Just so there are no mis-understandings on my part. As I said I think WS's can become some of the greatest and strongest people when they repent of there former deeds and renew there mind and try to understand themselves and take responsibility for there actions. That's who helped me when my exww had her A's, changed and repented WS's, so I know what a WS can turn out to be. My previous post to BB were not bashing, I hope I gave her some insight how she could take the emotional load off herself and become stronger and stop her guilt, but blaming and pointing the finger without taking FULL responsibility only keeps you in a position of "You owe me".....

I think a WS can sweep a BS off there feet if they studied and did there homework. I think they have a chance to repair there relationship if each surrendered all weapons of war.

Sue with Hope, it was I who posted some of Porsches links to show that there is a BS here trying to recover. Indeed has tried for many months to recover, the story goes back further than that. (Though for some reason all the threads are then deleted). I don't think skimming one link is enough to make up your mind about these two.

No one is trying to bash BB here (Christine you gotta change that name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) but what we are seeing is a WS with no remorse. I see personally no alternatives to what Porsche has been doing - in fact I personally don't know what else could be done.

Additionally as he appears to be in Plan B this just looks like an attempt to communicate with him. There thats $0.02 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: softman ]</small>

Christine would have more empathy if only she would NOT have the gall to try to justify all of her betrayals to Neil and say all these other men she's lived with after she left her home, are nothing more than 'friends' giving her comfort and support. Isn't it kind of odd that all her so called 'friends' just happened to be men, who just opened their homes to her out of the goodness of their own hearts?

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hi Christine

I'll start by saying two things - firstly I am a FWS and secondly I have posted many times to Neil and followed your story.

When I came here, all I received from people such as CoffeMan, RH, and many others was compassion and support. Occassionaly some idiot will jump in who doesn't know my story and virtually accuses me of being a slapper, but hey, it doesn't happen often. Do you know why I received so much support? Because I was honest and remorseful. My situation has developed to the point that actually people like RH even want to go and bash my BS over the head with a 4x2. I think the English thing to say would be something like "I'd like to hit my H around the head with a wet kipper" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So, Christine, if you want help, would you mind if I ask you a couple of questions:

1. Did you post here because you want to save your M to Neil, and rebuild a loving home for you and your girls?
2. If so, are you truly remorseful for your A's (and sorry I disagree with Sue, H and I are still married, and he is seeing someone else. Only 1 person out of many does not see this as an A), and willing to work out why you took that path rather than blame Neil for the issues you saw as being wrong in your M? Frankly, my H lived away for 2 years and I was pretty damn lonely, but it still wasn't a reason to have an A, NOTHING and I mean nothing can justify why I had my A.
3. I know that you were abused as a child, and have self-harming issues, which I am truly sorry for you, but have you been having regular councilling and taking your medication? Only you can work on that part of yourself, and it must be terribly painful to do so.

I remember Neil posting about money that he actually gave you towards expenses etc. and it seemed rather more than you suggested. I remember thinking at the time, what an awful lot it was, but then that his Solicitor had agreed more. Are you being completely honest with us?

Also, are you suggesting that Neil is having his own A, because he had someone at the house at Christmas, or was this someone among a group of many?

Christine, noone wants to deliberately do you down, but if you are not honest and don't want to rebuild your M, why are you here? Is it because Neil is currently not communicating with you?

Neil admitted to one of the texts he sent - he wasn't proud about it, but frankly that's minor compared to some of the verbal abuse I took from my H, and you know what, a lot of it I deserved.

Noone has suggested you are a bad Mum, but you have made some poor choices in relation to your behaviour around your kids. Neil has only ever supported that you have kids, even though others on this board have queried if that is the right decision.

Softman, fyi, Neil deleted a lot of the posts because Christine was upset by them.

Sue, I suggest you read more of the links, including the two most recent about Neil's further efforts to recover the M which were turned down by Christine and his discovery of OM4, through his daughter, so you know a bit more of this story - it's a very sad and difficult one.

Come on Christine, where are you? Come back and answer some of the questions that people have put to you. If you can do it honestly and without anger, you may be surprised at the support you get.

