StartinOver:

You say you're not hating, but clearly you hold resentment for your xW and her OM. What's the difference?

If you truly don't care about her, why not drop this? If the church knows about their activities, why not let them handle it, or not handle it and face those consequences. Does the OMW know? You might consider outing the A 2 her so that she knows what she's dealing with. On tthe other hand, if she does know, she may appear not 2 be "doing anything about it" because she's learning all she can, becoming an informed BS, so that she can rebuild her M when/if the A dies.

Let them deal with the incongruities of their behavior and their purported beliefs. Apply some good ol' empirically-derived MB methods and move on, happily ever after! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Eduard:

"This quote is a good quote "the greatest single cause for aetheism in the world is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." We are all guilty at some point."

Huh? Atheism has a "cause?" I think not. Atheism is a lack of belief in a conventional "supreme being", just as religion is the belief in one.

I used 2 think I'm an atheist, but lately have realized I'm probably a spiri2alist instead. Grew up as a Christian. Don't "do" church these days, though.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong> cjack,

What I think is incredible is the fact that so many people actually think ALL preachers TEACH what the Bible says--Many don't..and many church members don't even READ their Bibles much less pick them up once they leave Church on Sunday--so they have NO idea what God's word really says-

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny you should mention that, 'cause I think you're spot on!

I've had some pretty serious debates with a Christian friend of mine, mostly on the issue of church/state separation, evolution and such. He was pretty adamant about taking the Bible literally, and got really angry with me when I suggested there might be parts of the OT that were co-opted from earlier cultures, such as the flood/Noah story and the similarities to the much older Sumerian flood story.

I decided that, in order to understand his position better, I should read the Bible. So recently I started reading a bit every night. I mentioned this to him in an e-mail, to which he replied "that's funny, because I'm actually reading it cover to cover for the first time."
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

That just floored me, because he's so passionate about his faith.


Regarding Eduard's quote:

"the greatest single cause for aetheism in the world is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

I don't know about it being the "greatest single cause," but I will admit that a good deal of my own aversion to Christianity come from this.

I love God and He is always in my heart. But I am actually AFRAID of people in the "church". I was so brainwashed by them years ago and taught to feel guilty over many many things and I later realized these were people that were busy sinning and having affairs. My youth pastor tried to grope me once. Was that "Gods Love" ? I wish I could trust the church but I get caught up in the "Cult" mentality and lose myself. Every time.

Not that these church people need to be perfect all the time but that they need to quit indoctrinating me, trying to evangelize me, stereotype me, and trying to brainwash me, (I am already a Christian), and laying guilt on me and just offer love, caring, and spiritual food, and social things.

But NO. It is always a money grubbing, guilt ridden experiance where I feel worse going home from church than before I went there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> StartinOver:

You say you're not hating, but clearly you hold resentment for your xW and her OM. What's the difference?

If you truly don't care about her, why not drop this? If the church knows about their activities, why not let them handle it, or not handle it and face those consequences. Does the OMW know? You might consider outing the A 2 her so that she knows what she's dealing with. On tthe other hand, if she does know, she may appear not 2 be "doing anything about it" because she's learning all she can, becoming an informed BS, so that she can rebuild her M when/if the A dies.

Let them deal with the incongruities of their behavior and their purported beliefs. Apply some good ol' empirically-derived MB methods and move on, happily ever after! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, MY EXs brother (former bro in law) is the one who brought this to my attention last week. I had no idea what was going on. My EXs family had a huge argument with her over this and what this could be doing to my kids....their grandkids.......so its NOT hating since I didnt go out and investigate what is going on in my EX wifes life.

((((StartingOver))))

It appears this thread is getting off the beatin path a little but I’d like to offer one more thing to those who are “putting” down their church.

I can’t tell parables like Jesus but I do see it fitting. I went and ate a Burger King hamburger last night and I didn’t care for it. Come to think of it, I ate a McDonald’s hamburger a couple weeks ago and I didn’t like it either. Therefore, should I assume that all fast food hamburgers taste bad? Should I assume that all hamburger tastes bad? Should I assume that all red meat tastes bad and never eat it again?

