"Not to mention the selfishness of a man or a society who would expect a woman to be celibate or be without companionship indefinately."

Why did you say "a woman" and not say "a person"?

I thought that once "a person" takes vows, they have promised their body to their spouse. And when that spouse is unavailable by distance or by illness or whatever, then yes, one has vowed celibacy.

Isn't that what vows are?

Is it "selfish" to expect adults to honor their vows?

Take the "woman" thing out of it. In the book, the preacher she got pregnant by had a much harder, spiritually broken life, even though he did not wear the *Scarlet A *on his frock.

Pepper

The Student:

Yes I've heard the tale "The Scarlet Letter."

I do not think an A is worse than rape or abuse. I don't recall ever saying that. I recall someone having a thread on that topic, but don't recall agreeing! (Remember, I am the FWS too.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a huge difference between the basically good person who momentarily fails during a hard time in their life, and one who intentially and with utter disregard to their spouse, continually does things to hurt them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wholeheartedly agree. My A was, as some BS have even told me here, really two ONS during a three week period. My story isn't all that different from yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find it interesting that the bible offers no provision for a divorce when abuse is involved. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've wondered about the same thing many times myself.

Pepper, I don't think it's selfish to expect spouses to honour their vows, no matter the circumstance. (I do think it's rediculous to have anyone wear a scarlet letter though if they make a mistake.)

Jen

pepperband,

yes, I think it is selfish to expect another person to honor their vows when they are unrealistic and harmful..which is why I can't take seriously any decree (like the one in the Bible) that only allows for divorce if adultery occurs or if the other person is an "unbeliever".

In the case of the story "The Scarlet Letter", I think what happened to her was wrong and malicious. That is why, if I had it to do over again, I WOULD wear a T-shirt saying "Adulterers are people too". If it is true that 90% of divorces involve infidelity, then there must be a TON of adulterers out there. Maybe some of them expected to feel as if what they did is worse than being a rapist, or whatever. At least, that is what Harley and some other people would have me believe.

Most of these people are probably decent most of the time. To make adultery the friggin' crime of the century just boggles my mind...and this is coming from a woman whose first husband had sex with 20 other women besides me. When people get married, they take other vows besides fidelity too ya know. Why it is ok to be an *sshole spouse as long as you don't have sex with someone else is also a mystery to me.

Actually, I kinda made that bargain with my ex at one time. I told him that I'd promise never to cheat on him ever again, but in return, he'd be f*cking a dead body. A shell. I'd do anything he wanted me to do, but the person who is me...the essence of who I am as a human being...he would never have. In return, he would have a "faithful" obedient spouse. Since fidelity, owning my body, and obedience were the only things that were important to him, he could have it. He would just never get the rest of me.

what I'm going to say next isn't directed at you in particular...just some ramblings about the topic at hand..what to tell other people.

In some ways, I'm not sorry that I cheated on my H when I did. If I had it to do over again, of course, I would have chosen a different way to cope. However, I think consequences go in more than one direction. There are consequences to alienating and degrading your spouse. Should your spouse take responsibility for choosing to have an affair? Sure. We are all responsible for our own actions. From an outsider's point of view, he had it coming. Too bad it had to come from me. I had better things to do with my time (and still do) than trying to pick my self-respect off of the ground because I made a bad choice.

In the final analysis, I'm glad he can blame our divorce on my affair and not on himself. I'm glad he lives in a town where women who pursue PhD's (like me) are freaks. Makes it just that more likely he won't consider his part in things and he will continue to fail in his relationships. In fact, I made it a point to tell him he did absolutely nothing wrong. That everything was my fault. I really, really hope he believes that.

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

jen,

You didn't it was worse than rape. Somewhere in the Harley literature he makes a claim that some BS's say that their spouses affair was worse than being raped or abused. It is a topic I've debated here many times. By making that statement, Harley, IMO, has raised the "crime" of adultery up the level of rape or abuse. While, the actions of some people in affairs do approach that level of harm, there is still a difference. Rape or abuse are actions that are done DIRECTLY to another person. There is absolutely no ambiguity about who the target of the harm is. Adultery harms another person indirectly. Harm is still done, yet I can still honestly say I never set out to hurt my H when I went outside my marriage. The OM was nice to me at a time when I had no other friends or family nearby, and for that I'm supposed to be stigmitized the rest of my life and supposed to take the sole blame for my marriage ending? I think not.

