Sufb, you said, "divorce is an integral part of a successful marital paradigm"

????????????????????? I don't get that.

You also said, "It seems this disucssion is becoming less of a discussion and more of a personal issue."

Is there anything wrong with that though?? We are people in here having these dicussions. How do you separate your person from a discussion? I mean, how is any discussion not "personal"?

You sound like you come at this all with a more philosophical type of viewpoint... which obviously, you are free to do. I was wondering again, are you by any chance an "open theist?" I am just curious about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks! (It doesn't necesarily have any relevance... just something I'm wondering about out of my own curiosity).

Frank, as a friend, I hope you will take it all with a "grain of salt" and not be bothered by anything said. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God bless.

There are those on these boards who do not work with marriage builders techniques. Also, they think that marriage builders is a cult. They are negative toward saving marriages, and they try to twist words and statements around. And when someone else starts to babble back at them, and they get hurt feelings and say it was a personal attack. These are negative people, who are trying to phylosophy marriages, and not help those here who want help to save their marriages.

sdfd - is one of those who cannot give advice about staying in a marriage. The main course of his words is to debate. He is not being honest with all of us here.

I for one, want to encourage those asking for help to stay in their marrige. Get counseling, and work to keep what they once had. SDFd did you ever have love for your wife, and why did you marry her. He had children, to just have children? Or did you love your wife enough to have sex with her. Or did you use your wife.

Love is a decision and a feeling. So you fell out of love with your wife, and dumped her for a bimbo. You fell out of love with this bimbo, and now who do you love?

I feel you are getting out of hand with your statements, and when someone turns the babble backat you you want to run away, screaming someone is belittling me. Do you ever see where you are belittiling the spouse of the poster here. Belittling your wife, and do you see where this hurts plenty of people. Compassion is Mother Theresas goal of life. She gave an gave, and cared. She was a wise woman, who would give the shirt off her back, give the last piece of bread she had. That is a woman with Gods heart deep in her.

God hates divorce, and what you are stating is do what feels good. WRONG.

HI LoveMyEx and Faith4me,
Thanks for coming to my defense.... God Bless you both.. you are good friends....

sufdb
I'll answer your post later I'm a little busy and reading your overkill of intellectual phrasing which you use to create a smoke screen of words gives me a headache.... but... I do want to address one thing you said... I need to call my friend the Professor to help my little brain understand your thoughts... (you must get that a lot huh? Being so intellectually superior and all? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

Frank,

I understand completely what sufdb is trying to say. . . she may speak more eloquently and philosophically than you are able to comprehend .. . and that is ok, but because you might not be at the intellectual or educational level as sufdb, does not mean that you can insult, ridicule or demean the poster. . . nor make interpretative assumptions. . .

that action is a self preserving function to maintain your position and ego, but not learning, not trying to think through and figure out if you can comprehend. . . sufdb writes in a very philosophical manner. . . if you are not able to comprehend, then either ask questions, say that you need more help or do not respond. . . but don't belittle, put down, insult, or otherwise negatively criticize because you feel some inadequancies. . .

wiftty

WhenIfindthetime,
I'm glad you understand (her?) Allow me to speak philosophically...
If what I said was true than it's not an insult... is it?

I CAN totally comprehend what sufdb is trying to do.... just blow a smoke screen around the issues so we will spend more time wasted arguing with her than what we should be doing.. which is working on our Marriages and staying positive.

I haven't read many of sufdb's comments.. have tried to find her story to no avail...
BUT..... I've never heard anything but negative comments hidden within a barrage of words always taking the opposite stand... SMOKE... hiding negativity...not conducive to what we are trying accomplish here...

lovemyex...I don't mean this to offend or anything, but I get the impression that you really don't agree with all of Scripture. Is that true?

sufdb...No. I believe the Bible is the inspired and accurate Word of God.

lmx...I also have a question that might sound wierd, but are you by any change open theist in your beliefs? Not sure if you are or if you've even heard of that, but there is this theology called open theist and your comments sound like someone who believes open theism. So I was just wondering.

sufdb...I am a Christian fundamentalist, I am not famililar with what a theist is. However I am not legalistic, nor do I believe the way to Heaven (or salvation) is by way of good works (such as elevateing marriage, or any other behaviour, to legalistic status). I believe God gave us brains and expects us to use them. I also believe there is only one set of principles re human behaviour, and that science and Christianity must arrive at the same conclusions. You cannot have (and observe) human psychology, then just throw out whatever you don't like about that reality using God as a justification, it don't work that way.

please help,

I know how you feel about what sufdb has post. But, I believe you are wasting your time defending your beliefs. I believe as you do. I believe in unconditional love(use to not believe, Praise God, I learned this truth).I believe all things are possible. I also believe that to divorce or not to divorce is between you and God only.

