than you for the good suggestions, but just remember, dealing with a parent that does not parenting, and wants the kids to sooth her, and sees the kids as something to spoil to be in competition with me.

never could she admit or believe that she, the all knowing, can be manipulated by daughter.

Have you asked your ex if your schedules can be altered where you can the same amount of days per year but some are better for your daughter where she can have sleepovers?

I know you say she's unreasonable, but if she would, then there'd be your compromise.

If ex won't, I would just tell daughter ex won't compromise on the days, don't make yourself out to be the bad guy. Tell her the truth.

ANNA

This is how conversations go.

4:30 PM Dad: “When can I have A for my weekend?”
X: “I am unsure”
Dad:”What does that mean?”
X: ”I am unsure”

no progress there, i talk with daughter, A:

Dad: “Have I ever said that you can’t have sleep overs at my house?”
A: “No.”
Dad: “Have you ever asked me if you can have sleep overs?”
A: “No, but Dad, I can’t have sleep overs at my house here where I live most of the time, except on your weekends or in the summer.”
Dad:” A, that’s between you and your Mom”
A: silence.
Dad:” A, that’s between you and your Mom”
I let her have some silence, and time and then said good bye, but would call back.

5:30 PM I called X, and asked her to listen to how I handled a blended family type problem over the summer where in my case A&A were not getting enough attention because of the other family’s behavior. We split up and had family time activities of our own, separate, and A&A were much better. X says she is talking with A about it right now.

6:45 PM I called again, asking “When can I have A?”
X:”I am working on it! I will call you back later.”
Dad: “Okay, that’s fine.”
X:” Do you have soccer on Friday night because if you do I can take A because she does not want to go.”
Dad:” Would you let A talk to me about this?”
X:”I suppose I am wrong again. But why does everything have to go through you, the Grand PooPah?”
Dad:” It doesn’t, but people have to talk to me directly, not through other people. A needs to talk to me about this”
X: “Why does everyone get in trouble when I tell A to tell you where to take her?”
Dad: “Because you need to talk to me as a parent.”

End of example

X does not like this, never has, always avoids it like the plague. Talking directly to me means she doesn't get her way just because she opens her mouth.

My first issue of poor communication:
No one over there talks directly, everyone uses everyone else, and I get irritated when people talk for other people. I want the person with the concern talk to me, directly so that I can discuss the situation with them directly, and find out what bothers them directly. Only that person can have an intelligent discussion.

Example, X for A: X will talk for A about schedules at my house, not allowing A and I to talk it out and work through the problem. The issue being discussed is how my time and A's time is spent at my house, and that is between A and me, X speaking for A is not allowing A and I to solve our problem.

Example. A for X: X tells A to tell me, in my presence, what to do with A. Parents make the schedules and the arrangements, and talk as the responsible parties, not the kids. If there is a change, the parent making the change needs to talk to the other parent, not put the kids in the middle.
The result is everyone learns conflict avoidance, and does not learn how to speak for themselves, or solve problems themselves.

My Second issue X does not need to put me down when A can hear on the phone, that is very disrespectful of the other parent. Making fun of me wanting respect in communications only serves to undermine me when I am trying to get people to communicate directly.

Some people just don't get it, no matter what. You still explain it to them, time after time, doesn't matter.

Plan B? i love it. I wish i had never met that person ever in my life.

She loves to hear one sided stories, and only believe her kids. Complains that i am difficult to talk to. I agree, because i want the respect of not having snide comments and remarks made to me because C isn't getting what she wants. I am difficult because i don't just give her whatever she wants, and can defend my point of view, and can neutralize hers. mostly MB stuff anyway, nothing deep.

i just wish i could collect on some life insurance . . . . . any accident will do. .. .

wiftty

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

Wiffty,

Since my question wasn't really answered and you didn't address your last post to anyone, I am not sure if that was in answer to my post or someone else's...

I wouldn't say, "When am I getting A?" I would say "I will get A such and such date unless today you come up with a better date, if you don't, I will be at your door steps at this date." AND then I would do just that.

When they want to change schedules, I would say, "I will change this night with you, if you agree to let me have them on this date. Be specific. Add if I end up not getting daughter on the replaced date, don't ask for changes again.

Your ex is wrong to make fun of you, but are you listening to what she is saying by making fun of how you talk to her. You may not be able to change this by just saying, "Don't do this." but you can ask... Why is she making fun of you? There could possibly be changes your could make in your approach that would minimize her making fun.

