Howdy, guys and gals,

I'm going to just jump in with a bit of a pet peeve related to this whole friendship/dating topic. I think I somewhat relate with terri, in that I am no longer 25 and I am no longer a size 8 (heck, I never was! haha). Also, like terri, I've had guy friends with whom I was friends for years who never once thought to think of me as a romantic interest and then found "the love of their life."

Here's where the pet peeve comes in.

I was their friend for YEARS. I was the one who stayed up at night listening to them cry...who wrote pages upon pages of email and snail mail letters...who helped them get through and get over their divorce...who understood the particular kind of pain of being abandoned and betrayed by their spouse, the one person whom they thought they could trust...who send kleenex and soup and hugs. Then one day, after years of being supportive, along comes a younger, cuter woman who's wagging her skirt, and I'm forgotten. Years of support and encouragement and true friendship are meaningless. As a true friend, yes--I'm happy they found someone to whom they are attracted, but no--I'm NOT happy that I am basically forgotten. Crumbs of time when he's not "with her" do not count as acknowledging or maintaining our friendship. And the few little crumbs I do get are all spent telling me about HER and how pretty SHE is and this cute thing they did together and that smart thing she did.

Yep, it's a pet peeve in a MAJOR way. When you men find your Cinderella, please DO NOT forget the true friends who stood by you while you were a mess...and do not just offer your friends crumbs of your time!! You would not be who you are or where you are if you had not had that true blue person standing by you while your spouse walked away from you, so don't just drop them in favor of your new honey.

And by the way, I don't care if your new honey IS young and cute, and I'm old and well...old (heehee)--it's disrespectful to just dump a friend like that.

CJ

Formerly,

"But it doesn't sound like you are letting your friend have his own ideas about what he wants. It is almost like you are finding reasons that he shouldn't feel the way he does. Your weight, his age, children, "MEN in general", etc"

Maybe I touched a nerve ... I know that you touched a nerve with me.

I don't quite see how your experience with one woman (your ex) can make you an expert on age differences. I work with a woman who has had an extremely successful long term relationship with a man who is nearly 20 years her junior. I've probably had the most successful relationships of all kinds with people who are younger than I am - from romantic liaisons to close friendships. I get along better with men that are younger than I am (perhaps because most of the men I know in my age group have family committments, and wives who don't want them hanging out with a single woman). My friend can have whatever reasons he wishes for not wanting to be more than friends, but that does not mean I cannot be disappointed.

Not everyone at the age of 43 is the same. I am in a very different place than most other women I know in my age group. I have no responsiblity for anyone or anything but myself and my cats. I have interests that most people in my age group shake their heads about (online role-playing and adventure games, x-box games, karaoke, I want to get a motorcycle, etc.). I don't look 43, I don't feel 43 and I don't act 43. My friend thought I was only a couple of years older until I mentioned how old I was.

That was not, however, the primary focus of my posts. I was agreeing with some of the other women on the thread that too many men, in general, are not willing to try to get to know a person before deciding that she is not for them, while we women, in general, tend to take a little more time to decide that. As sj pointed out early on, many times we are not at our most natural when we are out on a first date ... so we are not getting a good picture of who the other person really is. And Dr. Harley points out that it really isn't until marriage that the "real" person comes out... and all bets are off.

Personally, I think my friend is missing out on the happiest relationship he'd ever know, but that's his loss.

FaithfulWife - I know EXACTLY what you are saying. You sound just like me. The friend of whom I speak was married and is recently divorced. He came to me to talk when he found out his wife was cheating on him and I can't tell you how many hours we spent on the phone and in person together over the next two years... How many times we cried together ... I was and still am ALWAYS there for him. He can't, however, exactly "forget" me - I work with him - in the same office. Which makes the entire situation difficult for me - work is like heaven and hell all wrapped into one package. I'm adjusting to the changes he's made in our friendship now that he's dating someone

Getting back to the real topic of my part in this thread: It's very common for women to feel that men have very "arbitrary" guidelines for what is acceptable in a woman ... But then, I guess we all have arbitrary guidelines that we use when we meet people. Most men I know look for younger women with fashion model figures and long hair. Mine might seem as silly to others as others are to me. For example, while I'm not an intellectual elitist, I need a man that is close to me in intelligence - and can spell. That's very important to me, I know that I wouldn't remain interested in a man for long if I couldn't carry on a conversation with him without lowering my vocabulary and grammar level. And teeth. Decent teeth are important... And a pulse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Terri,

First of all, I tried in every sort of way possible to say that this is MY FEELING about the situation. NOT that I am an expert. The only nerve that has been hit is when I try to say things as 'feeling and opinion' as possible, and people STILL construe it as that I am acting the expert. My ex said it, you say it... HOW IN THE WORLD can someone disagree and it just be disagreement... not PUT DOWN or EXPERT??? What sort of words do I need to write so that I can say what I feel, and others not think I am saying 'I KNOW IT ALL'???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least that is my opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are just my thoughts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Each person is different. I understand that. But certain situations are the same. My opinion is </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not trying to harp on you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not trying to say you are wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am just giving you my feelings </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I know it doesn't mean doom </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just my feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please help me to understand how I can say something that I happen to feel WITHOUT being misconstrued as acting the EXPERT!!! This has always frustrated me. People with whom I disagree attacking personally rather than just giving a difference in opinion. I REALLY didn't mean anything as an attack... and perhaps you all will help me to understand how in the world I can state an opinion and 'NOT TOUCH NERVES to the point of retaliation'.

