</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:Which is why you should be "serious" (dating for at least 6 months or so with someone before introducing them to your kids.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think (if I ever love again) that'll take years and 100% (whatever it means) awareness that could lead to (GOOD) marriage...


SFDB - conforting thinking... and I think the same, at least try to... hoping my devotion to my son and his healthy growth will somehow compensate family.... heck - he and I are FAMILY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, let's look at from a bit different angle:
my both parents grew up with no father (WWII victims) - great people! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...lots of kids grow up without a mother or father due to death or extreme sickness. I have read about attachment problems because of this, but the research on children of divorces explains that the main difference is control.
Death is beyond our control. But when two parents make a decision without letting the children somehow play a role in that decision, then here is this huge, life altering change that children are basically forced to accept without having a say. That's very different than death. I'm not saying that children should have a say in whether or not the divorce happens, but rather that the fact that they don't have a say does effect their perceptions of the separation.
So, it's not the same as losing a parent to death. The family is split. The emotional attachments are split. The child lives two separate lives to the extent that his/her parents do. If one parent is completely out of the picture, the children still deal with this lack of control over their life and are forced to cope with whatever reasoning they can to explain why their parent do not want to be a part of their life. Not the same as death at all.

My mom did not date around. She had serious long-term relationships with men (marrying several times). There were no short-lived relationships that I know of.

Don't get me wrong folks, I have never thought my parents should have stayed together. I wish they had never met. It was right for them to get a divorce. Unfortunately, neither of them were educated enough or prepared to deal with the emotional problems that we children went through. Yes, we've all been to counseling, but the parenting was too fragile and done separately. No amount of counseling could have reversed the effects of how my parents handled their divorce. Now, counseling can work on that...but not while it was happening.

Smile

<small>[ October 28, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

If children bond in infancy, than there will be no detrimental affect from the D on my girls, as their father spent very little time with them. They would have bonded more with their grandmother.
I am certain I made the correct choice in D'g, as much for their sake as for mine. They are no longer subjected to the emotional abuse they witnessed and mimicked. And I was guilty of AO & DJ's but without the stress, I find that I am happy, while X still is angry. Go figure.

I am still searching for a counselor for my girls, while X refuses to do anything about their emotional health or read any books on D's impact on children and how to minimize it.

I strongly suggest Rainbows classes for the emotional health of our children of Divorce. www.rainbows.org

If children bond in infancy, than there will be no detrimental affect from the D on my girls, as their father spent very little time with them.
What? This statement doesn’t make sense.

If children bond, then it will have a detrimental affect on them when the parent bonded with is no longer around.

Also, to say there will be “no detrimental affect” is probably not correct. It could be there will be more positives than negatives, but that doesn’t mean there are no negatives.

<small>[ October 28, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

hi. i'm new here and haven't posted any questions or comments yet. i will....but i just haven't gotten to it yet. i don't know where to start!!
anyway, to put in my two cents to this topic...my parents were divorced when i was about 5. i'm glad they divorced. if they would have stayed together i would have had a terrible childhood, i have no doubt. so i just guess it depends on the child...depends on the parents....depends on lots of different circumstances.
i do know though, that currently i am in a not so happy marriage and it keeps going through my head how bad this is for my 2 year old son...to see his parents live together like this. it CAN'T be good for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yeah this topic can get very heated!

In my case, my children weren't physically abused by their father (yet), but they were verbally abused. In some ways they are better off since we've divorced and I've remarried. Their father didn't take any interest in the boys when he lived here and shows even less interest now that he's been out of the house for almost 4 years. My oldest has spent 2 nights with him this year. (He's 14) and my younger 2 (11 and 6) haven't spoken to him in almost a year. They haven't spent any time with him in 1.5 years. (Oh and he lives 10 minutes away from us)

Their step-father, on the other hand, is very involved in their lives. He attends school functions, sporting events and we take them on vacations. He's interested in every aspect of their lives. (He also has 2 sons of his own).

My oldest was 10 when his father left. He's had the most problems. His grades dropped and he became very angry. Slowly that is changing. He adjusting to everything but it's taken some time. My middle one was 7.5 when my ex left. He became somewhat depressed but is doing extremely well now. My youngest was 2.5 when my ex left. He's done great. He doesn't remember his father living with us so he doesn't remember all of the beatings I got and all of the fighting. He looks at his step-father as "Dad".

