cjack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hold on a second! By your standards, I've "deliberately rejected the Lord."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you're saying you have deliberately rejected the Lord?

hPK said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This should tell you something about the reality of Jesus. Why do "so called Christians" commit adultery? Because they are still human beings, with a free will, that CHOSE to ignore the Word and instead focused on the flesh or emotions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like he's not just talking about non-Christians to me, but Christians as well.

Petals

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
<strong> So, you're saying you have deliberately rejected the Lord?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to put it that way, then yes. I have never been a Christian, I don't believe in the Christian God...or any god for that matter. I am a lifelong non-theist, and like you with your Christianity, I am not ashamed of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
hPK said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This should tell you something about the reality of Jesus. Why do "so called Christians" commit adultery? Because they are still human beings, with a free will, that CHOSE to ignore the Word and instead focused on the flesh or emotions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like he's not just talking about non-Christians to me, but Christians as well.

Petals </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think we'll have to wait for hpk to respond, but his post (imo) clearly implied that people who "reject the Lord" are generally miserable, confused people. I thought that was an unfair mischaracterization.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: cjack ]</small>

CJack,

First, glad to see you, it's been ages!!! How's the radio station going? I have a question off topic...K?...Ready...?

When the station says, "Be the 50th caller and you'll win such and such." About how long does it take for the computer or whatever does the callers these days to pick 50 callers. I am sure it is much shorter than it takes for the DJs to finally get on and say "We have a winner" so I just hate wasting my time... well that's my question OT and on a "I need to know this, basis". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay, seriously...even though that was serious too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think it is awesome that you would read the Bible considering your position.

I have told a friend of mine, "How can you disagree with something you know so little about? Read it, study it with the right people and then come back to me and tell me you don't believe in God. I would take him more seriously then."

I would, however, recommend you read the New Testament first and then the Old Testament. Some people wonder why all the "Abraham begot Isaac, so & so begot so & so and so forths." You may know this as I don't know how far your studies have gone, but there's a reason why the writers go into geneology, it's very, very fascinating learning the whys behind the writings.

In the New Testament Matthew goes into the geneology of Jesus through Joseph his father to prove Jesus was the heir of the throne of David. The thing Matthew was doing was trying to prove his leneage to a bunch of skeptic Jews. As God had sent someone they didn't expect, a poor Jew, when they expected a rich King already dressed in royalty.

Thus the first verse in Matthew...The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers.
Matthew 1:1,2

Also, I would suggest if you study with a scholar of the Bible, you do it with someone who's heart is correct. The Bible says you will know these people by their fruits. I wouldn't look for the most prominent, the richest, the one who only tells you what you want to hear, or the most well known. To me, just like Jesus was, I'd look for the humble, the person not into all the money and fame, the one that is excited about God's word and the one that is wanting to teach you God's word with no motives other than for you to learn. Getting someone who twist the words and the meaning of the Bible around can be worse than not reading it at all. Also, get some different perspectives from different scholars.

Referring to answering to no one but yourself. Over the years I have thought about this a lot.

You must answer to people on this earth no matter who you are.

I answer to my myself, kids, boss, customers, police, Government...

Right now God gave me free choice to answer to him or not, it's just that in the end he tells us all will have to answer to him for the choices made, including rich, famous, kings, everyone.

I look at it this way too. In order for a corporation to be successful you have to have a chain of authority and someone has to be in charge. The universe has an authority, God.

Take care,

Anna

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting Promise Keeper:
<strong> On the other hand, I have witnessed many instances of people deliberately rejecting the Lord. They are miserable, confused, can't sleep, deep emotional problems, and on and on. They have no satisfaction with this life or their relationships.

This also includes 8 years of prison ministry.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm with cjack on this one.

Furthermore, I think your experience in prison has distorted your views for the simple matter that you won't find many atheists in prisons.

The percentage of atheists in prison is far less than the percentage of atheists in the general population. (roughly 1/50th the percentage)

http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/statstext.html

From my perspective, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: father of 1, husband of 0 ]</small>

Anna,

The radio thing is going great. Gangbusters, actually, thanks for asking. When they do the Xth caller wins" thing, it goes very fast. Most radio stations have a bank of anywhere from 5-10 phone lines that ring off the same #. The phone interface is basically a custom-made speaker phone called a Telos that let's us blow through calls pretty quick. It's just a matter of saying "hi, caller #x, try again, thanks!" I can get a 10th caller winner in about a minute. So if they want the 10th caller and you've got a busy signal for 90 seconds... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


As for me reading the Bible and it magically converting me, don't hold your breath.

I've read big chunks of it before (including Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Job, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and a good portion of Psalms), as well as a couple scholarly works regarding the origins of the Bible. I took a couple religion and philosophy classes in college as well.

I've also been "witnessed" to so many times I've lost count, and it only serves to strengthen my aversion to Christianity.

You mentioned studying it with the "right people." Funny thing is, everyone seems to have a different interpretation of what is "right."

Robert Ingersoll wrote "Every sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed his will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning."