YES... you touched a nerve... but not with your original post. That was just my experience and my feelings. NOT because I was burned, but because I gained knowledge that I will use in the future. I would be a fool not to. Is it absolute? Absolutely NOT !!! If the right woman for me came along and she was older, I wouldn't let it stop me... but I am not LOOKING in that direction simply because I know that my CHANCES of finding someone with whom we can be happy together is LESS NOT non-existent. IF she comes into my life as GDPs friend has, then by all means...

Formerly,

You're right, you did pepper your response with indicators that you were expressing your opinion. And I wasn't right to jump on you quite the way I did.

Since you asked how what you said could be so misconstrued ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But what I am trying to say is... AGE DOES MATTER. I know we all think it doesn't, and truthfully, 5 years one way or the other is minimal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's pretty black and white. No matter that you've indicated you are stating an opinion, this wording comes across as statement of fact. I think, based on the fact that in your profession you likely cannot afford to be hesitant or indefinite lest patients will not have confidence (i.e., "I think you might have ...") your normal communication style may be too absolute. From my point of view, even though you've said "this is just my opinion" the way you've worded it says "these are the facts, jack." Am I making any sense?

I used to communicate that way and my family did not even want to talk to me because it comes across as overbearing instead of just self-confident. I had to find a way to soften my approach, sound less arrogant. I still have issues with this from time to time.

Something I noticed is that I used a quote from your post to me - and that was one of the "nerve striking" ones - but I never really addressed it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But it doesn't sound like you are letting your friend have his own ideas about what he wants. It is almost like you are finding reasons that he shouldn't feel the way he does. Your weight, his age, children, "MEN in general", etc</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I'm asking for assistance in understanding ... how did you come to this particular observation? I re-read my previous posts and didn't think that it sounded this way at all. Of course, I am reading them from my point of view. My friend is entitled to his own ideas about what he wants, but what he wants I see reflected in a very large percentage of the male population regardless of the age of the male. At this point, I have to say I'm talking about online dating services, because, in my experience, not many men will tell you this kind of thing to your face, nor do they have to, because if you meet them in person, they will not ask you out if you don't meet their "physical standard." I've seen this in profiles of men aged anywhere from 25 to 50... perhaps more so in the higher age categories.

It is disappointing to me that I am discounted from the pool of "possible mates" because of what, to most women, seems an arbitrary and somewhat shallow criteria, yet I'm ok as a fill-in when nobody that meets the criteria is around (in the general companionship category - my friend never took advantage of my willingness to meet any "other" needs). And, let's face it, American pop culture, in particular, fosters this: look at the sitcoms where the wife is thin and attractive and the husband is fat and balding. Not realistic portrayals of life in America from what I've seen of it.

What really touched the nerve for me was that quote... because I let him think and feel whatever he wants to think and feel - I was just using my situation as an example of why that kind of attitude bothers many single, older not beauty queen fashion model type women. It doesn't help that statistics show that the "our" population is significantly higher than males in the same age group, and that the likelihood of us dying single is quite high... dam* depressing stats, if you dwell on them.

There is one more thing I'd like to point out if I may. From the original post: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that I wouldn't even consider someone 12 years older, because of what I have learned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And from most recent post: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the right woman for me came along and she was older, I wouldn't let it stop me</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I won't make any other comments, but if you'd care to address this one...

Thanks for the oppportunity to discuss this.

TERRI!

Good to see you back here. I am just divorced myself and havent even begun to think of dating so I just read this thread.

You sound good. I second the vote for an update.

Terri,

It is nice to see we can communicate on this situation. Because I very much need and enjoy discussing things with someone of a different viewpoint.

First of all, I will discuss your last point as far as the quotes on

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is one more thing I'd like to point out if I may. From the original post:
quote:
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I know that I wouldn't even consider someone 12 years older, because of what I have learned.
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And from most recent post:
quote:
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If the right woman for me came along and she was older, I wouldn't let it stop me
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I won't make any other comments, but if you'd care to address this one...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see how this does sound contradictory. I suspect that superficially, it does sound like I am playing both sides of the equation. I stand by the feeling that for ME at MY age, 12 years is too much difference, EITHER WAY. 47 or 23... FOR ME. I think that even with a very nice and dear woman, full of vigor, interesting, self confident, beautiful, everything that I want in a woman in my life, 12 years would stop me. In my opinion, knowing what I have learned for ME, I think that the differences in age at this juncture in my life could very well create issues that could possibly be overcome, but my feeling is WHY???

Why should I, at my age, look for something with someone that already would begin with possible difficulties. I want more children. My ex was through. Why should I NOT look for someone that has the best chance of allowing us to have those children? I know... modern science, etc... believe me I know... I also know the difficulties that it all CAN create. NOW even throw out need for science... My wife would at a minimum, being 12 years older than I am, be having our child at the age of 48 or 49... I will be 35 in a couple weeks. We would have to date, fall in love, plan, etc... Now I would wonder about the woman who would want to BEGIN her family at almost 50. I would wonder how realistic she was in her thinking, or understanding about how much effort was taken with children.

