Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Thanks for being there. To answer your questions, I'm staying in the relationship because (A) I believe God hates divorce; (B) God is working on me through these circumstances; and (c) for the sake of the kids.<P>I'm not at all sure if I'll always stay in the relationship. I can't envision the rest of my life this way.<P>I am learning to set limits on the abuse. Right now they are sometimes "harsh", but I am doing it. What I'm failing at is to set limits on the abuse of the kids. Maybe it's because when I've done that in the past, the kids have lashed out at me. They're so loyal to their mother and seem to almost hate me. If fact, I feel all the time that they wish I wasn't around.<P>Now, do you want to know how I really truly feel? I wish my wife would go away (die, leave, doesn't matter) and that I would then be free to try to rebuild a relationship with the kids and help them out of their abusive tendencies. Now that I've said that, I realize how "selfish" and "uncaring" this sounds, but I'm being totally honest. I honestly don't know if I would cry if my W left....sad....I just feel nothing for her emotionally. Nevertheless, I guess I'm being loving to her by confronting the abuse and giving her every opportunity to deal with it. Love is not a feeling, it's an action.<P>Thanks for your thoughts,<BR>Gogie<P>

Gogie,<P>It sounds like it would be ok for you to not be in this relationship only if your wife left or died or somehow was removed. At the same time, you say you can't see yourself in this relationship for the rest of your life. When do you feel it would be ok to address your needs? Or leave? Is there any time other than through your wifes actions when it would be ok? I know this seems like a funny question but I want to understand more. <P>Your true feelings come through in what you wrote. You are hurting deeply. I am sad for that. I'm also mad too, that GOD is in the way of your happiness. Sorry, but it does bug me. As unhappy as you are, I can't help but feel that way. <P>Also, you have been so supportive of my decision to leave my marriage. It seems ok for me to take care of myself and my children, but not you? That doesn't seem fair. <P>Is your wife doing anything that you can see in the way of changing? Even something small?<P>Sorry for all the questions again. Still trying to understand. <P>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>From a human perspective, the reason I'm staying in this relationship is because of my two girls. If I leave or seek a divorce, I risk not seeing them again. They totally side with their mother on everything. Even though they have mostly rejected me, I still have a relationship with them though it's not what it should be. For example, I sit with them to do homework most every evening. I also believe their hope of getting out of the abuse cycle depends on me. Remember the part in the Patricia Evans book about 'helpful witness'? Well, in our family, I'm it.<P>As far as God goes, that's sort of a tough one to answer. On the surface, it appears you're right--God is standing in the way of my happiness. However, I believe God is the source of all happiness. Furthermore, I can't judge God working or failing to work by my circumstances. I believe, thru faith, that He knows what is best for me. So, I'm trusting him with my life, trying to do what he wants me to do, and leaving the outcome to Him.<P>As far as why is divorce ok for you, but not for me? That's what I hear you asking? Do I sound hippocritical? I don't mean to. I just support you and your decision. At a future time, it may be the right thing for me. For the reasons stated above, it's not yet the right time.<P>One thing I'm trying to do to "take care of me" is connect more with other people. I have a friend who has been thru some stuff with me lately (unrelated to my marriage) who I enjoy being with. We're going to try to watch the hockey game together tonight.<P>I guess that's it for now. You asked some good, thought-provoking questions.<P>To be continued...<BR>Gogie<P><p>[This message has been edited by Gogie (edited June 09, 2001).]

Dear Gogie,<P>Thanks for clearing things up for me. Those questions were just nagging at me and I had to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't find them to be a challenge of the choices you are making. They were not meant to be. I think the deep pain you shared prompted them, as well as not knowing all the pieces of your story.<P>Thanks for supporting my decisions. I don't think it is hippocritical for you to have different choices than mine. I was more curious about how you could be so supportive of me while feeling divorce is wrong. Maybe I was wondering if deep down, you were judging me because that is what I have been going through with me husband's family. They are highly religious and like you, believe divorce is wrong. I have spent 20 years in this marriage and saying it is time to end it was the most painful thing I have done in my life. I did it with much thought and soul-searching.<P>Since I am the one who is filing the divorce papers, I am the "bad one" in their eyes. They have sent my h numerous cards of support and when his mom calls our home and leaves a message, it is no longer for me and him - just him.<P>His mom knows that he has threatened to hit me, told me he wants me to leave over and over, locked my daughter and I out of our home, etc... <P>When you asked what would be accomplished by my husband going to his minister the answer is - to be able to say he did since his family has put so much pressure on him to do so. His recent church involvement has been for them, not him. That's why as soon as the pressure is off, he stops going. He really has no intention of changing. He didn't go to church last sunday and I wonder if he will tomorrow.<P>Anyway, as I said, I will support you no matter what - just like you have me!!<P>Hope your day goes well and you continue to connect with others. Sometimes that makes a difficult situation easier. <P>I will be working at home today. I am the author and publisher of a booklet on Caregiver Stress. Wrote it based on my experiences as a volunteer counselor for Hospice for 3 years.<P>Bye for now,<P>hopefulheart

