Dear Renae,<P>Sorry you went through what you did. Your h and mine must be made out of the same mold! (Size extra large abuser!!)<P>I know, not that funny but I tried. <P>To be honest, I am secretly, (not so secretly now,) waiting for the day you and your children are safe for good. <P>I am so thankful I have disengaged from trying to discuss any needs with my h. Ends in a fight everytime with him telling me that what I'm saying is wrong, my fault, etc... I don't miss that at all. I wish that for you too. But in your own time. <P>Yes, my h denies his problems on all counts. It's too long of a story to put here but just yesterday he denied that he drank a whole bottle of rum while my daughter and I left, (with the exception of two or three ounces.) <P>It's out of my hands now. I've done all I can do. <P>Hope tomorrow goes better for you. Keep me updated on your therapy progress ok?<P>All for now....<P>Hopefulheart<P>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Thanks for YOUR kind words. It is nice to be validated by someone who you know is going thru the same kinds of struggles, isn't it? It's also great to hear your confidence about the future. I know there is a bright future waiting for you. You're a woman of incredible value--you deserve it!<P>Bye for now,<BR>Gogie

((((((Gogie)))))) and (((((((Hopefulheart))))))<BR>Thank you for the kindness and support we share! Asking God tonight for peaceful rest, for healing and a future of joy!<BR> <P>

Dear Renae & Hopefulheart,<P>I took another bike ride this morning. It struck me as I was riding how much our spouses need our prayers. They certainly are accountable for their actions and the various types of abuses are totally inappropriate. We can only hope and pray that they get the help they need. In the mean time, we need to do the "right thing" which includes guarding our hearts and self-esteem and moving on with our lives.<P>Best wishes for a great day!<BR>Gogie

Gogie, you are motivating me to get my bike out again! I rode with the girls some time ago, but what fun to do so again! <P>After that free breezy thought, Gogie & Hopefulheart, I have something heavy to mention! I have tried so hard to set my feelings aside to listen for God and find the Biblical path to dealing with my marriage situation. Since God designed each of us as individuals and the marriage covenant, then he must have a way for it to be harmonious and conflicts resolved. Well....<P>This morning I ran across an insightful, 37-page article called "Reclaiming The Church's Jurisdiction over Marriage" (go to <A HREF="http://www.familylife.com" TARGET=_blank>www.familylife.com</A> and click on Resources, then click on Marriage Covenant with Binding Arbitration Clause, then MCBAC)<P>I think Mr. Sims is correct! This really confirms what I have been in the process of doing since last August when I began to bring my marriage to the church for confronting H. <P>After reading this, I really encourage you, Hopefulheart, of the importance of bringing your situation before a Godly minister of the gospel!! I do believe it would be a mistake for your H's minister not to be contacted!! <BR>Gogie, since you are a deacon, you may find this article very applicable to your church and your marriage also. Bringing a wayward spouse to accountability is crucial! This doesn't mean we can't separate to be safe while the process is going on. <P>Hopefulheart, I know you've tried everything, and it is not fun to hear of doing one more thing, but I feel an intense prompting inside me to share this with you and Gogie in love. I know your situations are very sensitive, as mine is, so I don't mean to mess up your feelings; however I believe the prompting I feel just now is that God would have me to mention this, and...<P>I do know that someday we will all be accountable to God for how we handled this crisis in our lives, whether we sought to please God and abide by his standards of attempting to redeem the situation, or if we just came up with our own way. Doing things God's way always is the best, not always easiest but best. <P>Love to you both!,<BR>Your friend in the struggles!,<BR>Renae<P>

Wow Renae--this is heavy stuff! In principle it seems to make sense. In practice, I have questions. I'm wondering if this MCBA would need to be "in place" in a church prior to it's implementation. Who would administer it? What if one spouse ignores it? What if one spouse leaves and goes to another church? Then which church takes the lead? What happens as church leadership changes?<P>I've wondered before about the idea of applying the principles of church discipline to a maritial situation. This info has caused me to do more wondering.<P>Yes, we are your friends in the struggles. I'm praying that your struggle might be a little lighter today.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Renae,<BR>I also had this thought. If Hopefulheart's H is a substance and alchohol abuser, wouldn't it make sense for the church to discipline HIM for these issues and the condition of their marriage rather than dragging Hopefulheart into it? She's a victim, not a perpetrator. So maybe there's nothing to arbitrate until he gets the "discipline" or help he needs. I guess I'm wondering how arbitration applies in an abuse situation?<P>Gogie