Should someone come along that is older than I am, and I find that I am drawn to her, then I would take age into consideration and think 'very consciously' as GDP noted, the good and the ramifications of such a relationship. I tell you however for me, and perhaps your friend, as the age difference increases, the likihood of me pursuing the person would diminish. That is just a fact of MY life... and perhaps his. Not a fact of life as I might have been taken for saying before.

Now, I am free to look and choose/be chosen by anyone I want/or be wanted by. I have been out with several women that I have found that YES, I could probably continue dating them... I could even probably make a marriage work and quite possibly have a wonderful marriage. But, first of all, I am in no rush. One is insecure... but this could probably change. One cusses too much for me. One is spiritual, but not religious... maybe change. One is this... one is that... but why should I not find someone who likes me for who I am and I like her for EVERYTHING she is. Be that religious background, manners, confidence, OR PHYSICAL attraction.

I absolutely KNOW that there are wonderful women out there who are a bit heavy, or don't have the height, legs, "boobs", etc... that would be wonderful mates, lovers, companions, friends, etc. What I have seen is that, if you don't want to be with one of these women, they tend to always break it down into the 'fact' that 'MEN' don't want to be with them because of their physical attractiveness. Thus we are all shallow and therefore 'bad'. The ones I have met completely overlook the issue of manners, compassion, confidence, etc. and say, 'It is because of my thighs.' or 'I have a child, so he doesn't want to be with me.' Often... this is the easy and 'politically correct/incorrect' reason, at least that is my opinion.

I know that you clarified your position </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I don't think that the goal of having children driving your choice of who you would date is such a bad thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But just reading the other posts, it doesn't 'FEEL' like you truly believe it, yourself. I will expand on this later.

Now for why I stated my sense of 'hearing' this </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But it doesn't sound like you are letting your friend have his own ideas about what he wants. It is almost like you are finding reasons that he shouldn't feel the way he does. Your weight, his age, children, "MEN in general", etc </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps it is just reading it from a different viewpoint. Perhaps it is feeling that I can't have my opinion about something because I am the 'young, white, male with a good job' syndrome. It almost feels like there will not be a feeling that I can ever have that is just because of how I feel, NOT IN YOUR POSTS, just in life in general. I truly do somewhat feel reverse discrimination. If I don't like someone, it is because I am white... or rich... or male... it is rarely because the person is just a jerk. So, understand that perhaps this is a bit defensively written.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he knows how I feel. We've only talked about it once or twice since I let him know and he was very clear that while he was flattered, he wasn't interested in me in the same way. He cares a great deal about me and doesn't ever want to hurt me, but ... It's an awkward topic to discuss at this point - and it would really be beating a dead horse anyhow. Also, he is currently dating someone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like he has explained and given you his reasoning, but that you don't want to accept it. JUST MY OPINION and what your words say to me, perhaps not how you meant to write them. But if I said, I like you, just not like that. Sometimes, it is just that. There are tons of women that I 'like' that I don't 'LIKE'. I never had a problem while I was married, because I was off limits. Now I am 'on the market', and find that I can't talk to some women, without more overt interest being shown. And now if I don't respond in kind, I can cause harm or resentment. And it makes talking to people whom I have known for years dicey in alot of instances.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yet there is some reason that I've been discounted as a possible relationship partner. I'm not sure exactly what the reason is, and to be honest, I'm not sure I want to know </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did he say when he said that he didn't want to be with you 'like that'? He explained children... etc. But this isn't enough? Maybe youdidn't talk about it. I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, my friend and I have some relatively major differences in opinions and beliefs that do make for some spirited discussions. And we have both gotten quite angry at one another on a few occasions - and took the opportunities to practice our newly learned better communication skills. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you ever think that perhaps, things that you see as 'learning experiences' he might see as issues? I recently dated a woman... the only one I have dated more than once. We went out about 4 times. We spoke about what we thought about 'us' I told her I wasn't sure where I was, much less what I was wanting from us. She said she understood. We had a great evening. I said, during a later discussion, 'I hope that whatever happens, we find just the person who we would be best with.' or something along those lines. She immediately got angry, and walked out. She called about a week later and apologized and said that she must have not understood, or mistaken where I was, or what I meant, or half a dozen other must haves. But what had happened for me was a reenactment of my marriage. While I hold no ill will against her, I will not choose to 'date' her again, because there is no way I want to deal with those type of things any longer. Especially starting on the 4th date. Will I be her friend? Sure, I hold no ill will against her, however, I have seen a part of her that I have no interest in allowing my heart to be hurt by. I have seen the same off the cuff anger and misunderstanding that I saw in my ex for 14 years. I rarely if EVER meant what she thought I meant. But it made no difference, because she had already formed the opinion that I am bad and horrible or what not, and I have no interest in trying to smooth over every other sentence I speak for the rest of my life. Saying "I don't understand... or Did you mean X?" Never occurred, it was just this is what you said... this is what you meant... regardless of whether it was true or not. I have no desire nor ability to work with that. I did my best for 14 years and failed. I do not possess the ability to help some people to see in that manner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't tell you how many online dating profiles I've read that specify "heavy women need not respond" or even things as rude as "no [censored] please". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is great... Not in the way that it sounds. It is just that these idiots are taking themselves out of the running of anyone with half a brain. You don't have to wait to find out they are idiots. I wish that more women would put on their profiles, "only men with money need apply." That way, I could run for the hills without wasting my time 'getting to know them' first. Even though I fit 'their bill' by just saying this statement, they don't even come close to fitting mine. Red flags are golden. But for me to say that 'women just want money' is like you saying 'men are just looking for physical attractiveness'. Some are... but the good ones are NOT. But since we all rely on testosterone, we are conveniently grouped together in a lump and labled.