Hello Gogie and Hopefulheart:<P>Like you Hopefulheart, I had trouble getting messages posted here....it said my password was wrong. Well, I'm back now, thankfully! <P>I appreciate all you both have written. Thanks for sharing your story, Hopefulheart. Hugs to you!!! I am all for the efforts all of us have made to make a marriage out of what we've got, yet I support Hopefulheart's decision to leave. I know what you mean about having grieved and grieved this, cycled from hope to none and back! I have too. I was stunned that your H and his family are fundamentalist Christians like my H. I know I'll also suffer great shame from H's fundamentalist family and my own strict religious parents IF I divorce. But I've come to believe God doesn't accept the abuse/neglect we've endured either, and infact, that is probably more shameful, even criminal. <P>Like you, Gogie, I've been caught concerning what God's expectations of me are in this situation. I stayed with H through the last counseling situation because I believed it was Biblical to have his church type confront him. It would really test where his heart and motivations were. When they said he was controlling, abusive, and "not humble" (not willing to be taught) and refused to counsel him more, they also instructed me to "be strong" because I had no Biblical grounds to divorce him!! That is the fundamentalist view. I haven't known what to do. Matt. 18:15-19 just says if the offenses don't stop, treat him as a heathen. Well, what does that mean for a marital situation? Does this mean go on to Matt. 19 and define him as "hardness of heart" and divorce him?<P>But right now I am in such distress that I groan at even the thought of how I'm going to get through tomorrow, another week, etc. The current therapists told me I need to give him this chance with them. They think they have the tools to get him on the road to recovery. I decided I will try to hold on yet again, but I need them to confront, teach, give ultimatums, or whatever soon, as I can't see myself holding out beyond the end of June or mid-July! I would rather separate and give the girls time to adjust before school starts again too. That's where I'm at now. <P>Gogie, my heart goes out to you concerning your daughters!<BR>If only you could get custody of them!!! <P>I wish there were easy answers. May God give us whatever we need to get through this. Right now, I am SO LONELY!! My H has restricted my connections with people (typical of abusers to isolate the victim). He is quick to accuse me of "gossip" over contacts that are not gossip, but as long as he thinks it is gossip, it is!! This is so frustrating. <BR>Right now I find myself getting more and more withdrawn. I can't let this happen. I'm going to try and join a summer women's Bible study at a local church, even though H doesn't want me involved there. It's my only hope of not feeling alone. <P>Our therapists canceled last week, but we plan to meet this Wednesday. Pray for me that I can endure a few more weeks of this, that H will wake up or that the kids and I can go free.

Dear Renae,<P>Glad you're back. I was wondering where you went. You know, I don't feel qualified to comment on biblical issues. I was not raised in any kind of religion. In a way, that has been both, good, and bad. <P>On the one hand, it has provided me the opportunity to search for my own meaning about human nature and life. I am free to explore all different belief systems and ways of thinking. I can easily accept and care for people as long as they have a good heart. I am a spiritual person and know in my heart that there is a life-force, and things that are far bigger than I. Love being the most powerful of all. When I connect with the core of my being that is what I find.<P>On the other hand, the difficult part has been not having anything to "hold on to" so to speak. No foundation. No "answers." Then along came my in-laws and they had the answer to everything! I do mean everything. <P>Today I am at peace with my beliefs. <P>Now, my h has strayed far from his parents in many ways. He was raised Catholic. Later, they moved into the fundamentalist church after he was grown and out of the house. They are currently trying to put as much force and guilt on him as possible but it is really falling to deaf ears. He is only barely appeasing them.<P>I have loved my h for 20 years and always thought we would be together for good. There just came a point when I had to balance my love for him with my love for myself.<P>Renae, you know, I have been in the same "crisis" stage you are currently in. Like I couldn't make it through another day. My h was yelling and screaming at me almost daily. It's so hard to deal with and takes a huge toll emotionally.<P>Have you given any thought to working on the marriage while you are both living apart? That would give you the emotional break you need while also remaining committed to giving your h a chance to turn things around. Just a thought.<P>Talk to you soon. <P>Hopefulheart