Lisa

There are alot of Borderline traits in her posts here, especially the inability to set boundaries within herself, and the desire to protect the self versus the shame and self hurt of admitting responsibility. . . .

Borderlines have little understanding/empathy of the effect that they have on other people, because the defense of their self as their goal is a driving force.

If you notice, the sounds of a rationalizing child is really the call of the borderline. . . the entitlement expectations, etc. . . but seldom do borderlines exist alone, without similarities to other disorders, narcissism, OCD, hedonism, are common, as they are disordered ways of making the self feel good. . . .

and high functioning people are ones that are hard to identifying having the tendencies, since they cover it up so well.

good luck everyone,

but remember, logic seldom works in this situation, although you can try. . . remember, you validate their feelings by getting them to identify with your persuasion, and then you hand them back to them to take responsibility for them, and maybe then you can get some progress on realization of responsibility. . ..

read my examples to HitchHiker about seemingly innocuous examples of responsibility avoidance.

wiftty

Bump. Christine please don't leave it like this. There is much support here for you to take if you want it.

Christine,

Lisa and others raise some valid points. Please post again. How are you?

Deluded

How am I? totally crushed by many of the comments here and the feeling that you think of me as such an awful person.

I cannot even think of what to reply.

Yes i did want to rebuild my M and i did ask to go home and i knelt on the floor crying for hours truly sorry for the pain that i had caused and the self harm and suicide, not just because of the child abuse but because of the terrible thing that i did to my family. and am i repentant yes, i went through hell too, and i saw the pain and hurt and devastation that i had caused.

And OM4 No not at all.

Counselling ? I have no money for that i can just about eat. And yes the money neil gives seems a lot but you have to see that it is less than a childminder gets and approximately one days wages for neil. I put my career on the back burner for 13 years to look after the family and now i am lucky if i can earn a tenth of what neil was bringing home a year!

Remorse, is there to see in the scars that i have on my arms legs and chest.

BPD traits, yes i have traits but i do not have BPD.

Neil is truly a wonderful man and a great dad but he knows where things went wrong and i dont need to air them here. He was not a bad person we just stopped being married a long time ago.

Its very painful and i have made stupid stupid mistakes i dont need that rammed down my throat. I am not a child abuser i love my children and they are happy with me. I left them with neil so he could provide a secure home for them which at the time i knew i could not. I left them out of respect for him amd his wishes, I left htem there so that he would not die like i have.

I dont know if i could ever make this work every day i waited for him to come and knock on my door and asks me to come home with no accusations, no harsh works, no ' but you did this or that' It never happenened. I think it is too late we are both too hurt and i could never hurt him again.

i wish i had not posted here, i wish that i had not been obssessed with what neil was posting right back in the beginning because it hurt and i knew that it was my fault.

i tried to justify myself, to show you that there are two sides. that although there is no excuse for betrayal there are reasons why it happens.

I am sorry and i hope that you all find the peace that everyone deserves, i am sorry that neil could not always vent here because of me.

I Know that when the pain passes he will find a wonderful person who he can share his life with and they will be spoilt like a princess.
I wish you all well
Christine BINBAG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by binbag:
<strong>How am I? totally crushed by many of the comments here and the feeling that you think of me as such an awful person.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome back Christine, I refuse to use your logon name. I do not think of you as an awful person. You are hurt and you are angry and you are sad but not awful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yes i did want to rebuild my M and i did ask to go home</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But there is Divorce now is there not? I tried as your H did and I am divorced. It is not an easy journey either way but I would have wanted her to reconcile at any step along the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Neil is truly a wonderful man and a great dad but he knows where things went wrong and i dont need to air them here. He was not a bad person we just stopped being married a long time ago.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So am I right to understand that it's not worth fighting for?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Its very painful and i have made stupid stupid mistakes i dont need that rammed down my throat.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may feel like that here, but I am sure that is no ones intent. We are here to support you wherever you go onto now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am not a child abuser i love my children and they are happy with me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not be so harsh, these words were not said. OM4 was a pretty big mistake though as you said. No one mentioned you were an abuser.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I dont know if i could ever make this work every day i waited for him to come and knock on my door and asks me to come home with no accusations, no harsh works, no ' but you did this or that' It never happenened. I think it is too late we are both too hurt and i could never hurt him again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Christine you both have so much hurt it is impractical to think that it would work that way. Are you familiar with MB's principles? You should not have the previous M - in fact you cannot. You need to work on a new M. Otherwise the old pain will be back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i wish i had not posted here, i wish that i had not been obssessed with what neil was posting right back in the beginning because it hurt and i knew that it was my fault. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then fight for it, don't let it die, divorce is crushing, believe me I know. Why not at least try to post more here and get support?