Since I’m a beef lover living in the center of beef country I can tell you that there is good beef as well as not so good beef. As a Lay Speaker (Local Preacher) I can tell you that there are good congregations as well as not so good congregations. As a Christian I can tell you that I’ve seen good Christians as well as not so good Christians. But the point is that we don’t throw the baby out with the diapers.

‘Nuff Said…..

God Bless y’all.

Wasnt "putting down" the church.....just alot of hypocrites that attend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

--Funny you should mention that, 'cause I think you're spot on!--

TR- Cjack, I see it all the time--and it's not necessarily that they aren't Christians--but they have never grown in Christ--

They are in essence whats refered to in the Bible the books of 1 Corinthians 3, Roman's Chapter 2:17-24--and a couple passages in Matthew and Luke--as Babe's in Christ--They know and understand the basic's of Christianity--

They understand that Christ died and paid the price for their sins--but have never studied anything past that--and I truly hate to say this, but it's true-- Many Preachers don't preach past that--as baba2 said..they only preach hell fire and brimestone--your life is full of sin and your going to hell if you don't accept Christ as your Savior--

I visited a church someone had invited me to--they said it was a great church--the preaching was great---I sat there for like 15 minutes..then took my kids by the hand and said..come on were leaving--I got up and walked out in the middle of the sermon--ALL eyes were on me--the Preacher even stopped in mid-sentence--a man got up and followed me out the door as I went--to ask WHY I was leaving--

I looked at the man and told him...because HE is Preaching a false doctrine--and explained --This preacher is up there saying that even LISTENING to certain music would send them to Hell--

I said, that NO where in the bible does it say *listening* to such music is going to send them to hell--but, that they will go because of their choice not to accept Christ as their savior--and personally I will not allow my children to sit under that teaching--he got all huffy, I got my kids and left--

Now, there is music I don't listen to--not because I "can't" but because I choose not too--
just as with anyone--they listen to what they enjoy--and don't listen to what they don't--

Just as with the Ten Commandments (which you refered to) God set those in place for a reason--so that we can live in peace among one another--and to prevent us from being hurt--just look at adultry--and murder--or having someone lie to you--all those things cause pain--and God realizes that people will hurt each other--and so He tells us not to worship them--and we see that even in the context of the very first commandment--Exodus 20:3 when we look for someone or something else to make us happy--we are in essence making them or things our God--what happens when they fail us?? we hurt--

These are all lesson's I've learned over the years
many took me years to understand..even having accepted Christ as my Savior at 17

I didn't understand much of what the Bible said
I understood I was a sinner--and Christ died
for my sins--and without Him--I'd go to hell

I didn't know I also had to read the bible to grow in my walk with Christ--to have a more personal relationship--why didn't I know that?? because the Preachers didn't say that--they left that out of their Preaching--just as many still do today--

but I was blest in meeting a pastor who took the time to share what the bible says--and who also encouraged me to see for myself and not depend on a preacher in a pulpit one or two hours a week--to teach me what it says--He told me..not all preachers teach what it says--so you must read it for yourself..so that you can do as the bible says in 1 John 4--

I hope this helps you to understand a little more-
what really happens within some churches..and in the lives of people who happen to be Christians--

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

S.O.:

"First of all, MY EXs brother (former bro in law) is the one who brought this to my attention last week. I had no idea what was going on. My EXs family had a huge argument with her over this and what this could be doing to my kids....their grandkids.......so its NOT hating since I didnt go out and investigate what is going on in my EX wifes life. "

I stand corrected (even though I'm sitting, at the moment). It sounds like the consequences of her choices may be finally catching up with her.

Best,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> S.O.:

"First of all, MY EXs brother (former bro in law) is the one who brought this to my attention last week. I had no idea what was going on. My EXs family had a huge argument with her over this and what this could be doing to my kids....their grandkids.......so its NOT hating since I didnt go out and investigate what is going on in my EX wifes life. "

I stand corrected (even though I'm sitting, at the moment). It sounds like the consequences of her choices may be finally catching up with her.

