HI LOVEMYEX,
I totally agree... "With God all things ARE possible...
My Wife and I re-married each other and THAT WAS ON OUR WEDDING CAKE!!

I have to say that I also agree with Chris... Chris and I go WAY back... to 1999 and the beginning of my W's A...

One thing I can say is I THANK GOD I came here THEN.... and NOT now.... there are still so many AWESOME people here don't get me wrong....BUT.....

There was VERY little of the "Divorce the B_ _ _ _ on these boards back then (1999)

IF there were... I DOUBT very much that I would be with my W today...(Although God's will...I might have NOT done his will and waited!!)

I came here BITTER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ANGRY, CONFUSED <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> SAD <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> AND LOST.

There was MUCH support for SAVING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> the Marriage and helping me grow no matter what happened...

Suggesting HATE to someone in that situation is NOT the answer....

LOVE.....LOVE......LOVE..... for me.... for my WS....for my family. That's what I got here....

The "Outside world" gave me all the "Divorce the b_ _ _ _ I could handle..... my HEART told me otherwise in spite of my anger...

MB confirmed what my HEART told me was RIGHT....

Plan "A" is only LOVE.... nothing wrong with that....and if done right it DOES work... LOSTVA ME and MANY MANY others....

BUT... you can't do a HALF Plan "A" and a 3/4 Plan "B"...... it works if you do them RIGHT 100%

It's hard.... the hardest thing I'VE EVERY DONE.... But.... it was/is worth it... because SHOWING LOVE is ALWAYS "WORTH IT"....
I LOVED.....LOVE my Wife.... so I showed her unconditional Love..

WhenIfindthetime.....
as for..... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what ever happened to an individual being responsible for their own decisions? or is this just a repeat the EN's survey, read and apply the LBs book forum? and you all follow blindly with or without success?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOVE IS BLIND.....and I thank God for that every time my Wife looks at me..... WITH LOVE.....
I think you will be hard pressed to find a Marriage that went through what OURS went through and survived... ALL GLORY TO GOD.... only HE could have pulled THIS Marriage out of the fire (see below) But he did it THROUGH MB....and the "Divorce is NOT an option" and unconditional LOve mentality that was here then...
My 2 cents... If your HEART tells you to wait... then WAIT...it's like someone in a coma... (and Our WS ARE in a coma..fog.. whatever.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

WHEN do you pull the plug?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> It just may be the hour before they wake up!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

The point is not a religion debate (which go on here as regularly as clockwork), the point was no one can know what someone should do, and "telling" someone to stay married is the functional equivalent of telling them to divorce....both are telling, and either could be good or bad depending on the particulars for that individual. I just think it is appropriate to point out people who "stay" in marriages often fare quite badly. I realize many approach the matter of marital philosophy with much emotion...I think that one is better served by tempering that emotion with rational consideration too. Once again, I will say the example you gave sound terrific, but that only is true for that couple, their outcome has nothing to do with anyone elses, nor can anyone possibly know it was the best outcome. It is inappropriate to use such examples as a principle all should follow. Others circumstances (and the individuals in them) could be (and often are) vastly different. Such anecodotal evidence (of a marriage that recovered, or one that ended and set someone free from neglect/dysfunction) is fine for general purpose "hopefullness" but of limited value in properly assessing and making choices in ones particular circumstance. For that, other tools are needed, ones that can be applied without bias, but for revealing truth, and healthy decision making.

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just think it is appropriate to point out people who "stay" in marriages often fare quite badly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That.... is an unfair statement..a negative statement... and is as bad as telling someone to "D" or not "D" (according to YOUR train of thought.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Such anecodotal evidence (of a marriage that recovered, or one that ended and set someone free from neglect/dysfunction) is fine for general purpose "hopefullness" but of limited value in properly assessing and making choices in ones particular circumstance. For that, other tools are needed, ones that can be applied without bias, but for revealing truth, and healthy decision making.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHEW..... you are something... do you really think you can dissect...analyze and scientifically prove anything when you ARE dealing with a HUMAN EMOTION? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Marriage is more simple than that... it's (or should be) about LOVE... a FEELING....not a FROG or something that can be "figured out" with a calculator...
If you can describe a "feeling" it's really NOT a feeling but merely a "thought"
And... Marriage is also a "contract" or promise between two people and God...
To understand what it's "supposed" to be just read the fine print...