My $0.02. Not worth squat in this day and age.

<small>[ January 23, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: softman ]</small>

Christine,

My W is getting ready to start posting on MB, there are a lot of good people that can help you with the Question's you have, as I know they will be able to help my W.

I have vowed not to post on my W's thread's, unless she need's a response from me, I will read her post, but I will not discuss what she write's as she has allowed me total freedom to post on MB, and know's I do vent at time's.

You are not alone in the world, there is much you can learn, and there is much you can teach to people that are also stuggling with these same issue's.

Your last post has already helped me.

Hello Christine , I am sorry to hear you sounding so low and hopeless.

There are things you could do that would have helped your situation -have you been to MC with Neil,for a start? If not,why not?

Are you currently seeing a counsellor and is it helping?

Financially, are you not working-I thought you managed a Nursing Home-you mentioned being proud-and rightly so-of managing to still work.

Have you read and considered MB principles? Neil has more or less adhered faithfully to them.

I am so sorry to read your story. I hope you get some help from this forum.

Regards,
Deluded

Christine, also others could benefit from your help if you feel you could give it. That is also a benefit of the board here. Sometimes helping others can be a big help to oneself.

Take a look at Dredswife's thread HERE, she too is suffering like you have.

Christine,

Why don't you ask neil to delay the Dv and get conseling with MB ?. I do not think both of you are far apart ... both of you wanting a better M, every single M should be a fullfilling one. The questions is how to get there .... I really do beleive that both of you should get conseling from MB. I do not beleive neil will object to that and you hould ask him to delay Dv or even cancel it for now.

I saw you have come a long way to post here, actually it is good. We don't take side we only support the one that tries to safe M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Neil is truly a wonderful man and a great dad but he knows where things went wrong and i dont need to air them here. He was not a bad person we just stopped being married a long time ago.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ditto Nina too .. is he worth fighting for ?. There are help out there for trouble M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Its very painful and i have made stupid stupid mistakes i dont need that rammed down my throat. I am not a child abuser i love my children and they are happy with me. I left them with neil so he could provide a secure home for them which at the time i knew i could not. I left them out of respect for him amd his wishes, I left htem there so that he would not die like i have.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WW said almost the samething but you know that your place is at home w/ your children not with OM#n.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I dont know if i could ever make this work every day i waited for him to come and knock on my door and asks me to come home with no accusations, no harsh works, no ' but you did this or that' It never happenened. I think it is too late we are both too hurt and i could never hurt him again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After 4 OM and might be going for #5, why couldn't you knock on his door ?. You want to be M or to be right but Dv and miserable ?. If both of you are hurt then there are more reason to delay your Dv ... you should not hurt neil, you should love him. The only reason for his plan B/NC is to protect whatever love left for you from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i wish i had not posted here, i wish that i had not been obssessed with what neil was posting right back in the beginning because it hurt and i knew that it was my fault. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again all of us capable of making mistake but very few are capable of fixing it. If this Dv is going ahead, it will be your fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i tried to justify myself, to show you that there are two sides. that although there is no excuse for betrayal there are reasons why it happens.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me ask you ... those reasons are they still exist in neil ? is he making changes to correct it ?.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am sorry and i hope that you all find the peace that everyone deserves, i am sorry that neil could not always vent here because of me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't need to be sorry ... he still could vent in his post and you could vents on yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I Know that when the pain passes he will find a wonderful person who he can share his life with and they will be spoilt like a princess.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HERE IS THE JACKPOT ... I do beleive HE STILL WANT YOU TO BE THAT PRINCESS ... the question is ARE YOU WILLING ?. You know what to do ... follows "HOW A SHOULD ENDS". DO NOT PILE UP MISTAKE WITH MISTAKES. Both of you already admit the mistakes now it is the time to correct them.