Prior to my one-night stand, I told my H I was afraid of him and he told me he didn't want to be married to me anymore. Besides that, his actions told me over and over again in so many words that he hated my guts. The fact that he didn't technically stick his you-know-what in someone else is irrelevant in my book. He was an *sshole and he had broken HIS vows over and over, many times, in fact.

Somewhere in the Harley literature he makes a claim that some BS's say that their spouses affair was worse than being raped or abused. .... By making that statement, Harley, IMO, has raised the "crime" of adultery up the level of rape or abuse.
Harley is not raising the bar on anything. It is the victims of rape/adultery who are raising it. This is in other books I have read also, not just Harley.

While, the actions of some people in affairs do approach that level of harm, there is still a difference. Rape or abuse are actions that are done DIRECTLY to another person. There is absolutely no ambiguity about who the target of the harm is.
Rape is generally committed to someone with little connection to the rapist. Adultery is done by someone in a position of enormous trust.
Treason is a crime which receives very little leniency and very severe sentences, whereas murderers get out in 10-15 years.

Why? Because of the issue of trust.

chris,

If I handn't been a "victim" of abuse and infidelity myself (my father was a violent alcoholic), I'd take Harley's word for it and call it a day. However, after having experienced some of what he is talking about first hand, I think I have something to say about it.

Also, it is not "generally true" that rape is committed by people someone doesn't know. The majority of rapes are committed by a family member, friend, or a date.

I've said it before and I've said it again... I think Harley and others make that statement in order to gain publicity and recognition for whatever they are marketing. In fact, I think Harley's methods are in part to blame for the pain of the BSs who come here by subjecting them to possible repeated betrayals by a WS. The only time a BS should have any incentive to stay at all is when the WS is remorseful. In that case, it is in their best interest to keep the WS around as long as possible so they can get their pound of flesh out of them. Something else Harley's methods tend to encourage. In any case, a WS has zero incentive to stay in the marriage. I can't imagine living the rest of my life as someone's pet poodle and having to keep up the effort to shower endless gratitude upon a BS for forgiving such a HORRIBLE act (comparable to rape/abuse).

The whole plan A plan B thing keeps people in marriages with a person who has no respect for them...not the BS and not the WS. He's sold lots and lots of books giving people false hope about their marriages after an affair has occurred and, in the process, has probably facilitated deep and persistent emotional damage in one or both people.

IMO, a marriage in which a known infidelity has occurred is not a marriage I'd want to be in. If someone discovers an affair, they are MUCH better off emotionally by immediately seeking a divorce. You wouldn't live with a rapist, would you?

Not only do they spare the WS from whatever abuse they think they are entitled to dish out, they are also not subjected to future infidelity. A win-win on both sides.

Student said: "He would just never get the rest of me."

I don't think you have yet to experience giving all of yourself to anyone. It has never been safe for you to do so. Growing up with an abusive alcoholic parent tends to do this to people.

You must realize how defended you are as a person. I see you as a sharp intellect who has a beautiful fragile heart made of cut glass ... covered by a suit of armor.

My very best wishes to you Student. Your journey will be complicated .... and, I fear, lonely.

Take care.

Pep

To be honest, Student, you sound like a man hater.

Your attitude, frankly, stinks. You talk about how your H was such an a-hole and that he was a jerk, etc. Did you ever consider your saying that you would not give yourself to him as part of the problem? I'm sure that you have used many manipulation techniques like this against people in the past. You probably did many other things like this to him. Now, you'll probably state that he did it first, but that just shows your childish attitude.

I'm not stating that all WS's are bad people here, but quite a few WS's are those who are selfish and walk all over people. Why should the truth not be known about what happened in the marriage. When I tell people what happened, I say that we both let conditions deteriorate, but she ended up having an affair. Ultimately that is her responsibility.

Have you ever considered that many BS's have been manipulated, lied to, and fed cup after cup of BS (the other kind) by their WS's. Maybe that is why they stayed, hoping that the WS would finally turn around their life. Is that the fault of the BS for believing that someone would do the right thing.

