelings! What are you going to do about them so they don't feel so overwhelming to you." <P>Of course he wants me to assume responsibility and that isn't acceptable. You can ask him if the mess is truly what is bothering him and if so, tell him you are willing to tackle this part, which part is he willing to tackle? If he isn't willing to tackle any of it, then you simply say, "well it must not be bothering you that much then if you aren't willing to help fix the problem..." and you go do whatever it is that you feel needs done.<P>My H attempted to do the power/push thing only once Renae. I turned around and met him eye to eye with fists doubled and told him that he had better make it a good one because it would be the last one he would ever get. It really made me aware of how the boundaries book says that the only things happen to us that we allow. I was not going to allow him to pound on me and yet, I have allowed him to speak to me in less than respectful ways. <P>Since that time, I have been working on my heart, mouth and attitude in learning to be honest and respectful to my H, but clearly setting the limit regarding his gargage that comes out of his mouth. I tell him I choose nt to be around that and I walk away from it after teeling him that when he is ready to speak to me appropriately, I am more than willig to discuss the situation. I may turn up the stereo or the vacumn cleaner take a walk outside while I pray and calm myself down, but I am really seeing how I am sinning and I must take my own steps to not succumb to the same sins as he is doing.<P>I am seeing that the more afraid they are, the stupider the mistakes they make and I can feel empathy for their hurt and compassion for their pain, but the comforter is God and I am to support my H while he engages in his battles but I am not supposed to rescue him nor am I to fix him. <P>Focus on the babe today. Look for every moment that reminds you of the softness and sparkle of a sweet baby and relish it. Life is too short, make today the best one ever. And then tomorow the best one ever, etc. etc.

Hi everyone! How was your Christmas? Great, I hope!! <P>SueB, you have gained much wisdom from your own sufferings.....THANK YOU GREATLY for taking the time to share your insights!! You and I must have been on the computer at the same time thinking of each other!!! You must have read and responded to my original post, which I was editing! I wasn't sure my message was communicating clearly (written out of the emotional frustration with H that had just occurred), so I just deleted details in hopes of writing more later when I had time..... So if others who come here don't fully understand your response, it's because you saw my first post!<BR>God was so good to send you here at that moment, SueB, as I saw your post come on the board!!! Is God's timing amazing or what!!!<P>Anyway, time for detail:<P>It was really great to have my parents and brother here on Christmas Day!! H did not carry out his threat to destroy the day by bringing up the issue of our marriage. Thank God! Thanks for your prayers too, friends! I'm so glad I hung in here through the pain to let the kids enjoy this Christmas!!! My brother was as humorous as always. He and I had gone together financially to buy my parents a set of Bible teaching videos by someone they like alot and will listen to. Our prayer is that the Lord might bring them to the truth and reveal that for over 25 years they've been believing false doctrines!! <BR> <BR>The bad part, which SueB saw me post earlier, was late on Christmas Eve. H was terrible toward me. I was still working to get prepared for the celebration shortly before 11 p.m., and H launched a horrible attack!!!!<BR> <BR>I tried everything to ward off the attack, tried to calm him in saying things to relieve his pressure on things he didn't need to be pressured about (don't worry about the messes you didn't get time to clean up, as they know we aren't all moved into this house, have alot of business going on, they won't see your basement area, etc. The important thing is to enjoy everyone together, not the house, etc.)<BR> <BR>I tried to be silent at certain moments so as NOT to feed into his attempts to escalate things, yet at times I needed to talk firm on what the truth was that he was denying and verbally set my boundaries as he started angrily shoving, pushing,.... getting more physical in the attack . Suddenly he stomped off, took a kitchen chair from a couple yards away from me and angrily shoved it hard and fast at me. He had lost the control game & was mad.<BR> <BR>He claimed that he had never consented to my family coming here for Christmas, he didn't know they were coming, that I'm putting pressure on him in having it here, that I should call them and tell them not to come tomorrow, that I should get out of his house and life NOW!!! <BR> <BR>I tried to leave the room and he came after me and kept on and on acting out, verbally attacking, etc..... I tell you, it was fierce!!! <BR> <BR>For a long time, he was taking revenge against me for the counseling I put him through...."all the lies I told there"!!!! He says he's never done anything wrong and I'd better go back there and tell them so!!! <BR> <BR>H said I've been treating him bad all year, NO LOVE at all and then acting phony now for Christmas!!! (If only he realized how much grace and agape love he has gotten,for years inspite of himself!!!!!) How about how "nice" he was Christmas Day after treating me so abusively on Christmas Eve??? Who is phony???<BR> <BR>H accused me of "not preparing him for Christmas". (I'm always supposed to be responsible for his emotions, "get him in the mood", etc. while he does nothing to prepare himself, etc.) How he feels is my fault, he says. <BR> <BR>He claimed I quit the counseling because everything wasn't my way!! (Can you imagine that? Projection!!!) He had even told me before he was quitting because Pastor wasn't doing it his way! Now he says he was willing all along to keep going and still wants to continue! Has he forgotten that Pastor quit also because H is in denial and there's nothing more Pastor can do??? <BR> <BR>Even in all this that H was doing (verbally, pushing, etc), he was denying that he was doing anything abusive!! I'd say, this is what you just did or said, etc....and he would say no he didn't do that at all,or that I had it all wrong and it was like this ____.... a completely different self-justifying version. So, it's not just past events he conveniently "forgets" or "never did".....but right while it's happening, he denies he's doing it!!!!!<BR> <BR>I thank God for giving me very good responses to all of this, for keeping me calm but firm throughout....<BR> <BR>What this makes me realize right now is that when I have the truth, all this "garbage" H throws at me doesn't stand up! He can project the garbage on me by saying his problems are mine, he can deny the truth, he can even re-write history to defend himself..... but TRUTH does not change. God knows the way things really are. I finally told H, let God be judge between us then...., I don't need to waste time getting H to see what he refuses to see. The truth sets me free. I just say the truth and that's it. It really turns out that H's immaturity makes him the liar and so I can have peace at the spiritual level with God, though emotionally and mentally H pushes me beyond tolerable levels...... <BR> <BR>It is an intense battle when you're in the middle of it!!!<BR> <BR>The amazing thing is that Christmas Day went well here. I praise God for that!! H behaved himself, didn't bring anything up about me or us (that I heard, anyway), and he even seemed to have a fairly good time. I am so thankful that God helped me "hang on" here so the kids could enjoy this day. It was truly a beautiful Christmas!<P>I've been up since 3 a.m., though, now dealing with the emotional after-effects of how H was on the 24th!!....The pain hit and woke me up!....I know I must leave soon....<P> <P>

