After a fair amount of observation of the interactions that happen here, I have a question.

Why is every area of a WS's life attacked and diminished? I am divorced. I was the WS. And yes, I am responsible for major pain and disruption in myX's life and in my family's life. But does it automatically make me a horrible parent, an inadequate wage earner, a lousy worker at home, an unwise money handler, socially retarded, an insensitive communicator, temper ridden, an overall neglectful, mean person?

Was there anything good about the person before you married? If not, why did you marry? If yes, then some it must still be there.

In my opinion, an affair is a reflection of the dysfunction in the marriage. And while I will not condone its rightness in any way, I believe there are reasons that stem from the condition of the relationship. Instead of resolving those issues in one way or another (sometimes we just dont see the issues clearly) we fill those empty places with another relationship. It is wrong and the consequences most often are horrific. But does that make the WS inept, disgusting, and ill intentioned in every area of his/her life?

I am wondering why people spend numerous hours here discussing over and over again the frailties of an XS. Wouldnt it hasten healing to let go a little and seek to see that the WS is not damaged in every area..to see the good too...and to begin to forgive the area that was damaged?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by IVgiven:
<strong> After a fair amount of observation of the interactions that happen here, I have a question.

Why is every area of a WS's life attacked and diminished? I am divorced. I was the WS. And yes, I am responsible for major pain and disruption in myX's life and in my family's life. But does it automatically make me a horrible parent, an inadequate wage earner, a lousy worker at home, an unwise money handler, socially retarded, an insensitive communicator, temper ridden, an overall neglectful, mean person? "I'LL TACKLE THIS ONE, FOR STARTERS." NO IT DOES NOT. HOWEVER, I CAN SAY THAT COLLECTIVELY, WHEN YOU TAKE THE SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE DIFFERENT PERSONS HERE WHO LEFT THEIR MATES AND ADD THEIR ACTIONS UP, YOU CAN SAY THAT THOSE ACTIONS ALL ARE WHAT THE WS'S LIFES HAVE BECOME. IN MY CASE, MY WIFE MARRIED THE OTHER MAN. THAT DID NOT MAKE HER ALL OF THOSE THINGS. HOWEVER, THE ABOVE-MENTIONED THINGS DO DESCRIBE HER ACTIONS BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER OUR DIVORCE."

Was there anything good about the person before you married? If not, why did you marry? If yes, then some it must still be there. YES THERE WAS LOTS OF GOOD IN HER. HOWEVER, SOMETHING IN HER CHANGED - HER ACTIONS CHANGED. SHE IS STILL THE SAME PERSON, BUT HER ACTIONS WEREN'T.

In my opinion, an affair is a reflection of the dysfunction in the marriage. And while I will not condone its rightness in any way, I believe there are reasons that stem from the condition of the relationship. Instead of resolving those issues in one way or another (sometimes we just dont see the issues clearly) we fill those empty places with another relationship. It is wrong and the consequences most often are horrific. But does that make the WS inept, disgusting, and ill intentioned in every area of his/her life? I WOULD SAY NOT IN EVERY AREA, BUT A LOT OF AREAS. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THEIR ACTIONS.

I am wondering why people spend numerous hours here discussing over and over again the frailties of an XS. Wouldnt it hasten healing to let go a little and seek to see that the WS is not damaged in every area..to see the good too...and to begin to forgive the area that was damaged? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do agree: forgiveness is best. It's hard, but it is best. The worst thing is, after forgiveness, the continuing FALLOUT of the Divorce never ends. In my case, my ex-Wife turned my kids against me, using every chance to point out to them how horrible I was and for every single thing that didn't go right in her new life, it was my fault. Those are the actions of a person who can't accept responsibility for her actions. I say that not every Wandering Spouse acts the same way. It all depends on the person. It is the sheer SELFISHNESS of what they did - throwing their Sacred Vows (which when said were supposed to mean forever) out the window.
Harold

I have always said that my X or almost is a great dad. He gives me than he has too.

Did he set a good example for them? NO. Is he still the person I wanted them to grow up like? NO.

And for the most part I always have acknowledge my part that led up to his A. I forgave him a very long time ago for that, now some of his continuting behavior I have a harder time dealing with.

I can see where you are coming for; however, until you have been a BS you have no clue the pain and hurt the BS feels.