Wow, Gogie!..did you skim that whole 37 page article already? That's quick! Thanks SO MUCH for your thoughts!!! It means alot to me! <P>I'm not sure exactly how a church would deal with Hopefulheart's situation. If her H is in such terrible denial, she would probably be asked for a verbal or written account of their reality so the church knows the truth and can devise a plan of how best to confront and work with him. Otherwise I agree, Gogie, that Hopefulheart should then be allowed to separate as she needs to live peacefully while he's getting help. She deserves the peace! (((Hopefulheart))) If he would refuse to continue at any time, then I think scripturally she would be free. <P>Right, Gogie? <P>

Dear Renae,<BR>In my mind, Hopefulheart's H is in denial of any problem. The visit to the pastor is only to prove that he's right, she's wrong, and to appease his family--in other words, for show. Hopefully, the church will figure out what's going on and confront him about his behavior. Her filing for divorce speaks for itself regarding his behavior and the marriage. In the mean time unless he comes to grips with his alchohol, substance, and verbal abuse, repents, seeks counsel, and straightens himself up, there's nothing left for her to do--she's already free. If he does go thru the necessary steps, then she's free to choose to reconcile the marriage or not. I don't know if I'm on theologically "thin ice" or not, but I feel like I'm not far off.<P>Hopefulheart, I'll look forward to hearing back from you on this.<P>Renae, It's great to be able to have these discussions which are supportive and enriching. Your a wonderful woman to get to know in this way.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Hi Gogie and Renae,<P>You two have been busy sorting things out while I was at work haven't you? <P>Renae, I get the impression that you are trying to save my marriage for me. I could be wrong but that's my impression. That's not something you have the power to do, unfortunately.<P>Let me assure you, I did not make my decision to divorce in haste. It was one of the most painful things I have ever gone through and it came after attempts to gain my husbands understanding and willingness to work out our problems. <P>Our whole family was in serious crisis in March - my daughter - suicidal and cutting herself, (49 cuts to her arms,) my son almost dying from an overdose of LSD and in the hospital for a couple days. Prior to this, neither of my children has been any trouble at all. This was a wake-up call for me. I took it as a sign that the problems in our family are serious and my children's lives are at risk. A risk I am not willing to take. I love my children more than words can express. I would do anything for them and decided I would do what it took to help them. That meant therapy to deal with the problems they were expressing indirectly.<P>The way my h responded to my daughter's problem was that it is My fault because I don't descipline her enough. I'm a bad parent, etc... that really hurt. I told him what I really needed to hear was that I am a good mother and we will get through this.<P>I dealt with and paid for all the psychiatric evaluations, medication, and therapy for her myself. She was out of school for one and a half months and a teacher came to our house 4 times per week. <P>My son moved out of the house in March also, citing that he could no longer be around his dad and that if he had died in the hospital it wouldn't have mattered to him. <P>Then, we all go to family therapy and my h denies any part in what is occurring. The therapist asked us each to talk about what part we play in the problems occurring in our family. My h refused to say he had a part. Instead he blamed us all, over and over again. The therapist did not let him slide on this and really confronted him and held him accountable. He still refused. She pleaded with him to work at this or he would lose his whole family. Still, nothing. <P>Then we meet with the therapist as a couple. Still lots of blame towards me and no willingness to work with the process. The therapist gave us an extra 45 minutes at no charge to really give her efforts to our marriage. My husband swore he would not experience any pain if he and I separated. He said it would be a relief for him not to have to worry about us and that he is fine with a separation. That really gave me no hope. <P>Right after this couple's session, his abuse escalated to the point where my daughter and I had to leave. He was threatening me and also telling me that I will just have to put up with his abuse because I am trapped. <P>At first, I cried until I was exhausted, on a daily basis. During that period of time he would tell me things like: "You're making this harder than it has to be" and "You're always grieving" when he saw me cry. He also said, "You're the one that wants the marriage to end" and "You're the one who doesn't want to work things out". <P>Notice the contradicting messages.<P>He has no interest in doing anything to save our marriage and now that I have stopped asking him to, he no longer abuses me. <P>Gogie you're right, the trip to the minister was for "show" and nothing more. If not for his family, he would not have done it. I asked how it went. He said, "ok" and that was it.<P>He got high 3 hours before he went. No clear and willing heart and mind there!!!<P>You know, Renae, at first I felt like you are challenging my decision and have not walked in my shoes. <P>I realize we are in different places in terms of how we handle the abuse. I also realize that this may be difficult to deal with. Here we are, trying to support each other while we do different things. That can be tricky!!!<P>I believe we are both doing what we need to do at this point in time. Maybe you have also felt judgement from me when I talk about wanting safety for you. I am sorry if I come across that way.<P>But...the more I have to name the reasons why I am doing what I am doing, the more I know it is the right thing for me and my daughter. It reaffirms my decision. <P>My son tells me he is less stressed since moving out and no longer feels like he has to be on guard all the time around his dad. He is finally safe, and someday my daughter and I will be too.<P>Renae, I wish you the best as you walk this difficult path. <P>Gogie, thanks for being there for me. I love and appreciate that more than you know.<P>hopefulheart...<BR>

