No, if for no other reason that to be different that my betraying spouse. But I can tell my children I never betrayed my marriage vows in even the least sense of the word. In no possible way could there ever be adultery or infidelity tagged to my name.

I waited, and that wait really helped to heal me. However, in the last couple weeks, I have met so many people that I am trying to figure out how to nicely say no.

The problem (ALMOST ALWAYS) with long, drawn out divorces, is that the couple are fighting and trying to get the edge or trying to screw over the other. If someone really wants a divorce, it can be done in the minimal time the state requires.

Peop[le think divorce will end arguments and fighting. HA! Divorce is almost never an end to problems. It simply adds new ones to the old ones.

And if there are still problems with the "couple" getting a divorce, then you should not subject a new person to all that crap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by daoren:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>daoren:
You replied to avondale25;
Also, I'd like to point out that not all marriages are "Christian" marriages.
avondale25 did not say anything about christianity. Clergy generally refers to the "elders" in a religious organization/entity/following.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Point taken. That being said, not all marriages are presided over by a religious elder. Common Law marriages and Justice O' the Peace marriages may not necessarily have any sort of religious involvement.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before we get carried away with misreading everything and having to state it repeatedly, the original post says, "This means the judge/clergy have not ended the marriage."
The slash means either, and, or. For instance, most clergy are empowered by the state to do a LEGAL marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And in the states that have a minimum of 1-year of "legal separation" before you can get a divorce... where the judge says "you're separated and it's ok to date" because it's spelled out in your separation agreement?

But I can tell my children I never betrayed my marriage vows in even the least sense of the word.
Ditto. I talked to my kids about this quite a bit. Let themn know that a marriage is a marriage. Divorce is sometimes inevitable, but you should act married while still so. Then when they get married, they have lkearned (hopefully) to deal with bad times in a marriage differently than their wayward parent and not just bail when it gets a little tough.

And in the states that have a minimum of 1-year of "legal separation" before you can get a divorce... where the judge says "you're separated and it's ok to date" because it's spelled out in your separation agreement?
The only reason it's "legal" to date is to keep people from getting sued for adultery while legally separated but still married. It doesn't mean you are emotionally ready to date.

Let's say you get one of these required separations before divorce. Why not wait the year and few months for the divorce? Why not take this time to examine the marriage and why it failed? Most people would not WANT to go through all that crap again. Get involved with someone too soon and you bypass having to deal with it. This is a BIG factor in why affairs end and failed 2nd marriages. People bailing do not deal with what happened and they feel good about their new "soulmate" so everything has to be right and it "feels so good", it can't be wrong.

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Read previous post.

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

It might take 2 to fight, but only 1 to delay a divorce. In my state, a no-fault divorce takes 2 years unless both parties want it faster. WW realizes that she loses health insurance and some other financial impacts when the divorce is final. All she has to do is simply not respond to anything until the 2 years runs out. Most lawyers here brag that they can make it go several months beyond 2 years. There is no overt fighting. And her romantic life is not hindered while in this limbo state. It's quite ironic. But so far my answer is still no.

Let's just remove all the moral ambiguity, shall we? I'm a pragmatist...

best reasons not to date before getting a divorce:
1. If your spouse cheated on you (ie "dated" before a divorce) you lose the sympathy vote if you do it too.

2. You end up with someone who thinks it's ok to date married people. That's great.

3. If you have kids, you teach them that marriage is kinda subjective. You don't have to keep your vows if ya don't feel like it or someone cute comes along who makes you feel good. SEE #1 above.

4. Isn't it time you found another hobby? Really. The opposite sex wasn't put on the planet to make you feel good about yourself. Do volunteer work until your divorce is final.

Chris , I don't intend to hijack this thread but since my name has been quoted in a number of posts, I felt it only fair to point out my signature line.

Further, I have been legally separated since my 26th anniversary. Although my H initiated a piece of paper that is legally recognized by this state and says I "am free to establish a separate life" during this time , that doesn't mean I'm NOT married . Therefore, I feel it's wrong to date. So my answer remains "No".

I can't wait to see what you're up to with this survey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>And in the states that have a minimum of 1-year of "legal separation" before you can get a divorce... where the judge says "you're separated and it's ok to date" because it's spelled out in your separation agreement?

The only reason it's "legal" to date is to keep people from getting sued for adultery while legally separated but still married. It doesn't mean you are emotionally ready to date.