And from your more recent post
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I think my friend is missing out on the happiest relationship he'd ever know, but that's his loss. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me... this is as much of a sour grapes statement as I can imagine. It says to me... if he doesn't know how great I am... then it is just his loss. To me... I have always really disliked this sort ofthing. It tends to negate his/my feelings and reasons as petty compared to what 'you know'. I heard this so much during my marriage, and it always really made me feel demeaned, because I couldn't like/dislike something because of my choice, it was because of my faulty reasoning. So, perhaps I 'hear' more than is really there. But this is still where I am coming from and my reasoning behind it.

I would love to answer or expand on any issues that you or anyone might have with what I have said. I would LOVE to hear opposing or different views, because I definitely DON'T think that my way is the only way. I crave learning. I crave to see where my thinking might be faulty or less clear than it could be and that I might change. I never had this as a husband. I was just always WRONG and there was never any help in learning just how I was wrong. She would just say, "You are right, you are always right." And it would be left at that. She would not help me to understand what she was trying to say. I don't know whether it was because she was truly exasperated or she just had nothing behind her side. I really think, however, that it was the later, because she would choose to NEVER help me see, she would just stop when I would explain why I thought the way I did and that would be the end.

Terri, I truly think this, but I would WELCOME understanding and change should I understand differently. I absolutely mean no ill will. I do not mean to attack in any manner. I do not mean to retaliate in any mannner. I have stated how I feel with what I have to go on. Perhaps, you could help me to see differently. If so, I would welcome it. I by NO MEANS claim supremacy... nor do I claim I am right. I am correct in my existence as I see it. That is all. I would love to understand 'women' better so that I could be a better man with/for them. I would love to help you understand 'men' better if I could in any way. I am not at all confident in the thought that I could help you understand men, but I can help you understand ME, and why I think the way I do. And perhaps, through that, you might catch a bit of insight into the 'rougher sex'.

<small>[ August 24, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

This evening I went to a social gathering where I struck up a conversation with a couple of women whom I had seen around, but whom I had never really had a chance to meet before. They turned out to be childhood friends from another country. One of them is strikingly beautiful by any standard. She carries herself well, and dresses tastefully in a way which accentuates her full suite of positive physical features. The other is quite heavyset. Both women seem very nice.

A third person I talked to this evening is the husband of one of these women. He is from my (now) local area, and is a hip and talented artistic type. The strikingly beautiful woman had met him on a missions project, and through that connection (the project? or the man?) she came here to the U.S. Her heavyset friend joined her here a year later.

Care to guess which woman the guy married?

That's right! The heavyset one!

I suspect that the problem of having children may be the most significant aspect to the age gap issue. From my reading, it appears that a very common difficulty when the man is notably older than the woman, is that the woman wants to have children and the man does not. Typically this is because it's not the first marriage for the man, he has already "done the kid thing", and he does not want to do it again.

My case differs from the norm in that I do not have any children. My ex-wife was vehemently opposed to having children, and it was not an issue for me. Both during my marriage and afterward, I pretty much kept the idea of having children out of my mind, since it didn't seem like a viable option. But then, when I unexpectedly "fell in love" with a woman who not only was young enough to have children, but who also wanted to have children, I was forced to resurrect the long-abandoned prospect of being a father and consider how I felt about it. And lo and behold I discovered that, although I found the possibility very scary from a financial perspective, the prospect made the idea of marrying a younger woman far more attractive than the idea of marrying an older woman.

So I'm afraid I must agree with FC that "age does matter", although not for the reasons he cited...

FC said: "Each person is different. ...But certain situations are the same. ...There are just certain parameters that give him the best chance at a good life and marriage. And to start off with a potential strain is not what I would want to do."

A "potential strain"? If you deal with potentialities and play the percentages, then I dare say that you will never get married at all. I think it's far wiser to look at the realities as best you can, in the individual situation. And every relationship is going to have significant difficulties to overcome. Even the ones that look perfect are problematic, because without conflict there is little opportunity for developing the skills that are going to be oh so necessary when adversity hits - as it eventually will!

Personally, I think that pre-marital counseling as it is generally practiced is as backward as the general practice of dating. Backward, that is, in the sense that the order is all wrong. When developing an opposite-sex relationship, I think it is generally best to build friendship before romance. And when considering marriage, I think it is best to get counseling right at the outset. That way, the areas of "potential strain" can hopefully be considered before the emotional investment in the relationship becomes too great to permit objective evaluation.

Is this practical? Perhaps not. But wouldn't it be nice?

