</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhoamInow:
<strong>I hope I don't offend at this next "want" of mine, but it is really important to me... I'm trying to write this in a way that doesn't make me sound conceited... It isn't that I couldn't have had a good time if I agreed to a date, but a long term relationship just couldn't work out. ...I just wanted to be stimulated by the conversation. Is that so wrong?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Krista, I think this goes back to what you said earlier:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So my biggest qualification is "Would this person in my life make it better? And could I make his life better?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's hard enough to make marriage work even with a high level of compatibility and stimulation. I don't think it's at all conceited to set those qualifications as a standard. In fact, in my opinion, the best kind of marriage is one in which both partners are encouraged and challenged to grow, to be the best that they can possibly be. Why settle for anything less?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am terrible at the turning the next date down. I've had to become much less polite and a little more assertive. I've found myself using the "It's not you, it's me" speech George uses on Seinfeld. Maybe guys could give me some suggestions on how it would be taken the easiest?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't make it easy to take if the guy is really interested. But if he's disappointed by your failure to reciprocate his interest, it's not your problem. That's not to say you shouldn't sympathize with his disappointment, but to take responsibility for it is a boundary violation: he needs to be granted the dignity of owning and handling his own feelings.

So, as usual, I think straightforward honesty is the best policy. Polite but firm and direct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Also, I read above that guys would love it if a girl asked them out. I CAN'T!! Just like FC has been taught to open a door for a lady, I've been taught to let him to that, but also to let him ask me out, AND to let him call. In theory, I'm not opposed to making the first move, but in practice I just can't go against my training. Should I fight my traditional gender role training, or just accept it??!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's good for us to stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zone sometimes, but it's also important to stay true to who we are. I think only you can decide where the boundary lies for you.

But there's plenty of gray area in there. You can start a conversation and drop hints, for instance...

heh heh heh... well you never know if you don't ask... GDP.

Now back to the thread...

sj

I absolutely think that you SHOULD be yourself. One of the things that I truly believe is that if you change who you are superficially, then you are inviting trouble from all sorts of places. If you are a strong willed woman... you will never be able to be happy with someone who is interested in a softer mannered more compliant woman. You might be able to 'play the game' for a while, but I tell you what, I hate being lied to... and if I were to take you out and after several dates, the 'real' you showed up, and the 'what I thought was the real' you disappeared, I would be furious. And that would be the end. You see, I value honesty. If for some reason something about me turned you off, then for sure I would rather know NOW rather than after having spent 5 evenings together. If you can't stand the fact that I want to pull out your chair for you... then by all means just tell me. But do it in a thoughtful and respectful manner.

I don't think that my dates OWE me the opportunity to be chivalrous. They don't OWE me the opportunity to show them what a gentleman I can be. I don't want to impress them with anything other than who I am. But I absolutely DON'T want to be with someone who feels SHE has to show me something. If she doesn't want my help, I would rather her look at me and say "FC, I appreciate the fact that you are a gentleman. However, I would rather just relax about it a bit." If she said that with a smile, I would really appreciate it, and would try my best to comply. I don't have to do the things I do, I just do them out of upbringing and habit. I am NOT angry when she opens the door and gets in. I am NOT angry if she puts her coat on without me. I do enjoy it if she pauses, and allows me the chance to 'do my thing', but I don't feel bad if she doesn't. But it is the forced, 'hurry' that bothers me. The uncomfortable "Can I help pay?"... I feel so much better with just a simple 'Thank you for dinner.'... So very much better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess what I'm saying is, if a guy likes me, and I inadvertently don't follow the script, how am I to know if he doesn't mention it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no script... that is the point I am trying to make. That is why I can tell in many cases if I want to see them again. If every woman I went out with followed the perfect script, then I would have only gone out with one. And she would have turned out to be incredibly insecure after a while... or could have been. Then I would have felt LIED to and would have resented her for changing who she was in order to 'trap' me. At least that is how I would feel or worry that is how I would feel.