Dear Hopefulheart,<BR>Your story reconfirms with me that you're doing the right thing. It appears that you have given your H more than adequate opportunities to take responsibility for his behavior. Your taking action regarding your children was really the right thing to do. Without you to protect them, where would they be?<P>Your H is about to lose everything that has meaning in life. If this is not a wake-up call, I don't know what is. It's now up to him to respond or "crash and burn". I'm really sad for him, you, and your kids.<P>Continuing to pray for you and your kids...<P>Love,<BR>Gogie

Dear Renae & Hopefulheart,<P>I thought about you both as I rode my bike this morning. My heart breaks for the pain you must be feeling. I pray you can get thru this week.<P>My W is into the silent treatment this week. Hasn't said much all week. Tries to avoid me whenever possible. Short and snippy when she does say anything. Won't tell me anything about what's going on with the kids, summer school, etc. I'm trying to be positive about things.<P>Last evening, I visited a neighbor who has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. God impressed on me a couple of weeks ago to minister to him during the time he has left. It was a good visit. I prayed with him and his wife before leaving.<P>One thing that struck me about this visit was how good a relationship this couple has. They are in their early 70s and seem to have such an honest, free-flowing relationship. They love each other very much and are very supportive of one-another during this difficult time. What a joy it was to see that. It's something I long for, but may never have.<P>Love to both of you,<BR>Gogie

Gogie & Hopefulheart, pardon me, I don't mean to hurt anybody here,...it's just ME realizing more thoroughly the significance of church involvement in marital conflict. To me the worst thing has been feeling ALONE in this terrible hurt and confusion, but I realize now that couples should not have to fight these things out alone, as most couples do! The article made it clear for me that the church has a responsibility in this as part of the gospel message. <P>Because marriage is a covenant between a couple and God, not just a legal agreement or contract, it needs to be brought before the church regardless of either spouses' motives or drunken condition. I believe now that since Hopefulheart's H went to the minister and walked away with no conscience before God, the Matt. 18 confrontation has been fulfilled, & Matt. 19 calls him a man with hardness of heart and it's on to divorce. I had no question about the severity of your situation, I just wanted the scripture fulfilled, and it has been now!! <P>No need for explanations, Hopefulheart, you are in the company here of those who UNDERSTAND and reach out in cyberspace to hug you and validate you!!!....<P>Yet I thank you a million for all you've written, which has helped me put my situation in perspective even more, so that like you, I am convinced beyond doubt I am moving in the right direction!! THANK YOU!!! I wish there were ways to erase memories & scars but I know, Hopefulheart, you are such a help to others who are sitting confused in abusive situations....you are able to turn the light on for them to see the truth and way out!! <P>Tonight my H and I will go to therapy (they are professional psychotherapists but also connected to a pastor who knows my situation). Gogie, H's church type doesn't know how to deal with inner shame issues, spiritual abuse, etc., so I had to go on to my current situation. In my heart, I am giving H over to God in all of this. If he doesn't respond with repentance and desire to grow, then perhaps legal separation will be next. <P>Hopefulheart and Gogie, thank you so much for being there for me!! Hopefulheart's courage is rubbing off on me!! And Gogie, thank you for letting me process my "theologicial" thoughts!! <P>Comfort & Blessings to you today!!

Dear Renae,<BR>There no hurt feelings from me. I appreciate your thoughts and ideas which are helpful, insightful, and supportive. I will really be praying for you today as you go in for this last therapy session. Peace and hope to you! Yes, cyberspace hugs! (((((Renae)))))-->I really like this little symbol you came up with.<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Gogie

Dear Renae,<P>There are no hurt feelings from me at all towards you, believe me. It is only that we do not share the same desire to include the church and scripture in the decisions we make about our abusive marriages. I hope you are able to understand that.<P>You noted that you "just wanted the scripture fulfilled" That has not been my goal. So we depart on this issue. As I said before, I am not qualified to speak about religious issues. I simply want support around the everyday issues and struggles that occur in my life regarding my situation.<P>I hope you understand, Renae. It's not about hurt feelings, but about differences in how we handle our situations. I still care about you and what you are going through. I respect what you have been through. <P>I know you and Gogie can have these philosophical discussions and that he is more qualified than I am to speak to these issues. <P>Anyway, I hope you understand. <P>I am anxiously awaiting a report about your therapy session and hope it goes well.<P>hopefulheart<P>