I know GOd gave us a brain. But this same brain creates weapons of mass destruction. I have learned brains don't count for much if not back with God's word and principles. Wisdom comes from knowing God and His word.

You and I are believers, followers of Jesus Christ. You have to know Jesus to understand these things.

Let it go. You know the truth. Find peace in knowing that there is love that is not conditional. Find peace in knowing that God cares about and hears the smallest of prayers. Walk in peace knowing He cares about the little details of our life. Fill yourself with His love that says, come to me, lean on me, and caste all your burdens on me. Enjoy the freedom you have in Christ. Enjoy the freedom you have in knowing these truths.

Prasie God for your testimony. Keep telling your story. Some will believe and be changed by it others will still be searching or lost in a world of unbelief.

Show love in all you do. Let go with love. God and His ways do not need to be defended. Give it to Him and let Him take care of it.

gentle

gentle

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: gentle ]</small>

sufdb
Here are the points I wanted to address (below) ....I'm sorry if you feel attacked... I just have my likes and dislikes just as anyone does.. I dislike intellectual bullies...people that try and speak over other peoples heads...
It's like speaking fluid French to someone who only understands a few words. It's just rude..to me if you can speak a language they DO TOTALLY understand...IMHO..

So when I speak to people that have less a vocabulary than I do... I try to use the words they use... so not to overpower them by confusing them.... anyone can make a point that way...

ANYWAY... HERE ARE THE POINTS.....

YOU SAID: Even in your own story (posted elsewhere) you indicated feelings were crucial to your decision to continue to pursue your exwife, AFTER SHE MARRIED OM I NEVER PURSUED HER......I NEVER CALLED HER.... BUT DID TALK TO HER WHEN SHE CALLED ME..

and persuade her to divorce her H (as opposed to encourage her to remain married to him, which is the position you argue here), I NEVER TRIED TO PERSUADE HER TO divorce "her husband" (which is a REAL stretch for me to say because God couldn't have blessed their union.... seeing that the minister that married them would never have married them IF he had known that my W was still married to me as they counseled to BE married....BUT... you can't hide from God..) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> BECAUSE I CHOSE TO RESPECT HIS FEELINGS EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T RESPECT MY MARRIAGE... MY 14 YEAR MARRIAGE WHICH HE TRIED TO DESTROY....

that must have required substantial mental gumnastics to fit in your concept divorce is not allowed. BEFORE SHE DIVORCED (she tried for an annulment but the papers were filed wrong... AND if I HAD been involved, which I wouldn't allow myself to they WOULD have been right) ANYWAY BEFORE THE D WE COUNSELED WITH AN ELDER FROM HER/THEIR CHURCH (he started going in the 11th hour to use God against her...he was pretty much an atheist before that )AND FROM MINE... AT THE SAME TIME.... AND AFTER A LONG LONG MEETING IT WAS AGREED THAT RE-UNITING OUR MARRIAGE (the real Marriage) WOULD GLORIFY GOD (and everything we do should glorify God) WHILE THE UNION THEY WERE IN WOULD GLORIFY AFFAIRS.... DECEIT....DESTRUCTION OF FAMILY.....LIES....HATE.... AND ALL THE THINGS satan STANDS FOR NOT WHAT GOD STANDS FOR....