Lord knows that all I want is honesty, openness, and interest. I want to feel that she wants to be with me like I want to be with her. I will never ever again do everything in a relationship in order to keep it going. I won't be responsible for keeping all the sex interesting. I won't be responsible for keeping everything with the kids going smoothly. I won't be responsible for MAKING HER HAPPY. I will do everything that I can in all the arenas. But I refuse to be in a relationship ever again in which everything relies upon me. I did that for 14 years and finally lost... I couldn't do it. I didn't realize I was loosing at the end... I just didn't realize much of anything. But now I do... and I will NEVER put myself or my children in that position again. So I tell you... don't look for a script. Don't look to make him think you are someone or something you are not.

I hate overstatements and embellishment. NOT just because that was status quo for my ex, but because just because 'technically' it was not completely a lie, doesn't mean it is the truth. I would rather a woman say, I am a secretary, than I am an assistant director of office management. I DON'T care... but I DO CARE about being mislead. THAT is what I care most about.

On another topic, I totally agree with GDP about not wanting to lead someone on when I know that I don't want anything further or that there is NO long term potential. THAT is why I choose not to 'try' a second date. Not to sound conceited, but every date that I have been on since I have been divorced could have led to much more given the women's choice. The first 3 dates on went on called my house and left a message telling me how much they enjoyed the date and they hoped we could go out again. NOW the KICKER is... they did this before I got home from dropping them off. One had to have sprinted to the phone and called, because I only live about 5 minutes away.

I told one later date this when she asked me why I hadn't gone out with anyone twice. She was very astute and said "You know, if you had been interested in any of those women, you would have felt flattered. But since you really didn't feel anything for them, they pushed you further away." That was true... had one of them been someone I would have wanted to date again, I would have probably called her immediately and talked with her some more that very evening. But since I wasn't, the very same action by three very well-meaning and nice enough women, caused a very different result in me. So I tell you, there is NO SCRIPT!!!

I try to be just EXACTLY who I am... sometimes I have even felt that I am a little 'overboard' on being me, just to ensure that they know that this piece of me is who I really am. I would prefer to 'run someone off' as me than 'get with someone' as someone I am not. I thought on one date that she really wasn't interested. She actually had driven herself and we walked outside and she left somewhat abruptly. Just a goodbye and a quick handshake... more from her part than mine. I thought to myself... that is good, one that I don't have to figure out how to tell I don't really want to see her. She is notoriously difficult to reach by phone, so I left her a nice, 'thank you' message the next day and that was it. Until about 2 weeks later, when I get a message from her asking how I am doing? What is going on? Do I want to go out? etc. Here, as GDP stated... I had misread the clues, even though they seemed rather obvious to me at the time. I am not sure what I missed or how... but her message clearly stated that she was expecting something that I didn't recognize.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

I also think that having 'schedules' on when you can 'do what' with a date is arbitrary at best, and may in the end make you do something that you weren't really ready for because IT IS date number 4 after all. The kissing date.

Now I might be setting myself up for some flaming here... but I would not hesitate to kiss a woman on the first date. And I don't mean at the door. But if I was really liking the woman I was with and I could tell she was liking me. If she had already touched me a couple times, and been receptive to me touching her back. I would definitely be tempted to reach over and gently brush a lock of hair from her eyes. Allowing my hand to hesitate a moment too long against her cheek. Watch her eyes, and lean in and kiss her. I would have my hyper-radar on that is for sure, but I know that several of the women would have been receptive to it had I wanted the same thing. At least that is what I THINK I would do... heh heh heh... the gentleman in me would probably stop me. But hey... sometimes I can be a bit impulsive... and sometimes there is a time for that. I would never do it to further my cause for sex. Sex scares me enough as it is. I am so afraid of being tempted... I am so afraid of failing to that temptation. By kissing her, am I setting up our relationship for failure? I don't know... I guess it would be more dependant on what we did afterwards.