I personally felt like my heart had been ripped out and I was left for dead. And everything I ever believed in was destoried. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

yes...the fallout seems to last forever..even when you think it is finally over.

It just seems so counterproductive to keep on and on with the shortcomings of the WS. It seems a wise thing to look at oneself and see what what was negatively contributed and begin to fix it and concentrate on growing and maturing (learning from the mistakes) so that the mistakes arent repeated in future relationships. This esp applies to the WS.

Some stay here a long time and never seem to move past blaming the WS...however deserving he/she might be...ya know?

Was it hard for you when she actually married OM?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by IVgiven:
<strong> Why is every area of a WS's life attacked and diminished? I am divorced. I was the WS. And yes, I am responsible for major pain and disruption in myX's life and in my family's life. But does it automatically make me a horrible parent, an inadequate wage earner, a lousy worker at home, an unwise money handler, socially retarded, an insensitive communicator, temper ridden, an overall neglectful, mean person? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, being a WS does not automatically make you these things...you have to earn them over time. For example, my WS walked out on the kids and I not once but twice and left for six month periods to have his affairs. Each time he took the time to convince me that I should quit my job to work at his business, then he left us with no money, no way to run the business, and offered no financial support or assistance whatsoever. It truly seemed as if we didn't exist and he could not care less whether we lived or died or starved.

Over time, he has ignored his children, spent little or no time with them (although he has free access to them any time he wants), and has no desire whatsoever to admit that his actions caused his children considerable pain and anguish and he needs to deal with that. He has no clue the amount of time and energy and love and money that it takes to raise children because he has not been there to raise them. If there is discipline to be doled out, he disappears and it's up to me, yet he's there to take them to Disney or buy them the "thing" I told them they could not have or had to earn.

During the court case, he deliberately closed his business that earned $7500/mo. and took a job earning $1100/mo so that his CS would be low. He deliberately lied on his financial affadivits and yes I can prove it based on years of past taxes and current business and personal bank records. Once the divorce was final and CS was established, miraculously he started up his business again and is now earning $6000+ /mo. because he lost a few customers...but he does have new sales and it's reasonable to believe he'll be back up to $7500+ by the end of 2004. Yet he told the kids TO THEIR FACES that he would never pay anything toward them or their support until a judge forced him to...and he didn't. He doesn't pay any alimony, and frankly, I let it go because it wasn't worth the fight--it was easier in my mind to let him go, get him out of my life, and struggle financially. He doesn't recognize that I put him through college or helped him build his business, so he doesn't owe me ANYTHING.

It has been documented that he spends his money in sprees, because he is diagnosed bipolar...and when he is manic, he tends to buy houses, cars, or 10 season tickets to football when there are only 3 people in the family. I don't mean to be mean, but he can't afford braces (maybe $3k) but he can afford a two week vacation to DisneyWorld ($10k at least). See?? My WS earned it!! And it wasn't just one incident or a series of poor judgements a couple of times. It has been ongoing and repeated!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Was there anything good about the person before you married? If not, why did you marry? If yes, then some it must still be there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course there was something good about the person before I married him! And guess what...it IS still there! He is tall and handsome. He has a very funny sense of humor. He works very hard and is ambitious. He is very neat and clean (and I like that). He likes a lot of the same things that I like (sports, TV, movies, Star Trek). He is VERY smart and probably the only person I have ever met who can keep up with me. He is stimulating mentally. These attributes are still there. But IVGiven, you are missing a big point...HUGE. I'm not the one who "fell out of love" with him. I saw his faults and loved him anyway...and when he was diagnosed with mental illnesses and stuff I loved him anyway...and when I could see that there were problems, I did not run away into the arms of another--I stood and honored my vows and loved him anyway. HE is the one who could no longer see MY good side and the things he married me for. They are still there, but he was blinded by his OW and could not see them.

BTW, I am smart, funny, playful, calm, easy-going, short, cute, spiritual, and enjoy life. I like to play and watch sports; I like dog shows; I'm a movie fanatic; I love to kid around and make people laugh; I adore my children and enjoy spending time with them and their friends; and I want to be a better person AND I move toward that on a daily basis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>In my opinion, an affair is a reflection of the dysfunction in the marriage. And while I will not condone its rightness in any way, I believe there are reasons that stem from the condition of the relationship. Instead of resolving those issues in one way or another (sometimes we just dont see the issues clearly) we fill those empty places with another relationship. It is wrong and the consequences most often are horrific. But does that make the WS inept, disgusting, and ill intentioned in every area of his/her life?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it doesn't, and I have to tell you that I understand where a WS is coming from more than you might think. I get it. There is something wrong in the marriage and rather than saying or doing anything, the WS bears it silently for years and builds resentment. After so much resentment and pain are associated with the BS, the WS does not feel love for the BS anymore. Suddenly someone enters the WS's life who CARES (or at least acts like they do). The OP listens, and understands, and commiserates, and PLUS the OP finds you interesting, smart and attractive. The WS feels a little like a person who has been wandering in a desert who just found water.

I can honestly say that I do not fault WS's for being human, falling into a trap, and making a mistake. To me, that is completely understandable. And I must admit, if my WS had come to me before the A(s) and said to me: "I really feel bad. Something is majorly wrong and I want to feel close to you and loving toward you and I don't" I would have listened. I would have done my best to do something about it! And if my WS had come to me after the A(s) and said: "I have made a major mistake. I felt so hurt and disconnected from you that I turned to another woman, and I'm ashamed to admit that I slept with her. I want to feel close to YOU and loved by YOU, but I didn't" I would have listened because I get that. Now, I would not have been happy but I would have understood.

I think what I found the most hurtful was not that my WS had the A, but that he tried to tell me I was crazy (or suspicious or jealous), and when I discovered "proof" tried to blame me, and when I asked for the truth he offered lies that I based my decisions on, and then he tried to tell me that *I* was the sick one!! Nope, the A itself is not the issue...it's that once the mistake is discovered, the lying and blaming and covering up continued and continued. I could have dealt with "I have decided I don't want to be in this marriage anymore because I want to be with X"--but instead I got "I want the marriage, I just don't want to participate in any way, change in any way, or meet any of your needs" and "I didn't do anything you didn't make me do" and any number of ways to lie, cheat and steal his way out of admitting that he made a mistake!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I am wondering why people spend numerous hours here discussing over and over again the frailties of an XS. Wouldnt it hasten healing to let go a little and seek to see that the WS is not damaged in every area..to see the good too...and to begin to forgive the area that was damaged? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I have to tell you something funny. I have been on this board for four years now, and I don't usually spend all my time discussing the frailites of my exH. This particular time I started the "Are Ex's Emotionally Retarded" thread because I was amused at my exH and how clueless he was to the damage he causes on a daily basis to his own children. I honestly was just wondering if other people also found their ex's to be as emotionally unaware, or if it was just me.

In my day-to-day life, I actually do live 3 miles from my exH, and I make a concerted, daily decision to treat him politely, respectfully and civilly. If you asked any of my kids or co-workers, they would all say that my exH and I are friends, because I still like him even though he treated me like dirt.

See, IVGiven, this is the only place I let out a little of that frustration and hurt. In real life, I think my exH did the best that he could and the best that he knew how to do. He has multiple issues in his life that would cripple most, and so I just try to take that into account when I interact with him. I don't take it personally, he's just manic...something like that. By the same token, what is past is past and will never be changed, so there's no point in dwelling on it. What matters is how I act today and how I treat him now...and I have NO (ZIP, ZERO, NADA)control over how he treats me or his children. I can only take care of my side of the road and then laugh at how clueless he can be sometimes.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by IVgiven:
<strong> yes...the fallout seems to last forever..even when you think it is finally over.

Some stay here a long time and never seem to move past blaming the WS...however deserving he/she might be...ya know?

Was it hard for you when she actually married OM? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi IVgiven! No, it was not hard for me - I was already well into Divorce Recovery. Plus, the fact that I lived 4,300 miles from her helped too!
Forgiveness, Prayer, Friends&Family Support, and Support from your Church sure do help a lot as well.
I am not 'better than anyone else' here - but I try to post suggestions, help, etc. based on my experiences as I went thru Divorce Country.
JMHO, Harold

Faithfulwife - you seem to have such a good attitude. One would hope that all WS's are not like your X..that for the most part they are usually good people, too, who take wrong turns and end up on a destructive path. I am grateful as I think my X and I have a certain degree of respect for each other...each knowing that we were (are) basically good people...not evildoers or intentionally malicious. Makes it easier to move on...for both of us.

Max - the WS needs all the same things as you do..support, forgiveness, God, prayer, etc. Sometimes I wonder if not more. The guilt is incredible...and the ever present knowledge that "I caused this" is sometimes paralyzing. If not for those things in my life as well, I wonder just how I would have made it through it all. You sound strong now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by IVgiven:
<strong>

Why is every area of a WS's life attacked and diminished? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For my part (and I'm an "old-timer," I guess), my XW had some good qualities. She had a great deal of innner strength, a positive attitude in the face of failure, and an uncompromising and indomitable spirit.

She is also a pathological liar.

As much as I admired her strength, it didn't mean I was willing to forgive the fact that she lied about EVERYTHING in our relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I am divorced. I was the WS. And yes, I am responsible for major pain and disruption in myX's life and in my family's life. But does it automatically make me a horrible parent, an inadequate wage earner, a lousy worker at home, an unwise money handler, socially retarded, an insensitive communicator, temper ridden, an overall neglectful, mean person? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, but I would hazard a guess that being responsible for the pain and suffering you caused through your infidelity should count for something.

Are you a lousy person? No, but you've done a lousy thing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Was there anything good about the person before you married? If not, why did you marry? If yes, then some it must still be there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said, I admired my XW's ability to deal with adversity. I also loved her with all my heart and soul. Yet as I alluded to above, my relationship with her was based upon lies.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
In my opinion, an affair is a reflection of the dysfunction in the marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree. A marriage can be hopelessly dysfunctional, yet not lead to an affair. What you seem to be saying is that a dysfunctional marriage necessitates or somehow justifies an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> And while I will not condone its rightness in any way, I believe there are reasons that stem from the condition of the relationship. Instead of resolving those issues in one way or another (sometimes we just dont see the issues clearly) we fill those empty places with another relationship.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you seem to be justifying the affair by saying that an affair is the natural consequence of a failed relationship.

In a way, you DO condone affairs as a result of the inability of people to resolve their relationship issues.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> It is wrong and the consequences most often are horrific. But does that make the WS inept, disgusting, and ill intentioned in every area of his/her life?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is wrong and horrific. Does that make you inept, disgusting, and mean? Maybe not...but it DOES make your ACTIONS wrong and horrific.

Are you a low-life who smells bad and molests little children because you cheated?

Of course not. But are you a cheater who had an affair and wrecked your marriage?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I am wondering why people spend numerous hours here discussing over and over again the frailties of an XS. Wouldnt it hasten healing to let go a little and seek to see that the WS is not damaged in every area..to see the good too...and to begin to forgive the area that was damaged? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm wondering why a WS would come to these forums defending the cheaters and demanding that BS's forgive their wayward spouses...wouldn't it help hasten the healing if the WS would stop cheating and blaming the horrible state of their relationship for their infidelity?

That is an excellent question.

I think that one thing important to recognize is that, if the M wasn't working for one spouse, it probably wasn't working for the other. The other person just didn't have an affair as a way to deal with it.

In my case, I clung to the idea that I was too controlling, that Tom needed his downtime, and if I just could not be so demanding or upset, then things would be OK.

When the affair got exposed, then my whole view of Tom changed. It wasn't just the affair. It was that I put up with so much to try to make our marriage work -- and here he was going to the woods with a married woman, then coming home, telling me "Leave me alone", and going downstairs after dinner to watch TV. He was also bringing up Sophia and telling me "nothing happened."

In my case, a broken arm was emotionally inconsequential -- and that broken arm required 3 surgeries and put me in a cast or splint immobilizing my entire arm up past my elbow from December 17, 2001 through April 3, 2002 -- it was a big deal -- but I was overwhelmed dealing with the fact that Tom (as I thought) had gotten emotionally involved with another woman. I think that the WS vastly underestimates the impact of an affair on a BS.

To dwell on the faults of another, that is certainly a waste of time. I like one of Harley's rule about the enemies of good conversation -- don't dwell on mistakes of the past.

This forum is a great way for me to vent without venting to him. I've done enough of that. After nearly two years, I am more focused, finally, on how to make our relationship romantic than on the fact that Tom had a romantic relationship with someone else while we were married.

<small>[ January 17, 2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

IVgiven, thank you for what you said, 'you sound strong now' - I do appreciate that. It has been a very long road I've been down, and I am sure it hasn't been easy for my ex either.
I am not strong because of me, but because of Prayer. (I'm not trying to 'proslytize' anyone here) And only God got me thru all this. And yes, I do pray for my ex and her new Family - no I'm not the best Christian around - Lord knows I have plenty of faults though, but I find that honestly praying for my ex-wife and her Family does help me continue in my Healing Journey.
God bless,
Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is every area of a WS's life attacked and diminished? I am divorced. I was the WS. And yes, I am responsible for major pain and disruption in myX's life and in my family's life. But does it automatically make me a horrible parent, an inadequate wage earner, a lousy worker at home, an unwise money handler, socially retarded, an insensitive communicator, temper ridden, an overall neglectful, mean person?

Was there anything good about the person before you married? If not, why did you marry? If yes, then some it must still be there.

In my opinion, an affair is a reflection of the dysfunction in the marriage. And while I will not condone its rightness in any way, I believe there are reasons that stem from the condition of the relationship. Instead of resolving those issues in one way or another (sometimes we just dont see the issues clearly) we fill those empty places with another relationship. It is wrong and the consequences most often are horrific. But does that make the WS inept, disgusting, and ill intentioned in every area of his/her life?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">first, having an affair is in itself a dysfunctional method of solving a problem. Because this method was chosen, the interpretation is that the person is dysfunctional in some way. . .. now, if a WS takes responsibility for his/her actions and does what is needed to repair the damage, then no, they are not a horrible parent, an inadequate wage earner, a lousy worker at home, an unwise money handler, socially retarded, an insensitive communicator, temper ridden, an overall neglectful, mean person.

however, in majority of the cases, the type of person they are is more than just an accidental affair. . . they are usually dysfunctional in other ways, and the items listed are ways in which many of them show other dysfunctions. . . generally, many of them have borderline or full blown disorders, or many of them have learned these dysfunctional issues by passing them down through generations. . .

so no,not all of them are, but you have to remember that the people here usually have dealt with many severely dysfunctional types, not just the accidental affairs, but generally the societal dysfunctional personalities. . ..

in general.

wiftty

and one more point, if in general they weren't dysfunctional, then they still would not be a problem after the divorce. . . which many of them usually are. . . disrespectful of agreements, of parental responsibilities, and towards others. . .

so the dysfunctionalities never seem to leave. . .

wiftty

I am not defending anyone...only asking why a WS's entire life is wrong...from parenting to money and everything in between because he/she had an affair.

If you read closely you will understand that I do not defend the WS or justify divorce. In fact, maybe you misunderstood. I did not say that that an affair was the natural consequence of a failed relationship. What I did say was that an affair is the reflection of the relationship. Some resort to affairs, some understand enough to resolve issues as they occur, others retreat and grin and bear it...etc. It is one consequence.

But if one begins with the affair and works their way back , the reason behind the action is almost always some dysfunction in the marriage....even if the WS is totally a bad person. Someone living with him/her would have to have seen the signs of his/her dysfunction.

I do not condone affairs...but one must expect some negative action by himself or the other, if relationship issues are not resolved. The action may not be an affair...and often isnt.

You are right. My actions were horrific...and I WAS a cheater. No one knows that better than I. By God's grace and forgiveness I go on.

The previous post was directed to cjack. Also..in the post I mentioned something about not justifying "divorce"....meant to write "affairs". Sorry...just getting used to this.

While I am very glad to see that you say that the affair is wrong, and that you have sought forgiveness for that, it still doesn't take away the pain.

I forgave my xh and keep on having to do so because if I did not, it would eat me up inside. Why? The man just keeps doing damaging things to his son, self, and life. Like running off and marrying the preggo ow and not telling anybody including his own son.

But when there is an affair and a family is torn asunder, it is what it is. We do move past what you've done. We do. But it is incredibly painful and may trigger emotions in us that will happen on and off maybe for the rest of our lives. Sure, we get over it but do we forget it? That's important to note. Just because forgiveness exists and life moves ahead and goes on, doesn't mean that every once and a while we, the BS will have a painful memory or see something that reminds them of what happened. It can't be swept under the rug.

My x likes to think he's forgiven and while he is, he believes it should be FORGOTTEN as well. That shall be forever impossible. I look at him and see who he has become and how he's changed. Sure in the beginning he was perceived by me as totally different. Over time he changed back into the person he always was...he only pretended to be this wonderful caring man...He is who he really is now and I am ok with that..Realized I can't feel responsible for his choices. While I think every BS has some area to work on, my not cooking dinner for him one night did not cause the man to run out and unzip his fly and break our vows. He did what he did because HE WANTED TO. He also found EXCUSES for what he did. And HE ZEROED IN ON THEM AND USED THE OLE' SPIN AND BLAME GAME. I believed it hook, line and sinker. If he said I didn't listen, then I would really listen. If he said I didn't cook enough, then I'd cook feasts. But it did not matter. He had excuses to go out and chase women and had two regular mistresses. More that were short term, but two that helped convince him he should walk out on his family and when I tried to work though things with him, he only became angry at me, the person who really cared for him then, and abusive.

And me? I am for sure getting ahead but do vent from time to time at the outrageousness and audacity of the things he's doing now that affect my son's life and want to get friends here to help me through this phase in my life as I put together the pieces and move ahead..

I am not being cruel nor mean and I am glad you've found faith. But remember, when His blood washes over and forgives you, the sin is forgiven but the side effects of that sin remain unfortunately.

Well...my ex is all of the bad things you listed and more. Amazing?? Yes, but true.

Not all marriages are dysfunctional or wouldn't be dysfunctional and not all ex's are good people.

My ex was basically good to me before we got married. It was after we got married that he became abusive, a drunk and an addict. He had always drank and smoked pot socially but it got really bad later on.

And I could have more good to say about him if he wasn't a lousy father. He doesn't see my kids,& I have to fight to get what little child support I get. He wasn't physically abusive towards my kids but he was emotionally and verbally abusive. He's one of thos poeple that likes to make people miserable.

When I post stuff here about him, it's a vent. I need to talk to someone about it. After that, I'm back to trying to forget that he exists.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

An affair can come in many forms--alcohol, drugs, porn, work, your activities, their kids, kids activities, and even another person--(i'm sure there are others, but these come to the top of my head)

people run from marriage problems in many ways--and are just as DYSFUNCTIONAL as the one who happened to meet someone else!!

Many people here only look at those who have had 'other person' affairs to be the only people that are dysfunctional--they don't look at their own actions of things that have taken them away from the marriage in the same light--they say it's NOT the same---I didn't have an "Affair" but in reality---if they placed those things BEFORE their marriage---they were affairs of the heart just as an emotional affair w/ another person--
as those things took priority over their marriages
they were putting all their time, energy and emotions into those other things--and not leaving any for their marriages--

And because they can't see how their own actions are JUST as bad--they have a more difficult time getting over the hurt--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by IVgiven:
<strong> I am not defending anyone...only asking why a WS's entire life is wrong...from parenting to money and everything in between because he/she had an affair. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IVGiven,

I think you may have misinterpreted something here. I will go out on a limb and venture to say that most of us who are BS's here understand that having an A if a BIG mistake--yet it is a mistake like any other mistake. After any person makes a dumb choice or has a lapse of judgement, then they have the opportunity afterward to admit they made a mistake, learn from the mistake, not do it again, and do what needs to be done to repair the damage. I bet you that most of the BS's here have some part of them that WISHES that is what their WS had done.

A WS's entire life is not wrong because he/she had an A! Personally, I think that almost anybody, in the right circumstances, has the potential within them to have an A, because everyone is a fallible human being. Speaking personally, I come here and whine about my EX about everything from parenting to money and everything in between because he continues to deny, cover-up, blame and do the exact same mistakes over and over again.

IVGiven, you were a human and you made a very poor choice with dire consequences. At any point, you could have chosen to see the error of your ways, stopped doing it even though it hurts to stop, and made the attempt to repair the damage that was done. (I'm not speaking toward whether your ex would have accepted the repairs here--just that you could have done your part to make things right). That would have taken extreme courage to face yourself and face those you had hurt. If, in all good conscience, you can say to yourself that you DID see the error of your ways, and you DID stop your A even though you missed your OP and the feeling of being understood, and you DID make the attempt to repair the damage that was done, then personally, I think you are a fine human being.

OTOH, if you blamed your ex for your decisions and continue to do so to this day...if you look at all HER faults and do not work on yourself...if you continued your A "because it made you happy" and did not care about the hurt and pain your were causing your children...if you justified destroying your family...if you made no attempt to understand the pain your had caused your BS...if you did not tell your BS a thousand times that s/he was too valuable to you to be treated like this and you loved him/her (over and over and over)...if you did not understand and allow him/her to be angry with you for have you behaved...if you did not work on yourself to understand why you did this so that you never do it again...and if you continue to act out and behave selfishly...

then I would say that your entire life was wrong, from parenting to money and everything else in between!

Honestly, I think it has very little to do with being a WS and/or having an A, and much, MUCH more to do with how our ex's are living RIGHT NOW, and how they make their choices RIGHT NOW.

Okay???


CJ

I'll give the reason's I have railed( and still do) against my x. It's because she is 180 degrees from the person I married(now that her omhh is gone she about 90 degrees out of kilter).

She became and remains very selfish and has placed her job and herself above the kids. She is doing a little better in this area.

She called today to ask if I would take the kids back tommorrow instead of Tues because someone at work was out. This after a couple weeks ago accusing me of only taking the kids when it was convient for me!

She has turned her back on her religion and all her friends.

She also caused me a lot of pain during our limited attempts as counseling with personal attacks.

She has bascially caused me to feel like the 20 yrs we shared were all a big lie. Outside of our kids, there is nothing.

As forgiveness, I'm not there yet. When she pulls stunts like I mentioned above, it just delays it further.

I vent here as many do. Sometimes people do stay too long and get stuck with just bashing. A lot do move on.

BS get demonized also, on other sites that are more supportive/oriented to the issues of ws. This is a site populated (mostly) by the bs member of marriages experienceing infidelity. Human nature being what it is, and rejection being as painful as it is, it is inevitable that many will choose to disparage their ws and use the infidelity to justify a whole range of negative characterization of the ws....In part because they are hurt and lash out (unfairly), but also in some cases to minimize their own (often substantial) contribution to the marital failure (which is what infidelity is...both a inappropriate personal choice usually...and a marital failure).

However, many people here also have truly unworthy (in a marital sense) spouses, who exhibit a wide range (or the whole range) of dysfunctional/irresponsible behaviors. I suspect the numbers are skewed upwards because you tend to see more of the hard cases here... the more salvageable marriages probably find counselling etc. (more often) before desperation brings them here.

IMO infidelity in and of itself is just a thing, normal behavior at an inappropriate time. What is important is why it occured, and what ALL parties (not the ws) do about it. That has to be judged on a person by person, and case by case, basis....and by criteria other than the fact of infidelity. I do think it is fair (means makes sense) to consider under most normal circumstances (meaning the bs is not a dysfunctional abusive individual themself) to realize the bs has been injured by the ws, and that the ws has an ethical obligation to acknowledge this and make what ammends are appropriate (and possible)...including at the least apologies, honesty (filling in the blanks to restore dignity), patience (for a time) with hurtful behavior upon the ws, appropriate restoration (such as honesty with others as needed on behalf of the bs, possibly financial issues, etc.), and an explanation (as best the ws can muster) as to why the ws left the marriage, and additional discussion what is to happen re the marriage. I also think it is appropriate to expect less consideration in a subsequent divorce.

What I don't think makes any sense is for a bs to adopt an expectation of entitlement. People are not property, one does not own a spouse. People "hurt" each other in a myriad of ways, an infidelity is no where near the worse. But the point is, people are sovereign individuals.. we come and go as we choose, in the manner we choose, in all things....careers, religious beliefs, where we live, who we marry, activities/hobbies/sports, who we associate with, what causes we support, what politics we choose...and who we choose to enter relationships with. Hopefully, despite the unhappy (or possibly dysfunctiona) marriage one is experienceing, the ws realizes (in the aftermath) they made a choice with consequences that affects others and requires ammends. But they are not required to restore/returnTo the marriage...that is an entirely different matter, and is dependent on the outcome of the (hopefully) honest and healthy assessment of both idividuals wothiness as marital partners and BOTH their desires to remain married given the outcome of that assessment.

I have stated this somewhat clinically, but the upshot is marriage makes little sense unless it is a living circumstance both enthusiastically want to be in, and if the bs (or ws) does not...it ends, but should not end with hard feelings or vindictiveness....you can't own someone, and one must be prepared to let someone go if that is what they want, not guilt/coerce/manipulate them into remaining in an intimate relationship with you. Some bs seem to think a ws not wishing to maintain the marriage is automatically evil, and use the fact of the infidelity to prove this mindset. It is not hard to understand why such bs (and their marriages) broke down in the first place, infidelity or not.