Oh yes, I have considered doing a "covenant separation". Have you considered doing this too? At this website, [censored] continually tells me this is the thing I should do, cuz it is the way he began the road to a new life. Harley advocates this also. The idea is that a separation creates a crisis which forces him to grow. But this is not likely to work with my H, because it will only add to his view that he is right and I'm the bad one. This is why I've stayed here trying to work on it rather than separating. He even told me if I leave him, he will divorce me. So I've tried every avenue possible to get help for him & us. After the last counseling situation, he got more righteous (said the counselors were bad & took revenge against me very severely for a long time). <P>Hopefulheart, if you don't mind my asking, what is at the root of your H's abusiveness? Do you think he was always this way, was it the way he was raised, or just became stuck at some point, unable to resolve grief, pain, shame about issues in his life? Why is he so angry and out of control? <BR>I wish he could be helped to become a healthy functioning man! Were you both planning to go to his minister or just him? Would it be helpful if you both go? I sense there's a real need in your lives to come to understanding of God and spirituality for each of you personally and as a couple. Not religion, but real spirituality and a coherent belief system that works in real life. Your H seems to be in spiritual conflict with God and others! Many marriages have been saved when their spirituality came to more maturity and bonded them together in a way they never were before. Since God created marriage and spirituality, He know how to get it all to work in harmoney. Just a thought... My H is in spiritual and emotional conflict... Current therapists believe they can get him unstuck!! <P>Praying the best for you & Gogie & me and our families!!<BR>Love to you!!!!<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 10, 2001).]