If not the first date... when? The third... the fourth... tenth... wedding night...? I don't know. I know I don't want to deal with sex at this point. But I am equally sure that I crave intimacy... THAT is why I cannot be with someone that I am not really interested in. I fear that I might develop basal urges without a base of interest. I don't want that... and I don't want her to be hurt by me or vice versa.

No kissing till date #4??? Are you serious?

A kiss on the first date is a maybe, depending on how the date goes, however, I wouldn't attempt if the girl's body language wasn't receptive...if no kiss on second date, there will not be a third.

JMHO...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly Confused:
<strong>
Now I might be setting myself up for some flaming here... but I would not hesitate to kiss a woman on the first date. And I don't mean at the door. But if I was really liking the woman I was with and I could tell she was liking me. If she had already touched me a couple times, and been receptive to me touching her back. I would definitely be tempted to reach over and gently brush a lock of hair from her eyes. Allowing my hand to hesitate a moment too long against her cheek. Watch her eyes, and lean in and kiss her. I would have my hyper-radar on that is for sure, but I know that several of the women would have been receptive to it had I wanted the same thing. At least that is what I THINK I would do... heh heh heh... the gentleman in me would probably stop me. But hey... sometimes I can be a bit impulsive... and sometimes there is a time for that. I would never do it to further my cause for sex. Sex scares me enough as it is. I am so afraid of being tempted... I am so afraid of failing to that temptation. By kissing her, am I setting up our relationship for failure? I don't know... I guess it would be more dependant on what we did afterwards.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FC --- this is what I was trying to figure out...

If you brush her hair back, and pause, and she allows you to kiss her on the first date - do you suddenly determine that she is a 'loose' woman? Or do you just accept her allowing the kiss, or maybe even encouraging it, to be her saying that she really likes you, and it was not beyond her boundaries?

Just because I kiss a guy doesn't mean I'm going to hop into bed with him... I feel that loving someone is something that at best includes intimate moments, and a kiss is a way of sharing intimacy without sex. I'm not talking about a tonsilectomy either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> --- just a tender kiss.

And ---

I'm a touchy feely kind of person... If I really am enjoying talking to a guy I touch his arm, or lay my hand on his arm/shoulder as we are talking, and if we are walking somewhere I appreciate him taking my arm or holding my hand. Even on a first date, if it is rough land we are walking over, I might reach out for his hand - if he doesn't offer it. It doesn't necessarily mean anything - other than I'm comfortable 'touching'.

I think what I was saying so badly earlier in the post is that I really appreciate it when a guy opens my door for me. I like being treated as a lady, and I don't ever mean to be 'rushing him' by opening the door myself... It just goes with the territory - stop the car, open the door... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That is what I was saying -- I just feel comfortable enough within myself to touch a guys arm without expectation or to open the door, it isn't that I'm 'proving' anything - just being myself.

Thank you for clearing up the 'script' idea - I really was unsure of that --- because I feel like I've missed something - but I don't want to play act at anytime --- I just want to be me.

Looking into a man's eyes is so 'intimate' it's like a meeting of hearts.

I know that meeting one special person is the ultimate goal of dating - I just am looking for the methods, and ideas to meet one special person.

Some of my dates have been from people I meet online, more of them are local/within my 'friend' circle, or some even from work. I dated a guy who works for me once, in the past few months, that was probably the worst date - because he seemed to think I 'owed him something' afterward... Like he'd done me a favor by taking me out. I've decided not to date people who work for/with me - because it seems to just not work.

The info from the Q/A section is really good - I found that a while back and I really appreciated that information.

Jan

Eeeeek - a schedule? I'm notorious for not reading directions, so here is another one I must've missed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am so much a fan of the unplanned date. A kiss during it is completely dependent on how it is going, not upon some random rule!! I had a date about a month ago that I might as well have kissed the waiter - it would've been COMPLETELY out of context (with my date and the waiter!) since there was no chemistry whatsoever, and it was immediately apparent. But it seems silly to not if things are going fantastically and both are obviously feeling that way. I know that after a traumatic divorce, it is easy to want to want to try to figure out all the rules - to try to right all the wrongs from our pasts, maybe.... I'm all for self reflection and improvement, but at some point wwe just have to realize we can't plan for and predict everything, and we just have to see what God has in store for us.
Krista

For those looking at dating...check out this book

http://www.iapologize4.com/Article-Dating_2Dates%20or%20Less.htm

In Two Dates or Less...
How to Know if someone is worth pursuing!