I guess it just depends on the situation and how you handle it.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Negative effects if you just took my OS someone could write a book on just him. Who he was 4 1/2 yrs ago vs who his today. would he be the same person that is if his father had never had an affaire? NO

My son was once a a religous person, now doesn't believe in God. Would my son have caused me as much heartache over the last few yrs if his father had never had a affair & moved with OW, I don't think so.....Would my son now be on probation.....i doubt it....would my son being go to community college, most likely not.....

but to quote my STBX none of son's problems are his fault

and I can't even begin to tell you the effects on my YS, because I see new ones all the time.....

For the most part, divorce has a very negative affect on kids, but often it doesn't show up until they are adults. But, many adults don't realize that their parent's divorce has affected them (they themselves are prone to divorce, afraid to trust, don't know how to effectively communicate, etc) so they continue to think that their parent's divorce was a good thing when in essence many of their poor life choices stem from their parent's divorce. They simply have not recognized this.

There is an excellent book called "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study" by Judith Wallerstein. It is all about the affects of divorce on children, and the affects that often don't show up until adulthood. It is very interesting. I honestly have yet to read anything saying that divorce is good for a child, and if I did, I'd really have to question it.

Now, I myself had divorced parents, and at the time, I said I was "happy" because my mom and dad fought alot. I didn't even cry over it until I was in about my 3rd year of college. That was the first time it really hit me that I grew up with a father not in the home and the first that I acknowledged that I felt abandoned, even though I understood. It was also the first time I realized that I had various fears and hang-ups that I believed were the result of growing up in a divorced home.

Divorce, in no way, was good for me or my sister. We got the "pleasure" of witnessing our parents hate each other. We were in the middle alot, feeling bad for both of them but not knowing what to do. We watched my mother suffer depression and my father suffer from missing us. We battled guilt when we had to chose who to spend Christmas with and when. And I could share alot more, but that's just some of what a child in a divorced home has to deal with.

There just honestly is not alot of good that comes from divorce. Divorce is simply the "answer" to another very bad situation (abuse or adultery). Neither one is the ideal climate for a child to grow up in. Divorce is simply a "concession" for a bad marriage. No one gets married with the expectations of divorcing, and it's just not a happy event for anyone.

Children are not "doomed" by their parent's divorce, but they likely will have struggles that children from intact, loving families do not have. They will likely face fears of abandonment, fears of trusting, a cynical approach towards marriage, and other things that don't show up til adulthood. But a wise parent can do many things to raise them in a healthy environment, and again, a person doesn't have to be "doomed" by a parent's divorce.

A popular teenage boy in my area recently hung himself because his parents were divorcing. It was very sad. Divorce affects some children differently than others because of the differences in personalities. A sensitive child will probably handle it with more difficulty than a very carefree child. It is wise to know your child's personality and to really dig deep to know their true emotions and how they feel. Often a child will not be honest about their emotions because they know you are hurting and they do not want to make you feel worse (for instance, if they know mom hurt you and that you don't want to talk about her, they will feel scared to say that they miss mom).

Obviously, the BEST situation for a child is to have two loving parents raising him in a home in which he sees an example of a strong, loving marriage. Neither divorce nor abusive marriages are ideal situations and both hurt children.

Also, children usually suffer financially as a result of their parent's divorce. Some of the most impoverished people are single mothers, and honestly, when a father pays his child support, it is for the sake of the children. Also, children often envy their friends whose parents are not divorced, and they struggle feeling like they are "different" in that manner. Their whole sense of stability and family is turned upside down. Some kids become bitter, maybe later. Some don't.

I have a friend who once almost shot his stepmother because he hated her so much. I have another friend who hated his father for divorcing his mother. And I have another friend who has never been close to his father. All three of these friends are adult males whose fathers left their mothers (one who committed adultery), all three fathers were Christians, and all three sons have strained adult relationships with their fathers and have struggled alot. Oh, and their ages are 36, 33, and 29, and all three have never married and all three are very scared that they themselves will one day divorce.