Dear Renae,<P>Your comment about that last counseling situation really highlighted what I said in a previous post on the other topic you are involved in which was started by [censored].<P>That your husband's abusive behavior escalated after attempts to deal with his abuse in counseling is classic!!!!<BR>That's why it is not a recommended form of treatment for abusive relationships. You will pay the price. It's like playing with fire and it's dangerous!!!<P>After my h and I went to therapy last month, he started threatening me and I HAD to leave for 3 days. He was completely out of control. I will never attempt therapy with him again. He beat me down so low emotionally that one day I laid in bed, thinking, I just want to die. I cried and cried. I realized that I needed to do something or take my life. That's about as low as you can go. <P>I choose life over marriage to my h. <P>When his image is threatened, he simply builds a stronger wall around himself to protect the image he has that he is a "good guy" and "practically perfect" as he told the therapist.<P>I'm sorry, Renae, but I am firm about this. I am leaving as soon as I get a job to support myself. I can no longer tolerate this or put my children through this. <P>At this point, I'm not sure that I am even a good support for you and Gogie because I do not have the religious convictions you do that keep you in your marriages. <P>You ask what may be the roots of this problem for him? Critical parents who shamed him. But you see, that is for him to deal with, because I can not help him. I have tried for 20 years. That feels like enough. It's time for him to help himself. Add to his abusive personality, the fact that he has chemical dependency issues which also work against his ability to face himself and his problems. Many therapists will not even deal with a client who is actively using because it interfers with self-exploration, change, and growth. <P>You know, right now at my house there are no threats, anger outbursts, or anything abusive. You know why? Because I took the advice of Patricia Evans and do not engage in any talks about relationship issues AT All. None. This way he is not threatened and it provides me with time to get myself financially ready to leave. The more I talked about our relationship, the more defensive and angry he became. In therapy or out of therapy it escalates his abusive behavior. We can't work on the relationship. <P>I came from a very abusive family home - much more than he, (that, he would readily admit to,) and I worked very hard in therapy to overcome the problems that created for me. 2 and 1/2 years of painful, hard work. It was worth it however, because I am stronger now than I have ever been. <P>The difference between my h and I is that I made up my mind to never pass abuse on to my children or to be an abusive person. I rejected abuse, my h identified with it and embraced it. Much like Gogie's children are doing. <P>Well, Renae, I don't know what else to say here. Your choices are your choices and mine are mine. <P>I am very concerned about you and your children. I feel your counselors are misguided. Sorry, but I do. I hope you remain safe. <P>Will you at least make a safety plan for yourself and your children in case you have to leave suddenly? Please. Pack some overnight items and some money. Keep them in a safe place. Maybe with a friend. Keep gas in your car. <P>Trust your gut on the tension between you and your husband. Remain aware of what's going on at all times. I did these things and I was able to leave the house in 5 minutes flat. I could feel the tension building and knew I had to act before things got worse and I got hurt.<P>Are you aware of the patterns of abuse? 1. Tension-building Phase (the pot is ready to boil over,) 2. The abusive incident, and 3. The "honeymoon phase" where everything is good again. <P>This cycle repeats itself over and over again. <P>I guess thats all for now. Take care of yourself and I look forward to hearing from you soon.<P>Hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart & Renae,<P>I've read with interest your latest postings. All three of us really share a lot in common. I believe our sharing this is really helpful.<P>There have been some key points in these postings. First, that is that as long as the abuser continues in abuse, there is no relationship. Trying to work on relational issues with an abuser is is impossible (dangerous?).<P>Second, the more you confront the abuse, the worse it gets. There may very well be a point at which you have to leave to get away from it and be emotionally (physically) safe. Even though Evans says your goal is to confront every instance of abuse, that is REALLY hard. You REALLY pay the price with it!<P>There are times when I've had to leave for short periods of time just to get away from it. Never overnight, but many times a few hours. I usually go to the office which is good because I'm away from it, but bad because I'm alone. I haven't every feared for physical safety during these times, but certainly feared for my emotional well-being. Being attacked and shredded, and always in front of my daughters, never feels good. So anyway, I agree with the idea of leaving if you need to.<P>Yesterday, I invited some friends over the watch the hockey game last night. I paid for it all day. Another way in which my W controls things is by refusing to clean the house. Things are left in a mess most of the time. However, when guests are invited, there is a sudden need to clean everything perfectly so the guests won't find out who we really are. Keeping secrets--does that sound familiar? Anyway, there were continual attempts to sabatage the day yesterday and continual stabs of abusive behavior. At one point, I asked my daughter if she would get me the vaccuum cleaner. My W shouted "PLEASE" can't you ever say please when you want something. Then the next minute she is ordering us around like a drill seargent. After watching what happened yesterday, I'm more determined that ever to invite guests over--for me--to fill my emotional lovebank. And I'm not ever again going to buy into cleaning up just to impress the guests. I refuse to be controlled that way. I guess from that standpoint, yesterday was a good learning experience. I'm always learning and it never ceases to amaze me what new surprise is around the corner.<P>I guess that's all for now. You're both in my prayers.<P>Gogie

Hopefulheart, I do know about cycles. You are so wonderful to make sure Gogie & I know these things! I only wish I'd known this stuff 15 years ago, because it is really awful going thru the years with no understanding of abuse but living it one episode after another, confused, hurting, lacking knowledge! My knowledge of abuse was limited to "physical beating", while what I deal with is spiritual, emotional, mental, relational, social, etc. My reading and internet contact has been a lifesaver for me. <P>Yes, Gogie & Hopeful Heart, there is danger to confronting an abuser. My current therapy situation is only having us together yet this week, then they want to get him alone. I really dread this last couple time....but it is the last.<BR>I have been through enough. The best thing about them (compared to previous counselors) is they understand the spiritual abuse and "shame-basedness" that is driving H.<BR>Nobody else has dug into his family background, etc. So I give H this gift of help, my last sacrificial love for H,and it is up to him to take the gift. And if he refuses, I can go in peace, and stand before my God that I have done all I can do for him. <P>Hopefulheart, I think his parents should urge him not only to see his pastor, but get intense therapy from those trained to work with abusers and shame issues. <BR>And to you, I am so grateful you have survived, and you will <BR>go on to have a rich full life....God loves you dearly!!<P>Gogie, the cleaning up episode reminds me of what I went through at Christmas with H. He went wild because I was having my family (parents & brother only) here and he had a mess....it was near midnight before & he was frantically cleaning (wanted it perfect)...I tried to calm him, that if he just pushed it to that side of the room, that it would look fine. He raged at me to call my parents and cancel! I told him, if I cancel, then your elderly dad isn't coming either! Well, at one point in his rage he came after me and threw me into the stairway, etc. The next morning my soul was in such distress, I could hardly cook dinner! I'm determined, next Christmas will be peace on earth!!<P>Because Counselors (previous)urged us to communicate, H is now coming and asking "Do you want to talk?" just so he can tell them he has no problem, it is me who won't answer!!!<BR>So, if I talk with him, it goes crazy and if I don't it goes crazy!! No wonder I want out!!!!!<P>Yes, Hopefulheart, I do have a bag packed. All three of us share alot in common, and I'm so glad we've met at this time in history! It is exactly what is needed! My love to you both!!! <P>Stay safe!!<P><BR>