Hi Renae,<P><BR>When we are in the middle of the fog and H is so blinded, that is when I would say things such as "that was a push, that is abuse", the bible says love is kind, you are yelling, is that kind?", "love keeps no record of wrongs, what part of keeping no records of wrong are these comments about the past?" "if you are willing to continue counseling with pastor, make the appt. and let me know the day." Speaking the truth in love, a soft, firm matter of fact wording, just as Jesus did with the Samaritan woman at the well is how I am understanding we are to copy. <B>AND</B> too many words lose the effect. I don't mean this to be disrepsectful, but when you speak to your pet, you don't give them a rash of words, but clear concise statements, so, aren't our H as worthy of the same respect? The fewer words with clarity and to the point absorbs faster.<P>My H did the phony hug, hug, kiss, kiss in front of family as well and then was mega jerk in the bedroom, so I called him on it. Since we were at the in-laws home, I knew he wouldn't yell or come after me, so I told him I was leaving the room while he was acting this way and I finished getting all the Christmas dinner reparations completed. My routine is to make a big breakfast for my in-laws as a treat and when it was finished, I woke my H and told him breakfast was ready. <BR>I am trying to make my words and actions consistent 24 hours a day. Speaking the truth is difficult but I am giving my anxiey to the Lord and then saying what needs to be said. And actually, even though it is a frightening thing, I am feeling better about it. He frequently tells our daughters that they can choose to be happy or they can chose to be grumpy and I gave that back to him at one point. I reiterate constantly such things as how can I support you while you are going through this process of feeling your feelings? Of course his response is that I can DO what he says. I remind him that my job is to support him during this process and not to FIX him and that it is not honoring nor respecting his capabilities to fix things for him. <P><BR>I really have become aware of how many ways I have undermined him and contributed to his feelings of helplessness by doing everything for him, so I am stopping doing lots of things. It is a shock for him I think, but I also think he realizes that I am serious about the need for things to change or I will be moving. <P><BR>When he again becomes the accuser and makes comments about me "threatening to abandon him", I stick to the truth of what I believe God calls us to do and I clmly assert that back to him in a respectful way. I do believe it is better for me to live on a rooftop somewhere rather than be subjected to the constant drip, drip of his berations. I really see the importance of knowing the Word and being able to give a ready answer for what we believe, the focus being on ourselves and our accountability to the Lord for our thoughts, actions and words.<P><BR>At this point Renae, I don't believe it matters what your H does or says. Focus on you and the woman God would have you become. If Proverbs 31 is the ideal, how much can you glean by her actions? She wasn't a doormat. She wasn't some rude feminist either. She commanded respect by her actions and words. Your confidence is in the Lord and who you are in Him.<P><BR>When your husband makes a rude statement, instead of responding immeditely, repeat it back to him to make sure you heard correctly and to give yourself time to ask the Lord if any of it is true. The Holy Spirit will help you in this. If a part is true, confess it immediately and ask forgiveness. I am amazed at how fast the Lord is helping me apologize for responding inappropriately. Besides, it throws them off- <P><BR>Phil. 4:6 says I am confident that the good work God has begun in me will be perfected. Renae, you and I are given lots of chances to work on this. We just need to continue to pray for one another Renae.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited December 26, 2000).]