Are you ready to meet the person of your dreams? Are you ready to become maximally attractive to the very kind of person who attracts you the most?

Let's get right to the point. You may want to read this book because you're sick and tired of dating people for too long with nothing coming of it. Perhaps you keep discovering that the people you date are just not right for you-- but you waste too much time figuring it out. The fact is that you could have known this before the end of two dates. The secret is to learn how to identify dead-end relationships quickly so you don't have to invest more time, energy, and caring that are necessary-- and so you can move on to more promising possibilities.

FC, I find absolutly fascinating that there are still men like you in your age category. I am 31 and I feel utterly decieved and disapointed by men my age, who expect to split the check or don't mind the woman paying for dinner when they are out. It sort of turned me off dating, the whole thing seems so uncomfortable. Do I offer to pay or do I just wait for them to offer, I don't know how to react. I am also old fashioned, I like to be courted, I like to be pursued and not have to pursue the man. For example I don't approach a man first and I usually don't call unless a man will express genuine interest in me and call first. I find that older men still have it in them, while the men who are my age will tend to want a woman to fend for herself. I went out for dinner with someone 6 months ago, who only wanted to order an appetizer for himself, which made me feel very uncomfortable, did that mean I also had to order an appetizer? He proceeded to talk about his ex and apparently the problem was is that she wasn't independant enough for him. He wanted her to have her own interests, while he went hunting. He knew that I am a single Mom, who works full time, yet who also takes care of her yard, house and cooks every day. After learning all that about me, he asked me why I couldn't shovel the snow on the driveway and wanted my husband to help me with it ( when we were still married) Dating has become a fuzzy, uncharted territory since I've been single.

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Like Water For Chocolate ]</small>

When I dated before, I always made sure I had enough money on me to pay for things if "I" needed to...because even years ago...it wasn't always a given that a man "would" pay...

So is what you do...make sure you have enough cash on you to pay for your own meal and movie if you need to..and if he happened to pick you up..
make sure you have enough to pay for a cab or make a phone call to have someone else come pick you up so you can leave right afterwards if that happens..

Now what a minute ladies. You mean there is still room in the world for a guy that believes in putting the lady first? That would never expect the lady to pick up the check or tip? That opens doors for the lady and helps her with her coat? That thinks sometimes a single flower is just right? That usually only works 8-6 pm, M-F? That sometimes, just wants to spend time alone walking, sitting, eating, talking, or listening to what interests a lady? That knows how to do laundry, yardwork, dishes, cooking and how to sort summer/winter clothes for his kids? Maybe I am too anxious about dating in the future! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I wonder if driving a minivan to haul his kids and their friends around would be a turnoff? LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

HoFS

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

Now I know why I have been glad to be married. All of these issues depend on the individuals and figuring each other out quickly I think is the key to good dating early on.

IMHO Women now days vary from splitting to wanting the man to pay for things. There are a lot of strong, successful and independent women out there that might be offended if the man automatically paid for the meal.

As there are also women who want their "independence" while having the benefits of a "relationship." I have looked at singles adds (being separated) and found it quite intimidating looking at the requirements. Maybe their shooting for the stars and just hoping to land on the moon?