It also violates God's specific admonition one cannot return to a previous mate after marrying another. THIS IS OLD TESTAMENT AND AGAIN... I'M SURE DOESN'T APPLY TO AFFAIRS THAT CAUSE DIVORCE

Maybe your exwifw (then) was to love this man, through that restore him, blah blah blah, and you interferred with that. satan WAS STEERING THE BOAT....AND YES.. SHE WAS TO LOVE THIS MAN UNTIL THEIR AFFAIR SERVED satan's GOAL OF DESTROYING MY FAMILY.. THEN HIS LAUGHTER WAS DEAFENING

I suspect you "justify" this by looking at all the "good" it brought into your life. I mention your circumstances because you brought your life into this discussion, and your behaviour was inconsistent with what you advocate. I DIDN'T NEED TO "JUSTIFY" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> SHE WAS/IS MY WIFE AND JUST BECAUSE THEY LIED TO MARRY DIDN'T MAKE IT REAL....THEIR MARRIAGE WAS A LIE TO GOD, TO ME, TO BOTH OF THEM (deep down in the heart even OM knows this) AND ACTUALLY IS TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I "ADVOCATE" I STOOD FOR OUR MARRIAGE...THE ONE BEFORE GOD... (not hiding from him)

But it (your life) does support my position that marriage is about feelings and decisions, and that divorce is an integral part of a successful marital paradigm. DIVORCE IS A PART OF LIFE.... BUT SO IS MURDER....DO I THINK THAT ONE SHOULD NEVER DIVORCE?...WELL.... NOT REALLY....GOD HATES DIVORCE... SO WE SHOULD... AND THE "MINDSET" OF "DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION" SHOULD BE BUILT INTO EVERY MARRIAGE IN THE BEGINNING OTHERWISE... WHY TRY?

satan WILL PREVAIL IN THE MARRIAGES that don't stand on this principal. WHAT CAN KEEP IT TOGETHER FOREVER? ONCE THE ROAD GETS BUMPY.. JUST DIVORCE...
DIVORCE WAS A REALLY FROWNED APON IN MY PARENTS DAY.....HENCE.... D RATES WERE MUCH LOWER... NOW.... IF IT FEELS GOOD GET MARRIED... IF IT FEELS BETTER (OR when you have to do ANY work at all in the marriage or any compromising...) DIVORCE!! SO WHAT... THE KIDS WILL BE BETTER OFF... BETTER TO D THAN HAVE THEM SEE US FIGHT ALL THE TIME....

(oh.. don't teach them that if you are unselfish and work at the marriage and lean on God to help....whatever... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

How about this.... IF A PERSON SETS HIS MIND THAT SOMETHING CAN'T BE DONE... DOESN'T HIS MIND GIVE HIM OTHER ALTERNATIVES.....??? ONE NOT BEING "WHAT CAN'T BE DONE".. divorce is forgiven through the blood of Christ that cleanses us of ALL SINS.. WE ALL SIN... GOD SEES DIVORCE AS ANOTHER SIN... BUT HE HATES IT BECAUSE IT DESTROYS SO MANY LIVES (the very reason satan loves it so...) I am not faulting you, I think you did the right thing, and I am happy your life was restored in a healthy way. THANK YOU AND I WISH YOU MANY BLESSINGS IN YOUR LIFE (of which I know nothing of BTW) MAY GOD BLESS YOU... One could argue that divorce improved your life twice over. Once by generating a crisis sufficient to get your and wifes attention focused where it needed to be...and second by allowing you to remarry.
SAD BUT TRUE... IN A VERY VERY ABSTRACT WAY.. THE AFFAIR WAS VERY GOOD FOR OUR MARRIAGE..I JUST WOULDN'T ADVISE IT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> AS THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES THAT WERE EXTREMELY HARD TO ENDURE....TO THIS DAY .....

Gentle is very gentle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Frank, I would also just try not to let it get to you. You need to concentrate on your marriage. Satan could use something like this to cause you to be angry. I know that times I've gotten angry on message boards, I have stayed angry and even found myself being rude, even when off the board. Maybe you and your wife should pray (maybe you already are?) about how God wants to use your testimony. I think in time, you probably will not want to be in here. Well, if it takes away at all from your marriage (away from time with wife or makes you irritable, etc) then I'd say, leave and don't look back. If you feel God maybe wants you to be here to encourage others with your testimony, well, that might be so. Pray about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The only thing I want to address that sufb said was he (she??) said, "Science and Christianity must arrive at the same conclusions" but that's not really true because science says we evolved from apes; Christianity says we were created by God. Etc.

