Oh Neil - I'm sooo sorry. It's just all very sad isn't it? And of course, with your girls being effected it must just compound everything.

It will get better - I have to believe that for me, and it was you that gave me the daily mantra. It will get better for you and your girls. You are right though, sometimes you need to just cry and cry to get it all out of your system. That, have a few drinks too many sometimes, go racing in your car (not whilst drinking I hasten to add <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), doing fun things with the girls, and coming here to rant and rave.

Time does change things - I hate that expression about being a great healer, but with time, emotions, feelings, situations change. Until the DV becomes final, I think it will get worse before it gets better (sorry), but keep looking after you and the girls.

Wishing you well from North London

Lisa

I think what really broke me yesterday was the little girls coming in, their sheer exhaustion at the situation.

One of my twins was very stressed out and said some very worrying things about me to me which hurt me.

My W had dropped them off, and I had thought it would help to ease the tension if she had a cup of coffee, she said she could not that night. Of course that was because OM2 was waiting around the corner to be picked up the girls told me. This is the woman who last week was dreaming of coming home? Clearly Svengali doesn't let her out of his sight.

We drove to the Cinema to try and see Die Another Day only to find it fully booked, then at the video store they all couldn't agree on what they wanted to watch, then my D started about me and how tired she was and clearly stressed out. After one thing and another by the time we got home we were all upset and tired.

For an hour or so I just sat in the Cinema room and cried whilst they watched TV. My D who's mature for a 10 year old came in and held me and made me a cup of tea. What a sight I must have been.

I envy those BS's here whose WS's are making a real effort to recover. I guess with my W's abuse it was too much to hope that the M could survive but it would have been nice to have been given the chance to at least try. Now I have an OM2 who my kids hate, a relationship in tatters, so much blood on my hands I can't sleep at night for thinking about it, and a real need to not feel so goddamn lonely all the time. I really ought to write a book you know! OK enuff with the pity party.

Neil.

Neil

There's not much I can say - I can tell how devastating this is for you. Don't worry too much about what your D said. Firstly, girls are funny things - we say all sorts of stuff <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But seriously, they are of course hurt, can't truly understand what is going on or why, and will lash out at you as one of the people they see as causing their grief. Children are incredibly resilient, but this is such a hard time for them too.

Know that we are all out here routing for you..

Lisa

Yesterday was a bit of a mess. My W dropped off the kids because I came home early with toothache, she stayed for a coffee. First time I had seen her in months. It was nice to have her around. We small talked about family etc and what I and she were doing now. She's gone back to Nursing which I was always proud of her doing, kinda weird to hear that that was. I didn't offer up much info on me, I just felt very guarded.

When she left she gave me a hug and started crying, then I had one of the kids crying and I said she had to go, and she left crying alot.

I went to Relate in the evening, looks like it will have been my last MC session as the Babysitter can no longer come over <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> when I left I popped into my Brother in Laws for a Coffee and W was there, she asked me to talk to her outside and she started wanting to talk about us, about how I wanted the divorce it was very hard on us, how I was moving on etc. I was drained at this point having had several emotional days and struggles as you know. Tears welled in my eyes and I found it difficult to talk to her, but I cannot get over the fact that she is living right now with another man and all the things that I have been told by him. I couldn't talk about it. What am I supposed to do? Just have her back with arms outstretched? I do not know what to do. Neil.

Neil

Firstly, is there anyone else who can babysit, or can you get another appointment time? Relate is very important for you at the moment, and I think you need that outlet to continue. Try to work out if there is a way to continue.

OK Neil, question, I know you love your W, but (irrespective of OM), would you want a future with her? Or, has too much else happened in the past for you?

If it's the former, then you have to tell her. It's never too late. Someone (can't remember who), says in their sig line that they were reconciled 2 weeks before DV. Some people reconcile after DV. It is never too late, but do you really want to? If you do, then you must tell her, but also tell her that it is not possible to reconcile whilst she is living with OM2. This does not either mean that you should just suggest that she come home. But Neil, ask yourself if you really want it or is there too much water under the bridge with everything else.