Hi Gogie and Renae,<P>I enjoyed reading your new posts very much. <P>Gogie, I think you are right in your observations of the points made in the last couple of posts. Setting limits and bringing up abuse with the abuser DOES DETERMINE whether or not an abusive person is willing to change. There is a risk in determining that because the abuse may escalate. But in a way, that can be a good thing because then you know where things stand. There's no denying it then!<P>This morning when I woke up I started thinking about my life and what I want it to be. I also went and looked through my old journals dating back to 1992. WOW!! Some powerful stuff in there. Lots of quotes in there about critical comments from my husband. Each time, they seemed to center around my successes or attempts to grow as a person.<P>Like when I was making a stained glass keleidoscope (Which sold for $200.00) As I was making it he said it was flawed and should not be sold. Later, he said it should be sold at a discount. The list of these situations goes on and on!!<P>Also comments in there from my son that I should divorce his dad because he is so mean and critical of him. <P>My daughter said yesterday that she remembers wanting to hang out with her dad when she was 4 and 5 as he was out in the yard doing yardwork. She said he always told her to go away. Then she said, "I was just a little girl then. I never had a dad to love me." That hurt so much to hear.<P>In my journal I can see I was thinking about divorce back then but noted that I had too much guilt about leaving my husband to do so. Lots of "I want it to work and have a good relationship" comments.<P>Well, enough of that for now.<P>I'm going for a walk on the beach today after I drop my daughter off at the pool with her friends. Then I will be doing some marketing for my publishing business. Hope your day goes well.<P>Hopefulheart

Dear Renae & Hopefulheart,<P>I too appreciated your latest postings. I also believe it was no accident that we found each other in this way. Your stories and insights have given me much to think about and ideas for change. I'm really thankful.<P>Renae, God bless you for the gift to your H. What an honorable thing to do by putting yourself at risk this way. When are you done with the therapy sessions with H?<P>Hopefulheart, You seemed at peace yesterday even though the storm is still there. I trust you had a peaceful time at the beach. Remind me again, when are you taking action on the divorce?<P>I thought I would get your thoughts on something. My W and I do not have sex much any more. I think it is because of the fact that we really don't have and never really had a relationship. When we have it, it's really satisfying. It's during times of "calm"--with no strong abuse going on. During the last couple of years when I confronted the abuse more and more, it's become less and less. I feel like in a way, this is contributing toward my W feeling rejected. She may wonder why we don't have much of a physical relationship when she knows it's an important aspect of a relationship for a man. So...I guess the question is how do you have this aspect of a relationship when the rest of the relationship is at best in shambles and at worst non-existent?<P>I'm going for an early-morning bike ride and will be praying for you both.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Gogie,<BR>Thank you for your prayers! I don't know when therapy will be done here. We've been meeting all together 'til H felt comfortable with them & just once more now with that. I have had conversations with her alone also. Next we are doing these lifestyle assessments on each of us (looks at personal history), and then do intensive work with H alone (as long as he's willing).<P>I was just re-reading the post of yours on page 1 where you mentioned your wife's childhood abuse. Even if your W won't go to counseling, would she listen to tapes? I ran across an impressive tape set "Binding the Wounds" and book "Belonging" by Ron & Nancy Rockey, which prompts people with abusive backgrounds to begin a road to recovery. Go to <A HREF="http://www.itsfixable.com." TARGET=_blank>www.itsfixable.com.</A> Maybe they conduct seminars in your area? Check it out! The tapes are kinda "wordy" with stories etc. but much substance too! It could be the beginning of change for your W. I learned alot that even helped heal me and gave insight into my H that I found nowhere else! One problem with the tapes is that they are from one seminar, and they refer to handouts and charts that you can't get. But it is not a major problem.<P>Also, have you done any study regarding "shame" & "shame-based" & "spiritual abuse"? (authors John Bradshaw, Jeff Vanvonderan, Ken Blue, Keith Miller, etc)It is the root of alot of other garbage in our lives (abuse, addictions, codependency, etc) but can be effectively dealt with. This has been very liberating for me and very helpful in understanding H. <P>Yes, the sexual area is a real problem. I have always believed it is an expression of the oneness developed in all other areas of the relationship. Well, what if all the other oneness doesn't exist and you're in incredible pain from abuse? At times I have felt violated, used, etc. The first half of our marriage he was controlling & abusive in this area (demanded it on his terms, etc)but fortunately has quit that. But the memories are hard to overcome. Another conflict is eeven when you don't want it with your spouse (you're hurt & need to heal spiritually and emotionally & don't want to feel more violated), the physical drive is still there! UGH! I don't pretend to have the answers to this! H used to be quick to preach scripture at me--don't use it as a weapon, only refrain when it's agreed upon. Well, in our situation, I have had to say no firmly and explain that I'm so emotionally hurt I just can't! <P>Hope this is helpful. I've gotta go here...<P>Peace to you,<BR>~Renae<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 11, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 11, 2001).]