Anyways, I do not know anything about you Sufb. It does sound to me like you are philosophizing alot and not everything is Biblical that you are saying, but obviously, people have differing opinions on things and when it comes to opinions, sometimes we can be really strong about our opinions and really forceful with opposting opinions. I know I can be.

Whatever your situation is and for whatever reason you are here posting, I hope and pray that God is healing you and making His presence known in your life. Obviously, all of us who've been through divorce need God's healing for our brokeness. I hope and pray that He gives you peace and wisdom for the things you face in your life.

I truly hope that you and Frank will be able to maybe not even address each other since it is stirring you both up. You just don't need this in your lives, not right now. Also, I don't think comments like wifty's are necessary or good for anyone. I didn't think Frank sounded the way wifty said he did and I thought those comments were mean-spirited. We really should try to be as edifying as we possibly can. I don't always speak in love either, so this is a good reminder to me too!

Just my 2 cents...

God bless.

P.S. Pray for your enemies (or anyone you don't get along with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Prayer quiets our hearts, puts things into perspective, and also God hears our prayers and helps us in so many ways. I would encourage you both instead of refuting each other, pray for each other. Maybe it will help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't much care for bullies myself frank, if you are a Christian (asd you profess), you might find the verse about motes in ones eye relevant at this point. I already told you I am done when a discussion becomes a personal conflict, you have made your animus clear, and I find your intellectual positions hypocritical. Those are your problems (have nothing to do with me), and until corrected I see no point in further discussion of these issues. It does make me wonder though about why you had marital problems, You are very aggressive and self-serving (as opposed to civil and open-minded), maybe I was "placed" in your path to get your attention focused back where it should be. Good luck, in your life, and please do not post anymore to me.

btw you did encourage, and persuade your exwife because you would not have NC with her, she had no business calling you, and talking about her feelings to you, that is an affair...true?, you had an emotional affair with your exwife behind her H back. You also had no business going to the hospital, it was not your place. Your only option (according to the beliefs you profess) was to have NC with her until she got out of her circumstances herself, and appeared on your doorstep, and then you still would have had to deal with clear Scripture forbidding remarriage if a spouse has divorced you and married another. By suggesting your actions were "ok" because she did not have a real marriage, you are essentially saying you have the right to decide when marriage has occured or not....the very principle I espouse. I assume she made vows to her new H, but somehow you managed to say "those" vows don't count....well plenty here argue simply uttering vows means they count. You also chose "advisors" who told you what you wanted to hear, just like anyone else seeking permission to do what they want.

However, I personally think what you did was ok. Just don't be a hypocrtical in an "intellectual" discussion about the principles of marriage and not be called on it. You did the same thing everyone does...you pursued what you wanted, using the tactics that suited you, and justifying your behaviour by the outcome.

<small>[ August 06, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

lovemyex...science does NOT say we evolved from apes. It does not know where we come from. The Bible also clearly is evolutionarily accurate, given it is not a "textbook". But the statement I made was more directed to human behaviour, motivation, choices of action etc. You must keep in mind we cannot live in 2 competeing realities, science and relgion (if the religion is correct) must be congruent...we cannot exist with 2 independent sets of rules governing our existence.

For example we know and experience gravity, any relgion that professed in some manner, gravity does not exist, would have to be wrong. Likewise religion (Christianity) has many "rules" about behaviour, for example murder is wrong. Well maybe it is, maybe it is not, we do murder in wars, self-defense, etc. However, if one approaches this issue from a secular standpoint, you can establish pretty conclusively murder is not ok (even if one could do so with absolutely no reprisal, and great benefit). That is a congruency. Marriage (and Christian interpretation) is subject to the same standards. Christian interpretation must make psychological sense as well (since God created us as psychological beings, not robots), otherwise it simply becomes legalistic dogma, and no different than anything done dogmatically....be it witch hunts, inquisitions, or terrorism etc.

