Of course the son has a right to decide whether or not to go on a shopping trip. Geez, if I were planning on going to Disneyworld and my children really didn't want to go, I might think it very odd, but I wouldn't force her. If I were going shopping with a friend or relative and they couldn't stand them, I wouldn't force them to go. The only time I would make them go with me is if I absolutely had to go somewhere, like the grocery store, or if it was for their own good, like the dentist.

Even if it were better for the child to be pc and force a relationship with the woman who destroyed their family, which it is not, it is definitely the wrong thing to do from a societal point of view - just as perhaps avoiding immunizations may be best for theindividual child but not best for society. It would be far better for society at large if the perpetrators of infidelity were shunned by everyone - maybe people would think twice before having affairs and abandoning their families.

For those of you who have grown to know me and the situation I have found myself in, and who took the time to research my posts before commenting, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Your kind words meant a lot to me, and I am glad that I have friends who understand that it is not always so cut and dried when it comes to visitation.

Randy and Freshie, I am offended (and Randy I am more than a little surprised at you). I have done my absolute upmost to be fair in this whole thing, and to be accused of using my own kids to get back at him is just not fair. I have posted here recently about this whole Christmas situation....go look up my most recent posts and you will see that:

a) I would GLADLY let my son go with his dad WITH OW if my son was content with it. He is NOT, and it did NOT come from me. I don't need to explain why I KNOW that, but take it from me....I have had him talking to counsellors to find out his motives, and they are secure in the fact that HE has made this decision.

b) My stbx has been MORE than forceful to both me and my son about this. It is outright bullying, and I have had enough , thanks very much. It is up to ME to stop my son being harrassed by ANYONE, father or not.

c) and perhaps the MOST important thing that you guys seemed to have missed by either not reading my threads, or just not believing that someone can actually BE fair, I have made it as plain that I can, to my stbx and my son, that I would love for them to spend time together, OW or NOT, but my SON has explicitly stated many times he WILL not go. And sorry, but I will not force an intelligent 9 year old to do anything.

I have spent enough time justifying and explaining things to my stbx, who cannot see the damage he has done/is doing by continuing on this path. I should not have to do it on this board, too.

And Freshie, I researched YOUR posts, and found a lot of advice handed out, but no story from you. Interested in sharing before making such negative judgements about someone you do not even know?

I am curious where YOUR bitterness comes from.

Ms Nina said:

Randy and Freshie, I am offended (and Randy I am more than a little surprised at you). I have done my absolute upmost to be fair in this whole thing, and to be accused of using my own kids to get back at him is just not fair. I have posted here recently about this whole Christmas situation....go look up my most recent posts and you will see that:

I say: I was just giving my opinion based on the limited facts here. I didnt say anyone should be forced, coerced or manipulated in any way. I did say the situation was already painful enough. I will further add: I did not say what I said to hurt or offend. If there wasn't anything positive or helpful you gleaned from my posts, so be it. But there was no attempt to point fingers of blame by me at anyone. The very most I said with my limited understanding was, that you were not looking out for your sons feelings...That was the appearance of what you posted here initially. My misunderstanding, but certainly, I was not attacking.

You said>..And Freshie, I researched YOUR posts, and found a lot of advice handed out, but no story from you. Interested in sharing before making such negative judgements about someone you do not even know?

I say, there was nothing negative about my intent. If you considered judgements based on parts of the story you chose to tell on this post, I was just trying to look out for the innocent in all this, your son. Sorry you didn't see it that way? I just gave my opinion. This is a message board is it not? If it caused you pain in any way, I apologize, but that is the limit of my kowtowing and acting as if my intention in responding to you was bad or meant to be inflammatory. Do you only want responses that totally agree with your thinking, or insight into how it might be viewed or handled by others who may have been in similar situations?

As far as my story, I have no idea, what story you think is not being told here. I put in my signature, the thing I noticed in others. If you have questions about me, my story, my advice, come with them. I have nothing to hide. I have problems and pain in my everyday life and marriage too, but I wasn't trying to hurt you or enhance any rage or pain you might be feeling with insensitivity. I simply did not know you whole story. If that is inexcuseable to you, well so be it...I don't have inordinate amounts of time to research peoples stories and post all the time. I continue to respond where I see fit, but I will keep my keyboard and comments outta your threads, because my intent was not to harm.

Sorry again. But trust, I am waiting to tell you whatever it is you want to know about my story.

One other thing Nina, I did go back and read everything to see where you thought I was so bitter and I dont see it? Care to point it out to me, so I won't repeat the bitterness in future?

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Freshie ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by swan's song:
[QB]flame me if you want to. I do not have kids so take what i say with a grain of salt but freshie and randy maybe you should READ all of Nina post instead of just going by this one.

Swan,

I have known Jacki for over two years...and I have sat up all night with her on occasion.

My point stays the same. Move on and move up....or stay stuck in the mire. We all have that choise given the rotten circumstances we have all been forced to deal with.

The experience I talk about of being a child stuck in the middle of two battling parents..is my own life. I know what it was like...it was horrible....I know it because I lived it.

And Jacki I didnt mean to say anything to hurt you personally....Im just looking at it from less close than you are. And at one point in my life ...I was in the position your son now finds himself in. Im telling you how hard it was on me. His attitudes are the reflection of his environment. I know you didnt start or want this situation.

Im telling you that my divorced parents hated each right up until my fathers death this Summer.

Even as a young boy I felt I had to choose sides....Im telling you that in the end I disliked my mother and my father for not letting it go. I have sad memories of past holidays, because it was always...well what did your useless father get you for Christmas and visa versa....and thats a blatent example...usually the tension was much more subtle...but even as a small boy I picked up on it every time.

It was a horrible childhood.

I say let it go...move on. Its been long enough. Sorry if you dont like that. I have always and only wanted you to be happy again Jacki. Come on you know me. Do you just want me to tell you...Oh you poor hurting dear? Thats not being a friend.

I love you...and I want you and yours to be happy. Its that simple.

Love and light to you Petal.

Randy

Randy I see where you are coming from, but semi-like you (father died when I was young) but I grew up in a household where I was emotiopnally abused by my older sister, maybe its not the same but for me felt like my hurts where never taken into consideration and where I felt invisible and small in all things that went on in my life
as a child, and for people to tell Nina to just let it go for me is not right. Just because he is a parent does not give him the right to emotionally abuse his kids and from my point of view that is what is going on. He is bullying his kids into doing something they do not want to. Sorry but I stand by my point of view. I think Nina has let it go