Let's say you get one of these required separations before divorce. Why not wait the year and few months for the divorce? Why not take this time to examine the marriage and why it failed? Most people would not WANT to go through all that crap again. Get involved with someone too soon and you bypass having to deal with it. This is a BIG factor in why affairs end and failed 2nd marriages. People bailing do not deal with what happened and they feel good about their new "soulmate" so everything has to be right and it "feels so good", it can't be wrong.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And just because you are separated and have a divorce pending doesn't mean that you are not ready to date.

And for those for who *KNOW* why they are getting divorced and for whom the divorce has been a long time coming? How did we get from just dating (say dinner and a movie) to the "soulmate" stuff? Not everyone is looking for that next "soulmate" to run to the drive-thru chapel with. Dating doesn't have to be that "serious" all the time. Dinner and a movie.. maybe a little dancing.. it doesn't have to lead to rolling around in the sack or picking out rings and getting introduced to the family...

Marriage isn't always a good thing.
Divorce isn't always a bad thing.
Not everyone needs therapy to be well adjusted.
All sweeping generalizations are bad! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think it's more of a "yes and no" question rather than a "yes or no" question.

Prelude.... most separation agreements and filing for divorces takes months if not years to reach and, in my state, for example, the "clock" doesn't start ticking till the sep agreement says it did. Emotionally, you begin dealing with the issue of divorce when the nasty word first rears its ugly head.

If you pinned me down and forced me to answer the original question... I would say NO you shouldn't date till the laws of Man say it's over... and then I'd start noting exceptions to my answer based on one's religious beliefs, affect of dating on kids, total period of estrangement, "finalization" of the estrangement to both spouses, and then the own person's readiness to re-enter the dating world.

Chris, you made an excellent point... most separation agreements in states with long sep periods provide a "free and clear" clause for dating to prevent either from being hit with adultery during the separation... and you have to note that Religion and Law define different definitions of what "Adultery" is. <splitting hairs now...>

Sex is different than dating. I suppose you'll have to do a thread that asks, "Is it okay to have sex with someone you're dating during a separation?" I mean, I had sex with my wife... and look what happened!!! ;-)

<small>[ May 10, 2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Lyxa ]</small>

I also think that having kids complicate things... because you have to look out for them too. You're also being tied to your x based on whatever joint custody arrangement exists. I'd imagine that such a tie would make it harder to "move on".

I have a friend that, to protect his kids, didn't even make friends with women for 6 years after his divorce. He didn't want his daughters exposed to woman after woman when they were already being exposed to man after man by at his ex-wife's home. He was ready to date... but his daughters weren't ready for him to date and he saw that the first time they met a lady he had taken to dinner. After her, nothing for 6 years. I respect that a lot.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He was ready to date... but his daughters weren't ready for him to date and he saw that the first time they met a lady he had taken to dinner. After her, nothing for 6 years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">right, that is most important.

there are many kids that are pushed aside or emotionally unsupported in their growth years while one of their parents are more concerned about their happiness and having a partner than staying single and being a proper parent.

oh, and we must distinguish between dating, and socializing. I socialize with women, but seldom date.

I will see my woman friend in about two weeks, I asked my son if he minded if she came with me to watch his lacrosse game. He said no, unless i don't play. My only request is that he be respectful, and say "hi" to her after the game. Other than that, he is free to go be with his friends. No forcing him on her or her on him, and i specifically told him, he does not have to like her, just has to be respectful.

except for one incident, he has done so, and appears not to hold much resentment against her, although i know he does if i have to split my time with him with her. . .

that to me is when parental dating is damaging. . . as my X is finding out.

wiftty

wiftty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheStudent:
[QB]
best reasons not to date before getting a divorce:
1. If your spouse cheated on you (ie "dated" before a divorce) you lose the sympathy vote if you do it too.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TS,

I admire your stand on this however....

One big difference between our thoughts is I couldn't give a rat's rear if I have some sort of sympathy vote or if people on my side or not. What I care about is my own respect. Once my spouse took his fist to my head my vows went out the door. I owed our marriage nothing!

What I do owe was to myself, I am not saying I should have dated. I can't even say I regretted dating though, maybe because I didn't get hurt, maybe because getting your feet wet even after a divorce usually you aren't gonna do so well the first few times...you fall and get back up...divorced or not...

I don't understand your stand on you shouldn't date, but go ahead and play head games with your spouse, treat him like crap so he'll leave you, withhold sex and affection...just to get him to be the one to divorce you so you can be the one that looks better in society, which, btw, is also not part of the vows I took.

Is it pick and choose which vows to break?

I didn't have sex during my separation for me, not because of what society would or wouldn't think.