HofF's said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now what a minute ladies. You mean there is still room in the world for a guy that believes in putting the lady first? That would never expect the lady to pick up the check or tip? That opens doors for the lady and helps her with her coat? That thinks sometimes a single flower is just right? That usually only works 8-6 pm, M-F? That sometimes, just wants to spend time alone walking, sitting, eating, talking, or listening to what interests a lady? That knows how to do laundry, yardwork, dishes, cooking and how to sort summer/winter clothes for his kids? Maybe I am too anxious about dating in the future! I wonder if driving a minivan to haul his kids and their friends around would be a turnoff? LOL! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah (speaking as if this man is a prospective part of my future). A single rose when you come to my door will get you further than a whole room full of flowers to impress someone other than me. Hard working is a definite plus - I admire your accomplishments! And if you take an evening to take care of the kids so I can go shopping alone, I guarantee you - the rewards will make it worth your time and effort! I want to be treated like a lady - and I appreciate those men who do... If they happen to recognize that I'm capable of doing it for myself - but APPRECIATE them doing it for me - EVEN better.

I shouldn't have to prove anything to my guy - he should already appreciate my skills and abilities. And the same should be true of the man in my life. I do believe that you have to be willing to share and tell about yourself in the dating process however. And hopefully - two people will find a way to learn more and more about each other as time goes by.

Since I'm 43 and starting this - I did have a REAL life before and baggage comes with the territory - not that it is going to be part and parcel of the future - but I am today - what I am because of what life presented to me yesterday and the choices I've made. Same with the men in my life - I don't expect them to just 'appear' at the age of 41 with no past.

Jan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Eduard:
<strong>Now I know why I have been glad to be married. All of these issues depend on the individuals and figuring each other out quickly I think is the key to good dating early on.

IMHO Women now days vary from splitting to wanting the man to pay for things. There are a lot of strong, successful and independent women out there that might be offended if the man automatically paid for the meal.

As there are also women who want their "independence" while having the benefits of a "relationship." I have looked at singles adds (being separated) and found it quite intimidating looking at the requirements. Maybe their shooting for the stars and just hoping to land on the moon?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two and a half years ago --- I was saying the same thing. I'm glad I'm married and not expected to be looking for someone new. Guess what. I'm looking! I don't want to be single the rest of my life - not because I can't be or because I'm not comfortable with being single... Because quite simply I believe life is meant to be shared - and I'm conceited enough to think I have something to offer the right man.

Yes - I'm shooting for the stars and hoping to land on the moon - with a man who at least has some miniscule understanding of the value I place on life and the opportunity to share it with a very special person.

I'm praying that God gives me a chance to be the person I believe I'm meant to be - with a man who can appreciate that. And That somehow God has a man who I can appreciate for who he is also.

Eduard --- I pray your marriage works, and you can again be happy in your life. That's one of those important things that make life worthwhile!

Blessings,

Jan

Jan, First of all... I think that we have had a slight miscommunication on the opening the door thing. While I would gladly come around and open the door to let you out. There has only been one woman in my life that allowed that to happen. When I say opening the door, I mean getting back in the car. I mean any door we go through. I DON'T mean getting out of the car. Rarely, as I have said, has a woman waited. Even the most 'prim and proper' woman I have dated... and there have been a few.

So I would recommend that by all means, get out of the car. He should meet you at the back or front, depending upon direction. You should not take off and start walking without him, and neither should he. I always offer my hand forward, showing that I am there, and I ALWAYS take the outside... regardless, you should always take the inside. Whether walking on the sidewalk or in the parking lot. A gentleman takes the 'danger', the splashes, and the brunt of whatever could happen. If you are making it through a crowd, I always offer my hand... no matter how early in the date and take the lead. I will put my hand behind me with her's in it, allowing me to take the brunt of moving people out of the way, while allowing her as much ease as possible. At a movie... you should always sit inside the man. When it is time to leave, he should step out into 'traffic' blocking the flow while you go in front of him, then he should follow.

At a restaurant, You should stand side by side awaiting the hostess. When she comes to take you to the table, a gentleman will lightly touch the small of your back and offer a hand outward, and walk either with you or closely behind if there is not room. You should ALWAYS take the seat facing the room. He should have his back to the room. He should have eyes only for you, and prove that he has no need to see who is coming in or who is going by. (This also means that you must NOT be gazing at every passerby, because they will be in YOUR sight.) Usually, rather than sit across a table, unless it is only for two, I always sit at 90 degrees. This way is VERY useful to help figure out what she is thinking.