Dear Renae & Hopefulheart,<P>Basic Rights in a Relationship:<P>The right of goodwill from the other.<P>The right to emotional support.<P>The right to be heard by the other and to be responded to with courtesy.<P>The right to have your own view, even if your mate has a different view.<P>The right to have your feelings and experience acknowledged as real.<P>The right to receive a sincere apology for any jokes you find offensive.<P>The right to clear and informative answers to questions that concern what is legitimately your business.<P>The right to live free from accusation and blame.<P>The right to live free from criticism and judgment.<P>The right to have your work and your interests spoken of with respect.<P>The right to encouragement.<P>The right to live free from emotional and physical threat.<P>The right to live free from angry outbursts and rage.<P>The right to be called by no name that devalues you.<P>The right to be respectfully asked rather than ordered.<P>...Though these rights have been violated in our marriage relationships, they are still valid. They are also goals to strive for in our good relationships.<P>Thoughtfully,<BR>Gogie

Hopefulheart, I'm so thankful for the respect & loving support between us!! <P>Gogie, thank you for posting these Basic Rights in a Relationship! I pray all three of us can gain the personal dignity and all the ground we've lost along the way, having been trampled underfoot by abuse and neglect. I will never forget Dr. Harley's talk about "neglect" as being abuse. He had said, you wouldn't leave a room unpainted for many years nor would you buy any old paint (no thought to the color or quality) to put on it. People exercise more care for the walls in their house than in their relationships!<P>Gogie, what specifically touched you about Dr. Stanley's <BR>advice concerning our "unmet needs"? <BR> <BR>Hopefulheart, you are a gem of great value! Your personal gifts (abilities/talents) will spring up; creativity will flow again! Please do come back here frequently and let us all know how you're doing!! We're cheering you on!! <P>

Renae,<P>"And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus". Philippians 4:19. Dr. Stanley explains there is something deep within this process that God wants us to learn. We begin to understand just how committed He is to meeting our needs when we learn to accept His will as being perfect. We also must acknowledge that His timing is right just as His strength is sufficient and His love is eternal.<P>How do you handle your unmet needs? Begin with prayer. Acknowledge your need and the burden that you are carrying. Claim God’s promises. Seek God’s direction. Be willing to wait. Thank God in advance for His provision.<P>Only God can completely meet your unmet needs. Trust Him--give Him your burden to carry and you will witness a tremendous miracle. He will resurrect your hope and give you the breath of new life.<P>That's a brief synopsis of what he has to say about the subject.<P>Take care in the counseling session tonight.<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Gogie<P>

Wow, am I feeling low tonight. I went home from work and it started right up. The kids fought, kicked, spit, and called each other horrible names. I tried to let them know how offensive this was, but couldn't even get the words out before my oldest daughter threw a blanket my way and said I didn't care and wouldn't do anything about her sister. The youngest daughter consistently abuses the older one by calling her fat, ugly, sickening, etc. etc. The older retaliates by hitting, name calling, kicking, etc. etc. My W screams at them, then blames me for their behavior. The same happened tonight. Seeing how ugly this was getting, I changed clothes, put my shoes on and walked out the door. Before leaving, my oldest asked where was I going? To see my counselor? To go write things down somewhere? I'm real scared, she said. My W yells as I'm leaving "you don't want to work thru things Gogie".<P>I'm not sure how much longer I can take this. I have no family. The family I had is in a constant environment of abuse and dysfunction. They blame me for all the problems. In fact, I am the problem as far as they are concerned.<P>A couple of years ago, I drew the line in the sand saying that if things didn't change, I would explore my options. I've given it two years and it's gotten worse. It's time to look at those options again.<P>I'm just real sad right now. And alone. Back at the office feeling sorry for myself I admit.<P>Gogie

Dearest Gogie,<P>How sad things are for you right now. I'm sorry about that. Are you taking good care of yourself? I hope so, because this situation must be so distressful.<P>Gogie, two things came to mind as I read your post: <P>It sounds like your oldest daughter is so unhappy about what is occurring in your family - just as you are. She is being abused. Do you think she was asking you for help tonight? Like, "Where are you going, please don't leave me in this chaos, I don't know what to do? <P>OR was it, (unconsciously)<P>"If you leave us right now, who will we all look to and blame to take the focus off the real issues we have between us?" (scapegoating)<P>Funny, you and I (and I think Renae too,) have each given our marriages two years to turn around for the better. And here we are two years later at a critical juncture.<P>You mentioned the possibility of exploring options. What options have you thought about in the past, if any? <P>Hang in there Gogie, ok?<P>Hopefulheart