The methods proposed by the Harley's don't work for everyone. I'm sure that you could state that the methods proposed by any counselor or doctor don't work for everyone. That does not mean they are wrong.

You sound very bitter and angry, and I don't know your own situation. However, for someone pursuing a PhD, you don't act like someone deserving of high esteem.

My 2 cents...

Rape and Abuse are definitely bad. But abuse happened AS A RESULT OF MY STBXH'S D DAYS. He was very abusive to me when accidentally there would come a d day and I would express any resentment or displeasure (not a wild ourburst mind you.)

Adultery sometimes LEADS TO ABUSE. When my stbxh couldn't control the OW who was leaving "hints" here and there of her presence (of course she was always never to blame for leaving them), I would get the heat for it. For unpacking a bag and getting ready to just do a load of laundry and accidentally finding her harley davidson baseball hat (white and pink) in his bag...I got hit so hard in my forearm that I had a knot the size of a golfball and it turned black and was there for a few weeks. And only then did I realize that this had turned into an abusive relationship.

I did call the police to him after the next incident.

But saying that WS don't make us go through sometimes AS MUCH HELL as someone raped or abused is not a valid comparison because SOME OF US HAVE INDEED ENDURED VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU DID.

And it is funny. But it didn't start until his affiar and lies were in full swing.

And those members of the supposed 90% of divorces involving adultery probably feel just fine about themselves. After all, this society just (usually when no abuse is disclosed) will chalk it up to "they grew apart". Yea right. Our society has gotten so new age feely good that we can make anybody feel good about themselves when a decent ounce of repentance and conviction is really what's needed.

But those adulterers who go on and don't stop at least long enough to ask for forgiveness or try to right a wrong will keep on making the mistakes.

I have one last question: Chris are you STARPONY'S X HUSBAND?

Rape and Abuse are definitely bad. But abuse happened AS A RESULT OF MY STBXH'S D DAYS. He was very abusive to me when accidentally there would come a d day and I would express any resentment or displeasure (not a wild ourburst mind you.)

Adultery sometimes LEADS TO ABUSE. When my stbxh couldn't control the OW who was leaving "hints" here and there of her presence (of course she was always never to blame for leaving them), I would get the heat for it. For unpacking a bag and getting ready to just do a load of laundry and accidentally finding her harley davidson baseball hat (white and pink) in his bag...I got hit so hard in my forearm that I had a knot the size of a golfball and it turned black and was there for a few weeks. And only then did I realize that this had turned into an abusive relationship.

I did call the police to him after the next incident.

But saying that WS don't make us go through sometimes AS MUCH HELL as someone raped or abused is not a valid comparison because SOME OF US HAVE INDEED ENDURED VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU DID.

And it is funny. But it didn't start until his affiar and lies were in full swing.

And those members of the supposed 90% of divorces involving adultery probably feel just fine about themselves. After all, this society just (usually when no abuse is disclosed) will chalk it up to "they grew apart". Yea right. Our society has gotten so new age feely good that we can make anybody feel good about themselves when a decent ounce of repentance and conviction is really what's needed.

But those adulterers who go on and don't stop at least long enough to ask for forgiveness or try to right a wrong will keep on making the mistakes.

I have one last question: Chris are you STARPONY'S X HUSBAND?

And Student, I think you're rationalizing your past, siderailing what you did to justify your guilt, and think you have something unique to say that no one has ever considered before. You toss a bunch of tangential topics (of Help I've been victimized by INSERT FAVORITE TANGENT OF THE MOMENT) at the fundamental fact that you had an affair... heal yourself and keep your justifications to yourself. Your fog talk might seem intellectual to some people here... but it's still just a bunch of alien moon speak.

I'll take Jen's remorse over your intellectual self-conceit any day "student". There is a huge difference between people who have affairs... some say sorry and mean it... and some say sorry as a token nod and don't mean it. You remind me of my stbxWW. It wasn't her fault for anything... it was religion's, society's, everyone else's, and it just kept going so long as she didn't have to change anything about herself. No one was spared because it's easier to place blame than to take it. Maybe if you stood up and took the blame, people would stop dragging you through the mud... if they even are.