I think your WW is getting scared, I think she knows that DV is for real, I think the papers have really shaken her up.

Anyway, must run, have to get some letters in the post.

Neil, this is such a painful time, I wish I could be of more help to you, and I'm not terribly wise (think my own brain has turned to mulch with all my upsets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), but know that you are supported here.

Take care, and wishing you well from sunny North London.

Lisa

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>Firstly, is there anyone else who can babysit, or can you get another appointment time?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to find someone but my options are very limited. I can't do daytime appointments and you know what it's like trying to get a regular evening slot.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>OK Neil, question, I know you love your W, but (irrespective of OM), would you want a future with her? Or, has too much else happened in the past for you?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The truth is I do not know. This has been a topic for me over many weeks at Relate and with Steve H. You see I am not dealing with what I would call a "marriage breakdown". I do know I loved my W for a very long time and very deeply. The A cut me to my very soul, but I got up and said we would get through. I spent the two months trying to be the supposed super husband that she felt was missing, but all the child abuse was coming out and the A was continuing. When D-Day 2 arrived I put my stake in the ground again but five days later she was in the Psych ward. Fast forward 4 months and when she came out I really tried but she turned to OM2 (older father figure) and in time that was that.

I truly loved the woman that was, but do I love this woman now? I really dont know, I see her and feel a feeling akin to love but its tempered by the knowledge that she has had 2 A's both blamed on me, that I have dealt with things no one should see let alone handle, and I am so fearful that it will all start again with an OM3 at the first sign of trouble. I really believed that I could handle 1 A, and felt that come the end I had, but OM2 has crushed me. Totally crushed me.

Coffeeman advised me and so did Redhat that there is no recovery from this, Relate to has said "How do you overcome the damage?" and thats about my W getting therapy for her issues and standing by me, not damage to me. Relate and Steve H have advised that there is unlikely to be closure to it either for me. Its not as though I managed to get anywhere myself the choices were taken away by my wife. No doubt when she reads this she will disagree. Ultimately I loved the woman that was and I don't know the woman that is. I am going to Divorce as its the only route I see now, and there is no other movement. when it all comes down to dust she is with OM2.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If it's the former, then you have to tell her. It's never too late. Someone (can't remember who), says in their sig line that they were reconciled 2 weeks before DV. Some people reconcile after DV. It is never too late, but do you really want to?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know. In my head I try and think of things I should have done differently, how I could have given more support, how I could have stopped the cutting, how I could have been there everyday she tried to kill herself but I can't get rest from it. It plagues me even now with her away and no longer mine. All I know is I spent 10 months looking after her after OM1, abuse, suicide and so many stitches Lisa you would not believe, only to be left alone for OM2. I begged and pleaded for her to go to her Brothers, he said the same, the kids too. No was always the answer, so I have switched to plan B and then divorce. Its all I can focus on to keep sense of it for myself and my little ones.

Now I don't have to wake up in the middle of the night drenched in blood, I dont have to leave the kids and drive around Milton Keynes trying to find her or worse her body, I don't panic every time the phone rings thinking it's the Hospital saying she has ran away.

And now Women are taking an interest in me, women who are nice and attracted to me, and I am seeing some semblance of a potential life beyond what I have had and what a future might hold, and it makes me realise that it can be good again after so much sorrow.

Neil.

Oh Neil,

I read your story, and it is soooo painful and sad, but I think you have answered my question, and within that yours.

When you were having coffee with your wife and chatting, almost like normal, it must just pull at your heart, but of course, it wasn't normal was it? The history runs deep, and could you live with that again, and that fear? I don't think you could, and I think you know that and that is the decision you have come to with help from Relate, SH, wise people here, and yourself, from within your heart.

You know that it was not your fault - Neil you did not make her do the things she did, the self harm, suicide attempts, and running to OM1 and OM2. But it doesn't change the fact that for so many years you have loved this woman and had 3 wonderful children - noone can take that away from you and that will always be a powerful hold. So, is it time to move on? I hear your uncertainty, your fear, am I doing the right thing, is there perhaps hope? But it seems I also hear, that the damage is too deep and you can't recover from it.