The best thing to do is to pray for your children's futures and to also follow wise guidelines for helping your kids through it (like not bashing the ex-spouse in front of them, not putting them in the middle, etc). Even seek their forgiveness, even if you had valid reasons for the divorce (your spouse's adultery) and no matter what they are verbally saying on the outside, know that all is NOT well on the inside...well, I'm talking here about a child whose parent's recently divorced. Children go through stages just like adults, but unlike adults, do not usually know how to verbally express their feelings of grief, anger, etc. A child cannot process divorce like an adult can.

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

I do not find the fact that "only" 40% of children of divorce suffer serious psychological problems after the divorce, often several years later or even in early adulthood, comforting at all. All six of my children have suffered terribly because of their father's adultery and divorce.

My parents had a rather high conflict marriage, and I am eternally grateful that they stayed together. They had actually been divorced from each other years before I was born, but had almost immediately remarried each other. The one thing I never doubted was that they both loved me with all their hearts, and I always also believed that they loved each other. My mother was heartbroken when my father died, not long before their 40th anniversary.

I don't believe it is always better to stay married and my parents did stay married. My dad was always kind and respectful towards my mom at home. But My dad was a serial cheat which mom found out about 15 yrs into their marriage. He moved out for a while then came back but I think he still ran around just was more distreet. Needless to say there was an air of bitterness in the home I could have done without. But honestly I have no idea how my mom tolerated it at all. I think she felt stuck from staying home and not working so long. This started when I was 14 and they stayed together for 18 more years.

IT was too weird, I don't think they ever were able to get the husband wife thing really back and were more like brother sister eventually and slept in different rooms but got along well. They eventually each got lonely and had bf gf on the side. I can only imagine hw lonely they were for all of those yrs, especailly mom who was a good little catholic girl, she must have been very lonely to take a bf.

It really was convoluted and weird int he end and so dysfunctional I do believe that initially it would have been harder to divorce but long term it probably may have been more stable for us. Even as adult you would like to bring home friends etc to meet your lovely family, not the family full of problems this extreme. It was too in between, too limboish. When they finally got apart it was mre comfortatble to me. Then we could visit my dad and his gf at xmas or mom and her bf. But at that point mom was still very weird about his gf. Dad didn't cheat on her. So mom did not want him in that way but was mad that he ruined their relationship and I understand but whew come on how do the kids deal with this situation?

I also remember feeling as and young adult that I would never get married and have kids because I never wanted to be stuck in a marriage. So that is what their staying together did for me. Made me think of mariage as quicksand.

My sister on the other hand didn't feel this way so every kid is differnet. I think if I waas in this situation I woul send the kids to counseling whether they appear depressed or not. I know I would have never let an adult think I was sad in my teen years, I was too proud.

After only skimming this post I’d like to make a general comment for thought. I find highly ironic that people who come from broken homes and are now themselves divorced or divorcing are stating that it’s better for the children. Think about that statement it absolutely makes no sense. If you came from a broken or dysfunctional home then the environment in which you grew up some impact on your choosing of a mate. And obviously if you divorced or divorcing then you made a bad choice.

I’ll use myself as an example. I grew up in a functioning dysfunctional family and my parents didn’t divorce till after I was married. My X’s parents were each divorced 2 times after she was born. These FOO issue’s had a part in bringing us together and now we are divorced.

I have three wonderful girls and look at the baton that we have handed them to carry in the race of life. With exception (abuse, etc) I do not believe that divorce can be a positive for the children. A child needs a loving happy mother and father whom they spend quality time with PERIOD. In a divorce situation how often does a child get a happy mother and father whom they get to spend plenty of quality time with?

Myself, personally, I’ve only seen this happen once and it’s definitely not in my situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong> If you came from a broken or dysfunctional home then the environment in which you grew up some impact on your choosing of a mate. And obviously if you divorced or divorcing then you made a bad choice.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could not disagree more. Alot of times who you marry......they change over time. My EX used to be sweet and everyone liked her.......once she got her degree, she made everyone feel lesser than she was and turned into a royal biaaatch. How in the world could I have known I made a bad choice??? My wife married a man who was extremely sweet and charming when he was courting her.......only for him to turn into a serial cheater. Noone marries someone whom they believe will be a bad choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong> For the most part, divorce has a very negative affect on kids, but often it doesn't show up until they are adults. But, many adults don't realize that their parent's divorce has affected them (they themselves are prone to divorce, afraid to trust, don't know how to effectively communicate, etc) so they continue to think that their parent's divorce was a good thing when in essence many of their poor life choices stem from their parent's divorce. They simply have not recognized this.

