Do you guys remember the lingerie your wife has? That is one of the things that really bothers me, because my husband doesn't even remember stuff I wore in bed on our honeymoon, and it's all etched in my mind forever. I think he just has seen so much that it doesn't matter and it's not important. I remember the different variations of his underwear, and it's all white. He also doesn't remember the first time I gave him oral sex, either. That really, really crushed me. I just feel like nothing was really special to him like it is to me. Why even bother with it if he won't remember it?<P>Once I talked to him about how I felt, that I was having a hard time trusting him, that his past still hurts me sometimes, I felt a lot better. I can say that I do trust him now. <P>

PrettyG,<BR>I’m glad you’re venting some. It’s good to find somewhere to complain. <BR>I don’t think that having sex with you is a generic experience for your husband. Take a look at Josephina’s post on page one. Memory is a funny thing. Ever get together with old friends and find they don’t remember some of your favorite moments? You can’t judge someone based upon what they remember, or you’re going to be very frustrated. <BR>People will tend to remember their first times best. Your husband can’t help that. Your firsts were all with him so you remember better than he does.<BR>Men don’t remember a lot of things that are important to women. I once had an embarrassing moment when I didn’t know my wife’s eye color. I’m grateful she didn’t make a big deal out of it. Your husband may not remember the outfits you wear, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t like them. He knows exactly what you look like without them. <BR>You can’t let insecurity take the fun out of sex. I’ve done that plenty myself. Fearing that you can’t compete with his past is a self-fulfilling prophesy. I say work hard at being the best and don’t make him guess what your needs are. Life is too short to wait for him to figure you out. He’s never dealt with this problem, and you can’t expect him to know what to say, so why not figure it out for him? Why don't you take him under your wing and be the leader?<BR>For me it’s largely a self-esteem issue. Her experience makes me feel small. I try to break that feeling by taking the lead. I have to develop my self-confidence if I’m going to be the best lover imaginable, and being the best is the only way to blow the past away.<BR>

I was hoping it was just a "guy thing". He did say that he wasn't paying attention to what I was *wearing* at the time. <P>He doesn't remember telling me his deepest darkest secret, because he just reconfided it to me last night and was terrified that I would hate him because of it. He had told me about it long before we were married. I figure if he doesn't remember that, and I know it was important to him, then he is excused for the other stuff on the grounds of being a guy. (I also tend to have a super-memory for conversations, and I have to take that into account.) Anyway, I am not worried about it any more.

h<p>[This message has been edited by howard (edited August 13, 2001).]

Ladies and Gentlemen,<P>I think one thing is being forgotten in this very interesting discussion. Your spouses chose to marry you. They chose to have children with you. No matter how good the people in their lives were or weren't, for none of them did they stand before God and choose. You were choosen.<P>Roscoe said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <BR>You can’t let insecurity take the fun out of sex. I’ve done that plenty myself. Fearing that you can’t compete with his past is a self-fulfilling prophesy. I say work hard at being the best and don’t make him guess what your needs are. Life is too short to wait for him to figure you out. He’s never dealt with this problem, and you can’t expect him to know what to say, so why not figure it out for him? Why don't you take him under your wing and be the leader? For me it’s largely a self-esteem issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think he was dead on target. Your H's and W's have been faithful to you, loving to you, and folks that is a gift. I know you realize this, but it is probably also true that if the sex was casual, so was it's meaning to them. Maybe there was one guy or girl, that was spectatularly adept at sex, but clearly that wasn't enough for your spouses to want to marry them or in fact to marry them.<P>How can I say this? I had many partners in my youth. Didn't marry until my 30's. Many of the woman I dated were models and stunningly beautiful women, more beautiful (technically) than my W. But my W was the one, and we have been married 26 years. Do I think of the many other partners? No, not really I don't. Do I regret the partners? No I don't. Why? because I learned so much from them. Some of the things I learned was what true beauty was, what I was and wasn't looking for in a W. When I found her, she was the right one, and it wasn't about sex at that point either.<P>Ladies and Gentlemen, you chose your H's and W's for your own reasons. So did your spouse. The difference in their case is that they had more data to work with and having that data they chose you. In some ways they should be more afraid than you, afraid that you will wonder about what you missed and want to try someone else.<P>I am not advocating premarital sex. I am saying that with everything there are positives and negatives. By having sex before marriage you can be assured that your spouse has been hurt in the past, for it is a very intimate thing. On the other hand, they choose you.<P>So think about Roscoe's advice, and think about your spouse's concern for your acceptance of them. Then realize that you are happily married to someone who knows the difference and knows you are different. And worth all they endured to find you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

h <p>[This message has been edited by howard (edited August 13, 2001).]