Sitting at 90 degrees allows you to NOT face him if you are not feeling like it. It also gives you a HUGE advantage if you are wanting to show interest, because all you have to do is to turn towards him with you upper body. If you are across from him there really is nothing you can do other than sit in his lap or play footsy. Which can also happen at 90 degrees if you are so inclined... heh heh heh.

Now... ordering... I always try to order an appetizer... because I know that even if most women would like something, they will not say they do. So I say 'Lets order an appetizer... what looks good to you?' There, now she knows I am ordering something, and she now can tell me she doesn't like calamari... or loves Brie... etc. Guys... DON'T ask her if she would like an appetizer, she will probably say no. Let her know that you are ordering one, and hope that she will be kind enough to help you pick out a good one. I also always hope she will order a salad. I love salads, but I will not order one unless she does. So I recommend ordering either the house salad or ceasar... whatever you like... it is simple... relatively inexpensive... and gives you a little lee way in showing some independence. I hate it when she won't order a salad... I won't hold it against her, however, I will sit there wishing I had some greens to munch on.

Dinner... order what you want... PLEASE!!! What ever makes you happy... or sounds good. Now some guys will dislike you ordering the most expensive thing... and I have yet to have anyone I was with order it. But I know I will be smiling if one ever does. Not because she did, but because she felt like she could with me. Enough said... just don't order the diet plate, and don't 'low ball' the guy and force him to change his order. If you are eating spaghetti and he is eating 'Surf n'Turf' he might feel awkward.

Now for dessert... guys... this is YOUR baby... I rarely have a woman who will order dessert on her own. So long before it is time... I will ask for the dessert menu... and tell my date I am really wanting something sweet. LEAVE it at that and see what she says. If she smiles and kids with you... you are sharing a dessert. If she says "Yea... I love their cheesecake" you are each having your own. If she says something like... "Oh, I am stuffed" or "You go ahead"... she wants to get out of the restaurant. So men, you NEED to order a dessert, gooey, chocolatety kind of dessert... order it for "you" thining that perhaps she might really be wanting some as well, or just wanting to share something with you. But would never have dared to order herself.

Now ladies... DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT CALORIES OR FAT CONTENT OR FIBER OR THE GYM OR ANY OTHER ACTIVITY THAT WILL BURN THE CALORIES YOU ARE ABOUT TO, ARE, OR HAVE CONSUMED... Well, if you are out with a guy and really know him... there are suggestions that you can make to burn calories later... heh heh heh... JUST KIDDING!!!

Ladies... do not turn down sharing a dessert. EVEN if you don't want it. Take a couple bites... hopefully if you weren't helping him decide on dessert, he will have asked for your help. He (guys) will say... "I am in the mood for something rich and gooey, but something light and fruity sounds good as well. What do you think?" OK ladies... the door is open... you have to come up with your REAL choice. Don't try to figure out what he is wanting... because what he is wanting is for you to let him know what will make you happy.

Allow him to pay the check... if he hesitates... Well... I don't know. I have never hesitated so I really can't help you in this regard. But I sure wouldn't go out with him again. UNLESS, he seemed very conscious of NOT trying to be overbearing and was not wanting to be to presumptive in paying the whole thing. I wouldn't know. I don't ask someone out without full desire to allow them to enjoy themselves and see if I enjoy them as well.

OK sj... there is your "THERE IS NO SCRIPT!!!" Script. heh heh heh... these are the things that I think go into making a very gentlemanly and ladylike date. These are the things that help me to be me and hope that I can find out a little about her in the process. Nothing is a deal breaker!!! Nothing is hard and fast. I find a sweet but a little aggressive woman more enticing that a woman who won't let me know what she wants. I, personally, do not want demure. I want exciting. I want strong. But I want someone who can allow me to be those things as well.

And a single sunflower is my choice... perhaps a bunch of Rudbeckia. heh heh heh...

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

FC ----

I gotta tell you -- if you invited me out --- you would probably have a blast.