My ex use to say in highschool, kids made fun of him and he had to learn to talk on an average level. He used words and terms that people just didn't use and to stop the teasing, he had to stop.

I see him reverting back to his highschool years and using those terms again and it is annoying, although I don't make fun of him, I just ignore it and stick with the issues.

I don't know if you are doing this or something else that is getting under her skin, but it is worth investigating...Change you...

Perhaps appealing to your daughters logical side is a good approach to use with your daughter, my sons respond better when I use logic...for instance say, "Mom gets you 70% (add in correct %) of the time, I get to see you 30% of the time. The percentage is so low on my side, I hate giving up my time with you by giving up days...

About your last comment of collecting life insurance and any accident will do...IMHO That's just not funny wiffty.

Take care,

ANNA

Anna

doesn't matter what approach i use, if its direct with her, She will revert to what A wants. I tried that, and she responded with "You can't just tell me when you will get A." "I tried using the agreement, and she says, "I have to go check with my L or with A."

I have to treat her as a child who has learned to get her way and attention by just sitting down and doing nothing until she gets it. And one who never has to take responsibility for herself, but will love to take responsibility for others.

Unless I can get the contempt of court on her, so that she learns to respect the agreement. She was very agreeable in the beginning, our agreement is "by agreement"

X says right out, "I will support the kids in whatever they want" even if it is bad behavior, breaking the rules, etc. I have seen this behavior, time and time again. She will only believe what she wants to, by concocting reasons that really don't have any logic, but to her they serve her purpose.

Would you like to read about her behavior to an almost absolute per fect descripton?

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

the only one that doesn't fit is "lack of sense of humor." she has a good one as long as it is putting someone down.

File the contempt.
Make sure your visitation is iron clad.
I'm finding your input to be very insitful to my situation. I thank you for this.
I don't want to behave this way. I can see how my children are trying to manipulate the visitation and am being direct with them about their honesty to me and their father.
I know they want to please both of us and don't have the ability to understand this because of their ages.
I delt with this just yesterday. I made my child come clean with me and do the right thing by her father.
The hard part is knowing when they are being honest. My H has been very manipulative and abusive to all of us.
I'm finding that I can effectivly stand up for myself with him without overeacting. Petty fights are avoided by Plan B and only speaking to him about the children through email. This way I don't fall into trap of manipulation. It just doesn't work. Also, this shows the court that I am having contact with him. The dates and times are on the email. I even know if he's opened it.
It's too easy for them to get under our skin and react. Defence mode, then we get upset, blah, blah, blah.
Try what I do. Send her and email. Keep it direct and factual. No emotion unless it is light and funny. If she's gonna blow,she's gonna blow. Save it all. If she doesn't all the better. She will learn to communicate with you by your example.
God Bless.

Aly

Aly,

My parenting time is not iron clad,
that is what has to change, its just that at the same time, i am about to move where i won't be able to fulfill the current visitation schedule without a job, either.

My X is very needy, and manipulative. She will say anything to get what she wants, logic is not part of her thinking. Her need to feel wanted or important far outweighs any other EN on the list. She will take any opportunity to save someone from the punishment of self responsibility, including some of her students.

I would like to file a contempt charge, and have asked my attorney to figure out how, but since i am not paying his bills either, unless i get a job, which i have for about 2-3 weeks at the moment, just came in. . . .

will only get me caught up on his bill. I asked for a CS reduction because i was running into a problem in September, filed in October, now, i am getting heard. . . doesn't help when you are paying out at a rate equal to the rent, and i live in one of the most expensive regions of the country. . . and i haven't worked more than 5 weeks in the last year, and unemployment has run out.

so put no job stresses with a child that does n't want to see me because of her mother, and its a tad bit stressful.

wiftty

Wiffty,

Why not try this..let ex talk for A when A is at her home, when you pick up A, ask her if there is something else she would like to do...and talk directly to her..

Just let her know when she is with you..her opinion counts..and what she wants matters to you..

Is what I mean is...go ahead and say Okay we can do that..and then when you get A, ask her if that is REALLY what she wants to do...if not..make other plans based on what the two of you want to do..and later if her mom asks her how whatever went she can say, "oh we changed our minds and decided to XYZ instead"

And take the time to talk to A, and let her know that your relationship with her is between the two of you..and she can tell her mother that..she can say something like..

