As for boundaries I understand what you are saying but with Child Abuse the survivors need to set the boundaries. We tried and tried that, and they kept being broken, which was a pattern that repeated itself.

It hasn't been possible to stick to the boundaries because you have the emotional pain of 2 x A's in there. Yet I am supposed to be this Rock to cope and put all that aside. I did for the most part but any lapse resulted in a breaking of the boundaries (cutting, drinking etc) and further disintegration. In some respects she is better off not having to face me because that means she can concentrate on her abuse recovery and not me. There have always been places for her to go, friends and family (hers and mine included), but she went with OM2. Neil.

Aagh, I didn't understand that about Child Abuse Survivors. But if you were to have any hope of reconciliation, surely some agreed boundaries would still need to be set about your M?

Anyway Neil, this is such a difficult thing for most of us to understand. I think I told you my sister used to self harm, and it was just completely outside of my comprehension. Thankfully she does not do it anymore.

Neil, even though I find it hard to give you many words of advice, I still wish you well, and hope for the best for you and your family.

Lisa

Hi Neil,
I suppose you have to ask yourself "Is there any chance I could ever take her back, and if so, what would the conditions be?"

If the answer is yes, then write down the conditions and give them to her, and let her take it from there. If no, then stop talking about it, as it will just continue to damage to your emotional health.

I hope we are not adding to the problems you are having by what we post. I can see why you don't want to get sucked back into the fray as it were. I still believe your first priority is yourself. If you are not emotionally healthy, you will not be able to help anyone else.

SS

PS, its hard, isn't it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>But if you were to have any hope of reconciliation, surely some agreed boundaries would still need to be set about your M?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well you would hope so but how do you do that? How do you arrive at sensible boundaries? Coffeman said that boundary setting was very difficult and agree with that.

We are not talking about normal boundaries here. We are talking about boundaries like "Don't have another Affair", "Call Someone before you cut", "Don't drink", "Never see your parents again". These are very serious issues and needs, compared though to the damage wrought to herself by breaking them though they are fairly small. I hope she gets well I really do, and I feel these need to be the boundaries but she has to make them herself because any I say would be considered controlling or telling her what to do.

Sometimes I truly think that Abuse counselling should also include the Partner as we need to be very aware of the impact on us. Sadly no or very few therapists take that view due to the highly personal nature of child abuse. Its a very personal recovery process. The Partner is very much left to wait in the wings and "accept" the difficulties. However throw in 2 A's as "symptoms" of that abuse - if indeed that is what they are and it becomes a breaker. Steve H bless him told me its not a marriage breakdown we are dealing with per se its a person breakdown. I wish in some respects she had seen that and we could have saved our M. Best Wishes Neil.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>I suppose you have to ask yourself "Is there any chance I could ever take her back, and if so, what would the conditions be?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi SS, forgot to reply. I used to do this roleplay in my head but I don't anymore. My W doesn't talk the talk of reconciliation, it's all very confusing what she says. She doesn't say "I want to come home" or "I love you" she says "would you have me back" which in the circumstances (bad ones) when I was asked were very different things. I suppose I have come to the point where whilst I love her, love is no longer enough.

Even now there's all sorts of hard things to deal with, the children were sworn at by OM2 and were very upset when they came home to me last night. It's hard to hear your 10 year cry because another man has called her "****ing thick". Sounds as though they gave as good as they got though. I just cheered them up and took them out to their friends, sorry I digress. I am sure that my wife will tell people now that she wanted to come home and I didn't let her. Of course she's doing the single life out clubbing, kissing others and had contact with OM1.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If the answer is yes, then write down the conditions and give them to her, and let her take it from there. If no, then stop talking about it, as it will just continue to damage to your emotional health.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no forum to discuss such conditions. Besides she has already told me that "I can't control her like that" early on in her leaving.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I hope we are not adding to the problems you are having by what we post. I can see why you don't want to get sucked back into the fray as it were. I still believe your first priority is yourself. If you are not emotionally healthy, you will not be able to help anyone else.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This last week has been hellish, it's like I've reverted back to no longer being strong. I think I began to have 2nd thoughts about this whole DV process and then her "kill myself" texts and being blamed for her being suicidal took a toll on me, people her included seem to blame me for all this again and again. I thought again that I might be able to pull through with her. Then the disasterous mediation and now this weekend it just keeps getting worse.