These stories of reconciliation... aren't impossible to apply to our marriages.... AND will bring you to a better place of belief and "hope" and Faith... than.... well no offence... the way you think...
Put away the scalpel... the calculator and maybe even get involved with a "religion debate"... (forget that.... NO WAY you can get a religion into your calculator)
AND FEEL LOVE....GIVE LOVE... it WILL COME BACK... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FRANK,

Your testimony makes my day!!!!!!! I am soooooo happy for you and that is just soooooo awesome!! Praise the Lord! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> God is going to use your testimony to save other marriages! There is nothing more powerful than a restored marriage... in my opinion... because it just speaks volumes about the power of God! That is just so awesome and I'm so glad you shared this!

I recently got a book called "My Husband My Maker" by Sharon Reis. Have you heard of Raul Reis before? He was the subject of a movie called "From Fury to Freedom?" Well, he abused the snot out of his wife! I mean, ABUSED! Physically and verbally. But she was a godly woman and loved him and did not want to divorce him. But most of all, she was a woman who prayed and trusted the Lord. Despite years of his abuse and unfaithfulness (he cheated several times), she prayed and she stayed married for two main reaons-- not because she felt like it but because she wanted to keep her vows and obey God in that manner and also she did it for the sake of the children.

But finally, she couldn't bear anymore and she was leaving to separate him. I can't remember but I don't think she was divorcing him but separating. Well, let me also add, he was not a Christian and he pretty much mocked her faith and God. That was another reason she tried hard to stay faithful, etc. She was the example of God to him.

Here is an example of something he once said to her: "You filthy witch! Why don't you just stay out of my life? Why don't you leave me alone? You've ruined my life with your religion and your stupid family!"

You know what she said? She said, "I am here to stay." She was very fearful of him but she said she hated divorce and knew that God did too.

WOW! I have no doubt that if she were posting on message boards, people would be saying "Divorce the Loser! You deserver better! Yada, yada."

At one point, an old love contacted her telling her he still loved her. Can you imagine? Her she is with this horribly abusive, unsaved man and this nice guy wanted to meet her and is telling her he loves her. At this point, she says she hated Raul and she was in the despairs of self-pity. But she kept turning to the Bible and she kept praying, daily. She said, "Many times I fell asleep on the bathroom floor, my face buried in my Bible. I memorized whole chapters of Scripture, attempting to brainwash myself with concepts that were true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and of good report. Peace embraced me as the words of God carressed my soul."

Well, her husband treated her wose. He'd kick her, grab her face, squeeze her throat, yell at her and call her a "religious freak." (Can't you see the huge spiritual battle going on??)

Well, when she decided to leave him, this is what happened.He heard Chuck Smith on t.v. (the guy from Calvary Chapel) and he accepted Christ!! And do you know that that very night, when he went to the house, it was with the intent to kill his wife and kids? They were at church and to pass the time as he waited for them, he flicked through channels on t.v. and that is when he heard Chuck Smith.

Well, for awhile, she still didn't trust him or believe and didn't love him, but she stayed married to him and later shares that she refell in love with him. They became missionaries and Raul Reis has led hundreds of people to the Lord with his testimony! Not only a missionary, but a missionary to Chile which is where she grew up and had longed for TWENTY ONE years to return to.

There is NOTHING to difficult for God!

Frank, I really want to know more about your testimony!! Do you have previous posts here where I could read more? I am just thrilled to hear of another restored marriage!