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

Hi, John and everyone here. Roscoe, H and I were preachers until just recently and H may soon be preaching again in a new church.<P>Roscoe, you mentioned hiding your feelings from your W but not yourself? You know that your feelings are not hidden from God...can you bring this issue to Him and seek His peace about it?<P>I am the WS and my H was beautiful to me and still is...I was completely prepared to pack a suitcase and stand in the middle of the street with nowhere to go and no money because I thought that's what H would want when I confessed. (We fought hard to keep from having sex before M--I wanted to wear white so much and entering ministry together, I wanted to be honorable but my those hormones! We did succeed and then had problems early in our marriage for quite some time as I could not relax after having been trained to say no for so long and also due to childhood abuse--h was incredibly patient with this problem...he told me he loved me and it didn't matter) H was so relieved that I finally told the truth, that he cried and thanked me??? for confessing. He said he was more angry at me during the A which he knew but was in denial over. He was furious with OM. <P>So I had a hard time to receive his love due to my guilt. Things are getting back on track now, thankfully. <P>But John and other sufferers, I agree with JL...you have today. You have your beautiful spouse. They chose you. You have come through heck and high water together and when push comes to shove, you are there for each other in other ways. <P>I have had to think about death as my H found out he had Stage 3 thyroid cancer in 1999. (Stage 4 is terminal) While H had radiation, I decided to live more freely in celebrating the moments. (Unfortunately this is also when I began to fall but I did learn to appreciate life and more so now that H forgave me) H was going to make it and life was/is good! <P>I had a ridiculous A....the guy was ugly and creepy,basically a street person. Why on earth did I get involved with him? I am working out those questions but just yesterday JL and some others reminded me that it's best not to get too bogged down with the past...I can see it's a terrible hold on you and you want to be free of the unforgiveness....it's not easy but please let it go....look at your spouse and remember what it is that draws you to them. Look at the beauty in their eyes, face,in the way you see them, in their parenting of your kids. Thank God that today is not yesterday...why not work out some of your own needs by "kidnapping" W at the grocery store for a date or arranging a candlelight dinner at home, etc? Make some fun happen!!! Take that negative energy and transform it into something happy and good. <P>You just may be very pleasantly surprised by your spouse's reaction! I hope so, anyway. <P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start

h<p>[This message has been edited by howard (edited August 13, 2001).]

Howard,<P>Statistically, her co-workers have ended up roughly this way. About half of them that have married are or will get divorced. If one believes the surveys, about half of the H's will have cheated and about 40% of the W's will have cheated. <P>Given the nature of the co-workers she was with I would suspect that many of them cheated in their marriage and are not happily married.<P>So the question arises in your case. What kind of a W has your wife made. Has she cheated on you? Has she lied to you? I think that the answer is no. You see what you may be overlooking is that some people DO learn from their mistakes. And having learned from their mistakes turn into people we can trust and love.<P>So if your W has been faithful, does love you, and is a good mother to your children, then Howard you were far luckier than you had any right to expect. It is often true that often overlook the good in people to focus on the bad. And often the bad, was nothing more than a learning experience.<P>So Howard step back a second and ask: What kind of woman is my W today? From you post I would guess that she is all you could hope for today. And please remember there are more than a few woman who came to their marriage as virgins who cheated, lied, and left the H's. It happens a lot. Virginity is not a descrimination point for the future. We would like to think it is, but the data doesn't support that concept.<P>Have a look at what you stand to lose, and then consider what your future will be without her.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

