NotHopeful - Yes, I consider my M worth fighting for, at all costs. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a martyr. I cry and am lonely like everyone else. Unlike my W at this point I take my M vows seriously. Even though I failed her at many points I am still a man of integrity. I have enough to answer for when I stand before Jesus - I've determined that divorce is NOT going to be one of them - realizing, however, that if the D is granted to her I am released and she will be answerable. I have to do the best I can do and put the rest in Jesus' capable hands. God bless!

I must say, I was expecting something quite different when I clicked on this thread. I strive to be a spiritual person. I listen to christian radio. I read the Bible. I say a lot of prayers. I believe in prayer. I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Then I read passages like Dueteronomy 22:20-22 and I have to admit that I pick and choose from the scriptures what I use for guidance. My interpretation of the Bible is not a literal one. Like anyone else, I'm a work in progress. I question my beliefs all the time. I don't know if what I have to offer is a Christian belief or not. A summary of my perspective seemed appropriate given that you asked to hear from Christians. I'll be the first to admit I'm wishy washy on the subject, but I feel moved to reply anyway.

It's my belief that we are not mandated to stay married 'no matter what.' The fact that allowances are made for divorce in the Bible leads me to that conclusion. It's abundantly clear that God frowns on divorce. Adultery is clearly an example where divorce is allowed. In my view, there's only one person in your marriage, dwad, who has biblical grounds for divorce, and it's you. I don't understand why you would be asking if your wife has 'grounds' just because she says she doesn't love you any more. By asking such a question, I see complacency when something else might be a more appropriate response.

This is the first post of yours that I've read. I don't know all the background. I imagine some pertinent details are missing. In any case, I kept thinking of things that I learned from reading "Bold Love" by Allender. I learned from that book that forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. I also learned that sometimes the ONLY appropriate response to another person's behavior is a rebuke. I think if you examine your belief about what a strong marriage should and could be, you'll have a much longer list of qualities than 'I want a wife who doesn't date other people.' For heavens sake, marriage is way more than that! You say you don't want a divorce, yet you're willing to do the work to get one. That seems double minded to me. You sound like a person who's so interested in being polite that you're losing your marriage and yourself in the process. I think you might benefit tremendously from reading Bold Love.

Being polite and complacent are usually good qualities, but there's a time and a place for everything. There are times when you need to get down in the mud and wrestle for your convictions. One of the messages in the book says that each of us will be held accountable for our lives, our marriage. You might rest easier at night if you know you've done everything in your power to show your wife what a marriage really could be. Do you think you've done that? I can't help but wonder, have you expected too little? She certainly isn't setting a good example by Christian standards, but there's always room for improvement, and it all starts with you. So many things in scripture are taken out of context. There are times to turn the other cheek, and there are times to throw the merchants out of the temple and turn all their tables upside down.

Perhaps another bit of background about me to put my response into proper context is some of my own behavior during my marriage. My marriage wasn't affected by adultery in the traditional sense. My stbx acted irresponsibly for a long period of time, and I spent my effort in taking on more than my share of responsibility to the point that I was toppling under the weight. Another way of putting it -- I was shielding him from the natural consequences of his behavior. I didn't learn until I was drained of all my resources that it did neither one of us any favors. If there's just one thing you get from this post, I hope it is this: are you shielding your wife from consequences of her behavior?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question to the board is how does a Christian reconcile getting a divorce from another Christian solely on the grounds of "I don't love you"? That is the situation with my wife. She tells her frineds that I'm a great guy, awesome dad, really good looking, strong Christian but... she doesn't love me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess that is why I posted because I can't seem to get past how she justifies what a close walk she has with God but she is dating while still married and has had two sexual relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">dontwantadivorce - These two quotes from different posts are connected. The first answer is that a Christian DOES NOT justify "getting a divorce from another Christian solely on the grounds of "I don't love you". There is NO biblical grounds for this as justification for a divorce. To "reconcile" this one has to put their own feelings and thoughts higher than God's for the purpose of selfish interest. The marriage COVENANT between two Christians and God establishes "until death do us part", not "until I no longer 'feel' in love." The only recognized grounds for divorce by God, as clearly stated in Scripture for two Christians, is marital unfaithfulness. There is no abiguity with this and came directly from the highest authority, Jesus Christ.

Also, biblically, God commands husbands to love their wives. But God does not command wives to love their husbands. God commands wives to humbly submit to their husbands as the spiritual head of the household and to respect their husbands. The "excuse" of "I don't love you" is not something that God will accept as a reason to break the covenant.

You asked "how she justifies what a close walk she has with God but she is dating while still married and has had two sexual relationships". The answer is she does NOT have a close walk with God. The two functions, a "close walk" and "willful sinning" regardless of God's commands, are anathema to God. One CANNOT have both because repenting of sin and following God in a close walk REQUIRE turning away from sinful behavior.

God DOES NOT forgive sin without repentance and a turning away from sin. "Go and leave your life of sin" is the operative command from God.

So how does she "reconcile" her actions of active sin? By allowing Satan to be in control of her life and not God. She is doing essentially the same thing that Eve did in the Garden of Eden. She believed Satan's lies and, in effect, called God a liar. Your wife is doing the same thing.

But there is an added reason. And that reason is the church that she attends and that allows her to be involved in ANY ministry while actively sinning against God's commands. Can you really think of anything more repulsive than a church that is supposed to stand for upholding God's commands that then allows a known sinner to LEAD any group, much less a singles group? Think of the rank hypocrisy of this, not to mention the sheer risk to other Christians by her example. She is, in effect, telling all those singles that the marriage covenant is meaningless, God's commands are meaningless, and they can do whatever they want to do. This church, or at least the leadership, is in dire trouble.