I came here about 10 mos. ago when my husband divorced me. I was so distraught. Someone in here recommended a restoration site (www.restorem.org) so I went there, and it literally changed my life as I began to seek reconciliation with my husband. I stopped coming here because I wasn't looking for a "plan A" or "plan B", etc. Also, I was no longer looking for advice from people. I began to just seek the Lord and I foudn some prayer partners and encouraged them to do the same. I began to just read Scripture, pray and fast and work on changing myself and the things I needed to change. I didn't return to here until just the other day but not for the purpose of seeking advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but for the purpose of encouraging reconciliation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I won't be here long. I am planning on beginning a week long fast this next week in which I want to renew myself because I have neglected my time in the Word and prayer. I still am seeking reconciliation with my husband. I refuse to date, join single's groups, or even think like a single person. "What God has joined together, let no man tear asunder." I am a fool in the world's eyes (like you once were <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but I don't care. I am learning what true love is all about by loving my spouse without receiving it in return. If I even spend one day with him in a restored marriage, it will all be worth it. To me, staying single and going through the pain is worth even just one day of reconciliation.

God bless you and your marriage! May God bless you and your wife and use your testimony to bless others and help them!

Sufdb, I don't tell people to stay married because they want to hear it or because I want to say it or because it's advice, etc. I tell them because it's Biblical. The Bible says, "What God joined together, let no man [included attorneys!] tear asunder." I tell people because I believe in the power of God who truly can do all things. If God can raise dead people, He can surely raise a dead marriage. Telling someone to stay married is not the equivelent of telling them to divorce or stay divorced. One is God's will and one is not.

P.S. How about that guy who came out of the coma after 20 years? (Sorry, I can't remember the exact amount of years)? Good thing they didn't pull the plug on him.

You know, we don't divorce our children, our parents, or our siblings. Marriage is the only relationship where we can get out of it if it doesn't go well. It was never meant to be that way. When Moses told the people rules regarding divorce, it was because God knew that they were going to disobey and divorce and mistreat each other. But Moses said, "It was not this way from the beginning." It was not the way God intended it to be. If God is "the same today, yesterday, and forever," then it still is not the way God intended it to be.

By the way, it is a "religious debate" because how a person views God and what they believe about God will determine how they view marriage, divorce, and remarriage as well.

PH...Marriage is more simple than that... it's (or should be) about LOVE... a FEELING....not a FROG or something that can be "figured out" with a calculator...

Sufdb...this thread has taken a curious turn. I agreed with the premise, and suggested "telling" people to stay married is no different than "telling" people to to divorce (in both cases well-meaning people are suggesting your life will be better).......and that people (I am sure you know some), who stay married (because of feelings I presume) often have very bad outcomes. This is simply a fact. Has nothing to do with me, or my opinions about marriage.

re your quote PH. It is almost a mantra here (boards, and MB philosophy) love is NOT a feeling, that it is a decision. Given your low member # I assume you know that. That means one in fact does "figure out" whether to remain married when one does not "feel" like it....correct? In fact it is feelings that often gets one into bad marriages, oft times even over the strenuous objections of friends and family advising vigorously NOT to get married ...what then, when your spouse turns out to be an unworthy mate....abusive, neglectful, narcissitic, homosexual, sociopathic, .... the list is a long one. The point is it is irresponsible to suggest one should never consider divorce...that insures many people will be trapped in lifetimes of mistreatment and psychological damage (not to mention the damage done to unfortunate children raised in such enviroments). It is also Scripturaly irresponsible to say God wants everyone to stay in the marriage they are in. That is a legalistic interpretation of His (IMO) will for us to be in healthy marriages. IMO He expects us to use our brains and our freewill to make proactive choices in our lives, including who (and how) we conduct all our relationships (including the ones we label marriage).

Time for me to comment:

I agree that divorce is far too easy. A crisis emerges and hasty decisions are made which are often encouraged by "supportive" friends and family.