Renae:<P>Happy to hear you made it through Christmas. Guess I'm like Karenna in the sense of, why do you continue to allow your husband to physically assail and attack you? (pushing, shoving etc).<P>Anyway....what really hit me hard was what you said about your husband not realizing how much grace and agape love has been demonstrated towards him over the years.<P>I thought of my own situation, in the nearly 30 years we were married, all of the times my former wife demonstrated true agape, mercy and grace towards me. I really didn't see it or wake up until it was too late.<P>Guess I feel somewhat like Esau who it is said of: "he sought to regain his birth-right earnestly with tears....but to no avail". Too late!<P>I, too was emotionally, verbally and sexually abusive to my wife. We were both Christians, both ministers.....but all I had was alot of legalistic religion, driven by performance and had zero character or inner life.<P>I demonstrated the 'gifts' of the Spirit, but little or none of the 'fruit' of the Spirit. I was truly the 'letter of the law' without the Spirit.<P>Now, like the Psalmist David, I too can declare: "It has been good for me that I have been afflicted, for through it I have learned thy precepts". The word afflicted in the Hebrew means 'hurt'.<P>Over the past 5 years, I have and continue to experience Godly sorrow which produces repentance, while Worldy sorrow produces death.<P>Godly sorrow is when we are sorrow for what we do or why we did it, while Worldy Sorrow grieves only because it got caught.<P>I remember one day I was walking around my huge kitchen and praying, just after my wife left me in Feb of 1996. I remember removing my wrist watch from my left wrist and then taking my left fist and pounding and pounding the kitchen counter in anger...crying out WHY, WHY didn't I wake up before it was too late? Why did I let this happen?<P>Here is what the Lord showed me: If I had cried out "Why did she leave me?", this would have only been Worldly Sorrow...but when I cried out "Why, Why didn't I get help years ago....", this was Godly Sorrow that began producing repentance.<P>If I were only crying because she left, this would have been worldy sorrow which produces death....but I was crying because of WHY she left.<P>Oh Renae, I cry out for your husband to wake up. I remember just a few days before my deliverance in January of 1996 and a few days before my wife moved out.....someone told me (a total stranger who didn't know me or my circumstances); that "[censored], I sense in my spirit while you are trying to put fires out all around you, the problem is WITHIN you".<P>Ouch!<P>Renae, please permit me to be redundant and repeat myself again....."if/when you separate from him, it will be more for his sake and benefit than for yours".<P>Hang in there my sister....I am praying for you.<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored], that was a really, really nice post! Thanks for sharing.