I've read this intelligently discussed thread with interest. I think one of the reasons some comments have struck nerves is because we are dealing with somewhat gender sensitive issues. To a woman, two things society tells us are paramount are age and looks.These two things are not AS important to men. Advancing age in a man isn't seen as a negative. And looks aren't quite as important. Honestly, isn't it more common to see attractive women with less attractive men then vice versa? So when someone says "I am looking for someone young and gorgeous," it may bring out some defensiveness.

I am trying to think of issues that maybe men could relate to, that they may have more insecurities about. Maybe sexual performance? That might be something that would bring about equivalent feelings. Or maybe how much money that make, or if they are in a position of power in their work environment?

I've read this thread with interest and appreciate the way the participants have dealt with different points of view!

I should be headed for bed and shouldn't post much ... but I wanted to say a couple of things:

My friend has never told me any reason why he was not interested in dating me - just that he was not. I know that he wants children very badly because of other conversations ... and we have talked in general about relationships and the fact that so many men place such a high value on looks. All of the reasons I wonder about completely conjecture - I have nothing on which to base anything more definite.

Our few angry encounters occurred well after our very brief discussion regarding my feelings for him - we both knew where the other stood at that point - so they weren't of any influence.

I'm sorry that you've had so many women after you for money. There is a significant percentage of females that are shallow in that way.

And I had a little chuckle at your take on the online dating descriptions ... you're right. It's better to know that they are jerks before any kind of effort is put into a relationship.

One more thing that I don't know if I made clear with regard to my friend: I work with him - fairly closely. We see each other 8 hours a day 5 days a week. We socialize with the same people. We talk on the phone up to 2-3 hours at a time at least 4-5 evenings a week, and often do the same on the weekends. He initiates our out of work contact as often as I do.

Generally, when a person cares for another person and that feeling isn't returned, there is little contact between them, and the "unloved" (couldn't think of any other word to use, sorry) has the opportunity to "recover" - sort of like Harley's Plan B. But, because of the work relationship, I can't do a Plan B. I'm kind of stuck with the working together part of our relationship. And, to be honest, I often feel weak and foolish for continuing the out of work contact, but I do enjoy his company ... and the cats just can't appreciate getting a spam email from a guy looking for a time travel machine.

Terri, I didn't realize that he hasn't told you why. I can't say, and perhaps it is exactly what you have stated you 'think' it might be. I can understand why it would be VERY difficult to see someone all the time in the way you must. However, I can also say that I can see why even that might be a hinderance rather than a boon to him wanting a relationship. What if it didn't work out? Then how in the world could you see him 8 hours a day 5 days a week. I really try to stay away from those I work with just for this reason.

GDP, you state that

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A "potential strain"? If you deal with potentialities and play the percentages, then I dare say that you will never get married at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Children are NOT a potential strain. Marriage is NOT a potential strain. They are a definite strain. In the very best of marriages, there will be issues as you stated. To start off with big ones KNOWINGLY only, in my opinion, dooms the marriage to difficulty. Do you, who has completely thought things through 'consciously' where most men just think unconsciously, really think that a prudent and wise thing to do is start a relationship in which you already see something that is bothersome to you. And not only something, but something like CHILDREN? I think that if one of the two wants children, that is one of the most noble reasons to choose someone who not only WANTS children, but wants them in the same way. Children are too important to have them as an afterthought. As a counter offer. As a bargain. They deserve for both mom and dad to want everything about and for them. Not because mom or dad was making concessions to the other or was talked into it in order to be with that person.

And not only that, but that saying that you would be willing to overlook the potentialities that are right in front of you, is NOT like I think you would usually post. You are usually one of the most down-to-earth posters on this site. Seeing things bottom line, etc. But to say the above is to, in my opinion, close your eyes to the reality of a situation, in order to live a dream. This is my opinion, nothing else. I know that there will always be compromises. There will always be issues. There will always be getting less or doing more than you want to in a given situation. That is absolute and without question. I am not 'Polyanna' in thinking that I will have it perfect. That is NOT what I am trying to say. I am not trying to attack, just say that this doesn't sound like you usually do, again, in my opinion.

I am happy that you have someone in your life that fits just who you hope to be with. That is EXACTLY what I want as well. I don't want to have to start my relationship saying, 'This important part of who I am and what I desire is not longer reasonable, because I am not going to look down the road.' I want to say, "WOW, she wants what I want. She likes what I like. And not only that, but best of all, she LOVES ME to boot." That is what I want, and I will live my life with it or without it, but not live 'OUR' life without it.

And about being friends first. I was friends with my ex for more than 2 years before I ever saw her as something else. We were in fact, probably best friends. So much so, that I didn't recognize the signs she was giving me that she wanted more until she just wouldn't leave my house after a party one evening. Yes, being friends is great. But I would rather go into a relationship with that relationship right out in the open. With NO HOLDS BARRED conversation about what she wants and what I want. I will not lie. I pray that she will not either. I want to be friends, definitely want to be friends with my wife. I want to be best friends with her, but I tell you, being friends FIRST doesn't mean as much as you might think in my opinion. She knew who I was and what I stood for, maybe to the detriment of our marriage, because she married me thinking that she knew me enough to be able to coerce me into things. Well, she didn't know me well enough. And I was obliviously in love with her, so I couldn't see straight anyway.