At least you can console yourself that what you did isn't nearly as bad as rape and abuse. Heck, if it's all comparative why not dig back into history and compare your affair to those things too? If you find something nasty enough, you'll look like a pure and spotless angel!

pepperband,

nope. I did twice, that's why I won't do it again. My ex was unwilling to make any changes in the relationship and in fact, insisted that the man should call the shots, be in charge, blah blah. so I said fine, if that is what you want, then that is what you will have. But in return, he gets a dead body. That was the tradeoff.

hoping4best,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Did you ever consider your saying that you would not give yourself to him as part
of the problem? " </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh, I dunno. I look at it another way. Using the language of Harley, my ex had a "need" for a faithful, obedient wife. Mindless obedience is not what I bargained for when I agreed to marry him. In fact, I made it clear I was not and never would be a "traditional" woman in that respect. He seemed to appreciate my self-sufficiency and independence--that is, until the time came when HE was expected to make compromises for a change. Now, for people who appreciate honesty, well, I was honest when I told him that what he wanted came with a price. He could choose to respect me as a human being OR he could have my obedience (which my body would of course come with).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You probably did many other things like this to him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did WHAT other things like this? What manipulation techniques are you talking about? Everyone negotiates in a relationship. He wanted obedience, ok, then [censored] a "dead" body pal. I hope you know that I mean "dead" in the figurative sense, not literal. As far as I'm concerned, any man who expects a woman to be submissive and obedient might as well be screwing a dead body, or a blow up doll--for all she's worth. Unfortunately for alot of men, their wives have already made that trade-off. Their wives either don't want to have sex with them anymore or they just go along with it. Well, I figured, if I was going to go to the effort of being the obedient wife he wanted, the least I could do is deprive him of the satisfaction of believing I was into it or into him. That's how it goes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I tell people what happened, I say that we both let conditions deteriorate, but she ended up having an affair. Ultimately that is her responsibility. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, after reading some of these posts, I think it's time I changed my strategy. All this time I've just let people make up their own minds when they ask me that question. From now on, I think I'll just tell people my ex had an affair. If people believe you when you say that, then they should believe me when I say it too. Damn. Wish I would have thought of it sooner!!

lyxa,

blah, blah, blah, rationalizing blah, blah, blah fogblah, blah, blah justifications

spare me the sanctimonious lecture. I've heard it a zillion time before. Time for a new word book folks. My ex bled nearly every ounce of remorse out of me in the year following my confession, and MB people like you got the last few drops out of me. The only thing that keeps people like you happy is a never ending stream of groveling self-hatred. The way you people latch onto a remorseful WS is well, like maggots on a rotting corpse. Their pain feeds your need for revenge, especially if that pound of flesh wasn't something you got from YOUR WS. Looks like Jen is the catch-of-the day now. Which is why I advised her not to spend alot of time here.

...and I know something you don't. Nothing I do will force another person to do a damn thing. I will accept my share of the blame--which is exactly half and no more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least you can console yourself that what you did isn't nearly as bad as rape and abuse. Heck, if it's all comparative why not dig back into history and compare your affair to those things too? If you find something nasty enough, you'll look like a pure and spotless angel! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Not trying to console myself at all. Just putting things into perspective...and having been there myself--not just getting second hand information from people wanting sympathy--I feel qualified to have an opinion about it.

I suppose if you find enough WS's around to blame everything on, then you can convince yourself you were a good wife/husband, whatever. If you read my prior post, I did tell my H that everything was my fault and, in fact, I did take all the blame for our marriage ending. Of course, he accepted that explanation. Like you, he thought he was the perfect spouse and wouldn't have changed anything he ever said or did, in spite of how much it hurt me. I told him many times how everything was my fault, just to make sure it sunk in. You know, it was kinda like faking an orgasm. Made him feel good, and he didn't have to change a thing. That's what he wanted to hear, and besides, anything I can do to (after the fact) to make sure he doesn't change and keeps screwing himself, well that was a gift worth giving.