Hi Renae,<P>Thanks for your thoughts. Another thing that struck me is that when you're in an abusive relationship, things get really confusing. For example, there are issues that I need to work on to be a better husband and father. However, these get blurred when dealing with the abuse. When you're constantly battling your spouse over the abuse-related issues, it's hard (impossible?) to focus on the "real" issues--how can I better meet my spouse's needs, how can work together on a financial budget, what shall we do about our kid's school, etc. etc. There doesn't seem to be any common ground from which to begin.<P>I'll check out those resources you mentioned. They sound really good. I'm not sure if W would listen to tapes or not. Maybe it's worth a try...In the meantime, I'm praying for something to get her attention to realize that she needs help.<P>Bye for now,<BR>Gogie

Dear Gogie,<P>Good morning !!! Glad you got a bike ride in today. Doesn't it feel good emotionally ? I went for a walk on the beach again. Totally foggy out today but it still felt good.<P>Well, to answer your questions and observations. Yes, I was at peace yesterday ... until the evening came and some pain set in around the loss of my marriage. Reflecting on the good times we had during the first couple of years of our marriage does that to me. I miss that. I also notice that I have sadness on the weekends. I guess because the weekends seem like family time. But that's not possible for us anymore.<P>Despite this, I am comforted by the fact that this pain is a normal part of loss and that the pain is no longer so intensely painful. It's more like a twinge than the raw, deep ache it use to be. The kind that lasts for hours and hurts more than anything in the world. Those days seem to be gone, thankfully.<P>I plan to file the divorce papers this week. I know that step is going to create some pretty strong feelings for me. Be prepared !!! <P>You know Gogie, I asked my h yesterday, "What do you hope to get out of going to see the minister?" (the appointment is for today) Remember, you asked that question of me and I felt that he was doing so simply to say to his family that he did. Well his answer confirmed my belief. He replied, "Because this whole thing affects my family too, and they should have a say in this."<P>I guess I wanted to hear something else like, "Because I want to see if our marriage can be saved" or something like that. Wishful thinking on my part. So far, he is passively letting it all happen. I really wish, sometimes, that he would stop using alcohol and drugs long enough to feel his feelings. Maybe there would be a chance for us. <P>Now, about the sexual fulfillment issue. I'm sorry you are missing that. I am too. It seems that this issue is not easily separated out from all the other issues that occur in a relationship. Lovemaking is such an intimate act and one of the most beautiful expressions of love for each other. When there is so much hurt, anger, etc.. going on, it is very difficult to connect.<P>And darn, our bodies do miss it don't they? Actually, I miss the intimacy so much. There are times when I have been very tempted to reconnect with my h simply for the sexual fulfillment. I know that is a set up to get hurt again later, however. I continue to tell myself that other areas of the relationship must improve first, before I would ever have sex again with him. <P>There are no easy answers here. It hurts.<P>I am just so thankful I have you and Renae here to connect with and make this whole thing a little bit easier. <P>Stay well today, ok? <BR>Hopefulheart<P>