I would rather go on a date with both of us thinking right from the start, 'Is this someone I want to wake up next to for the rest of my life? Can I rely on this person? Does she want children? Can she love my children? Can he provide for our family? DO I LOVE HIM?' I was a best friend to someone and I thought that love could conquer all. My love could... her's could not. Our friendship died... I don't know when, but it did. It is my fault just like it is her's. Life got in the way and instead of living life, we fought against it. I learned... I learned, but I couldn't help her to see what life could be. I learned too late and I am not sure she will ever learn. I hope she does. I really, really do.

Perhaps I am too much of a pragmatist. Perhaps too much of a realist. I love romance, I crave infatuation, I become invigorated by just the thought of having someone to think about. I am supremely careful about what I say and how I say it, because just as you have stated GDP, I am afraid of hurting someone. But when I find the one that I want to be with, I will finally be able to be me in everything that I want to be. I hope that she will love me for it, because if she doesn't, I hope that she won't put up with it either. I am extremely romantic... I love the thought of surprising my love. Keeping her guessing. Making her think there is nothing better I can do, then topping it every time.

One of the best things my wife could have ever said, and this will sound ridiculous I know, but this stems from the fact that she doubted my ability and skill in EVERYTHING. She never thought I could do this or that, and I felt compelled to show her I could. Now these were good things, not 'I will show you!' kind of things. But I would just ONCE have liked her to have said, "Honey, you make me proud." Never once happened. Never at all. But finally, about a year before our separation, and I don't quite know how she could say or think this with what she was doing at the time, She said, "If I was in trouble and could have ANYONE in the world rescue me, I would pick you. I know that you could save me from anything." She said that... why she said it while she was out having affairs, I will never know. How she could be so duplicitous in her actions and her words was exactly how our marriage fell apart. Thinking and doing one thing, but saying something else. I just wanted a true to heart "Honey you make me proud."

That is what I want... I want my wife to feel good that she is with me. I want her to be proud to be my wife. I was always proud of my wife... what she had done for our family... in essence. There were many things I was not proud of, like bigotry, lying, vengfulness, drunkenness, etc. But I was always proud of her as my wife, and I told her. Never once, when I graduated from medical school, worked the 60 hour week then the 24 hour Saturday shift for our family, painted her a picture, remodeled our home, hand beaded her a belt, made her anniversary band, not to mention all I did with our boys. Never once can I recall ever hearing her say she was proud of me. In fact, I once moonlighted from Friday evening to Monday evening STRAIGHT, just to get us back on our feet. And when we were getting divorced, she said, 'You were just doing what you were supposed to for our family.' I just did what I was 'supposed to' while everything she did was 'superhuman'. I want that... I guess admiration is one of my big things. Not deference. Just knowing that what I can do for my family is appreciated.

Kind of got off topic... sorry.

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

I'm thinking about all the logical reasons why relationships don't work - and all those insane reasons why they do...

I've never been 'money hungry' and I don't think anyone could consider me a 'gold digger' (though my ex referred to me in those terms quite often when he wasn't interested in supporting his family).

I'm in that "over 40 catagory" along with CJ and some of the other posters on here - I don't have a lot of 'looks' going for me - if the men out there are looking for skinny model types - I'm doomed.

However, I've dated several men who told me how much fun I am, how lovely I am (and I'm sure they mean appearances), and the reality is - there are THOSE out there who find my type *me* attractive. The key is - for me to find THOSE *attractive* - and at some point make a connection that is lasting and worthy of the effort to continue it.

Since I started this thread <looking carefully out of camoflage netting> as a result of several inept 'dating experiences' - I finally *gave in* and went out with one of those 'on-line friends' whom I was certain could never be more than a friend...

OMG ---- I'm sitting here - merely minutes after he left from spending the weekend here with my kids and I (our third weekend - in five weeks - I think) thinking <I know I'm crazy> but that man proposed to me, and I accepted Friday --- before he spent the whole weekend. His proposal was in the form of --- "I'm really interested in making a commitment to date ONLY you - for a long time - or until we get married, because I want to get to know you a lot better, and I feel our relationship is worthy of 'exclusivity'. Any chance you would consider making a commitment to give us a chance to 'work out'... ?"

So I'm sitting there last Friday night at 2AM responding with, "So, what basis of emotion are we basing this 'commitment' on?"

So, he says, "Well, the fact that this week, I've said, 'I love you' at least 40 times and you've responded, 'I love you too', we have fun together, and you seem to be okay managing your own problems - with my input and caring (from past email experience over many months), and I have no doubt that I'm shocking you by saying this, but I'm having a really hard time trying to stay in 'friend' mode - when I so long to be your 'husband' and I'm thinking if we aren't dating anyone else - maybe we have a chance of making sure we aren't living a dream without any reality."

To the forum ----

I'm thinking "Dating exclusively?" (you mean I had time to DATE anyone else since I actually MET him in person??? if he isn't here - he's on the phone - okay --- except for those 8 hours he's working, and the hours he's sleeping, and --- oh yeah - those hours he's eating and chattering online with me.)

