Chris,
Going back to your original question, yes the way you put it perhaps it is a double standard. I for one didn't date for almost 1 year after the divorce because I wanted to heal before I even thought about getting into another relationship.

The difference is that the WS cheated while still living in the home and sharing their life with the BS. They do it by sneaking around and hurting everyone involved.

The BS who dates before the divorce is final is not doing any of those things. They are right or wrong just trying to rebuild their lives the best way they can.

I myself feel that it depends on the circumstances of the divorce. the length of time it has taken to obtain the divorce, children ect. I can't see where one can generalize this topic.

Jill

Jill,

[safe discussion mode on] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I myself feel that it depends on the circumstances of the divorce. the length of time it has taken to obtain the divorce, children ect.
So, in your view, when would it be “acceptable” to date while still married? Under what circumstances (such as what you listed above)

I can't see where one can generalize this topic.
Because?

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I might regret posting... it's a little volitile in here. Personally, the only comment I want to really make is what was said about a woman who meets "ALL" your needs and about someone "PERFECT" for you. Personally, I don't believe anyone can meet "all" your needs but God and that is a VERY high expectation to put on anyone that can only last so long. Secondly, no one is "perfect" and many marriages fail because people expect both perfection and someone to meet all their needs. We need to be realistic about people, relationships, and marriage. I, for one, haven't even considered dating and it's been almost a year since my divorce. I am NOWHERE close to even wanting to date! I don't have a single fear though about "missing" someone. I fully trust the Lord that He won't let me "miss" someone if there is another "someone" for me, which personally I would like to be content without a someone. I don't want to hinge my happiness on another person.

Chris, as to your question, I already shared my beliefs on the other thread, but no, I do not think it is okay in the eyes of God to date before you are divorced.

Like I said before, I think alot of people jump immediately into new relationships to help them get over the pain of the divorce. They believe they've found their "soulmate" and the "perfect" person, but for how long?? People need to deal with whatever it was in their first marriage that caused problems. It rarely ever is just one person's "fault." Also, I think that during and after a divorce, people are VERY emotionally vulnerable and "blinded" in a way. They are not strong in many ways. It is very risky to go immediately into a new relationship. It is like riding a bike, crashing and having a broken leg, and then riding a new bike right away even though the leg has not healed. It takes time to heal and grow, etc.

Well, I've said more than I care to say.

But even if a spouse cheats, that does not justify your "cheating." It is just like a child who steals something because someone else stole something. The act is still wrong regardless of the pain you are in or regardless of it the whole entire world was doing it. Didn't God wipe out the whole world except Noah because ALL of them were sinning? Obeying God's Word is not popular... never has been... people don't want to believe and satan deceives them into thinking that God doesn't really "mean it." Just like Eve. He said, "Oh, Eve, God didn't really mean you couldn't eat the fruit." And he showed her how "it won't hurt," etc.

Whether people believe or not, whether they obey or not, God's Word stands and it is truth and it cannot be nullified by the justifications of people. God tells us to obey the law. That piece of "paper" is the law that says you are STILL married. If the law says you are married, then you are married, no "ifs," "ands," or "buts."

Think of it this way. Let's say you marry your girlfriend before your divorce is final. What will the law call you? A polygamist!!

I think I just started a psuedo simalar thread--oops. My point will go well in here, too I think:
*pulls up soap box and hops on in attempt to make peace in hostile atmosphere--ducks tomatos*

We are all in differant stages of life and differant stages of healing. You cannot expect people in completely differant places to think the same way. We are all dealing with our situations the best way we know how--and for most of us, we've never been here before so it's new grounds. People at difft. ages have COMPLETLY differant perspectives on life, and completly differant things that are important to them- it is all part of life, and it doesn't mean older people are right about everything-it only means they are at a place the rest of us haven't been to yet, while they have been where we are. Like it or not, no one is going to adopt anyone else's opinion on this matter just because you argue enough. Everyone has an opinion based on their own, personal life experiences and their own personal beliefs about what God does and does not accept (if they believe in God at all). Each person is going to get to tomorrow based on their opinions--nobody else's--and they will survive whether you do or not. We should accept simple truths like that and try to learn what we can from other people's experiences and interpretations--not just tell them they are wrong because we don't agree. Until we die and our maker explains it all to us, you really can't be 100% certain at any rate.