Neil, as ever, I wish I could be of more help, but wishing you well from north London.

Lisa

Just lurking on you line and wondered if you had checked with the baptist church. They have moms day out, and other type sitters, maybe you could find one there JMHO

Thanks Lisa, I had another "I want to kill myself" message yesterday which scared me, tried to get hold of her to make sure she was OK. No reply as usual. Her Brother got hold of her though and she was down but ok.

These are the kind of things that make me realise there is no hope in this. I cant go running to her anmymore she is with another man, and I cant respond in any meaningful way because there is no love from her. Neil.

Neil,
I look in on you from time to time but I don't say much because often don't believe I can help you very much in most of what you face now.

I do have an opinion about what she is doing with the threats. I know you care about her and that it can be very real after what has come before. I still believe you need to remove yourself from taking these calls, and from trying to help her. I know some will think I am harsh, or worse, but I believe you need to do it for your own mental health. At this point you need to put your daughters first, you need to care for them. If you are not in good shape yourself, their care will suffer. While she was with you, it was in your hands, but she has taken it out by her own actions.

I don't know if there is treatment for what is wrong with her, indeed I do not understand it at all. If you want to deal with it and still try and help her, I would say the same thing to her each time she calls.
1. I would be glad to help, but I require:
A. You leave OM on your own.
B. You need to get treatment for as long as it takes to heal yourself.

This last is only if you feel you have to help, I still recommend you stay out of it if you can keep yourself away. If OM wants her, he should get all of her. If she wants him, she should look to him for help. I know this is an extreme interpretation of plan B, but I think your health, and your daughters health has got to come first now. I believe you did the right thing in not responding yourself.

If you get another call, foreward it to OM.

SS

<small>[ November 27, 2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS, it is always a very difficult situation like that.

Again I am thrown into turmoil with it. She's now saying that she is leaving OM2 and moving in with a female friend some 1/2 hour drive away (much further than now and a long way for children). I do not know what she wants anymore, I do not know if she wants her and I, if she wants the family or what.

I do not know how I feel, I feel OK when I am away from her in Plan B, but I feel in turmoil when I see her. It was very hard this last week. But is that because I care for her as she is an abuse victim who has suffered so much or is that because I love the woman who was or is it because I still love her? I do not know and there is no forum to find out. I am also sure that OM2 probably knows little if anything of these thoughts of hers.

Additionally I have met someone who I am attracted to, that makes me feel good about myself, who I enjoy talking to and who I see to talk to once a week. It shows me how abnormal my last year has been and what hope there might be for the future in a relationship that is not one where I fear all the time.

I genuinely do not know how I might recover trust in my W or overcome the fear that she is still cutting herself, seeing others etc.

You are right in that my Children and therefore my health are the first priority. In fact at the moment this is my only priority because there is no other option. I often wonder if I should keep reminding myself that like Coffeemans story there is no feedback from my W on her illness recovery. I do not know if she is making progress. Just that sometimes I get these messages that cut me to the core.

Neil.

Porsche

I understand the difficulty in determining whether you could ever look at your wife again in any loving manner. I was capable of it after three affairs, only because they all occurred before I knew about them, and I thought that she had stopped them all for our recovery. It was hard, but I was able to overcome the triggers of her affairs. They weren't the hardest things to control. The hardest things for me were the triggers of how SHE treated me during the 'breakup' period. Like not wearing her wedding ring. Blaming me for her having the affairs. Showing absolutely NO significant attempt at changing herself, but blaming me for not making eerything in our recovery perfect for us both.

She misunderstood how I felt, thinking that all my difficulties stemmed from the affairs. They were hard, but I was almost completely over them. I didn't look at her as an adultress. I loved her, and was giving her everything I could to show her that. But I started to realize, that she was not putting in effort to change how SHE reacted and interacted, she was putting up window dressing, but nothing behind the window pane.

But after finding out about man number 4 at the time of our final breakup, I realized that this woman was not a person that I could ever trust again. She told me that there was no one else, and even stated that she might be willing to move back to our home state along, not with, me so that I could take the job that I have trained for for the last 10 years. But I found out it was all a lie once again.