AND I'm thinking "THAT was a FRIEND kiss good-bye last weekend whe I met you on Saturday night 120 miles away from home for an impromptu dinner with three kids and a sick 18 year old?" (Ummmmm I'm still uncurling my toes - and it felt like a peck on the cheek! But when he touched me my knees went week, my fingers went numb, there were fireworks, and does anyone else hear those bells?)

AND My brain is doing summersaults at the aspect of becoming part of a two-some again - in ANY form. It keeps smacking my heart with that internal 2X4 and saying something like "you stupid sucker all you ever do is fall (in love) and get broken!"

So, my taker kicks in and says, "Okay, what's in it for me?" And the list goes on... and on... and on.... Then the giver kicks in and says, "But I'm loosing control." And I'm thinking --- not a bad way to go...

Boundaries --- boundaries --- where are you....?

There they are --- stuck behind the moon hanging in the sky --- that itty bitty sliver with stars shining through...

So, I'm measuring the logic, and recalling that I did that before....

You know ----

*Sound employment.
*Self supporting.
*Capable of loving.
*History of loving.
*Emotionally stable.
*Financially stable.
*Independent abilities.
*Organized.
*Future in sight...?

*meets my needs....
*loves my kids.....
*Christian....
*respects me loves me adores me and he still loves my kids?
*his feet are bigger than mine...

Okay --- does exclusive dating mean I have to get rid of my little black book? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This sounds a little bit like making a commitment to be committed... um, that didn't sound right.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He opens the door for me - and doesn't make it look awkward, if I happen to open the door for him on occasion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He picks up the tab for me and the kids - almost all the time, and tells me quietly, "honey, this was more than I expected, do you have an extra dollar?" (My mistake - I gave him the wrong price for the rodeo tickets.) He slipped me the money for all the tickets, and I paid for them, while he slips his arms around my waist and nibbles on my neck from behind, whispering, "Thanks baby, I owe you one." (WHAAT??? NOT angry that I missed up on the price of the tickets???)

Okay --- before I nominate him for saint hood (his halo is slightly askew and he has horns and a BRIGHT RED pitchfork tail) I have to add --- he's the most REAL man I've dated in a long time, and he gives me credit for my attributes, as well as stepping up to the plate with a list of his own.

The accidental realization that I make more money than he does, came with a simple smile and encouragement, to continue with what I do, as well as a STATED hope that it won't matter if he isn't as DRIVEN as I am, he'll try to encourage me in my endeavors, and help me stay grounded by just loving me through all the ordeals that come along with the high stress levels. I sensed a defined pride in his own self value as he managed over the weekend to continue picking up the "tab" graciously in his developing role as 'leader in our family'...

(Accidental Realization by way of ---- Saturday's mail arrived, with a check clipped outside the envelope <mailroom damage> visible for all the world to see - this year's proceeds from a magazine publisher. Postman gave mail to the adult standing nearby with my son - happened to be my boyfriend. BF well aware that THIS is only ONE source of revenue.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So - his resonse last night when I told him I'd considered his question and I thought exclusively dating him - would be a great idea? I really like him, and I can see a future for us, and I'd really like to give us a chance to become "US". He says, "Do you feel any chemistry between us?" And, I cautiously say --- ummmmm you first.

He says, "Oh baby, I feel chemistry between us!" With eyes that light up the night, rock my world, and sent my knees quivering into hiding safely in his embrace. So, from my precarious post (in his arms) I look up into the most devilish blue eyes I've EVER seen and say calmly, "Well, I've heard the fireworks, seen the explosions, and the damage is extreme. Chemistry -- yeah."

The reality here is --- I'm so afraid of hurting someone else, and yet.... I don't want to stop loving, I want to love like I'm not afraid anymore. I want to love like it will last forever, and pray that it really does!

Hugs and blessings,

Jan

Jan... THAT is what I am looking for.

Dang FC --- and I just got taken <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sweetie, I wish you ALL the best in the world --- and you know what --- I have hope that you will find it. I know how it felt when it started - I was in shock... kept pinching myself to see if I was awake, and now... I'm still pinching myself.

Not because it seems too good to be true - but because it seems too real to be this good.

Blessings,

Jan

Oh yeah --- I was reading the part about 40-somethings having babies... I'm probably one of those crazy women who would say - YES if I had someone who would stick around for longer than the wham bam it takes for me to get pregnant. (But he better treat my kids right in the process! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly Confused:
<strong>Children are NOT a potential strain. Marriage is NOT a potential strain. They are a definite strain. In the very best of marriages, there will be issues as you stated. To start off with big ones KNOWINGLY only, in my opinion, dooms the marriage to difficulty. Do you, who has completely thought things through 'consciously' where most men just think unconsciously, really think that a prudent and wise thing to do is start a relationship in which you already see something that is bothersome to you. And not only something, but something like CHILDREN? I think that if one of the two wants children, that is one of the most noble reasons to choose someone who not only WANTS children, but wants them in the same way. Children are too important to have them as an afterthought. As a counter offer. As a bargain. They deserve for both mom and dad to want everything about and for them. Not because mom or dad was making concessions to the other or was talked into it in order to be with that person.