It seems to me though that divorce is most often caused by cruel, unfortunate timing. Marriages are really like incubators where two emotional babies grow at different rates. When their growth rates become out of sync, semmingly unsuromountable problems occur. One partner`s growth may lead to a need for independence. They then leave the relationship suddenly. The dumped partner then feels painfully rejected and finds someone else. Later the partner who left wants to come back but then it is too late. If only married people could understand this concept and better coordinate their growth rates.

Except in extreme cases, divorce is not the answer, but rather only an escape´!

Standing in Finland

I wish you well lovemyex, I know nothing of your circumstances and you may have the outcome (and it work well) you seek. This thread was not about you, or anyones circumstance it was about "telling" people what to do, and that is where my comments need to be considered.

I agree ones "religious" beliefs obviously will affect the advice they "hear" and the actions they take. Which is why religous discussions (everywhere) are always contentious, as people examine why they believe what they believe, to be sure they are on the right track. As for marriage, believeing it is absolute automatically implies it makes no difference who you marry, that is in opposition to what, everyone I have ever asked feels, that they want to choose who they marry, because it does make a difference. If that is true (it does make a difference), than marriage cannot be an absolute. If it is not an absolute, than divorce is a legitimate choice....

As for the oft quoted man not put asunder what God joined together.... clearly God has the power to release one from marriage, and each has to decide for themself if that is God's will in their particular circumstance...IT DOES NOT mean one can impose their will on a marital partner, or that a marriage is even in place (no one can say with certainty when you are actually married, clearly it is not simply a function of saying a vow.....the nature of vows require informed consent, something often missing when people marry ). But the quotation is useful in justifying a single-minded course of action which ignores the reality of a given circumstance.

I too enjoy hearing the triumph of success from the depths of despair, it is great human drama. But for every one of those "success" stories (the extreme ones quoted here), there are thousands of men and women who live out their lives in quite desperation in abusive, neglectful, unhealthy marriages. I don't know how true the last one you mentioned actually is (none of us were there), but unfortunately many times the murder does occur. It is hard to see a case for saying those marriages were ones God wanted the victim to "stay" in.

Sufdb,

I don't mean this to offend or anything, but I get the impression that you really don't agree with all of Scripture. Is that true?

I also have a question that might sound wierd, but are you by any change open theist in your beliefs? Not sure if you are or if you've even heard of that, but there is this theology called open theist and your comments sound like someone who believes open theism. So I was just wondering.

Anyways, I'd like to say before going, that my husband and I should NOT have married... for many reasons. But you know what? We did! We stood before God and witnesses and this is what we said: "For better or WORSE, in SICKNESS and in health, 'til DEATH do us part." You see, we did not say "'til divorce do us part" or "'til hard times do us part." We said, "'til death." Now, again, I will say, my husband and I should not have married. It was too fast, we were too different, and there were too many thigns wrong. BUT... we married and the fact that we maybe shouldn't have does not in any way, shape, or form justify divorce!

Sufb, I was the one who first said, "I made a mistake" and somehow thought our marriage was doomed. I was a FOOL to ever say or think that because once you marry, you enter into a covenant relationship, one in which you made vows and one in which God doesn't just say, "Oops, you made a mistake... well, okay, divorce this one time, but don't do it again!" He expects us to keep our vows, even if the marriage is bad. Yep!

And I will tell you this, I am willing to remarry my husband even if he never loved me, even if he mistreats me, even if I have to sacrifice. I believe God will take care of me if that is the case and I believe God will honor and bless me for loving my husband regardless of any reciprocation of love. And for being kind to my husband regardless of how he might treat me. Simply for the simple sake of the children, I am willing to remarry. I hate that I am leaving them a legacy of divorce because of mine (and husband's) selfishness that somehow thinks we deserve this happy, perfect marriage.

You and I disagree and that's fine. You share your opinion, and I will share mine. Too many divorces are never even given the change for reconciliation because people remarry others and because other people pressure them to move on, get over it, etc., etc. I wonder how many marriages could be reconciled if more people would encourage it and not only encourage, but help the people!