SueB<P>"....you're welcome" - thanks for sharing that with me.<P>[censored] from Texas

Yes, [censored] a wonderful post!!! Lots of food for thought. Thanks to you,also, SueB.<P>The concept of "shame" has come to mind again, like there's more I need to understand about dealing with this issue in H and myself. I found the book Encountering Shame and Guilt by Daniel Green & Mel Lawrenz. It's for pastors, but helps me understand about myself, as well as understanding H more and how he needs to be ministered to by myself & others. I realize how he has imposed his shame unto me and evokes my own sense of shame and even tried to get Pastor to feel shame! I find I have to constantly ask to myself with each of H's attacks: is what he's saying true of me or is it his issue projected unto me? <P>The other point I picked up on is "Individuals who are hounded by imposed shame often experience either overdependence (me)or contradependence (my H)....both dependency styles involve difficulties with boundaries....imposed shame occurs through violation of boundaries, so the establishing of clear boundaries is essential in trying to resolve imposed shame." pages 120-121 <BR>Also resolve it by "experiencing relationships with opportunity for reconnection and shame resolution." p.124 <BR>But how can this be done when H isolates us??<BR>Like I can't form close relationships or he accuses me of gossip!!...<BR>I realize that I became "dependent" under my parents' religious shaming, got healthy in better relationships, then when I married H and kept taking on H's imposed shame, I got more and more dependent/helpless, unable to even think of escaping this. <P>On p. 122--"shame inhibits the awareness of other emotional reactions and decreases the ability to be creative, think abstractly, or solve problems....the pastor may observe that the counselee 'doesn't get it' or seems to be 'frozen'....emotion of shame appears to be interfering with the ability to understand."<BR>This is my H!!!....I think H's "denial" isn't done to be mean or deliberately trying to be immoral, but he's been living his shame so long he can't understand how far from normal he is and knows no other way to function and really can't see he's doing anything wrong! <BR>Sad, isn't it?<P>Another point: p. 128-129 "It is not uncommon for those who appear to have it all together and give so much to others to be driven by the pain of shame" This was stated after telling of a lady in a church ministry role. This, I think, was H's way in church ministry....driven by the pain of shame to perform, while others and me included, saw him from the outside as so "put together" because he could serve so much!! <P>The author speaks of a "shame-need bind" p. 128 "she had hidden her needs by telling others she was okay and minimizing her needs" I think H's church type puts people in this kind of dilemma. <P>H just came to me, angry as can be at his perfectionist family that demands more of him than should be and is irrational, then he said I am the same. What can I say to this? The difference is, they hurt him in a negative way, while the hurt he feels with me is meant to bring about positive growth (he can't see that, of course!) I want/need healthy growth and change in ourselves & in relationship. I want as J. Vanvonderen calls it, "a marriage & family where grace is in place"!!! I want shame resolution!! I want authentic personal wholeness in him and myself so we can have a healthy, growing intimate marital relationship! But when I want the dysfunction to quit, he says I'm just being a perfectionist?!!!! HELP! But...he won't listen to me....SueB, you are able to talk to your H, but for my H, I tell him truth and it's like water off a duck's back...doesn't sink in at all. I just think it's at the point I'm not accomplishing anything here but constantly getting hurt myself while interfereing in the dysfunction he apparently wants to live in.<P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 26, 2000).]

<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum25/HTML/000814.html" TARGET=_blank>When is enough, enough?</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>SueB, you are able to talk to your H, but for my H, I tell him truth and it's like water off a duck's back...doesn't sink in at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did I say it sunk in? If that were true, then I would not have to be a broken record, repetitive. I still have a responsibility to be true to myself, no matter how he responds, that is my point. He knows that you are afraid of him and he uses that to the fullest. But the reality is in some ways, that if you faced him head to head and IF he punched on you, then he would be doubly faced with his perfectionism and anger issues because you cannot deny bruises. And no, I do not want you to get punched on, but sometimes I think we allow our fears to cloud the facts.<P>Think about [censored]'s posts. He says he realized just before she was out of there that he had lost her and that he had messed up and at that point, he coudn't make enough changes fast enough to rebuild the marriage. So what did he notice? Can you tell us [censored]? Had she become cold and matter of fact? Did she put the truth out there in spite of your tirades?<P>We can read books upon books in order "to understand" our spouses, but God still calls us to do our part so that we are not contributing to the problem. I am increasing holding my husband accountable for the words he says in small but tangible ways. We are responsible for our actions, Renae, which includes doing the legwork that Karenna talked about in the thread she left you and I think we have to evaluate the sin of inaction.