Someone should be taking "righteous anger" to the church leadership. This should not be happening and if the leadership makes any excuse for tolerating this behavior and their decision to let her lead any group, then take it to the whole church. Yes, it may well be divisive, and that is why I stressed "righteous anger." Follow God's admonition to "be angry, but in your anger do not sin." What the anger is directed at is sin against God and that anyone calling themselves a Christian would permit the teaching of God to be perverted.

I also wanted to pick up on something that sufdb said to you:

"Lastly dwad, your post had a sort of judgemental tone re your wifes walk with God, the "do over" stuff, etc. She is correct she will be forgiven, and she can continue on with her life....how that all works out is between her and God, and not you. You can only walk your own walk, be sure that is what you are doing."

Your "tone" should have a "judgmental tone" because her actions are in direct violation of God's commands and you, as a Christian, should be offended by her actions not only against you and the marriage, but that are open and willful sin against God. Sufdb is WAY off base when he says, "She is correct she will be forgiven". God clearly lists adulterers as some of those who will NOT be in heaven. The ONLY way to attain forgiveness for any sin, and for adultery in particular, is to confess the sin to God, repent of it (turn 180 degrees from the sinful behavior), and commit to follow God in humble obedience to His commands no matter how one might "feel" or "rationalize" their sinful behavior. Only then will God forgive the sin and restore the individual through the atoning blood of Christ. Any other way makes Christ's sacrifice on our behalf meaningless. It makes everything Christ said a lie. If forgiveness of sin can be had ANY other way, then there was no need for Christ to die for us to provide the only means for us to be reconciled to God.

jph - I believe that you are trying to use Scripture incorrectly. You seem to be taking passages out of context and are trying to use them to say that divorce is allowed for a myriad of reasons. That is patently false. Jesus Christ specifically pointed out the fallacy of that reasoning in the New Testament passages. It is clear and unambiguous. Divorce is allowed for the maritally FAITHFUL spouse if the other spouse commits marital unfaithfulness. The covenant is broken by the sinning spouse and the faithful spouse, can if they choose, divorce and even remarry (according to the rules of Scripture) WITHOUT committing adultery. The same is NOT true for the unfaithful spouse. The sin of the unfaithful spouse can be forgiven if they reach the point of confession and repentance, but the consequence of the sin (prohibition against marrying someone other than their original spouse) remains in place. No, it's not an easy thought. But it comes from God and no matter how much we might want to say, "yes, but...", God has spoken on the issue and HE is sovereign, not us.

dontwantadivorce - If you love your wife and would like the opportunity to recover your marriage and rekindle the love between you, then you should NOT divorce. You should be proactively meeting with the people at the church that telling your wife that her actions are "okay" and "acceptable" by not confronting her and allowing her to lead any ministry.

I have a pamphlet that might help you with this a little. It is called, "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour?", by Jay E. Adams. If you'd like it, I can email it to you. If you don't want to post your email address, you can email it to me at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com, or open a free Yahoo account for yourself and then post that address.

God bless. This is the time to stand before those who call themselves Christians and ask them to support God's commands and to help you reach your wife with what God teaches.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

We are all sinners. Christians are forgiven sinners. We all fall short of the glory of God. Yes, if we have a true relationship with Him we learn to recognize our sin and then repent and turn from our sin.

I don't go through a day without sinning. No one does. It is how we handle the sin that matters. Do we try and find scriptures to justify our behavior or do we respond to the Holy Spirit working inside of us? I believe it is this simple.
The fact that I realize I have sin shows that the Holy Spirit is working in me.

We could argue about the meaning of scripture till the end of time and we would still disagree.
That is why it is a living Bible. As Christians read God's word, God reveals himself to them. We have a living God because we are to have a relationship with Him. We must seek Him in all things. No one here on earth can convict us of our sins. Only God can lead us down the path we are to take. We must ask Him and Him alone all of these kind of questions. We then must let Him speak to us through His word and guide us with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus alone must be Lord of our life. He is the one that must convict your wife of her sin, in His time. God is working on her and It will be Him she must answer to. She cannot hide from God.

We can pray for others to see their sin. We can gently restore those believers that have strayed from the truth. We will never convict. You must trust God with your wife's sin. We are to concentrate on our sins. If we say we don't have sin, then we need to turn to God to reveal our sin to us, because it is there.

Please don't be tempted to argue scripture. Our relationship with God is to be between us and Him. Live your life as God reveals you to through His word. Don't get caught up in the laws. Hang on to the relationship you have with Jesus.

I left my first husband and I justified it much as your wife is doing. I had not given my life to Christ but I knew enough to try and justify what I was doing. You know what? I have came to realize all the sins of my past. God has had me deal with each of them in His time. I got by with nothing. I know the truth now. I have turn from those sins but I still struggle with sin everyday.

We are all hypocrites in one way of another. Yes, some are worse than others but we all have thing we judge others on and we are many times doing the same things ourselves. We may or may not realize it at the time but we do it. I have noticed that every time I judge someone on something, I am later put in the same situation or sin and have to look at myself. Don't let hypocrites keep you from church. They will always be and again we all fall short. One day we and we alone will have to stand before God and be judged. So we need to concentrate on our own sin and pray for others.

No one can justify sin. Sin is sin. No one can hide from it. Your wife is not getting away with anything.

Faith hope and love. The greatest of these is love. Show this love in all we do and say.
This is hard I know, but we have God's grace and mercy.


I don't believe your wife should be leading a ministry at church if she is still married and dating. This is something the leaders of the church need to take care of. But I must warn you, if it comes from you , even if it is just you informing the leaders, she will become more angry and bitter toward you. This is something you should spent a lot of time on your knees about. God will give you the answers you need.

gentle

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: gentle ]</small>