You know, this earth is not our home as Chrisitans. We are going to suffer here, we are going to go through pain, we are going to hurt. It is unavoidable. But someday we are going to be home with Jesus in heaven. Personally, I have begun to remind myself of that. IF let's say, my husband and I remarry and he treats me poorly the rest of my life, then so be it, because I am only passing through this life and someday will be with Jesus. God has shown me (and you) his will in His Word... to love my enemies, to speak the truth in love (regardless of whether someone wants to hear it), to bless those who curse me, to trust the Lord, to lay down my life for a brother... that is love. That is what the Bible says. I don't even worry anymore about what my husband does wrong or right, etc... I just concentrate on me and ask myself, "Am I obeying?"

Not that I'm perfect. It's obviously easy to say this and harder to do, but that's the view of where I'm coming from. I know God does not restore all marriages... obviously.... but I will do all I can to encourage reconciliation and pray that God uses me in those people's lives.

P.S. Sufb, you also said this: "what then, when your spouse turns out to be an unworthy mate....abusive, neglectful, narcissitic, homosexual, sociopathic, .... the list is a long one"

First, I don't think divorce is always the answer. Separation might be though. Yes, even with abuse and neglect. People can change. Yes, with narcissism. So you married a narcissist. Pray, pray, pray and trust God to protect you, help you bear, and to change that person.

As for homosexuality, that is pretty much adultery and there is a specific Bible verse saying that divorce is permitted in the case of adultery.

As for sociopath, well, pray and seek God's will.

I think though the worst thing someone could do would be to get their advice here from people who are hurting and some who are angry and most of whom also are not trained counselors. Even a trained counselor might give bad advice.

I also want to mention that the situations you mentioned are really not that common. Most marriages that fail are due to things that can be helped. Very few spouses up and say that they are homosexual. And actually, as far as abuse, there is more abuse among unmarried couples living together than among married couples living together. Studies have shown all of this.

Obviously, in the cases where this kind of behavior is happening, a person needs to pray dilligently, fast, be in the Word, be in the fellowship of church, and seek God's will. But again, the reasons you mentioned are not the reasons most marriages end. And also, there are many, many cases in which one of the spouses claims the other is abusive or unchangealbe or neglectful, etc... but often, this is not truly the case. Divorce brings out the worse in everyone.

Look at the things they accused Jesus of that weren't true. That is also why I think there is some danger sharing all that stuff in a place like this. You might see your spouse as abusive when really he is not, and you might share that with others who then say "Leave him", etc. when there is much hope for the marriage.

Anyways, that's my opinion. Take it or leave it for what it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LoveMyEx,
THANKS for the kind words... you are the kind of person that saved my Marriage... the kind of person that was here in the beginning.... hang in there.... God's coming... I'd love to hear your story... do you have a link?
I posted mine in the need a lift... post I started... GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS.... FRANK

sufdb,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> love is NOT a feeling, that it is a decision. Given your low member # I assume you know that. That means one in fact does "figure out" whether to remain married when one does not "feel" like it....correct? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me quote myself here.... "you are something" !!

Of course Love is a "decision" BUT... not so much a choice that you can walk down the street and randomly pick someone out of a crowd to "Love" by throwing a dart into a crowd with your eyes closed... I WILL LOVE THE ONE THIS DART HITS..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I mean you have to FEEL SOMETHING... some sort of a spark...a connection.... you can't DECIDE to LOVE the way someone....thinks.....looks.... acts.... smells,,,,,,walks........
The DECISION statement really is a RE-DECISION.... AFTER you have loved this person... you Married this Person... your Marriage is off track...
YOU MAKE THE DECISION TO LOVE THIS PERSON AGAIN...OR STILL.... OR INSPITE OF.... OR BECAUSE OF THE......

You seem to me the type of person that gets caught up in the argument.... something you seem to enjoy...... almost as much as the sound of your own words,......and you are always negative...as far as I can see.... negativity? .......it gives me a headache.... it's easy to find the BAD..... USE YOUR POWER FOR THE GOOD LUKE....