Besides, what do you care if they say sorry and it is a token nod? As long as they stop cheating, right? The reason why I wouldn't cheat again has nothing to do with my ex. Nope. I won't cheat again because a) it made my situation alot more complicated and difficult than it was before and b) I would prefer to deprive people like him and you the satisfaction and/or excuse to divorce someone and blame it all on them. I learned that it is alot more socially acceptable to remain "faithful", but otherwise treat your spouse like cr*p until they either divorce you or they cheat on you. Either way, you get the sympathy card, doncha? Even better...don't get married in the first place. Then your failures aren't public record.

Besides, my ex is some other woman's problem now. Maybe some woman who feels sorry for him that he was cheated on, no doubt. That sympathy card goes a long way, but it will only get him so far and it will only get you so far too. But hey, work it while it lasts. Make hay while the sun shines, and all that.

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

Wow, what's with all the defensive anger? I have to say that I personally latched onto the MB philosophy because when I read that many BS's feel as bad as if they'd been raped or abused, or however they phrased it, I knew I wasn't alone. That's how I felt! MB didn't put that idea into my head. Not saying it's wrong or right, just that it's true. That doesn't mean that I think my H should be treated the same for having an A as if he'd raped someone, of course not! MB has been a Godsend to me through all this because here I find other people who share similar feelings to those I'm going through. The support has been invaluable.

I counselled with Steve H. early on, and he told me after three weeks to go from plan A to plan B and only a few weeks later, to divorce my H (something he admitted he rarely advises) because of my H's abusiveness under the influence of drugs and alcohol. I followed his advice, briefly, but it was my decision, not on the advice of Steve H., that led me to believe my H's lies about wanting to reconcile and to drag the relationship out for another year. So, it's not my experience that the H's blindly mislead people with one generic response to infidelity.

I've learned here (and in Al-Anon) that the only person I can change is myself and that it was my own issues (low self-esteem, etc.) that put me in a relationship where I was subjected to both repeated infidelity and verbal abuse. I take complete responsible for my participation in the relationship, including the ways I took my H for granted and looked harder at his weaknesses than at his strengths prior to the time he lost his sobriety. But, while I take complete responsibility for my own choices, I don't take any responsibility for his, including the choice of the A, the repeated lies, manipulation, and verbal abuse. These were and are his choices. Taking half the blame for the demise of the relationship doesn't mean taking any of the blame for him choosing to have an affair.

I don't believe from what I hear on MB that most of us BS's are interested in extracting our pound of flesh. The presence of remorse would just indicate to us a willingness to work on the marriage, though even the Harley's state that remorse is not a requirement for reconciliation. And no one should be expected to grovel, ever, and not for as long as Jen has. Both parties need to take responsibility for the state of the relationship and work hard to save it, if that's what they want. It's not solely the responsibility of the WS, but I don't think any of the BS's here are under that illusion. In fact, in most cases, though Jen is an exception, it's the BS's who do more than their share of the changing, at least at first, in order to show their willingness to save the relationship - that's plan A.

As for the original question... the decision of what to say was mostly out of my hands because my H left very publicly with one of our employees, so all 25-30 people at work, and many others in our small town, knew what happenned, so people didn't have to ask. The public humiliation I felt just added to the pain while I was suddenly faced with running the business alone. Because I thought everyone already knew, I tended to say way to much to try to justify my own position and save face by playing the brave, innocent victim. I don't do this too much any more, but sometimes she still slips out...

letstry,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Taking half the blame for the demise of the relationship doesn't mean taking any of the blame for him choosing to have an affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point exactly. And taking responsibility for an affair doesn't mean taking all the responsibility for the conditions that lead to our marriage becoming vulnerable to one either. That is the other point I was trying to make. Sure, there are cases where one of the spouses is a sex addict or something. My first H cheated on me the day after we were married, and had sex with 19 more women within the year and a half we were married. Hardly time for a marriage to develop problems. In that case, I tried to seek counseling with him after he told me about this problem of his, but he refused.

The reason why I object so strongly to what I consider an inflammatory statement made by Harley is because he had never been raped or abused as far as I know, nor has he been cheated on. I'm sure there are people who can imagine what it must be like to be raped or abused and put their pain at being cheated on in that category. Unless one has experienced those things first hand, and I have, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. Also, I have no idea what situations Harley is talking about when he makes those statements. I could imagine an extended affair being as painful as the years of abuse I suffered as a child, and got a taste of as an adult. I could imagine how horrible it would be to live with someone who constantly lies and sneaks around behind your back and repeatedly disregard your pains. Yep, been there, done that. But to make blanket statements about infidelity = rape is just irresponsible....again, coming from someone who knows, not just someone passing on anecdotes.