*hops off soap box*

As for dating before divorce decree is final--
I have to say, unless you just run out while still w/ your spouse or day/weeks after seperating.. if you 1.give the spouse ample time to come back or talk or something and all you get is divorce papers 2.realize that you were disrespected and unloved in the relationship and there is no chance for reconciliation based on the years of compounded lies and betrayals anbd find you are happier alone (but have sense to know when you cannot afford to be legally done with them yet)3.know they have moved on or could care less about you -- then there is no reason for you not to go our for some casual dating (though I think it should be after at least 6mths and after papers have been filed...and I also don't think it should be sexual).

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Epiph0ny ]</small>

Thankyou EpiphOny,
You just said what I was going to say. I guess I never thought about the sexual aspect and going back and rereading threads here nobody said anything about having a sexual relationship with the girlfrend-boyfriend. Perhaps to many here are just jumping to conclusions!!

LoveMyEx........."meeting all the needs" and "perfect" was a bit of an exxageration, what I really meant is that she is more suited to me. We get along great and fill each others needs more than our prior relationship. Our personalities compliment each other and do not clash. Absolutely NOONE in my family, or my friends were upset, or suprised my 1st marriage would not last. My EX had a horrible attitude and treated my entire family like dirt. That being said.......I STILL TRIED TO KEEP THE MARRIAGE TOGETHER.......because I know god hates divorce as do I. After my remarriage, I realize my divorce was for the best, my prior household was volatile and there is no telling what may have happened if we would not have parted. Then people wonder why there is domestic violence and spouses end up killing each other. Oil and Water do not mix.

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: StartinOver ]</small>

As for dating before divorce decree is final--
I have to say, unless you just run out while still w/ your spouse or day/weeks after seperating.. if you 1.give the spouse ample time to come back or talk or something and all you get is divorce papers 2.realize that you were disrespected and unloved in the relationship and there is no chance for reconciliation based on the years of compounded lies and betrayals anbd find you are happier alone (but have sense to know when you cannot afford to be legally done with them yet)3.know they have moved on or could care less about you -- then there is no reason for you not to go our for some casual dating
There are many ws that feel this way prior to an affair. They have tried for years to get their spouse to be a "partner" in the marriage. Why is it wrong for them to "date".

As far as #2 above, it's okay to stay married for money?

This thread you said,
My EX turned our marriage into a piece of paper when she chose the other route. YES, that is what I think it is.....a piece of paper.

from the other thread,
If a person leaves thier spouse, lives with them, has multiple partners, doenst want to reconcile with thier spouse.....there is NO MARRIAGE. How can it be a marriage?
Because, according to you, a piece of paper is a marriage and the paper is still there.

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Everyone have a great weekend! Im off to eat lunch with my wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Chrisca123,
You have posted on this before and while I wholeheartedly agree with you, i think you are beating a dead horse. Some people just are not going to get it. StartinOver is one of them. See he is confused. I don't understand why a BS would ever think they could date before the divorce was final in light of all that happened, but I guess I just don't ever want to be thought of as a WS. I started dealing with my situation with integrity, and I wanted to finish it with integrity.
Again I appreciate your efforts but I just don't think it is getting through sometimes and I think you are frustrating yourself.

adgirl48...............Im confused???? I did what I did......I married whom I fell in love with.....look at your signature and YOU tell me who is confused. Look at your storyline and you tell me who is confused. Hahahahahaha......Im out. Going to lunch with my wife.

You can disagree without being rude. (or most can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

My point of this thread was to not "threadjack" someone elses.

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Why do you ask this chris? Academic curiosity, or application in your own life?

It appears at first blush you have asked an eye of beholder question (what is beauty, what is pornograhy, when does life begin...etc.). And it can me answered in that sense, it is okay to "date" when one says it is (for themself), afterall they are the one who will experience the consequences...true? In that case "discussion" only serves to help one uncover their own emotional state so they can act in congruence with who they are (thereby reducing the debilitation of anxiety/stress/angst)....and their will be no definitive universal answer. For the most part that is as far as one will get with this question....however, I do think there is a definitive answer underlying the personal choice (just as their is an underlying truth re beauty that applies to all human beings...but that is another discussion, ditto porn, abortion, and ALL issues).

So I will try to convey what I percieve to be the underlying principles you seek, you may concur or not. I will also address the semantic confusion endemic to such questions.

c...If it's okay to "date" while married because your spouse left and there is nothing left of the marriage except the paper, then why get married at all?

sufdb..