No human being has the "perfect" knowledge to explain God's will without room for error. Those who claim marriage is an absolute fail because it does not meet many standards. I have yet to find anyone who actually believes that when pressed, there are always exceptions when questioned closely about applying that principle to any marriage. The thing about a principle is it either is true ALL the time, or it is not a principle, it is a choice. For example, gravity is not a choice, jump off a cliff you will always experience the consequences. Since marital absolutism is NOT a principle, then saying God requires everyone to stay in every marriage is an innappropriate argument or reason to stay married.... There has to be additional criteria, and IMO that means we are all empowered to assess the nature of our relationship, discern God's will for us (which could be stay or go), and act accordingly.

Thank-you for your good wishes. btw I am not stirred up, I seek truth about difficult subjects (not just marriage) by choice for my own (and others) growth/understanding. Frank's responses are typical when ones beliefs are challenged, I am used to it. I don't think he means me any particular illwill, he just needs to figure out why making personal comments about someone he disagrees with is ok, and that was wifty's point as well. If one cannot keep their emotional responses under control, they will have a difficult time with controversial subjects. Believe it or not, anything can be discussed, there is no need or excuse for getting upset by a discussion itself, it is only through such efforts one can actually find out for sure whether your choices make sense or not in life. Which is why debates about abortion, homosexuality, welfare/liberalism, marriage, right to die, etc. rage on. They are highly emotionally charged (and important) subjects, which people make personal the moment they find themselves unable to logically defend their position, or reach an impasse on underlying definitions, assumptions. I value such efforts, but find it a waste of time once it becomes personal...so I cease with that individual, just a pragmatic decison, no hurt feelings, or anger at all. I suspect frank does not make belittling comments to people (like he has me) who agree with him.

<small>[ August 06, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufbd,

I just got here, and it's amazing how much I agree with you.

Psychology means "soul therapy". It cannot do much for the unbeliever except possibly reveal
and lead one to repentance and to Christ, any other way is not lasting growth.
Psychology does much for one who's soul is saved.
We are spirit, soul, and body. Each part has to be taken care of.

Blessings, sent with Love, Ladysheep

I really, really wish sufb and ladysheep would "lay off" (said as politely as possible & talking about sufb's comments to Frank. I haven't even read the things you wrote to me yet.). I see no good that your comments are doing. Sufb, your comments were extremely rude and sounded as if you only want to provoke. Ladysheep said she agrees, and it's wierd because I see you both posting in another post in here. You are two different people, right? You never can tell in forums, but I do not understand your motives for saying the things you have said. What benefit is it serving??????

To the moderator:

I am new here and just wondering what is and is not allowed. It is very disconcerting to see someone saying the things below. Are the posts moderated or is it more of a "anything goes" approach. I personally thought the below comments were very rude and uncalled for. Also, a quick question: has marriage builders ever thought of adding a separate thread for those desiring reconciliation? There are several in here in that category but there is alot of negative said when they (myself included) talk about it. Thanks alot!

Sufb says to Frank:

"if you are a Christian (asd you profess)"

"I find your intellectual positions hypocritical."

"Those are your problems (have nothing to do with me)"

"It does make me wonder though about why you had marital problems, You are very aggressive and self-serving (as opposed to civil and open-minded), maybe I was "placed" in your path to get your attention focused back where it should be."

"you had an emotional affair with your exwife behind her H back."

"You also had no business going to the hospital, it was not your place."

"Just don't be a hypocrtical in an "intellectual" discussion about the principles of marriage and not be called on it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong>To the moderator:

I am new here and just wondering what is and is not allowed. It is very disconcerting to see someone saying the things below. Are the posts moderated or is it more of a "anything goes" approach. I personally thought the below comments were very rude and uncalled for. Also, a quick question: has marriage builders ever thought of adding a separate thread for those desiring reconciliation? There are several in here in that category but there is alot of negative said when they (myself included) talk about it. Thanks alot!

Sufb says to Frank:

"if you are a Christian (asd you profess)"

"I find your intellectual positions hypocritical."

"Those are your problems (have nothing to do with me)"

"It does make me wonder though about why you had marital problems, You are very aggressive and self-serving (as opposed to civil and open-minded), maybe I was "placed" in your path to get your attention focused back where it should be."

"you had an emotional affair with your exwife behind her H back."

"You also had no business going to the hospital, it was not your place."