Translation:

"spare me the sanctimonious lecture....."

means.....

"Your moral standards present a threat to me. I much prefer a world view replete with moral relativism, and cynicism. I am not willing to apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Having a damaged world view does not make one an intellectual superior. Get over it.

Pep

Jen, with time, you're going to find something that works for you. As hard as it might seem right now, it's going to be much more difficult someday when you find someone who loves you... and you will wonder if you should tell them. Even Harley's questionairre probes into past issues like this. When you get to that point Jen... the other person will feel the sincerity of whatever it is you share with them.

Actually, this applies to all of us... right now, my sincere emotion about my 1st marriage, is not a sincerely good feeling. I hope that is, when I get to that point, one full of love, renewed hope, and that any baggage is considered worth the possible future dreams. If your message is one of love, I think you'll be just fine. If your message is one of anything else... then who knows?

When that time comes, I want you to know that we'll all be pulling for you. I am. I think that you're kind of in a holding pattern... holding out hope... and setting contingencies for otherwise. Once your course is set, you'll go and while maybe looking back, you'll never turn back.

pepperband,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Your moral standards present a threat to me. I much prefer a world view replete with moral relativism, and cynicism. I am not willing to apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I did apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards, just not one you happen to agree with. One of the perks of being a BS is feeling morally superior to a WS. oooh wheee, and don't you get all bothered by a WS or FWS who won't kiss your self-righteous beeehind. Just a hint here..it's called redemption sweetie. I did my time. I gave at the office, honey. That means I don't have to grovel for you or anyone else who thinks I'm supposed to suffer for the rest of my life or throw myself on the ground everytime a BS comes walking by. Nor will I allow myself or others like me to be compared to a rapist or an abuser so that you or others can feel justified doing whatever it is you need to do to have your revenge. Sucks doesn't it? A lowly, horrible, cheating, two-timer who has forgiven herself. Get over it.

jen,

lynx wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you get to that point Jen... the other person will feel the sincerity of whatever it is you share with them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I waited for about three years before I started dating again, because I didn't want to take the chance of ending up with yet another person who was going to hang this over my head. I wanted to make sure I was strong enough not to care if they couldn't accept what I told them, and that I was strong enough to walk away if they decided to use this information against me. That was a mistake I made in my second marriage. I let him talk down to me and degrade me. I've learned since then to stand up to people who think they are better than me.

When I decided to tell my current boyfriend about circumstances in my marriage, I made the distinct decision that I was NOT going to approach this with the attitude of "I hope he accepts me". IMO, that is a position of weakness. Do not accept what some here would have you believe. You are inferior to noone. You can state the facts without making a hobby out of self-flaggellation. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just on a power trip.

Student:

The way you people latch onto a remorseful WS is well, like maggots on a rotting corpse. Their pain feeds your need for revenge, especially if that pound of flesh wasn't something you got from YOUR WS."

First of all ....the "you people" comment gives you away Student. You are scared. Your bravado is phoney. You are (at least for the moment) an angry, frightened little girl stomping her feet and screaming about "you people". The big, bad "you people". Who exactly is "you people" anyway? Are you having an adult conversation? Or, are you ranting / venting frustration.

"like maggots on a rotting corpse" ..... This is a unique way to describe your fellow human beings here on MB. Do you see yourself in either the corpse or the maggot category?

"their pain feeds your need for revenge" .... Does calling other human beings "maggots" or "corpses" feed YOUR need for revenge? This larva / rotting flesh reference must represent some deep personal meaning to you. I wonder what it might be?

"need for revenge" .... Yes, I see some of that going on. I am sorry you feel that need.

"that pound of flesh" .... Yet another interesting remark. I think this is how YOU feel about yourself. I certainly do not see you that way. It must hurt like hell being inside your skin. Your pound of flesh.

Your Victimhood must be heavy. Why don't you put it down and relax for once?

Pep