-rh-

Christine,

I know I cannot tell you what to do, but I know you want your family, and your HUSBAND, please do not let fear rule your life, you have to trust someone.
And there is noone better than your husband, no one, do not let anyone else abuse YOU, the past does not have to dictate the future, you have the power, you alway's have, you have the strength, you alway did, use it now for what you want, create the family you have only dreamed of, and Neil will be there for how you want him to be.

DO NOT LET THE CYCLE OF ABUSE CONTINUE.

bump ^^^

Hi Christine,

I have read your posts and see that much of what is being said here has hurt you to read. It has hurt my H to read what I wrote also.

Unfortunately, what I wrote here was true. Yes it was my version of it and but was and is true. So hard to know that our family's have had to suffer because of bad decisions made by those we love.

Am I guilty of some portion of our marriage where it fell apart and in some sense led my H out the door to seek companionship from OWs? yes. I worked 60 - 80 hours a week for years. Why? I am dedicated to doing a good job in all aspects of my life and sad to say, the place that suffered the most was my homelife.

I could handle the stress but my H could not. He knew when we married that I was already in a very stressful job......well it only got worse workwise from there. After a while others (in-laws) came to dump their personal issues on our doorstep.....MIL even asked to move in with us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The list goes on.

But Christine, nothing jolted me more than the pain my family suffered. My H was not a communicator. A quality lacking in many men but not all. MB is has many H's that want so much to communicate with their W's and just don't know how. We wives have a tendancy to 'make them pay' and it confuses them. We don't do it to our sons but we sure do it to our H's.

In light of the above, how would you feel if your son was treated as you treated your H? Or how would you feel if someone treated your daughter as your H treated you? Then remember that we are all someone's children also and the pain in our family's are felt outside as well as inside.

We can never escape the pain. We can try but never really escape it. So it is better to acknowledge it, learn how to work on it, then work on it and heal.

You and your H have damage in your family and personal relationship. Is it beyond repair? Well from what you posted here and what I have read before from your H's postings, IMHO, I believe if you both can come to a single healthy goal for you as a couple and as a family, then it is salvagable.

If it isn't you really have to wonder whether you have what it takes to have any kind of relationship, even with your children. Our children see our examples and use us as role models for the good and bad. In other words, we will influence their lives.

I hope this message reaches you and your H.

I wish you both well in the future and hope you can both work on your differences and work towards a good recovery.

take care,
L..

Bump ... ^^^^

Christine maybe you could help here?

Christine -

I just want to say that I feel for you and I am thankful for an opportunity to post to you. I've been praying for you for a long time.

I'm so sorry for all of the pain that you have suffered. It is so tragic that the ones that are supposed to protect and love us are the ones that can hurt us the most. I hope that you come back and talk to everyone here who seems to care about you so much.

I know we are seeing it very simply and it is always more complicated BUT what it boils down to is that your main complaints with Neil are that 1)he spends too much time on the computer (not an insurmountable problem), 2)He's angry at your infidelity and unwillingness to work on your own recovery and the recovery of your marriage.

Now, doesn't THAT seem like very little to divorce over? PC use is negotiable, the pain of infidelity can be overcome with hard work and commitment (there are so many examples here on this website) and love can be rediscovered.

I know the two of you have HUGE issues that MUST be dealt with. But Neil's seeing a marriage counselor. Why aren't you there with him, even just so the two of you can learn how to communicate and parent together?

You seem to be allowing the awful people who have abused you continue to have the power to destroy you. Why? Why are you allowing them to continue to dictate your behaviors?

Face your fears. Face your life. You know yourself what a good man Neil is. You know that you are searching for another Neil, someone to love you, take care of you BUT he is one in a million. You thought you could just go out and get another one, one who you didn't have this history with. Now you know that isn't going to happen, don't you? Deep down, you know that.

These children need you and they want you and their father together. You will have to be courageous. You will have to be strong. So will Neil. There is a lot of pain here. But I believe you can do it and I know you owe it to yourself and to your family. And you can lean on each other.

Don't let them run your life anymore - don't let the abusers win. I will continue to pray for you.

bump