"Mom, I love you, but my relationship with dad is just that, MY RELATIONSHIP with dad, the only time you have anything to say about what dad and I do with "our" time together, is when it concerns you directly like when he's picking me up, or bringing me home"

And also let A know that when her mom starts bad mouthing you in front of her, she can ask her mom to stop--say something like

"He is MY dad, and I don't have to listen to you bad mouth him, let me make up my own decision about dad based on MY relationship with him--

TR,

good suggestions. . .

thanks

Thornrose,
I like your suggestions. They are great. I think the problem is, this woman is so unreasonable. It's always about her. Her dramma.
It's hard to believe that someone could be this way but believe you me I know this behavior first hand. The more you try, the more you add to the dramma.
The other thing is, you never want to put children up to anything. They need to stay out of as much as possible. This is the job of the counselor to intervien. She should be going at least once every two weeks. The counselor works for the court. It's the counselors job to advise her on what she can do and to teach her how to deal with the problems. The counselor will also inform the court of any problems if he/she needs to. This is the best protection for the child, for now and in the future.
Dude,
You know this. You've got to get a job. Do you think you are in need of meds? This doesn't sound like who you really are. You sound like you are well educated and have been well employed in the past. What's going on with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Are you all right? I know I'm setting myself up for a vent, that's O.K. have at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aly

Wifft,

I hope you take her back to court soon and I hope you get this all straightened out. I don't know what it would feel like to have someone have that much power over me regarding my children. I wish the one who gets the majority of custody would put themselves in the other persons shoes. It's just wrong!

ANNA

Not a quick opinion, and really an opinion from the other other side. I'm thinking back to when my parents split. I was lucky enough (?) to be old enough to arrange my own schedule.

Your daughter isn't. So, let's think about long-term goals here. 1) You don't give a bleep what your X thinks of you. And from what you say, her bad opinion is a compliment. 2) You do want to come out of the next 5 years with a strong relationship with your daughter. 3) You want to raise a healthy, well balanced young woman. I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I think I'm on safe ground.

So, I remember being horribly afraid of hurting my father adn being put on guilt trip. If I didn't see him enough, if I didn't return his calls quickly enough. Now, from other posts, you know his behavior was out of line. But, I think your A. needs to know that even though she disappoints you in wanting to spend time with friends, etc, you understand.

I think too being confident in your children's love for you actually stregnthens the bond.

(Oh, dear. I find myself always wondering if I'm being rough around the edges, or not communicating well.)

Anyway, get a court order. Be flexible with A., but a ridgid rock with your x. So, basically if A askes X days in advance, maybe you could consider trading days.

I hear an underlying concern that your X will be such a bad influence on A that A will be ruined. Don't put any money on that one. You set the example you know you can, and she'll follow. Kids have a super-sensitive BS detector. X is unable to escape it.

One other note: I know you hate people being disrespectful. But you got a 10 year old girl with hormones jsut starting to get out of wack, and a 13 year old boy. You want respect, you've got to earn it every step of the way. And you've got to give it. I believe from about 12-17 disrespect is the default mode.

And keep your sense of humor. If your wife is nasty to you in your daughter's hearing, guess who goes down in D's estimation? She does.

All this is from the point of view of someone who's been close to your daughter's position. And naturally, I could be way off base.

thanks

I just picked up my son, and i have been very hard on him, not taking any DJ, BS, and he has made a huge turn around after getting into one of the top schools in the country. He is much calmer after working very hard, and being well respected.

He is doing exceedingly well, beyond my wildest dreams, and he is using the learning techniques that i showed him very successfully. . .

In other words, if he didn't follow the communication agreements we made, he lost his saturday night sleep over privileges. I told him about how i had the same problem, its just a learning experience. Although he screws up every once in a while, now its mostly a matter of last minute unavoidable changes, mostly beyond his control. I understand on that issue.

He has become more responsible and we have great conversations. i just give him attitude adjustment talks every once in awhile to help him keep perspective, and he is great.

The problem is that my X is a gender warrior, so the daughter is her prize. I told X the other day about my values being posted, expectations etc, and she groaned with frustration, because she thinks i am being controlling and rigid. they are mostly MB values, so i laugh, and the counselor agrees with them so far.