I order what I want usually, whether it's the most expensive or the cheapest thing on the menu. I love salad, and have been known to suggest the appetizer - just because it gives me a chance to chatter with the guy about WHAT to order.

I have a favorite place in town - and for some reason I almost always suggest it. It's a 50's style diner/drive in. And my favorite thing on the menu right now is also on the dollar menu --- which means that I eat for $1 ... Their ice cream is the best!!! I love it... (when I don't have a broken tooth) so desert is NOT a problem there.

You're right - we did have a misunderstanding - mostly because I noticed my last date was a bit 'purturbed' (for lack of a better word) because I opened the door and got out of the car. Like he was unsure how to proceed. I'm a water fanatic, so I drink water instead of most other beverages... Which I noticed also surprised him. Even when we went dancing - after my 'customary' drink (which is non-alcoholic) I went back to water.

I was so at ease on my last date - I can't even tell you how comfortable I was with my date. It was just one of those situations, that we both had a great time. Other than - so many things I did seemed to feel WRONG afterward. Like I was trying to figure out what I did that wasn't to his liking... There was a defined point in the date when the comfort was gone - but I can't find it.

MAybe it was the minivan thing --- but that doesn't bother me a bit... Not sure... I may never know - other than we are still 'friends' and he's been sending me emails...so maybe one day I will get a chance to ask him - when it doesn't feel like I just infiltrated his life...

I make quite a bit more than most of the men I've dated - and if we end up taking my kids, I feel guilty letting them pick up the tab for the whole meal... So --- I offer, but it's never been an issue for me. If the kids aren't there - I NEVER offer.

I would appreciate suggestions on that... If the kids are there - do I offer to pick up the tab for them - or not...?

Jan

Posted by Formerly Confused:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now for dessert... If she says something like... "Oh, I am stuffed" or "You go ahead"... she wants to get out of the restaurant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or maybe she really is stuffed since she already ate an appetizer, salad and 'Surf n'Turf'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

sj-
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I make quite a bit more than most of the men I've dated - and if we end up taking my kids, I feel guilty letting them pick up the tab for the whole meal... So --- I offer, but it's never been an issue for me. If the kids aren't there - I NEVER offer.

I would appreciate suggestions on that... If the kids are there - do I offer to pick up the tab for them - or not...?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on my assumption that you wouldn't take your kids along on a first date (tell me if I'm wrong because then I'll have a theory about why you aren't getting a second date <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), and the phrasing you used (if we 'end up' taking my kids) I would suggest if your date invited the children, he pays, and if you invited the children, you pay (or offer to pay).

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: AFS ]</small>

No --- I would not normally take my kids... However, if I'm out of town with my kids (which I don't leave them if I go out of town) they are there and usually no place to stay if they don't go with me, and most of the men I've gone out with have realized that they are with me all the time and invite them to come along for miniature golf, or swimming at the lake, or whatever. The kids are well behaved and fun to take along --- so it's usually not a bad thing... or at least I haven't minded them being there.

Maybe that's why they don't invite me back - they realize how much it costs to take five people out.

But it's not JUST WHEN THE KIDS GO --- they didn't go the last time.

Jan

BTW ---

I just realized - this sounds like EVERY DATE ends after the FIRST date... which is not really the case.

I often go out a second or third time, but I get the 'let's be friends' convo after the first date - and we do become friends, and the relationship dwindles to he sends me emails (forwards - I'm forever on his forward list) and our kids end up being friends... I've even had guys contact me to see if my daughters could babysit for them - while they go on a 'date' - and it isn't with me. AHEM.

I'm not really complaining about the new friendships either ---- I just want a ROMANCE --- one that sweeps me off my feet.

I'm getting the 'friends' thing --- just not the way I want it.

Jan

Do these dates occur spontaneously (while you happen to be out of town with your kids), or are you traveling a bit for the planned date?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've even had guys contact me to see if my daughters could babysit for them - while they go on a 'date' - and it isn't with me. AHEM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, what nerve!