I'm just reading it, start to finish, as an "outsider" trying to gain insight into the minds of believers.


And I can see why you'd want to steer people away from the OT... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cjack:
<strong>

And I can see why you'd want to steer people away from the OT... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the help on how long it takes for the callers.

I promise not to hold my breath on you being converted either as I wouldn't want to turn purple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Re: Your statement on steering you clear of the OT. NO WAY! YOu misintrepreted my reason. I just didn't realize you hadn't read the NT that much and so many people quit reading before they get to the NT which is what Christianity is all about.

Anyway, good luck with reading and finishing it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anna

quote:

Robert Ingersoll wrote "Every sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed his will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning."

------

That is why it is call the living word of God and why it is all about our personal relationship with Him. Each of us will have our own meaning for the scriptures. The Bible was written for believers so they will discern what God is saying to them. That is why we shouldn't argue about scripture. We are the only ones that have to answer to God for what we do on this earth. We will not be held responsible for what anyone else does. We must find our own peace with God and His word.

gentle

Cjack,

Thanks for using the term Christian. I hope that my statement that I am not ashamed to be called a Christian didn't come across as "in your face" because I didn't mean it that way.

It can be difficult to pick up on tone in this medium and when you said you were not ashamed to be an atheist, I wondered if that's how my statement seemed to you. Not that your statement seemed that way to me, but that the thought crossed my mind that it was possible it may have seemed that way to you.

I believe in diplomacy, can't you tell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So anyway, I think several things will have to happen before you will be willing to convert.

1. God will have to get your attention and ask you to choose. If you haven't faced the question pointedly and clearly where you had a moment of doubt in your current belief system, and the possibility of God's existence was frighteningly real, I'll bet it's coming. My moment was the opposite, where the absence of God was frighteningly presented. Yes, I was scared witless. I hashed it out and came to full belief in God. I am no longer scared.

2. You have to come to believe scripture for yourself.

3. You have to be able to dispense with your own beliefs. This will possibly be the most difficult thing for you to do. It's familiar and safe.

Anyway, this isn't patented. I shy from pat answers. It may seem like it. If that's the case, then thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> JK. I hope it seems logical.

You know, you might read bp22's posts on the EN board. Do a search. He doesn't believe either. Many of us have revealed our journeys. If you want to understand the mind of a believer, IN ADDITION to reading the Bible, you might read those posts. Scripture is still necessary because it's the foundation.

I'll butt out for now. I'm not divorcing, nor am I divorced, nor am I planning to. I like some of the people here though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anna and Gentle, I agree. Gentle, that last post of yours gave me a different angle of consideration on that point. Thanks.

Petals

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

Petals,

I appreciate the diplomacy, and I appreciate the thoughts.

However, I think you may have misread my intentions in reading the Bible.

Again, I'm reading it to help me to understand the mindset of the Christian. Like reading Marx's "Communist Manifesto" to understand the roots of Marxism, or reading Zen koans to appreciate Buddhist thought. Its just intellectual curiosity for me.


Its okay, I've run into plenty of Christians who, when they find out I'm a godless heathen, assume that I'm either:

1. A Christian who has "fallen away" from the fold, or

2. A confused, lost soul who doesn't know what he believes and is just "seeking" God.


Rest assured, I am as confident and secure in my beliefs as you are. I am no more likely to convert to Christianity than you are to convert to Islam.

I would never suggest you should do so, nor would I suggest any list of things that would "need to happen" before you would be "willing to accept Allah."

Nor would I presume to suggest that you need to "dispense with your beliefs."

Your beliefs are yours, and I respect that.

Petals,

I appreciate the diplomacy, and I appreciate the thoughts.

Oh, good. I'm glad my aims were clear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

However, I think you may have misread my intentions in reading the Bible.

Again, I'm reading it to help me to understand the mindset of the Christian. Like reading Marx's "Communist Manifesto" to understand the roots of Marxism, or reading Zen koans to appreciate Buddhist thought. Its just intellectual curiosity for me.

I mentioned that. Remember? I said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to understand the mind of a believer, IN ADDITION to reading the Bible, you might read those posts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Its okay, I've run into plenty of Christians who, when they find out I'm a godless heathen, assume that I'm either:

1. A Christian who has "fallen away" from the fold, or

2. A confused, lost soul who doesn't know what he believes and is just "seeking" God.

I did not assume that.

Rest assured, I am as confident and secure in my beliefs as you are. I am no more likely to convert to Christianity than you are to convert to Islam.

I would never suggest you should do so, nor would I suggest any list of things that would "need to happen" before you would be "willing to accept Allah."

Why not? I'm acknowledging that I don't think *I* can change your mind.


Nor would I presume to suggest that you need to "dispense with your beliefs."

In order to believe in God, you would have to dispense with some of your beliefs, right? Specifically that there is no God?


Your beliefs are yours, and I respect that.

Likewise. I don't believe I've disrespected you at all. If you feel that way, and my explanations do not set it right, let me know so I won't make the same mistakes again.

Thanks,

Petals