LUKE.....FOR THE GOOOODDDDD!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Luke,

I haven't yet read your story in the other post but I am really excited about reading it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am planning on doing that before going to bed. I am on the West Coast.. it's not as late as the clock on here says. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have a question... sometimes when I reply I can see the other persons' message and sometimes I can't. Does anyone know why that is? I can't see your message right now Luke, so I'm going to post this and then finish after I go reread your message. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LoveMyEx
The post you just replied to was mine... PLEASE HELP... the "LUKE" part was a little fun I was having with sufdb.....

You know... LUKE SKYWALKER from Star Wars....
I feel that SUFDB has the "Power" of intelligence but he uses it to be mostly negative when he could use it for the "GOOD"...

Hi Again Frank,

I don't have a link to my story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am not yet reconciled though. I don't know if I will be or not. It's been about 10 mos, I currently have no contact with my husband and we live on oppostie sides of the country, but through many tearfilled nights, I wait and hold on to whatever small hope I have that evening. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am learning what true love is all about actually, and for that alone, it will all be worth it. I have chosen not to date and I have chosen to hope in the Lord, even though I know in the world's eyes (and even some Chrisitan's) I am "in denial" and everything else. It is the testimonies of others and their godly, encouraging words along with my Bible that give me strength. Anyways, that's all for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm sooooooo thankful that in the beginning, I found those two marriage restoration sites because I'm not sure I would have thought of reconciling if it hadn't been for them. Even if I am a lonely old spinster loving my husband til I'm 85, oh well! I keep remembering that someday I will be home with the Lord and all this stuff of earth will be GONE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Actually, IF my husband remarries, well, then I am not sure what I'll do, but that hasn't happened yet, so until then...

I like what you said about love being a "redision". I think that's kinda what I was trying to say. That even though it was maybe a "mistake" to marry, well, once you marry... and divorce does not "fix" the mistake. Plus, maybe in your eyes it was a mistake, but maybe all along it really wasn't!

p.s. who's Luke?? Is that sufb?

Hi Frank! heehee... yah, I saw that I called you Luke but saw your name "Frank" in the second post. Sorry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will read your story before logging off tonight! I am saving the best reading for last! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LoveMyEx,
I respect your decision to not date even though you are divorced... maybe because I did the same thing....
I only had a couple of people in my life that supported that... both on MB.... SHEBA and LOSTVA.. In Sheba's FIRST post to me she said... "Just because you divorced... it doesn't mean it's over...." It FLOORED me!!! And... she was right... so was LOSTVA....(a GREAT recovery story!!)

My HEART just wouldn't let me date... and after you read my story... you'll see WHY MOST people thought I was crazy...
I just knew that God would restore our Marriage AND.... I wanted to be able to say to my W... NO.....NO I didn't... without reserve....

God whispered to me that she wouldn't be able to handle any other answer... once she realized what I already knew... and that was my gift to her upon her return..... PRAISE GOD!!!

Boy do I hear ya Frank! The things you are saying are sooooo much my own feelings/thoughts. I need to meet this Lostva and Sheba! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have, in 10 mos, had 3 different men (one an ex boyfriend) "propostion" me (want to date!). I said no all 3 times and even kinda explained. I also want my husband to ask me about my dates, even if it's years from now, and to be able to tell him I didn't date. It's not totally easy, but it's like how it was with you. I love my husband so much and to date anyone is like cheating on him... even though we're divorced... not many people understand, but I know what's in my heart, and just like you, I believe this is God's will. I have got to get out of here... it is getting late, and I want to go read your story! I am very, very happy for you!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
love is NOT a feeling, that it is a decision. Given your low member # I assume you know that. That means one in fact does "figure out" whether to remain married when one does not "feel" like it....correct?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me quote myself here.... "you are something" !!

sufdb...I pointed out your own position, nothing more. Is your comment meant to ridicule, or is it a compliment?