But GG, thank you for that insight. D came home and said that at school they had the talk about becoming a woman. So i asked her what she learned, and she was shy. so i kept gently asking, and she finally got a slightly bit embarrassed, so i said, "You learned about nipples, boobs, and your crotch!" she laughed, and i told her that its OK to talk that way in the family, just not in public. I also showed her the pads i have had for a year, waiting for the moment and any accidents. that was helpful for her, i don't think she expected any of that, especially the pads already.

yes, i must remember about the hormones. Although i don't always think i do very well against the X. i think she is a very disgusting coach when she plays huggy kissy face with daughter during soccer games, like while coaching. I have yet to see one other coach like that.

Daughter is here and i have not talked with her, although she gets emails from me regularly, and we will go back to IM ing after i explain to her how upset and hurt i was. Remember, she gets everything she wants at her mom's house, and not as much here. . . so i am not sure how well i get heard. . . because X is very seductive and manipulative, and comes from a long line of competitive spouses and manipulators, we will see.

yes, i get frustrated with her, she drives me bat sschit crazy, and truthfully, she doesn't get it, really honestly, has no clue.

wiftty

Aly,

Actually, those suggestions came from MY childrens counselor, and mine..it's to help the kids learn how to speak up for themselves..and help the kids learn how to set boundaries..within their seperate families..yet still be respectful
to the other parent..

it helps you learn to step out of the other parents relationship with the child--and let them learn how to build their own relationship..one that works best for them--

And as the parent..this is something HE can and should help his children learn to do..as it will also help them later in life..in other relationships--

It will help them learn that others can't choose their friends for them, and that it's okay to like someone even if others don't..(including your parents)

it will also help them learn to be confident in their own decisions--

Wiffty,

That is great that you talked to your daughter about those things and let her know that you have
personal items for her at your home as well..

Something I would suggest though..is for you to learn how to talk about those personal issues less crudely..use proper terms..like breasts--
teach her that these are private areas of her body and that men should talk to her respectfully

Girls her age..look to how their fathers talk about such things..more so than how their mothers talk about such things..because their fathers are the MALE figure in their life..in whom all other Men they meet and date are judged..

So something to ask yourself..is how do "I" as her father want the men my daughter dates and the man, she one day marries to talk to and treat her??

Do I want her to accept men talking crudely and abusively to her? or do I want her to "EXPECT" them to treat her with honor and respect?

And yes, it's something she should "expect" because if she doesn't 'expect' to be treated w/
honor and respect, she will accept any type of treatment from a man..even abuse..

good point. . . .

thanks

Wifty,

Your welcome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

--- i think she is a very disgusting coach when she plays huggy kissy face with daughter during soccer games, like while coaching. I have yet to see one other coach like that.

TR- Okay, now, Your ex-wife isn't other coaches, she's her--and she's also NOT YOU!! If she want's to play kissy face w/ daughter at the games then that's just her..just let your daughter know that if 'SHE' IS uncomfortable with it..then she can ask her mom not to do that at the games..

Just because it's disgusting to you..and you feel it's not appropraite..doesn't mean your daughter minds her mom showing her affection like that..again that's one of those relationship things--her relationship is different than your relationship w/ your daughter..just learn to accept it, and maybe even learn to look at it differently...like maybe mom wants A to know that even if she isn't playing the best she can, she's out still out their giving it a shot and having fun..

--Remember, she gets everything she wants at her mom's house, and not as much here. . . so i am not sure how well i get heard. . . because X is very seductive and manipulative, and comes from a long line of competitive spouses and manipulators, we will see.

TR- Don't worry about the 'things' she gets at her mom's..only concern yourself with what you can provide her..like your time..

things are fleeting and can be lost in an instant..but the memories built through giving your time..last forever..

My ex buy's our kids all sorts of 'things' when they are with him..but he doesn't spend 'time' with them..like for instance he'll take them to the bowling alley to bowl, and he sits in the bar and drinks with his brother..while the kids bowl..
then they come home and complain that he didn't spend any time with them..I say, yeah, but he took you to do this or that..and they just say yeah..but he wasn't there..he was off doing his own thing..and we didn't spend any "time" with him..he was always off with his brother..

So try not to look at all the 'things' she gives them...it's the 'time' and 'attention' they really like..

--yes, i get frustrated with her, she drives me bat sschit crazy, and truthfully, she doesn't get it, really honestly, has no clue.--

TR- And you know what, it's not your place to teach her that..she'll have to learn that on her own..and yes, one day she will--and you will one day be able to look back and see how many memories you and your kids have spending time together..playing games, listening to music, watching movies, and just talking and sharing in each others lives..

have you ever put on some music and danced around the living room w/ your kids? teaching your daughter how to slow dance? or watching them dance with each other?

have you ever sat down and built a card house together? that is funny..but it can be used to teach how relationships work --

Let them build one alone..and see how high they can build it..and then work together on one and see how high it can get..see which one is better..