See...a big problem here is that unless you're actually in THAT situation, you have no concept of how many hurts there are that go along with it.<P>When my husband is making love to me and whispers "we're one", I think "no, you already gave parts of yourself away, how can WE be one?" Crazy, but that's what I think. How can sex mean something with me but not with others?<P>Or how about when he brings out a scarf and wants to tie me up, and I think "who else has he tied up with that scarf?"<P>Or we go to dinner at friends' of his parents, and his old girlfriend happens to be their daughter, and they had sex...and I'm sitting right across the table from her trying to suppress feelings of wanting to tear her eyeballs out.<P>Or when he gets a letter for his high school reunion, and I think "I can't go, because the whole time I'll be wondering who sucked his [censored]..."<P>Or that I know that statistically, you're more likely to cheat if you've had more partners.<P>Or when I look at his penis and think "where else has that been..."<P>Or when I know that he lost his virginity at his parents house, and I don't want to go in the room it happened in, even though he didn't even like his first time...<P>There are daily reminders.<P>He's also told me that when we're having sex, pictures of other times with other women will flash across his brain. Can you keep stuff from flashing across your brain? No, he can't do it any more than I can keep from thinking the above thought when he says something like that to me. I can choose not to dwell on it, but I can't keep the thought from flashing. I could go on and on about that pain it's caused me. It's caused me that pain because I understand the symbolism and real nature of sex as God designed it. <P>My husband and I DID have sex before we were married. Marriage is a piece of paper to me, I didn't care about it and I knew he was the only one for me ever, in my entire life. But he says sex is different with me now that we're married. Why, he won't tell me. I have no idea what he means.<P>Does my husband tell me I'm the best and prettiest, etc? Yes. I don't worry about that, I'm a hottie and I'm a quick study. <P>I bitterly wish that I could forget all about it. Talking about it helps, coming here helps. But some things are just easier said than done. I think it's like a grieving period, where someone dies and it just takes time to get over it. You have to help yourself get over it, but it's no good ignoring it. It won't just "go away", you have to deal with it. <P>Again, there are daily reminders. You have to make a conscious effort to get past it, but the progress is slow at times.<P>I pray to God he never knows how much pain he caused me by his poor moral choices. He doesn't know how much he's twisted his soul, and I'm just glad God can fix anything.<P>prettygarnet

h <p>[This message has been edited by howard (edited August 13, 2001).]

Roscoe, thanks for answering my question about prayer. I could not pray at all at first after my A and there have been stressful times in the past when I couldn't either.<P>God knows your thoughts and sees your struggle and people are praying for you and others here.<P>So much pain for all of you sharing in this thread...may resolution come to your dilemma and peace be yours soon.

is it true that statistically people who have had lots of lovers are more likely to have A?

My W is the only woman I have even ever kissed. Both of us waited until marriage (not to kiss ). Now she says she wants to try other men. I don't know if she's joking or not. I don't really think so. I mean, when we're together, I'll tell her how beautiful she is, and she'll say "do you think other men would think so?" and I say "uh, I hope they don't have the same opportunity to evaluate your beauty" and she says "I'd like to try and see". I don't know if she's playing with me or what.<P>-AD