There is an excellent book called "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study" by Judith Wallerstein. It is all about the affects of divorce on children, and the affects that often don't show up until adulthood. It is very interesting. I honestly have yet to read anything saying that divorce is good for a child, and if I did, I'd really have to question it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really have to be careful about applying Wallerstein's research. She studied a small population in one county in California, she had no real control group (supposedly she added a control group at some point, but you can't do prospective research, which is the kind hers was, and add a control group later on; you have to have one from the beginning for it to be a true control group), and her method of study, which let the study group know just what she was looking for, is also faulty. Furthermore, she chose the inital study group from a caseload of people seeking help for marital problems, which means that she was studying people (the parents of the children now grown to adulthood and theeir kids) known to have problems even before they divorced. I'm not saying that her research is valueless, just that it raises questions that need to be studied more carefully and more scientifically before we know anything from it.

And obviously if you divorced or divorcing then you made a bad choice.
Wow. Then the failure of the marriage is SOLELY the fault of your spouse and your relationship skills are perfect. Makes sense to me.

But you married this person, so why didn't you see these problems prior to getting married? After all, your relationship skills are the best. But, if you didn't made a bad choice...

Not trying to justify/comfort (consequences of) my decision to divorce, I&#8217;ll say something about me:
I was raised by both parents, they are still together and still love each other very much.
I&#8217;m their only child.
And &#8211; I feel for most of my life kind of insecure, afraid of abandonment and not pleased with my communication skills in a relationship.
I was married before, divorced, no kids, and now again in front of D door&#8230; I&#8217;d say I chose the same kind of guy &#8211; those types they never mature, and they are excellent having them as friends, or lovers, but not being married to them&#8230;
I tried to connect this with my father&#8230; don&#8217;t see what turned me to these kind of men&#8230; My dad is responsible, good heart, devoted husband&#8230; I don&#8217;t see a huge mistake my parents did in my upbringing &#8211; I was excellent student (English is my second language; using it for last 5 years only <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), popular, nice & sweet person, everyone (family, neighbors, professors) always loved me, a very good professional position&#8230; and don&#8217;t have some trauma either&#8230; I had maybe too much love? - could that hurt?

Looking around me I saw many marriages existing in fights, pain, cheating&#8230; and saw a lot of hypocrisy&#8230; &#8220;staying for children&#8221; or other &#8216;excuses&#8217; for financial interests, own weaknesses&#8230; made me sad&#8230; I don&#8217;t see any as good marriage as I&#8217;d like to get for myself&#8230; to be more precise, I know just two ones!

This one I wanted to keep it for my boy&#8217;s sake&#8230; but&#8230;

Anyway&#8230; I am a sample of a &#8216;child&#8217; from a happy marriage and yet so unhappy in my own personal life&#8230;

Every generalization is incorrect.
That&#8217;s why I agree with &#8216;theory&#8217; that the most important is parenting skill&#8230;
And dilemma that even that is not enough (like in my case)&#8230; but&#8230; genetics?&#8230; destiny&#8230;?

Or - so many divorces... is it one more sign of 'God, where is this world going'...?


&#8230; Just loud thinking&#8230;

Startingover

“””I could not disagree more.”””

Good, I like a debate. Just kidding, actually I love to talk about what is best for the children, hear all views and express my views.

“””Alot of times who you marry......they change over time.”””

Correct people do change as they mature but some big factors in the rate and types of charges are their background and their current environment. So if one comes from an unhealthy background and as they are maturing they run into situation in their current environment then many times they will pull lessons learned in their background as ways of dealing with situations and making changes.

“””My EX used to be sweet and everyone liked her.”””

So did mine. So either we both married people who so radically changed do to no impact by us, in which case I’m sure Mr. Freud would like to know, or we had an impact on who they became.

“””My wife married a man who was extremely sweet and charming when he was courting her.......only for him to turn into a serial cheater.”””

So without any outside influence from your wife or his FOO he just turned into a serial cheater? That’s mind boggling to me. Again I’ll use my situation as an example. Wife and I marry and were both sweet and charming people from different backgrounds. We begin to mature and as we do we pull lessons from our background and institute changes in our lives. And it continues and continues. Now did I have an affair like my X, NO. But did I create some environmental issues that forced her to make some changes that assisted in the affair. I believe so. Like someone said, people change, when I got through with my divorce and saw who I had become, I barely recognized myself.