So I understand the trepidation that you maintain. I have no clear words that will help. When they do it knowing that you know is the hardest thing to get over. The repeated lies and blaming. The deceit and lies to their friends and family. It just shows the character or lack thereof that you would have to work with, and frankly, I have found that I am not strong enough. I always thought that there was nothing in the sorld that I couldn't do. Well, I have found my limit.

God bless you Neil. Stay strong. Take care.

Thanks, I spoke to my wife today because we were texting each other yesterday, I was trying to see if there was any way to stop this DV.

She is very upset and angry at me you can hear it in her voice regarding the things she feels I have done since the start of September when she left.

She does not want reconciliation in her view I have hurt her too much and she needs to be on her own now, she says that interaction with me makes her suicidal and therefore she must have minimal contact. I tried today one last effort to see if there could be a reconciliation, there is not going to be. I hope in years to come she may find a place for forgiveness of me for the things I have done these past two months that hurt her.

She reads and does not agree with what I write here but you all are a help to me. Her views on what has happened are very different to my own so we are in a stalemate. For both our healths and particularly her own I am moving on with the Divorce and I am also going to embark on new relationships in order to move on.

Best Wishes Neil.

Hi Neil.

Your WW's shifting blame to you is nothing more than a defense mechanism. Don't for a minute buy into any of her BS. She is not in any state of mind to be in ANY kind of relationship and I would advise you to minimize as much as possible the contact your girls have with her.

As far as your new relationship is concerned, I would advise you extreme caution because you have not healed your heart and thus are very vulnerable to latch onto another woman without getting to know her well very at all. Guard your emotions and your heart well for the time being, as you continue to heal and you find out more what kind of person this new woman in your life really is. Try to be a true friend who also looks out for her feelings as well as his own. Remember that you STILL have strong feelings of love for your WW and it would be a tragedy if she came back to you all healed and asking you to give her another chance (and you accepted her) and you had the gut wrenching part of breaking your new friend's heart. So please Neil, walk very carefully so as not to fall into any avoidable traps that might lie ahead as a result of your new relationship.

Neil

I think both SS and Coffeeman make very valuable points about protecting yourself. You seem more certain that there is currently no future for you and your WW. So look after yourself and your girls.

As ever, wishing you well from north London, and just checking in.

Lisa

This last week I have been having ranting threats of violence to me on my mobile and home phones, last night my Brother In Law tells me that the night before my W was very suicidal and he had to spend most of the night with her and I should back off, and just try and be friends.

Sometimes you have to wonder if this is all really real. Its sad in many respects because her Brother In Law is also my best friend. I think that we need to spend a few months away from this whole situation in order to try and make some stability and peace in it.

I am not going to be blamed for her feeling suicidal, I have spend to many months stopping her from killing herself and cutting only to become the cause, and I am not going to be blamed by others either that have no idea first hand of what stopping someone you love is like. I gave reconciliation a shot this week, what a fool am I.

Neil.

Neil

I am sorry this is something else that you have to deal with. You know it is not your fault, and I am sorry your W is so very ill.

You are right though, it is time to back off, Plan B as you were etc. and keep concentrating on you and the girls.

Not much else I can say, except the same as you said to me - take some time for yourself and the girls this weekend.

Wishing you well from North London

Lisa

Thanks Lisa, I have now received the Divorce Petition back so am filing the next set of papers. Should be divorced by mid-late Jan at this rate.

I am also going to mediation at her solicitors request next tuesday to cover assets and finances. I personally think we are a long way thru this but we will see.

Monday 2nd would have been my 13th Wedding Anniversary.

Neil.

A bit of food for thought...

I was trying to see if there was any way to stop this DV.

Thanks Lisa, I have now received the Divorce Petition back so am filing the next set of papers. Should be divorced by mid-late Jan at this rate.

The way to stop the divorce is to NOT have one. You don't want one, yet you filed, you are pushing it, and now wondering why it is happening.

Not strictly Chris. A Divorce is the only way to get some stability and security for myself and my girls. That reference was to my attempts these past few months for any attempt at reconciliation which there has not been.

Neil.