Best,
-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem 2long........what made me post this thread is that my EX used to hate many of my friends because they cheated on their spouses.....she used to preach to me that I should not associate with them because they were lost. Well fast forward to now......she is the one committing adultery......with someone in the church. (shakes head in disbelief)

StartinOver,

Matthew Chapter 7 discusses this topic--


what made me post this thread is that my EX used to hate many of my friends because they cheated on their spouses.....she used to preach to me that I should not associate with them because they were lost. Well fast forward to now...she is the one committing adultery......with someone in the church. (shakes head in disbelief)

Im gonna back off this thread also........Im not gonna talk about the EX anymore..........(whats her name again)????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

StartinOver,


--Im gonna back off this thread also--

TR- Why? It's a good thread--a lot of sharing--and understanding different perspectives going on here--

--Im not gonna talk about the EX anymore--

TR- And this thread doesn't have to be about her--
as you asked a very valid question..wanting to understand something your struggling with--and hopefully, what has been shared has brought insight to your original question--and maybe by continuing to seek answers it will help you, me and others continue to grow--

Well, here's a whole different perspective.

My ex took advantage of my Christianity.

He did!

He thought that he had it made. He thought that I would never, ever leave him unless he cheated or left me because it was against my religion.

So because of that he never respected what I needed. He never helped me do anything I needed help with. If I told him please don't do something he wouldn't listen because he knew I wouldn't leave or cheat on him. If I told him I needed romance, he just didn't care. Help me clean the house, he'd say no way.

He'd come home and lay on the couch or get on the computer and block his whole family out, because as he said, "My day is finished."

He took advantage, but not any more.

Now, I'm not going to marry anyone but the person who will go to church with me, who believes in Jesus and God, who knows how to treat a wife and who does things as a family. Who believes that you don't leave marriages in your mind or body, because my ex just like so many ex's thought that they could just lay back, have their cake and eat it too, and do nothing as a husband and a father.

Anna

Hey ThornedRose...

Keep hitting that nail on the head.

I'm fascinated with your views. They're very similar (if not the same) to cjack's and mine, just from a different perspective. (you're a theist, cjack and I are not)

If someone is going to believe in a religion, the least they could do is follow what it says.

Anna2000,

I don't know if it's a completely different perspective--as that is much how my ex responded--
he went to church with me--before we married--and then after we married he quit going--it's like I mentioned before--they have a basic understanding of the Bible--they know *some* of what it says--

God hates divorce--thou shalt not commit adultry--

So many people--men and women alike think that if they marry someone who is a Christian..then they will NEVER do certain things..like leave or have affairs--it's that limited understanding of Christianity--

And if he is like others who hold true to that belief--they think that even if the Christian doesn't go to church and study the bible--they will be fine--because of the "basic" beliefs--

Cjack, Father of 1, You can call me a Christian--
I'm not ashamed to carry that name--or title--
although I do not always follow Christ's example as I should--I do live with the conviction within myself--when I don't--and I also realize that when I stumble and fall--I hurt His name and reputaion--

And yes, I do see this from a different perspective--as a Christian, looking at my own life through God's eyes--and see how far I fall from His standards--and seeing that--helps me see how other Christians--also fall just as short as I do from those same standards--

Even though we are Christians, we are also still human--and so we still struggle with desires of the flesh--we still have choices to make between doing what is right, and what is wrong--just as everyone else does--

I'm sure you've heard the Bible says in John Chapter 3 that we must be 'born again'--but what does that really mean??