(((((Hopefulheart)))))) I feel for you! You will keep growing, healing, becoming more whole & beautiful!! <P>Is your H in denial about his alcohol/drug problem, the abuse, the effects of it all on the marriage, kids, etc.? Has he ever been to group meetings for Alanon or the drug one, 12 step groups, anger management, or??? If he's in complete denial, the minister could be a wake-up call for him that he's in serious trouble, and offer him the only way out and on to growth and healing--God....<P>I like hearing Keith Miller (was an alcoholic too!) on tape, talk of the 12 steps, where he repeats the step saying "my life had become unmanageable", and how he turned to his higher power....<P>There truly is no hope for any human soul until he turns to the God who made him, confesses his sick condition, is willing to give it up and allows God to make him into a "new creature in Christ". Fortunate for me, I was led to Christ by a minister when I was 10...it has been this God-connection that has defined my existence regardless of what circumstances life brings. It is the only answer for anyone. Sad that people have to hit such hard brick walls before they find God, yet worse that some choose to remain sick and stubbornly caught in the abuse of their own soul. I pray for your H!!<P>And for you, Hopefulheart, He is there to meet you and surround you with his love. <P>

Dear Hopefulheart & Renae,<P>I had a great bike ride this morning. I live in the Rocky Mountain West (Colorado) where the air this time of year is cool, crisp early in the morning. I spent quite a little time praying for both or you as I rode around.<P>Hopefulheart--I really like that name--full of hope for the future; heart--your soul--the essence of who you are. I really pray for your heart to be whole; full of hope and joy.<P>Renae--I really pray the same for you--love, joy, peace, goodness in your life. I really admire your faith. It's precious to God (see 1 Peter 1:6-7).<P>Wanna know where the name Gogie came from? My youngest daughter when she was real little asked for cookies. Except it came out "gogies". So, I affectionately started calling her Gogie. I don't use it with her much anymore; but I still remember her as my little Gogie. It's a silly name, but shows where my heart is.<P>One of the most fortunate things for me is that I have people at work that I have a normal relationship with. Just being able to talk to people--even about difficult issues--adult to adult is satisfying.<P>Did you ever notice that your spouse likes to talk to you adult to child--they're the adult and you're the little child. Or sometimes, they switch to child and you're the big bad daddy or mommy. But rarely adult-to-adult. Fits with what we know about abuse--huh?<P>Until later,<BR>Gogie

Oh, I just love how you got the name, Gogie!!! And <BR>Hopefulheart is so special too!! <P>The name I chose is similar to an affectionate name given me by my grandfather whose love for me I will always cherish.<P>I just went "a couple rounds" with H today, and I'm exhausted and hurting. I simply tried to communicate a need, and he fails to see the need and preaches his stuff instead (spiritual abuse). UGH!!!!!! How can I have faith for him to grow when his patterns are seemingly woven into his very skin!?! But I will, once more. <P>Gogie...good point about being treated like a child! <BR>That's what I long for too...adult to adult communication!<P>

(((((Renae))))) for the exhaustion and hurt you're feeling today. I pray you can get through this difficult week.<P>Gogie

Dearest Gogie,<P>When you said that about my user name, I felt really validated and appreciated. Thanks!!!!!<P>Like Renae, I enjoyed your story about your user name. That was so endearing. You seem like a very loving, kind person.<P>Wouldn't it be nice if your w could see that about you? I guess she's too caught up in herself to see the forest for the trees.<P>Boy could I relate to the communication style you mentioned - parent/child, child/parent. (I might add to that, critical parent!) as opposed to adult/adult. That has been my experience so many times in my relationship with my h. <P>You know what? He told me a long time ago that his first wife, (married previous to me for two years,) use to complain to him about that. That he talked down to her and made her feel stupid. Apparently she caught on to him in a hurry and got out. Then there's me, hopeful to the end. <P>Guess what though! My hope use to be in my relationship, now it is in my future and in all the things I do in the present to make the second half of my life better. <P>Have a good evening......<P>hopefulheart<P>