1. Define ok. Spiritually, medically, psychologically, culturally, legally...what do you mean by ok, what are the assumptions and consequences? Depending on how you define ok, your answer will follow, and sometimes it will be yes, sometimes no....if we view this situationally, and by outcome (which is what "okay" implies). Because of this you will have much contention as people are essentially debateing their own definition of ok.

2. You also need to define married. It is either a legal contract (ie a piece of paper)....or it is a psychological condition of mutual choice to live in a particular manner. It cannot be both. I think most of us would agree marriage is #2, with #1 simply the legal establishment of the condition within the social order. Are you ok with this?

3. I assume date means any interaction with the opposite gender that does not exclude the potential for a mating relationship? As opposed to "dating" just to get out of the house and interact with folks.

c...My "argument" is that until a divorce is final, then don't date.

sufdb...That is not an argument (which requires supporting proof), it is a statement, a rule. As such it cannot be refuted...But it does not have to be followed either.

c...If a spouse feels a marriage is over and goes out and "dates", why is it wrong?
If the bs then goes out and dates, it's okay?

sufdb...Unclear, are you refering to affairs? If so the wrong can be demonstrated in terms of consequences, most rights and wrongs are determined by consequences actually...and one can make essentially an air-tight case why affairs are "wrong" strategies. I am not sure what you meant by bs dating...

chris...If you want to date, then get a divorce.

sufdb...I agree, isn't that what we are discussing, when are you actually divorced (in terms of free to date)?

There are people who do date and have no intention of divorceing. IMO that is wrong, by any standard one cares to apply. You seem to be asking more about when is one free to date, which requires a through understanding and agreement about when is one married or divorced.

I am not going to write a treatsie here, so will just state the barest outline of my position on this issue.

1. Marriage is not determined by a piece of paper (neither is divorce for that matter).

2. The condition of intimacy/synergy (in a monagmous, heterosexual paradigm) we seek and refer to by the term marriage requires certain conditions be met....that means many people who think they are married are in fact....not....and less common, but some folks who think they are divorced...are not also.

3. Marriage is a completely voluntary, freewill choice, it cannot be maintained or instigated by external constraints (shotgun weddings, arranged weddings, external coercion/manipulations..ie goldiggers, and so forth). It requires proper and informed intent, coupled with absolutely no coercion of any kind (either imposed, or self-impopsed). This intent must be in place all the time, the marriage ends immediately upon cessation of this intent.

4. Marriage is two tier, the actual marriage is an emotional/psychological condition referred to in #3...but it also has a socio/econimic component which is manifested by the "piece of paper". The rightness or wrongness of dating is in the realm of #3, and has nothing to do with #4. It is IMO the lack of understanding re this dual nature of marriage that leads to arguments like the ones in this thread. For those who disagree consider this..... if you were the only two people present (say shipwrecked on a desert island for a lifetime), would #3 or #4 define marriage? Clearly #4 is not required, hence it has nothing to do with marriage, and is therefore irrelevant to dating. In the primal sense you are married when you choose to be, and not married (divorced) when you choose not to be. So the answer chris, is it is okay to date when you ACCURATELY" assess your intent re the individual you are attemting marriage with....folks in affairs, or when seperated (or even divorvced) are often quite confused about this, and therefore it is not "okay" for them to date.

Many folks find introspection, self-analysis, and the courage of their convictions difficult to apply, so they default to external rules, that feels "safer"....ie it is not ok to date until the judge says so. Personally I am not one to give over self-determination to someone else, I think that is the point starting over was trying to make (but he did a terrible job of making it, and let his nose get out of joint as well...).

One can spend a fair amount of time fleshing out all the whys and wherefores of my position, perhaps you can read between the lines, but if you want clarification ask a specific question. I have purposefully left out the spiritual arguments (just leads to a whole nother area of conflict starting with whether God even exists, but suffice to say I feel comfortable the principles apply spiritually as well).

Chris- in my post (pg2) I ment for ALL those conditions to be in place, and that included a divorce petition. Therefore I don't think I am condoning affairs.
As for staying married for money...I worded it wrong, I suppose. I was trying to say that if the only reason divorce papers are not final is because in the process of settlement and/or mediation, you come to an agreement with your x to remain legally married for a specified period of time-though seperated- for some financial reason (ie: health, car insurance) until the spouse is able to afford their own way (making this a legal seperation agreement with a definate condition of divorce)--then that, compiled with my other conditions, makes non-sexual (ok to kiss) dating perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StartinOver:
<strong>adgirl48...............Im confused???? I did what I did......I married whom I fell in love with.....look at your signature and YOU tell me who is confused. Look at your storyline and you tell me who is confused. Hahahahahaha......Im out. Going to lunch with my wife.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Startinover I just wondered, do you read what you write? Do you also read the graemlins and what they mean? Chris wrote a post to you and you simply wrote back :
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
This is the graemlin for confused. Sweetie, I have read my life, I know how ugly it is, I am simply doing the best I can right now to move forward, and I feel pretty confident I can do that with myself, God and someday a man who truly loves me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>You can disagree without being rude. (or most can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

My point of this thread was to not "threadjack" someone elses.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh certainly, I hope you don't think I was rude. I was just trying to say that I understand your frustrations.