If we look at ourselves as more than just a body--
which was physically born--the natural birth--and as the bible refers to it as the natural man 1 Corinthians 2, 1 Corinthians 15:, and also in James Chapter 1--

but also as having a spirit--or soul that we are born with--in the physical sense of our birth that is part of the Natural man--

Now when we accept Christ as our Savior--we are spiritually born...not physically re-born.

our Souls are now born into God's family--and just as with our physical bodies that need food and water in order to survive and grow--

Our souls need the same thing--by feeding and drinking if you will, the word of God which is the Bible--and we also need love, care and nurture from a Christian family--which should be found within the church--just as love, care and nurture should be found within our homes--

If a person goes without food and water the physical bodies get weak, and we are more prone to illness--if our spiritual bodies, if you will, go without food and water (reading and studying the bible) it also get's weak--which is when we are more likely to sin--and yet, in both cases when we when begin to eat and drink again..we grow stronger-


About the churches--

If pastors aren't preaching what the Bible says
they are in essence feeding their churches nothing but junk food---

would we as humans if we ate nothing but junk food be healthy?? would our physical bodies be strong?? Or would we be weak??

If we never exercised our physical bodies what would happen??

As Christians, our spiritual sides are just as important as the physical..and we need the food, water, and exercise in order to remain healthy and grow spiritually--just as our physical bodies do--

Does that make sense or shed some light onto some things you haven't understood??

What would I do if I were Satan and my primary job was to turn people against God and Christ?

1. I would put my own people in God's Churches to sin, gossip and even tempt the other members to cause chaos and controvery among the members.

2. I would put my own people at the pulpit to again cause chaos & controversy.

3. I would build Churches that I call Churches that will be full of greed for money and would make millions of dollars for con-artists to collect, as only man would profit, and I would have people who are weak and don't know the bible follow the heads of these churches like puppets.

4. I would cause muliple churches and multiple beliefs to come in to again confuse and cause people to turn against God and the real churches out there.

5. I would take weak Christians who are struggling with their Christianity, Christians who haven't learned the Bible yet and I would tempt them with my own members that I placed in the Church.

Yep, if I were Satan, that's what I would do!

Written by Anna

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</small>

TR and Anna,

I really enjoyed both of your posts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't want to be called a "theist" either. Even though I am, the term "Christian" designates WHO I belong to. I am not ashamed of it.

Petals

TR and Anna - I liked your posts also. I'll offer an observation as a police chaplain and a minister in training. I have NEVER, EVER spoke to anyone who regretted accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. I have ministered to accident victims, terminal cancer patients, all kinds of abuse situations, domestic violence, etc. Not in one instance did the hurting person express regret about their belief, even in the midst of suffering.

On the other hand, I have witnessed many instances of people deliberately rejecting the Lord. They are miserable, confused, can't sleep, deep emotional problems, and on and on. They have no satisfaction with this life or their relationships.

This also includes 8 years of prison ministry.

This should tell you something about the reality of Jesus. Why do "so called Christians" commit adultery? Because they are still human beings, with a free will, that CHOSE to ignore the Word and instead focused on the flesh or emotions. Flesh and emotions will always lead us astray. The key is to plug into the Lord so thoroughly that the things of the Spirit override the working of the flesh. Requires discipline - yes! Requires sacrifice - yes! Requires humility - yes! Brings joy - yes! Brings fulfillment - yes! Brings hope - yes!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting Promise Keeper:
<strong>

On the other hand, I have witnessed many instances of people deliberately rejecting the Lord. They are miserable, confused, can't sleep, deep emotional problems, and on and on. They have no satisfaction with this life or their relationships.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hold on a second! By your standards, I've "deliberately rejected the Lord."

I have never been a Christian, nor do I have any plans to become one.

Yet I'm mentally and physically healthy, relatively well adjusted, and I have a great satisfaction with my life and my relationships. I'm financially stable, successful in my chosen field, and working very hard to be a positive role model for my daughter. The only thing I can honestly say I regret is the way my marriage ended.

Painting all non-believers as miserable people is unfair and quite frankly offensive.

Painting all non-believers as miserable people is unfair and quite frankly offensive.
If you had actually read his post, then you wouldn't be offended or think it's unfair.

He didn't write "all instances of people deliberately rejecting the Lord...", he wrote "many instances...".