And not only that, but that saying that you would be willing to overlook the potentialities that are right in front of you, is NOT like I think you would usually post. You are usually one of the most down-to-earth posters on this site. Seeing things bottom line, etc. But to say the above is to, in my opinion, close your eyes to the reality of a situation, in order to live a dream. This is my opinion, nothing else. I know that there will always be compromises. There will always be issues. There will always be getting less or doing more than you want to in a given situation. That is absolute and without question. I am not 'Polyanna' in thinking that I will have it perfect. That is NOT what I am trying to say. I am not trying to attack, just say that this doesn't sound like you usually do, again, in my opinion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops. I switched contexts on you a bit, FC, and obviously did it without adequate setup. As a result, I ended up communicating almost the opposite of what I intended!

I completely agree about the children issue, and I also agree that it is entirely unwise to jump into marriage with serious known problems such as incompatible life goals. Here are the bits of your original post to which I was reacting (carefully stripped of their context so as to distort their intended significance as much as possible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My ex was 5 years older...and truthfully, 5 years one way or the other is minimal. However, it put her in a different spot in her 'life' than I was capable of putting her, and it justified her behavior, even if only in her mind. ...I know that I wouldn't even consider someone 12 years older, because of what I have learned. Each person is different. I understand that. But certain situations are the same. My opinion is that even though I am absolutely sure that there is a wonderful 45 year old woman out there that would be a fantastic wife for me, the chances of problems are much greater than someone 30-35 or so. ...And to start off with a potential strain is not what I would want to do. Again, I know it doesn't mean doom, but it sure isn't a 'set up' for success.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I drew from this the notion that you would not bother considering an age gap relationship due solely to the likelihood that you would be in such different "spots" that the "potential strain" would be too great. The specific example you provided from your own experience was that your wife "believed that it was reasonable that she should have MORE at her stage of life that WE had at the time. Somewhere within her, she rationalized that at almost 40, she should be in a different place than we were." In other words, the two of you had different lifestyle expectations which derived from the difference in your ages.

But different lifestyle expectations are common even with no age gap. Perhaps they are statistically more likely with an age gap relationship, but relationships are between individuals, and in my opinion are best evaluated as such. So my objection was to the idea that a whole class of possible marriage partners be eliminated from consideration because statistically there would be small likelihood of finding a match within that class. And in fairness, my reaction to this idea is probably more a reaction to my own ill-thought-out assumptions in that direction. My ex-wife isn't much more than a year younger than I am, but from her lack of maturity I extrapolated that I should never consider marrying a younger woman again. (I want an equal partner!) If God hadn't gone to such lengths to force me to "notice" my lady friend, my preconceptions would have prevented me from seeing her in "that way". (And despite the frustrations and the impossible-to-see future, this is a roller-coaster I wouldn't have wanted to miss!)

The problem of children is entirely different, in my opinion. There are certain biological realities involved, and the situation moves from being a matter of differing life expectations to differing life goals. Expectations are relatively easy to deal with. But goals can be deal-breakers, depending on how tightly they are held. I would not want to get romantically involved with a woman whose goals conflicted with mine.

Jan...

Are you sure you're the same person who started this thread? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LOL ---

Gnome actually it is me... I was going through the list at the point when I wrote this --- I'd been writing the guy I'm now dating for a while... and several other guys had asked me out... I felt really popular for a short bit... a date every weekend - and then I realized nobody calls back --- do I have BO or something?

Then finally - the one that I've been writing to suggest meeting - and I'm not so sure - because he's kind of 'dead' online... but we meet - and it's like "alleluha"... What a guy!!!

Sometimes online does NOT depict the real person.

Jan

Just a quick note: I am not sure that I can, at my age conceive a child - but I darn well want to - and I'm looking for a man who is willing to try. Even though I'm 44 tomorrow.

And, I have to admit that I am almost always attracted to younger men. My ex was 6 years younger than I, but I don't see the break up of our marriage as a reason not to date younger men.

I often have more in common with people in their early to mid thirties than I do with people who are my own age. Perhaps that is because I am in a different place in life than most people who are my age. I have no children, I enjoy the types of activities that many younger people enjoy, I have no responsibilities except myself. I'm still not sure what I want to be when I grow up, and I'm still exploring who I am.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terri:
<strong>...I'm 44 tomorrow.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So...Happy birthday, terri!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I often have more in common with people in their early to mid thirties than I do with people who are my own age. Perhaps that is because I am in a different place in life than most people who are my age. I have no children, I enjoy the types of activities that many younger people enjoy, I have no responsibilities except myself. I'm still not sure what I want to be when I grow up, and I'm still exploring who I am.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have made this same observation about myself, except that I've been hanging out with people who are mostly in their mid-to-late twenties. The same sort of reasons apply. Most of my peers are busy with the activities of their school-age children.

Actually, though, I think I have a pretty darn good idea of who I am. But it would take several lifetimes for me to explore everything I want to do and be. So I don't ever plan to stop experimenting with new experiences and ideas.

Hi, all,

Gnome, thanks for the birthday wish. It was a pleasant, quiet day - unlike today.

My friend and I both almost quit our jobs today - not because of each other - it's a long story, and not on the divorce topic, so I'll just say that there were some huge misunderstandings between our supervisor and us and we were accused of defying something we were told to do when we really both had a different understanding of what we were told to do ... it's a mess and I hope it will be straightened out soon because I am so sad and discouraged about the situation. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />