I've been working overtime this week and just haven't gotten back to you.

Doofus does pay $1300/month child support - no increases in over 5 years. No provisions to split these costs or before or after school provisions were in the decree as the children weren't doing these things at the time of the divorce. It didn't dawn on me to include it. My atty didn't bring it up. And doofus didn't offer.

His wife works and earns about $35k. They rent a 3-br apt. Two cars are paid for. I gave him $42K at the time of the divorce to pay off bills he had run up while we were married and for cash on the house to get a quit claim deed.

He is currently threatening to take son out of karate at the end of the month if the child doesn't practice. Nate just failed his brown belt test - all of his kadas. I encourage him to practice. His father encourages him to practice. But we can't make him do it.

If he doesn't have to pay for karate, I guess he might help to pay for French horn lessons.

School uniform for son is $25-29 for a shirt, $29 for pants, shoes are $30-40. As for daughter and me, it's TJ Maxx, consignment, or used. Occaisionally Target. That's all I can afford.

Right now, I need new tires for the car, and the VCR died. Anybody want to come paint a house or repair a stone wall? I can paint interiors but not the trim on the eaves of the house.

This is not the life I had a contract for.

<small>[ January 17, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

I got my Divorce in Alaska - they take their caculated CSED Amounts right off the top - no 'net' income enters into it.
I do know different states do have different rules though.
$1300 a month; sounds like Doofus is getting off fairly light.
HOWEVER, and let me say this: no amount of money can restore the love and respect to shattered hearts and lives by a Divorce! None whatsoever! Everyone loses in a Divorce, except the Lawyers. Kids suffer the worst of all - right along with the Betrayed Spouse.
JMHO.
Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MadMaXX69:
<strong> I got my Divorce in Alaska - they take their caculated CSED Amounts right off the top - no 'net' income enters into it.
I do know different states do have different rules though.
$1300 a month; sounds like Doofus is getting off fairly light.
HOWEVER, and let me say this: no amount of money can restore the love and respect to shattered hearts and lives by a Divorce! None whatsoever! Everyone loses in a Divorce, except the Lawyers. Kids suffer the worst of all - right along with the Betrayed Spouse.
JMHO.
Harold </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And now you understand why I'm so against divorce. I didn't want it, I didn't ask my wife to have an affair, and now I face a court telling me that I have to give her my child most of the time and give her money to raise my child, and I'll have very little say over what happens.

Yeah, I'm a little bitter!

Tony

Tony, if your marriage can not be saved, and I hope it can, be sure your attorney is good and press for all the time you can get with your child. Maybe you can manage 50/50. There are some here who have managed that.

As for me, I knew I was dealing with someone who had earlier said he did not believe in getting mad, he believes in getting even. I let him have joint custody but it is worded so that I have sole authority to make all the decisions about child-stuff, as long as I keep him informed.

I go well beyond that. I try to keep him informed before I make decisions, to give him some input. But I can't stand the man.

I guess I'll never like him. Probably never should have liked him.

<small>[ January 17, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

Those of you who get lots of child support a month are lucky. I am supposed to get $603 a month for 3 children. (My ex quit his job the day after he got served with divorce papers) Most months I don't get the entire amount. For example, this month I've only gotten $136.75. But as long as he makes an attempt, not much will be done. He provides nothing extra either. No insurance, no help on medical bills, no help with extra activities. My huband and I pay for all of that ourselves, and my husband put my kids on his insurance or else there would still be none.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mitzi, I know I am lucky. But I am peeved. Even with just his salary, after child support and tuition, he still has more money to spend than me. And he would begrudge his daughter $30.

I do tell people that I am lucky that he pays his child support on time. And in full.

But, I was quite content living a child free life. I had accepted that. The first child was his choice. I would have been fine without children. The second child was conceived because I did not want to have only one child. I wanted none or more than one.

Everything about the relationship has always been done the way he wanted it. I feel I haave had little say in ANYTHING.

He didn't want me to work after the first child was born. Guilted me on that. Then he decided he wasn't happy. Guilted me on that. Then he got a divorce. Because he said I couldn't meet ONE of his emotional needs. And he has tried to guilt me on that. He thinks I play mind games with him. Actually, I'm a just a hard-trying ADD-adult. And he guilts me about those behaviors.

And now he tries this stunt.

And now, even more recently, he wants to take son out of karate.

GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

First of all, I want to say that being a single parent has to be tough, and I really sympathize with you.

I think you are a little off-base on expecting Doofus to help you pay for these lessons (especially considering he is already solely paying for Karate lessons). From everything I have read, you are the one that had the agreement and requirements with your daughter.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">G did meet the requirements I set down for private horn lessons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, you may want to look at the income disparity a little differently because it MAY not be as great as you feel it is.

$90.000
21,000 IRS
1,380 Karate
15,600 Child Support
$52,020 After tax, childcare, Karate

$26,000
15,600 Child Support
41,600 Income with Child Support

I did not list any IRS for you because with claiming the children, child tax credits, earned income credit, etc. I have seen cases where the filer actually got more back than they paid in. I just don't know what your tax bill is.

Just for the record, his current wife's salary has absolutely nothing to do with child support.

If it is only $15 for him (as many here have said), it is ONLY $15 for you. I personally don't feel you have any choice but to suck it up and pay for the lessons that you promised.

MHO is you are picking a fight that is really not worth fighting ($30.00/month). Choose your battles wisely.

Becontent,

Thanks for looking at a possibility of what the numbers could be.

Remember, the spouse receiving CS doesn't pay tax on that money either, IIRC. So in this case, only the $26K is taxed, and that probably at 15% (or are the rates lower now)

Of course, both will pay FICA at ~ 7.65% and I don't know if it is figured in these calculations.

I can tell you this. Uncle Sam and the state of IL get about 60% of my overtime pay, indicating that my marginal tax rate for every new dollar I earn is about 40% when you figure, fed income tax, FICA and state income tax. Of course, that is after about 15% of that money goes into 401K and ESPP. The 401K is pre-tax money and the ESPP is after-tax money, FWIW.

So I have some empathy for the mom's struggling to make it on lower salaries, and I know what that is like because the Army didn't pay squat when I was in. My salary now is much higher, but I get to keep much less of it, so I don't buy into the argument that I have a lot more because of what I see on my pay statement every two weeks.

Not to mention I doubt I'll see much from that ~7.65% FICA when SSI is broke by the time I'm ready to retire. So that explains why I'm trying to put 20% back in 401K, IRA and individual stock purchases.

What's my reward for trying to save and look to the future? Giving up half of it to my WW who simply cannot see her being happy with me in the future.

Yes, I'm still bitter.

Tony

Jane-Elise,

I can completely understand why you're upset. When I read some of the posts about how much child support is received and how much help is given, it pi$$es me off! Not at you all but at my ex! He is a complete jerk where my kids are concerned. One time we saw him at a small convenience store. My youngest ran over to him and asked him if he would buy him a candy bar. My ex said "No, get your mom to do that" He doesn't even buy for them at birthdays or Christmas. Can't even take time out of his busy schedule to see them. It just really irks me!!

I hope this does work out for you so that your D can take the lessons. Keep kids busy and they stay out of trouble!!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by becontent:
<strong>Also, you may want to look at the income disparity a little differently because it MAY not be as great as you feel it is.

$90.000
21,000 IRS
1,380 Karate
15,600 Child Support
$52,020 After tax, childcare, Karate

$26,000
15,600 Child Support
41,600 Income with Child Support</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, but becontent, you are missing a GIGANTIC piece of this puzzle. The $52K after tax, CS and karate, he gets to keep and spend on himself and his new wife...two adult people. The $41K income with CS needs to support two elementary age children and an adult. PLUS you did not include expenses on the $41k side like you did on the $52K side: Daily school lunches, bus/transportation, after-school care, monthly cost of school supplies and bake sales and athletic/music events and field trips etc., monthly cost of clothing and coats and boots and hats and gloves, any sports teams and uniforms and equipment the kids may join, musical instruments and transportation to an from lessons and concerts, birthday parties and having friends over to go swimming, special "things" the kids are required to have for school (such as $95 scientific calculators), tuition and/or school costs, any costs associated with religious schooling (such as catechism or hebrew school) AND the books and materials that go along with that... As you can see, the expenses I've listed are purely those born exclusively by the custodial parent and if they are LUCKY they might be able to beg the other parent into paying for some of it. If we include all of THOSE expenses, let's compare the incomes again:

$90.000
<21,000> IRS
< 1,380> Karate
<15,600> Child Support
$52,020 After tax, CS, Karate

$26,000
15,600 Child Support
<900.00> school lunches ($50/mo/child)
<270.00> bus/transportation ($1.50/day 180days)
<1,440.00> after-school care ($80/mo/child)
<2,080.00> summer care ($130/wk/child 8 wk)
<900.00> school supplies and bake sales and athletic/music events and field trips etc. ($50/mo/child EASILY!)
<600.00> cost of clothing and coats and boots and hats and gloves ($300/child EASILY)
<400.00> sports teams and uniforms and equipment ($100/child to sign up, $100/uniforms and equipment 1 sport/child)
<600.00> musical instruments and transportation to an from lessons and concerts ($50 monthly just in instrument pymts!)
<720.00> birthday parties and having friends over to go swimming ($30/child/mo)
<800.00> special "things" the kids are required to have for school--such as $95 scientific calculators ($95/child 4mo/yr)
<1,000.00> tuition and/or school costs
<2,000.00> any costs associated with religious schooling (such as catechism or hebrew school) AND the books and materials that go along with religious school

$29,890 Income with Child Support

Bare in mind that this is all expenses relating to the children before having to consider groceries, phone bills, electricity and such--because BOTH households have to pay those kinds of bills and thus the point is moot. However, in this example, one household is paying for the little costs of raising children, and the other is paying child support and bitter.

I'm sorry. I just DO NOT buy into the argument that their incomes are anywhere near the same when it comes to expenses for the children.


CJ

I said the income disparity may not be as great as she thinks it is, and I will stand by that. I did not get into expenses of raising children and probably should have not included the karate lessons although it is something he is paying for that the state would never require. In Tennessee they go by the Child support guidelines pretty firmly.

$90,000 Salary of Doofus
21,000 IRS Bill
6,885 SS (7.65)
15,600 Child Support

$46,515 Income

$26,000 Salary of Cinderella
15,600 Child Support Income
-1,989 SS (7.65)

$39,611 Income

(and I see no reason that she does not qualify and get back more than she pays into the IRS with Child care credits, Child tax credits, and earned income credit). After standard deductions and exemptions, the tax on $26,000 would be about $1,000.00. Then child care expenses, child tax credits(I believe it is $1,000 per child), and earned income credits come off of that. Disclaimer: I am not a tax expert and don't wish to be one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

IMHO I have really seen no indication that Doofus is bitter. She herself says he pays on time and more than is required by law. He has 50/50 custody and exercises those rights. He is active in their lives, schooling, etc.. I know at one point she said he picked them up from school everyday which saved her afterschool care expenses.

As far as expenses go, I FEEL that the privilege of being the custodial parent does come at a cost. But note that I do call it a privilege. No doubt about that.

My thinking on this may be a little biased as my husband always paid for his son. If fact to this day, my stepson will tell you that ANYTHING that came up in which money was involved he was told to get it from his dad. However, when he came to live with us at 15, he/we never received one cent. You want to know why (partly), because it was a dream come true for my husband, and he never asked for a penny. He/we considered all the expenses the cost of his dream to have custody.

Back to her current dilema, there is nothing posted so far that shows any indication that the horn deal was anything but an agreement/deal between her and her daughter. She should have had financing worked out before making the deal. She needs to keep her end of the deal and give her the lessons she was promised. If he was not a part of the deal, I think she is way off base to be mad at Doofus or expect his assistance. Of course, if Doofus was a part of this agreement/deal, then he needs to pay half or whatever HE agreed to do.

Doofus was the one who announced that he would not pay part of before or after school care - not mandated in decree because it was not a reality at the time. He had said he would not pay for expenses he had initially agreed to pay for - unless I paid half - didn't matter that one year the cost went from $100 for the school year to $400 for the school hear. He started paying for a portion of some extracurriculars. And he balks on this. This is as important to her as chess club to son - more academically related - and he refuses this after demanding that I pay half of chess when he had not been expecting that from me.

He does not pay alimony. And he and wife are trying to save up for the downpayment on a house. What did he do with the $15K I gave him as payoff to get a quit-claim deed on the marital home? Buy his Volvo?

Most likely he smiled all the way to the Volvo dealership.

If he's getting anal about this, I say talk to the lawyer. See how the decree will be viewed by court and how their perceptions are. And we carry the brunt.

For example, my x went on and on about how he wants to pay for expensive private schools for my son and now that ow/w is preggers and about to drop bambino 2, he is suddenly saying he wants to send son to public kindergarten near by his house. He got in final papers, the final decision of son's education by way of saying he was responsible for all of son's educational expenses and was going on and on and on about paying for this 10k a year private school. Now the attitude change b/c of the golddigger-ho wife. Do I understand the volvo concept? Sure do.

And I am getting my lawyers to work on this to as xh is to consult with me and we are to decide together before any firm decision is made. I say no b/c this is also reason my child support is less. He figured in cost of tuition to be part of child support that he is paying to school NOT TO ME. We need legal rethink here.

what I really think we need is on the job accidents for these men who are living examples of why there should be retroactive birth control.

I've thought it over.

I think we all lost sight of the topic of this thread.

The topic is not whether or not he should help.
the topic is not whether or not he is paying enough CS.
The topic is not whether or not our incomes are comparably spent on child stuff.

The topic IS how can I reiterate my request and lead him to help his daughter without LBing.

So, have another go at it.

What do you think of my proposed response to his refusal to assist in paying for the lessons?

cinderella,


--After talking with G about her lessons compaired to N karate I feel that if you did her lessons would be fair.

TR--Did he also talk to son about HIS lessons??
if not why not?? And how is N's karate different than the music lessons?

--If I had all the money in the world is one thing but I do not. Ns karate lessons, in total, is about $115 per month.--

TR--Okay--so what does this have to do with D's Lesson's?? They are two different children with different abilites, does he feel one has a priority over the other?? like S will go further w/ Karate than D will w/ music??

--I know that Gillians lessons are far less and even half of that is even less but I feel that if you could do her lessions would be fairer to all.

TR--Fairer to who?? Him?? or the kids??


Doofus,

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here--

Karate lessons, are an extra curicular activity--
the Music lesson's are to help her educationally just as the Private School meet's that need with Son--

I'm curious, and really need clarification here, I don't want to take this wrong, are you implying that because they aren't the same type of lessons, they aren't some how of equal importance to each of the children?

**Not sure about the above comment--sounds kind of disrepectful or even manipulative which is not the intent---but could it be worded differently??***


If I felt that I could do this on my own to make sure D could take these lessons--I would, and I would not feel the need to ask you--but because I can't, and because I understand how important they are for her education--I am asking for your help--

Please understand, I am not looking at trying to put a larger financial burden on you but only looking out for what I feel are the best 'needs' for our children--

How's that???

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>