To have some conditions you have to have a belief that it's the right thing to do. The fundamental principle of any recovery should be that there is love there, and not once in my 3 month separation has my wife said such.

As for what others write here I don't care about her reading it. Yes she throws it at me but it's my helpline, this and Steve H and Relate. It's somewhat unfair that I am not allowed a support infrastructure but was expected to cope easily with 2 x A's, so much cutting and suicide attempts, maybe one day she'll realise that. If she doesn't want to read it she doesn't have too after all. She even has a signon in the early days and made about 20 posts but no more.

I am going to try and start establishing myself again, I need to like you say try and avoid these discussions as they are painful and do no good. I am not going to do conditions either, my wife views recovery as "she comes home or doesn't". Of course we know it's not that simple but it is that black & white to her. The WS is recovery here are actively involved in their own recovery, and I am envious of that because I never really had that.

I should have the next set of Divorce Papers (the affadavit) this week to get off to the court. I am going to stick to my MC for awhile and I am going to begin to see and talk to other women and move on with my life. Best Wishes Neil.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>PS, its hard, isn't it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To damn right, to damn right.

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: Porsche 911 996C2 ]</small>

Neil,

Catching up on your thread, I don't come to the divorce forum yet.

Chris,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am currently in a full blown forgivness mode. I am trying so hard, not for her, but for me and my boys. I need to forgive, even if she wants none of it, nor cares enough to even acknowledge it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the point I am at, and Neil was already through this part, but forgiveness can only continue as long as positive step's are being met, AI stay focused on recovery, (abuse recovery, become a survivor), there may not be a need for MC because it has been the abuse that has been incontrol, it is not their fault, but they must learn to seperate and understand what the abuse has ment in their life, and learn how to cope in a meaningful and benificial way, learn not to fall back to revictomization.

I astablish the boundries in my marriage at this time, my W does not know how to set good boundries and stay true to them, that will come as the healing process continue's. The first boundry that must be astablished is being able to say "NO, I will not let this happen again". This does not mean my W will adhere to them, but she is trying.

My W would alway's tell ME no, and that would give her what she wanted, and that was to keep ME in an agitated state so I would become her abuser and she could justify her action's by blamming me.

The code of secrecy, never ever tell, even when I have caught my W she denies it happened, she will tell me I am crazy, and seeing thing's, well eventually my mind did leave me, and the emotional turmoil has been unreal.

Self-harm will manifest itself in many form's, pulling out hair with scalp, hitting one's self till there are mark's, cutting till you bleed, another form I cant say here. My W has done all of these, but she is trying to control it.

Now let's talk about LOVE, the only thing my W know's about LOVE is what her abuser's showed her. When all other coping mechanism fail she will know try to find what she call's LOVE, but it is not real, hence move from one person to the next and alway's end up feeling alone, more reason to stay the victom.

Now come's guilt and shame, the abuse victom blame's them selve's, keep's telling themselve's that it is all there fault, and they cant believe there partner want's to stay with them, and nomatter what there partner say's or does they will not believe it. Again a reason to become a victom again.

Even through the healing process there will be many up's and down's and this is only when someone truly want's to heal, and there is no set time on the healing process and the partner also now must learn how to heal.

I took a call today from my W cos one of our daughters got hurt at school. It descended into a fight about the swearing at a daughter at the weekend, then more about me. She's having a rough time she tells me but I dont know what I am supposed to do about it. It makes me sad and angry in almost equal measure. Did anyone else have this as they progressed thru DV?

Anyway she's saying now that there wont be any reconciliation and that the M is over so it is time to move on and get some rebuilding done for me alone now. Neil.

Neil,

I know a few people that have been through divorce, and I can also look through the window being I married someone that was divorced, yes thing's can get nasty even reasonable people become unreasonable. When I first got married my W's EX would learn when I was working and call and verbaly abuse my W but after some time he finnaly realized there was no benifit to it so it stopped.

Swearing around the children is going to be a problem, my W and her EX didn't care who was around they would swear at anybody including the kids, but in my home I made sure I pionted this behavior out to people and to my W and let them know it was unexceptable. But I do not believe your W or OM really care at this point, you may have to keep the children to a gaurded visitation.