SueB:<P>My wife accused me of only changing the exterior and that I was only putting on an act to keep from losing her.<P>To be honest with you, I can't say as I blame her. Actually the changes began in me in 1995 when I realized "I didn't know Jesus".<P>You say "[censored], you mean you weren't a Christian?" No....that's not what I mean at all.<P>I was born again in November of 1960, called to preach in 1963, came to know the fullness of the Spirit in 1967, was ordained, wrote books, preached, taught blah/blah....but I didn't know Jesus.<P>What I realized in 1995 as I discovered relationship vs performance Christianity was that I knew "about Jesus", but I didn't know Him.<P>Twice in the New Testament, where the word "knew" is used (Mary knew not her husband until the birth of Jesus and where Jesus said: ".....I never knew you", in the Greek the word is translated "intimacy".<P>In other words Mary didn't have intimate relations with Joseph til after the birth of Jesus and Jesus said "Depart from me...I never knew you (never had intimate relations with you)"<P>I had so many phony masks, I hid everything well, I was extremely legalistic and religious, that's why I understand what Renae is facing with her husband, because that is <BR>the way he seems.<P>Then in late 1995, while I was on a missions trip inside China (smuggling Bibles); the Lord spoke to me, the words that changed my life: "I am more interested in what I can accomplish IN YOU, than what I can accomplish THROUGH you".<P>Later, He added on to this phrase by saying:<BR>"...because the quality of what I accomplish through you, will be based on the quality of what I have been able to accomplish IN you".<P>In other words Character, Integrity, Inner Purity etc/etc.<P>Then things began to build in late 1995 and on into 1996 as my wife/I were at total odds over a missions trip she wanted to take to Mongolia and be gone 2 months. We were not in agreement, I was still very much into control, co-dependent, insecure....all while I was struggling to allow the Lord to change me.<P>I went through a tremendous deliverance session on Sunday, Jan 28th, 1996 and the next day, the Pastor spent 2 hours telling my wife, the things I became free from. She didn't believe him, she thought it was all an act.<P>Anyway...10 days later, Feb 7th she moved out on me. To be honest, I Praise God she moved out, for this forced me to either get ahold of God for myself or I was finished.<P>I told my former wife several times, "I don't blame you for leaving, in fact I thank you for it and what it has done in me...however, do you have to stay gone so long?"<P>Life is made up of series of choices we make. I made wrong choices for years, broke certain spiritual laws and ended up losing my marriage.<P>SueB: didn't mean to be so 'wordy', but to answer your question, yes at the last my wife was cold/indifferent because I guess she just didn't believe me and over the next 4 years, she never had the chance to get to know the "new [censored]".<P>I am so radically different, at times I do not even know myself.<P>To be honest , I have little or no mercy towards men, because of men like me (the way I was), Renae's husband and all the other men who wake up too late!<P>For 4 years, I prayed and cried out to God to give me a second chance with my wife, to make up to her, to have a chance to be the man I should have always been...but she never gave me that chance.<P>I still continue to pray for a second chance.<P>Renae:<P>I will echo Karenna's last post...."when is enough, enough?"<P>If you do decide to leave, I feel you need to implement what Harley calls Plan -B- for awhile (the no contact rule). For if you try Plan -A- I fear this will only give your husband a continued open door to verbally and emotionally abuse you.<P>For you and for all, my New Year's admonition has been: "May 2001 be a year of New Beginnings for us all".<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored],<P>"someone told me (a total stranger who didn't know me or my circumstances); that "[censored], I sense in my spirit while you are trying to put fires out all around you, the problem is WITHIN you".<P>Ouch!"<P>Thank you......I, for one, am proud of you and the strides you have made in what you have shared of your life with us. Takes a "true" man to be able to do that as far as I am concerned!<P>Ragamuffin<P><BR>

Hi Renae:<BR>Just read about your situation. Just wanted to say my prayer are with you. Praise God that at least your husband is willing to take counseling that within itself is a sure sign that he wants to make things better for you guys. My husband ain't gonna try and he is just so full of anger in his on world that only God can bring him out. Please pray for me.

Ragamuffin:<P>Thank you for your kind words, I have read alot of your threads/replies.<P>By the way, that is quite a catchy username,<BR>'Ragamuffin'.<P>May 2001 for you be a year of happiness and New Beginnings!<P>[censored] from Texas