Dianne, my H would not go to counseling either for most of our 14 yr. marriage and he's been a boiling pot of his own anger too. I know what you are going through & you have our prayers here!! <P>When my H had decided to go to counseling, it wasn't with the motive to change anything about himself or the relationship but to get me back the way things were in his control game; he believes he does nothing wrong and I'm the whole problem. He's punishing me verbally almost every day now (taking revenge) that at counseling I brought him to accountability before a pastor and exposed the pain he puts me through. So the counseling has ended.<P>Yes, [censored], time for Plan B. We have basically been doing a semi-separation since last summer, and I'm just a target board for verbal abuse. Yesterday he was taking sick verbal shots at me continuously (in front of the kids) before we left to pick up his dad and drive to his relatives. I kept telling him firmly to stop it, but he wouldn't quit. This is enough, Karenna!! Enough! It was enough months ago! The difference is, it is completely dead now. [censored], I turned over every stone, I gave him every chance, I have grieved over and over but I have come to accept it is dead now....dead, and time to move on. Time to tie up some lose ends of work, pack up, and go. I refuse to be his target anymore. <P>I am so amazed, seeing him in front of relatives, he looks so gentle & loving, pours on the charm and humor, speaks righteously about issues in the world, ...... what a great guy--on the surface!! Boy, I've learned a hard lesson!!!!...the difference between the inside of the cup and the outside.<P>Last night before I fell asleep, the Lord gave me another scripture. I was stunned, and am quite certain it was a sign that it is time for HIS deliverance, taking me out of the hand of the man who has, as Counselor has said, become my enemy. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 28, 2000).]

Renae:<P>I guess there's really nothing left for me to say. I grieve for/with you and I grieve for your husband.<P>Yes, as you said: "talk about the outside and inside of the cup".....this is the whole issue of why Jesus said to clean the "inside" of the cup first.<P>This is what began to set me free back in 1995 and I am still in process..."the inner life".<P>Do you know what a 'mirage' is? I'm sure you do. It's something that at a distance appears to be something, that when you get up close really isn't. I'm sure you've seen or heard about people stranded in the desert and diving into what they thought was water, only to be sand.<P>We can be mirage's as well. From a distance, we can appear 'righteous' and 'all together', but when people get up close, they can see the real thing.<P>I remember, just before I went through deliverance and faced myself, back in 1995; <BR>every Sunday morning after church, I would leave right after the service and wait in the car for my wife to finish talking/visiting.<P>The reason I left immediately is, because it was a Grace based church, not works, performance or legalistic; and because you really couldn't mask what you were for very long.....I was afraid to let people get close to me.<P>I was afraid if I stayed around, visited and allowed people to get up close; they would see what a phony I was, that despite my outward appearance and veneer.....they would see/sense the inner turmoil/rage/anger/lust/perversion raging inside.<P>This is where your husband is at. He puts on a good front, an excellent 'mirage'; but when people get up close (like what happened when he was exposed at counseling, the real deal comes out).<P>Ephesians 5 talks about anything that comes to the light is manifested as clear and visible. The enemy hates to be exposed, he would like us to remain as 'mirages' and never become real/vulnerable.<P>I'm sorry Renae, but there comes a time to just walk away. You didn't fail as a wife, love never fails!<P>I just read this, this morning in my devotions, that even if we do not obtain the desired results by showing love (agape), we (and love) still didn't fail.<P>Your husband is totally, completely without hope UNTIL he takes responsibility for his behavior, his actions, his issues and begins to deal with them.....this is called 'humility'.<P>The Lord honors/hears those who are of a broken and contrite heart over their sin(s);<BR>the best prayer your husband could pray would be: "Lord, change ME". <P>In closing, I haven't 'served you anything to eat/digest, that hasn't first come off my plate'. In other words, I have and/or am walking out everything I have shared with you.<P>Blessings upon you as we close out this year.<P>[censored] from Texas<P>P.S.<P>I am going to e-mail you a picture of myself.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by [censored] (edited December 28, 2000).]

All things brings to mind Jesus's reference to the Pharisees when he likened them to "whited sepulchers."<P>Renae, and others, I hope your lives are increasingly filled with peace from God.<P>But, Renae, I do worry about you. I know, oh how I know, you grieve the loss of the relationship you sought with your husband. But are you on course with your plans to live separately for a while. You know there comes a time when you have to seek peace in your spirit and in your soul. And I feel you are truly approaching that time. <P>I believe it was Augustine who said something to the effect of "To have peace you must know yourself and to know yourself you must be alone."<P>I feel you may be alone in your marriage. But I also feel you may need to create physical space between your husband and yourself in order for any greater peace and harmony to develop.

I must give to God the broken pieces and wait upon Him for what he plans to do with them. May he make beauty from ashes.<P>Thank you, [censored], Cinderella, Karenna, Lonelywife, SueB, and all who so lovingly and insightfully have given and helped me here this past six months! The Lord has touched me through you, and I am so grateful! I really hope to live a fully healed, whole life again, but more than that to be able to reach out to others as you have done to me....<P>I pray God's richest blessing on each one of you for the new year! <P>As I heard a pastor say on TV, we must bring glory to God in the highest...and only then will come the peace on earth, the goodwill toward men. Let's go forward to glorify Him!<BR>

Renae - Yes, God can do good work in your life but it takes your participation.<P>Like the man sitting on top of his flood-water surrounded house who prayed to be rescued. Someone came by in a boat and offered him a ride to safety. He stayed on the roof. Someone came by in a helicopter and offered him a ride to safety. He stayed on the roof. Someone else came by in a canoe and offered him a ride to safety. He stayed on the roof. He drowned and went to heaven and God said, "What are you doing here?" and the man replied "Why didn't you rescue me?"<P>I know you keep hearing these good messages but what are you doing to move toward safety - physical and emotional?