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

howard: YES, it is true that statistically, the more partners you've had, the more likely you are to cheat. I forget where I read it, though. <P>My husband thought about cheating on me when we first started dating. He said he wanted to see me exclusively, then got a one night stand offer. He later told me about it, told me he THOUGHT about it, told me he turned it down. Just that he THOUGHT about it, seriously thought about it, is so horrible I can't begin to explain. I would NEVER think about it. The idea of sex with someone else is repulsive to me. I wouldn't have any fun. And I'm not someone with hang-ups about sex. We've talked about this since, and he knows that's one of the reasons I found it hard to trust him for a while.<P>I even pretended to be somebody else and made him offers, but he refused. I know it was dishonest, and it's the worst thing I've ever done behind someone's back, but I HAD to test him before I married him. I HAD to. He didn't show restraint before we were married, why would he show it after? I know he is not like that now. <P>Roscoe and others: I have come a long way in just a few months. The more that I talk about it, especially with my husband, the better it gets.<P>I am lucky because he DOES feel really bad about it, regrets it, and wishes he had lived a good life. I know it kills him to know that he's hurt me. When we see casual sex on tv or come across friends of ours that sleep around, he is really harsh on them and tells me how bad they are, etc. We've talked about why he does that, and it's because he really feels that way about himself. It is really hard to face it, but both of us need to if we're going to grow.<P>I asked him, in a round about way, about the whole "being one" thing. I asked him if he ever felt like he was one with any other girl. He said no, and that even with me at first it didn't feel that way. But then it changed with me, and he realized what he was missing. He also has always had problems coming during sex, and I've read that is because of guilt about it. With me, even at first he did have trouble, but not any more. <P>Because I don't know what it's like to have sex with someone and then not have sex with them any more, I have no idea what you still feel about people you've had sex with. I've heard it's usually not much, and I want to believe that's true. Thing is, what I've experienced with him I know I could never let go of, and if I lost him I would always want him still. But then again, I have experienced only the best way that sex was intended for a man and a woman. I don't know what it's like to have uncommitted sex. I know in the Bible, it says that God makes two people into one, when you get married, and casual relationships or trial marriages are not included in this arrangement. Maybe it is different. <P>I find myself constantly wanting him to tell me how I'm special to him. He doesn't really say, just that I bring him closer to God instead of dragging him away. I guess that is a good thing, but I don't find it fully satisfying to ME as an individual person. I wonder if other women did things for him that he wishes I did. I ask him, but he says there's nothing. <P>My advice about children: Be as open and honest as you can. My siblings and parents were with me, and it saved me a world of pain. <P>Sometimes I have the feeling like "He got off scot-free, and I'm the one that hurts more, and I'm the one that had self-control and all that stuff, and nothing happened to him when he didn't." And I fee, just for a second, like I want him to hurt, and like I want him to 'pay'." This is foolish, because living that life does NOT make you happy, and we've talked about that. I DO, however, think that he needs to think about what he did, and why he did it. When you make a mistake, you need to examine it to make yourself grow. <P>Sometimes I hurt him when I point something out. Like I told him how when we were first dating, he forced me to touch his penis, when I had no intention of doing so. I forgave him then because I knew he'd been dating girls who were like that, and he thought that was what I wanted. He's nothing like that now, of course. But it was really hard for him to hear what happened from MY point of view. At the same time though, it HAD to be said. He HAD to face it, to know what he'd done, so that he could grow into a better person. <P>As iron sharpens iron, man sharpens man.<P>It's ok to point something out where your spouse needs to grow. We've got to be careful to assure them we love them anyway. I really do see the good inside my husband, I see only the best parts, and I love him despite any shortcomings. We can talk about anything, both of us would rather die than hurt each other, and those are the reasons we are at all able to get past this. <P>But I still die a little inside ever time I remember that he's had anal sex with two other girls...it makes it undeniable for me to realize that he really enjoyed the heck out of himself with those other women. I can't even pretend that he didn't have fun with them. It makes me feel so un-special. And I really can't do that for him, it just doesn't seem to work, even though I only want to do it for him.<P>Oh gosh, I can write a lot. Sorry if I rambled, I do that when I talk about this subject.<P>OH-- One other thing. I find that I need to get a little info from him, process it for a day or two, then come back to it later. I've explained this to him, because I don't want him thinking I'm constantly dredging stuff up. It's just that I need time to process things, you know?<P>PG<P>

Abandonded Dad-<P>Is she "fulfilled"? If she's not coming, she's curious to see if someone else would "do it" for her. Ask her a whole bunch what she wants you to do, get some books for ideas, be her sex slave for a while, and don't take "no" for an answer. The real key is to ask her what SHE wants. Tell her you'll do anything she wants. Her going outside the marriage bed will destroy everything. That is what married people are supposed to have together.<P>Hope that helps.

Oh, and one other thing. <P>After he told me about the whole anal sex thing, (I was claiming it was impossible...he knew too well that it wasn't, and I asked if he'd done it before)...anyway...after he told me about it, I had this absurd fear of letting him see me naked. i have never felt like that with him. I am in shape, and it was just ridiculous that I would have this feeling of terror when he'd come home and I had to get out of the shower in front of him, etc. The feeling lasted about a day after he told me. I wound up having to tell him what was wrong, because he thought I was mad at him or something. I just had this weird, violated feeling that I couldn't get rid of. I can't explain it still. This probably could be it's own thread, but have any of you guys ever had a weird feeling like that, and you can't even pin down the rationality of it at all? I am usually a really even-keel sort of person, so this was just really weird for me. Maybe it was the whole "not being able to deny it to myself anymore" thing. I honestly don't know. It gets my mind going to, thinking "what else has he done?" Yes, we did talk about it, and he hasn't done all that much of the "weird stuff" .<P>Also, I just have to say one other thing that really, really hurt me. It's kind of graphic, but I can't share it anywhere else. When we first had almost-sex, he said "You're hard to make come". This hurt soooo bad, because it meant that #1, he's comparing me to other women, #2, I'm not his ideal, and #3, I'm not hard to make come, he was just inept, even after all his experience. He still can't do it right, either, so nobody can tell me experienced men are better. He's learned how other women work, NOT his wife. (That makes me bitter, too). Before I get a bunch of comments worrying if the sex is bad...NO, it's not bad, it's great, and it's a good thing I always come from regular intercourse. <P>I know I've posted a book, but I'm kind of proud of myself, I have a hard time articulating feelings into actual words. Thoughts I have no problem with, but feelings are like a big mess to me. Thanks for being patient. <P>PG