"Just don't be a hypocrtical in an "intellectual" discussion about the principles of marriage and not be called on it."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lovemyex, if you find this discussion distressful, why are you participateing in it. These are volatile issues, and evoke much emotion, but that does not make it ok to make the argument personal. I have no idea why you made this post, it has nothing to do with the issues. Nor is their anything rude or inappropriate about holding people accountable for the logic of their positions. I remind you that both you and frank turned this into a relgious debate, as well as about reconcilliation. The original poster was simply commenting on how advice is given, and I responded to just that. Frank introduced his own story as "proof" of a personal agenda he promotes, in so doing he made it a subject of debate. His actions are at odds with what he professes to believe, and that is ok, he can live however he wants (as can you), but if you join in a debate about these subjects you have to make sense (meaning be logically consistent), otherwise don't debate. I also did say on a personal note to frank that I agreed with the actions he took. As for the things you referred to in this post, none of them are even remotely rude. They meet all standards of civililty, and arose from franks own comments/positions.

It seems you seek not discussion, but a support board, or a support thread, rather than a discussion to help one find their way through these difficult places. That is fine, but many of us seek to understand why we are in this hard place in life, and our route is through intense analysis, and questioning of everything we thought we knew, or believed in.... and ya know, that is ok too lovemyex. Unfortuneately the 2 types of people mix together in this envirmoment, and both approaches are allowed and encouraged. This leads to conflict sometimes, and IMO is best dealt with by not reading or responding to posters who upset you...rather than complaining about, and mistreating them cuase they make you feel uncomfortable.

I suggest when you feel a need for support, you start a thread and make that clear you want no questioning or debate, but only supportive type responses (and tell people what you want to hear). That will be respected, and you will not be discomfited. As for frank, he is clearly an aggressive individual promoting his agenda, and I suspect is quite capable of taking care of himself. He actively started and continued this debate, I did not seek him out, he sought me out and posted to me specifically. I have every right to respond....don't I?

Good luck in your efforts. I assume you seek only support, so unless you respond to me specifically I will try not to post anything to you that questions the route you have chosen for yourself. It is your life, you are entitled to live it as you please, I just hope you have throughly examined why you do the things you do (that is a general comment that applies to all of us), cause often we have not done a good job of self-introspection...which is one of the main benefits of boards like this, they help us find out what we really believe when we are challenged. These boards have been a great help to me in that regard (being challenged), and others with similar needs, what do you suggest we do...just go away? Not be analytical? Just do what someone else tells us too? (which of course was the whole point of this thread, the inapproriateness of telling someone what do do in marital circumstances). I am one of those people who has to understand why I am doing (or not doing something), THEN it also has to make sense to me. I realized in my life (when crisis arrived), I don't even know what marriage is, what love is, what vows are, what committment is....I had just simply been "programmed" from childhood with a particular set of beliefs. Those beliefs failed me, a little reflection revealed (to me) I didn't even know why I believed the things I did. That started an intense inquiry into all these issues from a behavioural psychology standpoint, as well as a relgious standpoint.

I have to understand the underlying principles, before I can make an informed choice of action (including changing the paradigms I currently held), that is me, and people like me, it is what we do. It is not how everyone orders their life, it takes a lot of effort to make fundamental change. I thought at one time marriage was an absolute, I had no particular reason to think so, it is just how I was raised, and felt good. A hard and impersonal inspection of that paradigm revealed it is not true...that meant I had to change some fundamental behavioural guidelines, it was very very hard to do so, and I still struggle with it. But the alternative, living dishonestly (with myself) is simply unacceptable...so I will continue the struggle, and part of that is offering my thoughts and opinions for comment, good or bad, it helps me avoid rationalizing. I would suggest you might find the same benefit. If all you seek is people supporting and validateing your choices, you will be less able to avoid making self-serving mistakes. IMO one is best served by a mix of input, some supportive, and some challengeing you to question your motives. Ultimately you (everyone) is going to do exactly what they want to do anyways, that is the way humans work.

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Yowzaa!

This was not intended to be a "religious" discussion over the rights/wrongs" of divorce. But we all know how these threads develop a life of their own. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It was simply to guide other "gentle readers" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> to NOT demand someone divorce their "lousy, no-good, loser" (insert additional, negative adjectives here) spouse.