If I met a man that says he dated a woman while she was separated, as long as the husband had abuse or cheated on her, I would have no problem with that. However, if I dated a man that said he dated someone who left her spouse because she was unhappy and wanted to date, I'd have a problem with that, and I'd also not date someone who cheated on their spouse while in a marriage or left their marriage to cheat. I wouldn't date those people.

As for what I teach my children...Hopefully, I taught my children the oposite my mom taught me...My mom taught me to stay in a miserable abusive marriage no matter what....I am hoping I taught my children that when a spouse breaks his vows in such a distructive manner it's okay to call it quits.

ANNA

Chris
Great thread.
I've reviewed my opinions on this matter entirely within a period of a year. Here it is--

1. Dating someone else who is not yet divorced is risky, since WS's do not tell the truth about the marriage, we all know
2. With no kids involved, and spousal betrayal, the only consideration would be your own readiness
3. With kids, dating is only OK if they do not know at all...1.e, you would have friends of the opposite sex, and they would not take up space or time allocated to the kids. For custodial parents, this is more difficult, and requires more restraint

"dating" is harmless enough, and we need at some point validation from the opposite sex, albeit not in a committed or intimate relationship, but close friendship. This is also part of healing. As long as the parameters of the date are understood by both parties at the outset, I do not see a problem with this.

It is my experience that people operate within their own moral code whether we like it or not. I cannot see how one would not date until the legal divorce is final, for example, then once it is, see nothing wrong with having sex outside of any marriage. I just don't see the point. If parents are not living together for more than 2 yrs, the kids have to know the marriage is over. If the parent should then date responsibly, who's to point a finger?

Primary concern should be 1. kids, and 2. personal readiness.

Having said that, I need to refer to point (1), on dating someone in the process of a divorce, or separation. Rather safe than sorry. I would have to hear it from the husband himself, to confirm the fact that he is irreconcilibly separated from his wife, or that there are delay problems with the divorce. I would also be concerned that the woman may or may not be on the rebound.

My 2$
muzoheda

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by muzohead:
<strong>Chris
Rather safe than sorry. I would have to hear it from the husband himself, to confirm the fact that he is irreconcilibly separated from his wife, or that there are delay problems with the divorce. I would also be concerned that the woman may or may not be on the rebound.

My 2$
muzoheda</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know the husband isn't the one lying and you passed up a really nice woman because of that?

If a man told me he needed to talk to my then husband when we were separated because he couldn't take my word for it, or he needed to talk to my now ex to see his side of the story, I'd tell him to go take a flying leap any where he wanted but get out of my sight.

ANNA

Excuse me a moment...
How do you know the husband isn't the one lying and you passed up a really nice woman because of that?
I’m really confused about your thought process here. Maybe it’s just the way you worded it but...

My understanding of Muzo’s example is this. He knows a nice woman he may like to date. She says her marriage is over. Then to make sure, he asks her husband and he says it is over.

You, Anna, suspect the husband may be lying?

If he didn’t want a divorce, why would he lie & say he does?

If he wanted a divorce, and said he didn’t want one (to mess with his stbxw), why would anyone want to get involved in that mess?

Besides, just because someone may be special is a reason to go out with them? Regardless of their marital status?

<small>[ May 10, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

yep Chris I'd be wondering about my thought process as well. I read more into Muzo's post than was there. I was thinking he would ask them what happened as well....but that wasn't in there at all. I misunderstood until I went back and re-read....I would see nothing wrong with asking him if it's over, if it's someone you just met.

Although if this person already knows me well, then they would also know me well enough to know I would come clean if husband thought there was a chance...Of course,also if the peson knew my situation then it didn't matter whether my ex thought it was over or not, he was physically abusive, so I was thinking of my own situation, I don't think it would be necessary for any man to ask my ex (then stbx husband) if it were over or not, it wasn't up to him any more.

My divorce was also stalled by ex's inability to obtain a new job right away and the fact I didn't have a good lawyer and she let him and his lawyer run all over us...I didn't find that out until I obtained a high-dollar lawyer myself. It took about one month for my divorce to go through once I switched lawyers, but a total of two years to get divorced. It was over long before the papers went through, he started dating immediately, which didn't matter because there is or never was a chance I would ever go back to a man who might kill me some day.

ANNA

So am I "dating" or "socializing" if I go out for lunch or dinner or dessert with more than one woman at once? My social circle these days seems to be heavily weighted toward interesting young women. Is it my fault if there aren't usually any other guys around?... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

For myself I say no and I am talking 23 months into seperation after 2 yrs of trying to make it work.

We are not divorced because TBX never has pushed it. And stalling was my revenge against the OW.

I think sometime in the next yr I'll push to have it finished