“””Noone marries someone whom they believe will be a bad choice.”””

True, but many times the writing is on the walls before the marriage begins.


Chris

“””And obviously if you divorced or divorcing then you made a bad choice.
Wow. Then the failure of the marriage is SOLELY the fault of your spouse and your relationship skills are perfect. Makes sense to me.”””

How you got that statement from what I said is beyond me. Of course it’s not a single responsibility item that’s what I’m talking about here.

””””But you married this person, so why didn't you see these problems prior to getting married? After all, your relationship skills are the best. But, if you didn't made a bad choice...””””.

Again, really have no idea what you’re trying to say here because that’s not at all what I’m trying to say. I’m saying that both people change over time and their changes are influenced by their current situation as well as their background. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I truly believe its better to keep a marriage in tact for the spouses and childrens sake......but, I guess it depends on the circumstances. All situations are different.

Every generalization is incorrect.
But it IS a generalization.
It will not be true in every single case.
It will not be false in every single case.
Children of divorce will not always end up emotionally screwed up.
Children of good marriages will not always grow up emotionally healthy.

I truly think that the best for kids is growing up with both happily married parents.
(the generalization I do believe in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m so scared now and feel guilt and&#8230; could die from sorrow&#8230;

I found a detailed critique of Wallerstein's work at :
http://www.4children.org/news/198coon.htm

Some points that were made:
<strong>"Wallerstein studied sixty Marin County couples, mostly white and affluent, who divorced in 1971. Her sample was drawn from families referred to her clinic because they were already experiencing...problems. Participants were recruited by the offer of counseling in exchange for commitment to a long-term study. This itself casts serious doubt on the applicability of Wallerstein's findings. The people most likely to be attracted to an offer of long-term counseling...are obviously those [who] feel they need it.

Wallerstein says she tried to weed out severely disturbed children, yet the appendix to her original study, published in 1980, admits that only one-third of the families she worked with were assessed as having "adequate psychological functioning" prior to the divorce. Half the parents had chronic depression, severe neurotic difficulties, or "long-standing problems in controlling their rage or sexual impulses." Nearly a quarter of the couples reported that there had been violence in their marriages. It is thus likely that many of the problems since experienced by their children...would not have been averted had the couples stayed together...."</strong>

and:
<strong>" [M]ore representative samples of kids from divorced parents yield much lower estimates of risk than Wallerstein's. Paul Amato and Bruce Keith, reviewing nearly every quantitative study that has been done on divorce, found some clear associations with lower levels of child well-being. But these were, on average, "not large."

Interestingly, children whose parents divorced in more recent generations are experiencing less severe problems than those whose parents divorced when laws and social stigmas were stricter. Indeed, a just-published study of 150 Boston-area families, conducted by psychologist Abigail Stewart, found that while more youngsters had slightly poorer-than-average mental health a few months after the divorce, their overall mental health had rebounded to average levels after eighteen months.

Wallerstein rejects these studies because they do not take account of what she terms a "sleeper effect," in which problems caused by divorce do not show up until years later. But larger long-term studies do not support this claim... Mavis Hetherington, who has studied more than 1,500 children of divorced parents, reports that the large majority grow up socially and psychologically well-adjusted...."</strong>

(Which reminds me, I keep meaning to get Hetherington's latest book. A link to a summary of her findings can be found here:
http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/7/hetherington-e.html)

<strong>"As divorce has gotten more acceptable it has also gotten less damaging. In 1978, a national sample found that only 50 percent of divorced couples were able to...control their anger in a way that allowed them to co-parent effectively. A more recent California study of divorcing couples found that three to four years after separation, only a quarter of divorced parents were engaged in conflict-ridden co-parenting.

Similar progress has occurred in post-divorce parental contact. Surveys at the beginning of the eighties found that more than 50 percent of children living with divorced mothers had not seen their fathers in the preceding year, while only 17 percent reported visiting their fathers weekly. But a 1988 survey found that only 18 percent had not visited their children during the past year, and 25 percent of previously married fathers saw their children at least once a week."</strong>

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: elspeth ]</small>