SUFB,

I wrote a long post but decided I'd rather not.

Good luck with your life.

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

To Chris, I thought your reason for starting the thread was good. I agree that people shouldn't tell people to get rid of their blankety-blank-blank spouse.

HI LoveMyEx,
Thanks for coming to my defense...maybe the moderator will help get this board back on track...
It really saddens me that you had to ask the question.. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Has marriage builders ever thought of adding a separate thread for those desiring reconciliation? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what this place WAS all about!!! I wish you had come here when I did a LONG LONG time ago... before "satan" found this place...it was a truly loving place.. you would have fit right in.

We Christians could speak our views and although not all were in agreement religiously.... there was respect.....and Love here...you would have loved it here.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I mean LOOK AT THE HEADING OF THIS THREAD!! This too is sad....Chris was here then and I'm guessing started this thread in Memory of the REAL MB....

Don't get me wrong... satan sent people like Sufb on occasion to cloud our thinking and to make us angry and distracted from our goal.... but it was more like an occasional thing... and although some people got tuff (of course I did) most drove them away with very kind words.....
I think that's why there are/were more success stories from that time than in recent times....because of the distractions that satan sends here now.

Lostva...a GREAT success story and a life long friend I met here was driven away (mostly but not completely she's too tough for that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) by people like Sufb when she came back to encourage people with her story....they just flamed her like sufdb is flaming me...and that is a shame.... if you get a chance look up some of her threads. She is truly a beautiful soul I love her so much (Before you run with THAT comment sufb LIKE A SISTER...LIKE A SISTER!!!! ) look up her threads.. you won't be sorry..

God Bless you and may God's mighty hand be on your Marriage...I'll continue to pray for you....

sufdb
NOW for you.... You said we shouldn't post about each other and I didn't.... I'm sure you enjoyed "Re-quoting" LoveMy Ex quoting YOU just so you could get those words out ONE MORE TIME...


Let me make one thing perfectly clear... I have no respect for anything you say........at all WHY? Because I see you basically as a coward that hides behind your two or three member names (from what I read) and your "Search for the Truth" smoke screen.

Never having the courage or courtesy to post YOUR story and either accept some advice yourself or "in so doing make it a subject of debate" you don't have the courage for that do you?
No, instead.... you lurk and at any opportunity.. PONCE and STOMP on ANY positive story or comment or phrase in the name of YOUR search for the truth....
When in fact....(to quote a famous line..)
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH... or... you would tell your story.....there's some TRUTH for you...


You said.... maybe I was "placed" in your path to get your attention focused back where it should be."
In reality.. you and I know why people like you are here.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> to redirect our focus from what we really should be talking about...and to dump on any hope or faith we have left in our marriages again... in YOUR SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH....or to redirect YOUR own pain....
Or maybe to frustrate people like me who try and come back and give something back to the wonderful people here.....some hope and PROOF that God DOES RESTORE MARRIAGES AFFECTED BY INFIDELITY....

Yes I'm aggressive... (my W says I'm more like Peter) and for people like me your diversion is like a "Flea on a dog"
As much as you tried to cheapen the MIRACLE God sent to our marriage by trying to shoot holes in it by saying things like:

"you had an emotional affair with your exwife behind her H back.""You also had no business going to the hospital, it was not your place.""Just don't be a hypocrtical in an "intellectual" discussion about the principles of marriage and not be called on it." SMOKE.......SMOKE........and SMOKE........
You have NO idea WHAT I SAID or WHAT I DID... and not going to the hospital because it's not my "place" ? What a foolish statement....I mean really...

What makes me angry... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> is the people here that aren't as strong at the moment (I was a wreck through most of this) taking ANYTHING from what you say....and smashing their hope and GODS GLORY....for the sake of YOUR TRUTH.... and I'm self serving.....?????

I see RIGHT THROUGH YOU... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and I will say "GET BEHIND ME SATAN" and hopefully God will flick you off this board like that flea.....
My Vote.... Be gone.... or be real I will pray for you too.... FRANK..... I'll be around....

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: PLEASE HELP ]</small>