I have answered Chris's question as best I could, but I will try to simplify it even further.

I feel it is OK to date, once the marriage vows have been broken and both parties feel a divorce is imminant WITHOUT any reconciliation.

That is just how I feel. IMHO.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh certainly, I hope you don't think I was rude. I was just trying to say that I understand your frustrations.
No, SO was being rude.

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Why do you ask this chris? Academic curiosity, or application in your own life?
I wasn’t asking for ME but to get others viewpoints on why they seem to think it’s okay.
I don’t think it’s “okay”. A few people in these forums not only say it’s “okay” but that it should be done. Somehow “dating” is synonymous with “moving on” and one cannot “move on” unless one dates.

Also, it goes back to what one believes in marriage and why they choose to get married. If marriage is only a piece of paper, why spend $20 on it and then a couple grand on a wedding? Just say “I love you, let’s live together” and spend the money on a trip to the Bahamas instead of a wedding.

1. Define ok. Spiritually, medically, psychologically, culturally, legally...what do you mean by ok,
I mean acceptable to someone for any reason.
- Most (mainstream) religions do not accept it.
- Medically?
- Psychologically is probably a big one. If one has not dealt with the previous relationship, then it’s time for Jung, Frued and Maslow (and others) to roll over and have a ball proving their theories and studies.
- Culturally it is frowned upon by society but very much accepted by individuals as a whole. (Get my meaning here?)
- Legally it is discouraged but not much is ever done about it.

2. You also need to define married. It is either a legal contract (ie a piece of paper)....or it is a psychological condition of mutual choice to live in a particular manner. It cannot be both. I think most of us would agree marriage is #2, with #1 simply the legal establishment of the condition within the social order. Are you ok with this?
Very much so. But if you read my previous posts here, you see why I ask the question.

3. I assume date means any interaction with the opposite gender that does not exclude the potential for a mating relationship?
How about that it specifically includes a potential for a “mating relationship”?

As opposed to "dating" just to get out of the house and interact with folks.
Then I personally would not call it dating. I would call it going out with some friends.

c...My "argument" is that until a divorce is final, then don't date..
sufdb...That is not an argument (which requires supporting proof), it is a statement, a rule. As such it cannot be refuted...But it does not have to be followed either.
Semantics, shemantics... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But you are correct, it’s not an “argument

[b]c...If a spouse feels a marriage is over and goes out and "dates", why is it wrong?
If the bs then goes out and dates, it's okay?

sufdb...Unclear, are you refering to affairs?
Yes. A (ws) spouse feels the marriage is over and has worked many years trying to get the other involved and they don’t get involved”. The end up in a relationship and it’s called an affair.
But, once this is done, then the other spouse (bs) can do the exact same and it’s NOT an affair.

It’s as if ones own rules are changed depending on who they are applied to. ???

I am not sure what you meant by bs dating...
See above.

chris...If you want to date, then get a divorce.

sufdb...I agree, isn't that what we are discussing, when are you actually divorced (in terms of free to date)?
Exactly. If you have a belief of what marriage is, you should have some belief of what divorce is. Can the two overlap? I think not.

Personally I am not one to give over self-determination to someone else, I think that is the point starting over was trying to make (but he did a terrible job of making it, and let his nose get out of joint as well...).
I too, think that is his point but he is trying to make it using very poor logic. (no, I’m not Mr. Spock)

I have purposefully left out the spiritual arguments
But as you have probably seen, some try to use whatever they can to “justify” “dating” and when their “argument” (for lack of a better term) is not clear or valid, rather than simply saying, “I want to do it”, they try to back it with nonsensical or unclear examples.

Sometimes people do things they know are wrong. Sometimes people are not sure if it’s right or wrong and still do them. Other times people know it’s wrong and don’t do it. But for one’s own sake, they should try to understand why they make/made certain decisions.