Play a game of war, or spades, play board games together..and build those memories..those are the things that are priceless..

Set up a game night when you have the kids, or make a date night..rent a movie and pop popcorn
and sit down together many times on the floor, we get some blankets and pillows and just enjoy laughing and or crying together about the movie..

Something else I do, is sit down and watch tv with my kids, and ask them questions about the shows they enjoy..my daughters love The Gilmore Girls, my son likes cartoons, so I curl up on the couch next to them and we watch it together..

I realize you don't pray and believe in God, but something else we do, is at dinner, we hold hands and pray together..it's not something we have always done, but it's something we've started..
and they make sure to say something if someone starts to eat before we've prayed..and the person who took the first bite..is the one who prays that night..

but it's those little things like that..that create the memories which last a life time..

TR -

She might drive me crazy, but i don't say anything to her or criticize her to my daughter. . . but i do say, these are the rules in my house. . . and i have them listed out. . .

But here is an example of how she won't take a leadership role over children. She is an EMT, they are big into safety. At today's soccer game, she is the coach, U12 girls, and I am a long time referee but not the game referee. She asks me my opinion if a kid can play with hair beads. I say no, and explain that if the bead whips around, it can hit someone else in the eye, so absolutely not. I use my authoritative referee tone which tells coaches that its not their decision by law, and i don't bend on player safety. She gets pissy at me, and then asks the referee of the game. The 11 yo player would not put the hair beads into a ponytail to at least keep the beads from whipping around, because it would wreck the braids.

So what do you think she does? nothing, ignores safety advice, and just does whatever the child wants, which, in my opinion, even puts the eyes of our own child at risk. But i do not say anything. AFterwards, i told her why i use my authoritative voice, to keep uncooperative coaches from trying to negotiate special exemptions under the rules, basically, coaches that dont' want to accept the rules, but want to play by their rules. .. see what i mean. . .

yes, i do at least 50% of your suggestions anyway. . . I just have more structure and required manners and discipline here, that the kids don't like as well, and they will not grow up to be selfish people, like my X. remember, my X eats with her hands half the time, serves meat with her hands, etc. . . and scoffs at me for wanting manners. . . . she can do whatever she wants, but at minimum ACTIVELY support the agreement. . .

wiftty

Geez, this person that used to be my wife is just i don't know what. . .

I play Hi - Lo with my kids at dinner time, what was your High experience for the week and the lowest experience for the week. So the kids ask me, and i was honest, my low was i was waiting for my daughter to show up at riding lessons since she was at my X's house, X knows about the lessons, and all kinds of crap was screwed up. . .

so i drop her off this morning at X's house as usual, and i get a phone call from X. X said daughter said that my lowest low of my LIFE was that i was waiting for her to show up at lessons. X said that she finds that offensive. huh? X says that there was no plan. huh? did she call me? i told her i was waiting on advice from my lawyer on legal issue after what daughter told me. Which i am sure X suggested to daughter to say.

Supid me, i explained what we were doing, and then again, i told her that we need to be consistent and make agreements, stick to them, and follow the agreement. Then she had to go. . .

I am upset, my daughter is turning down a party that she clearly wanted to go to as of Thursday, and then decided she didn't want to go because she was afraid that i wouldn't return her to X's house because it was my week, and she didn't want to go. So then she doesn't show up to riding lessons, i am upset, and X finds that offensive??

WhoTF does she think she is to tell me what she finds offensive in my conversations with my daughter???

i don't even recognize this person anymore.. . .

wiftty

TR,
I just caught up. I totally agree with the concept of what you are saying. The child needs to learn to understand what she wants and learn how to set her boundries.
My only concern is if the mother hears these words coming from her child she will know the father told her to, or how to, say this. This will just add to the drama for the mother.
I would suggest he take her to the counselor and speak to the counselor about this problem. Take the opportunity to say these kinds of things in front of the counselor so he has a wittness. This way if the mother asks why she is telling her this and where she heard this from, she can say her father told her when they were at the counselor's office. She can also tell her the counselor's opinion on the matter. This will help her stand up to the mother more effectively.
If the mother has a problem she can take it up with the counselor and leave dad out.
Does that make sense?
This will also show the counselor what kind of father he is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aly