PH...Of course Love is a "decision" BUT... not so much a choice that you can walk down the street and randomly pick someone out of a crowd to "Love" by throwing a dart into a crowd with your eyes closed... I WILL LOVE THE ONE THIS DART HITS.....

I mean you have to FEEL SOMETHING... some sort of a spark...a connection.... you can't DECIDE to LOVE the way someone....thinks.....looks.... acts.... smells,,,,,,walks........
The DECISION statement really is a RE-DECISION.... AFTER you have loved this person... you Married this Person... your Marriage is off track...
YOU MAKE THE DECISION TO LOVE THIS PERSON AGAIN...OR STILL.... OR INSPITE OF.... OR BECAUSE OF THE......

Sufdb....Ok, love is a feeling and a decision, a position I agree with. I think humans process information and take action best when they use these 2 systems TOGETHER... going either way alone leads to less satisfactory outcomes. You have modified your position to say (please clarify if I have this wrong). That marrying is a decision which includes feelings...but that once married feelings are irrelevant, and one can only decide to be married. It is unclear to me why feelings are important at one juncture, but to be denied at another. Even in your own story (posted elsewhere) you indicated feelings were crucial to your decision to continue to pursue your exwife, and persuade her to divorce her H (as opposed to encourage her to remain married to him, which is the position you argue here), that must have required substantial mental gumnastics to fit in your concept divorce is not allowed. It also violates God's specific admonition one cannot return to a previous mate after marrying another. Your case clearly illustrates why legalistic, absolute positions don't work. Maybe your exwifw (then) was to love this man, through that restore him, blah blah blah, and you interferred with that. I suspect you "justify" this by looking at all the "good" it brought into your life. I mention your circumstances because you brought your life into this discussion, and your behaviour was inconsistent with what you advocate. But it (your life) does support my position that marriage is about feelings and decisions, and that divorce is an integral part of a successful marital paradigm. I am not faulting you, I think you did the right thing, and I am happy your life was restored in a healthy way. One could argue that divorce improved your life twice over. Once by generateing a crisis sufficient to get your and wifes attention focused where it needed to be...and second by allowing you to remarry.

PH...You seem to me the type of person that gets caught up in the argument.... something you seem to enjoy...... almost as much as the sound of your own words,......and you are always negative...as far as I can see.... negativity? .......it gives me a headache.... it's easy to find the BAD..... USE YOUR POWER FOR THE GOOD LUKE....

sufdb... You are mistaken. I seek truth and understanding...in that effort I think it important (and observe when it is not), people offering positions and opinions be consistent, and make sense.... and not simply be pushing their agenda. Instead of making a point, you have just attacked me, trying to make your case by belittling me, this is a typical response from people who are pushing an agenda rather than seeking truth and understanding. But just for the sake of argument, assume I (or anyone, maybe you too since you are participateing as well) do love the sound of their own voice, what difference does that make, don't the positions, opinions, advice etc. posted speak for themselves?

I am always negative is another labeling effort often used to refute a position by trying to demean the speaker. You don't know me, can't possibly know whether I am "negative" or "positive" in temperament. I don't think taking the position marriage is not an absolute makes one a negative person...do you? We are talking about principles here, communication principles and behavioural principles. I am typically on the side of balancing (refuting) arguments that promote the principle, divorce is not an option, I think it is, and in fact must be in order for marriage to make any sense (and not be a prison). If the opportunity arose (and I have at various times). I can make the case for marriage as well, I think the choice of monogamous Christian type marriage is the paradigm of choice for maximum well-being.

It seems this disucssion is becoming less of a discussion and more of a personal issue. I understand the need some have to diminish a speaker rather than stay on topic, but at that point it becomes a waste of both persons time. I suggest we both move on. Good luck in your life, and by all means offer your experience as an example of possiblities. Indeed the future is always unwritten, and in part is determined by our actions in the present. I have no problem agreeing with that.