Renae:<P>Bleubelle shares an excellent story that really drives home a point. <P>However, the way I heard it, as the man sat on his roof, each rescuer (boat/helicopter) that wanted to rescue him, he told them "oh, I am a Christain, God will take care of me"<P>Finally, he drowns and when he gets to heaven he asks the Lord "why didn't you save me?"<P>The Lord replied "I tried to, I sent you 2 rowboats and a helicopter".<P>God won't do for us, what we can do for ourselves. He will only do for us, what we CAN'T do for ourselves.<P>[censored] from Texas

I've been away for awhile, but caught up on this thread.<P>I was hoping for some good news, that you have taken that step towards safety for you and your precious children. Christmas is over...<P>Renae, you sound like you are growing stronger, but you will keep finding excuses; they may sound like good reasons.<P>As Tamis said many pages ago, you don't need the counsellor or pastor's permission.<P>There is something I think we have misunderstood as Christians. We aren't supposed to have "perfect peace" when making tough decisions. It is only in hindsight, after doing the best we know, praying for wisdom and strength, that we find PEACE.<P>If you truly believe separation is the right thing to do, failure to act is a sin of ommission just as surely as doing something we know to be wrong.<BR>

Renae, I don't think you actually clicked on that link I gave you the other day to <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum25/HTML/000814.html" TARGET=_blank>When is enough, enough?</A></B><P>Also read what I wrote to Lonesome Heart about an <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/002784.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs bootcamp</A> during a separation.<P>Then please post your reactions to these threads. <P>.<P><BR>And after Christmas comes New Years, and after that comes the Aftermath of the Holidays. And after that there is still work to be done. then it is Valentine's day and how can you ever leave him until after that! etc. etc. ad nauseum.<p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited December 29, 2000).]

Tonight H was very verbally abusive to his elerly dad, and I tried to stop it but H would not straighten out....His dad told him several times to stop carrying it on...but H would not stop. Suddenly his dad got up and went toward the door, got his coat on, then sat down and hung his head....H was scared when his dad, who has a heart condition, would not respond to him (didn't know if it was due to emotions, mad at H, or if his heart was physically stressed). Fortunately his dad was physically ok..... <P>You would think this would have been enough for H to WAKE UP for once!!!....but NO! Karenna, nothing is ever ENOUGH for this man to wake up!!! He pushes everybody beyond limits!! <P>As soon as his dad went home, H starts preaching at me very narrow-mindedly about various topics....religious talk....<BR>he didn't care that I was still busy finishing his dad's business...he grabbed my chin, forcing me to look at him when he was preaching, etc... <P>I think his dad will understand when I have to leave. He knows. He often sticks up for me when H talks against me....<P>Yes, I am leaving.... Plan B comes next week.<P><BR> <P>

Thanks, Karenna. I didn't know I was supposed to click on that and find a thread to read...<BR>I just read When is enough enough....<BR>it is very good! A key point for me is:<P>"I am becoming very aware that I am not showing my H honor when I allow him to treat me with disrespect or do not set up boundaries. " That's an interesting angle!<P>Also--"... For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. [35].... [36] But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. [37] For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." That is powerful scripture! It appears that God has no tolerance for verbal abusers! <P>Some scripture the Lord used to help me in the midst of this is Psalms 64:<P>1 "Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy.<P>2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity;<P>3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:<P>4 They may shoot in secret....<P>5 They encourage themselves in an evil manner; they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?<P>6.....<P>7 BUT God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded.<P>8 So shall they make their own tongue to fall upon themselves; all that see them shall flee away.<P>9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.<P>10 The righteous shall be glad in the Lord, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory."<P>On the same page of my Bible is Psalms 61<BR>(all of it is great!)but especially "...when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I. For thou has been a shleter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy....I will trust in the covert of thy wings." Also notice verse 8 that says "So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows.".... <P><BR>

Hey! Karenna...Emotional Needs Bootcamp was terrific!!!.... Glad you told me to go over there. I've been thinking lately, what on earth to do with MY NEEDs!!... I sit here imprisoned in this damaging relationship, emotionally starving in it and from the isolation from others that H requires, etc.....and as Godly as we want to be, we are still human!!!... If nothing else, I really need to separate so I can be around other people and gain perspective outside of these walls. My world has become dreadfully small and sick! Those posts were great!<P>And Hey, I'm a list maker too!!..<BR>Thanks for the lists!!!<BR>Hugs to you, Karenna!<BR>Getting sleepy here...Gotta go get some zzzzzzz's!! ~Renae

And after Christmas comes New Years, and after that comes the Aftermath of the Holidays. And after that there is still work to be done. then it is Valentine's day and how can you ever leave him until after that! etc. etc. ad nauseum.<P>Renae, if this person, and I will not use the term 'man', is as you say he is, he's not fit for anyone to be married to. <P>I see nothing, repeat, NOTHING God-like about him. Please do yourself and your children a favor, and follow through on your plans for Dec. 27.

Christmas is over, have you noticed?<P>December 27 has passed too.<P>Are you willing to rescue your daughters as well? It is only a matter of Will. Not Able.<P>Keep posting. Your saga continues to draw me back with bated breath. I am praying for all of you. <BR>Love,<P>Karenna