My wife & I have been married for 4 1/2 years. Exactly one year ago we started going to counseling. There were issues such as communication, misunderstandings, etc, that the counselor says we should work on, standard stuff. During this time my wife took a night class in law enforcement (15 hrs a week). I felt she was ignoring me, by spending time with her new friends. Well one day during the summer, I became suspicious of all the time she was spending with her 'new' friends. I had only met a few of them. I noticed that she would come from work 30 min early, take a bath, fix her hair, put on make up, etc. I guess she was doing that before, but she didn't change her schedule to give her an extra 30 min until that summer. Well, in addition to what I thought was too much preparation for a night class, she would also put on thongs. Her reasoning was to hide her panty line. I would ask, 'why are you getting so glammed up & wearing those thongs'. She would get angry about it. Later that summer, I found some notes she had written to other guys in her class. She kept them, why I don't know. She mentioned in her notes about some thongs that 'had your name on them' & a note about being spanked. One note from a guy stated to 'lets go in another room'. Well I hit the roof. We were going to couseling at the time & she said thats the way police people joke around. That it was all a joke. I didn't leave it at that. I got her to confess later at home, that it had been going on for awhile & that she liked the attention & looked forward to it. That she didn't get attention like that when she was in high school & now she is thinner, she likes it. I was devastated. October came, we had been going to couseling for 7 months. I got another job in a nother town, which required me to live elsewhere. We left counseling feeling good. She was to move also & be with me. During december, after her class graduated, she changed her mind. She didn't want to move. This past New Years eve. We went to a party & I drank too much & passed out. Two weeks later, she mentions to me with a smile (earlier that day we were intimate), that she was unhappy & that she had two paths to choose from. That she might regret choosing one over the other. One of the main issues was the fact I passed out at the New Years Eve party when 12 am rolled around. She explained that new years eve is a special night for her. Today it has progressed to the point she sees us as being separated. Still claiming new years eve & the fact I "controlled" her by asking her about her underwear last year. I am shocked beyond belief. I am tore down. I haven't been able to talk to her about any of this. She just refuses to communicate about it.

Jeffrey,
Can't give you many words of wisdom -I am not much better off than you, but I can at least say you're not alone. How are you reacting to her in all of this? Are you doing what she would consider to be "smothering her"? You mentioned she claimed you are at times controlling (meaning that you don't turn the other way and ignore her bad behavior!). It's probably time to start a plan A if you haven't already.
Do you know what her intentions are with this separation? Is she working towards divorce or reconciliation? It sounds like you guys have not gotten down to the root of whatever is causing the problems, since the reasons she gives you are very surface type things.
Hope this helps just a little. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe I am smothering her now. I didn't 4 months ago. I would only come home on the weekends to see her, since my job was so far away.
Now I guess I am trying to reach out to her. I have sent her flowers on valentines day. I even went by to see her on valentines night, but she was going to a party of a male classmate. This hurt me deeply. She got so drunk she had to stay until the next afternoon. She emailed me all about it, what she drank, etc. Awful.

I am just wondering - is the drinking and stuff something rather new to your wife, or is it something she has always done or done before? The reason I ask is that my WH began partying and drinking last year after having never done it before that. (He is 25 now and was 19 when we narried). The drinking and trying to live the single life is for him, is part od his rebellion against his current life and values, which he sees as unfulfilling and restrictive. The new behaviors went right along with our marriage problems. He started the partying about a month before he told me he didn't think he loved me anymore. Also, I think part of him is trying desperately to hold onto the youthful single life he thinks he missed out on as he sees his youth beginning to slip away. It's like, if I don't experience it now, I will never get to.
I wonder if any of this pertains to your wife.
She apparantly takes pleasure in hurting you by telling you about what she is doing. Maybe she felt neglected and unipmortant during your marriage, and this is her way od getting attention from you, and feeling valued.
I know that for me, since my WH has shown no interest in what I do or do not do for so long, that makes me feel very worthless. I have done some things that are uncharacteristic of me in the past few months and told him the details, hoping for just a twinge of jealousy from him, but I get nothing. The message this sends to me is that I am worthless to him. In your situation, I think your wife needs to see that you are not getting your feathers ruffled over it because that seems to be her motive in telling you, and possibly in eben doing it in the first place. Chance are, if you distance yourself from her a little, she will try to bridge the gap.
I myself have decided not to do any more nice things for WH. For months I waited on him hand and foot, left love notes and initiated sex every night, etc. He did not appreciate any of it, and if anything it made him pull further away. So, I have decided that I now have enough self respect that I am not going to throw away my acts of love and kindess on someone who spits on them. Maybe when he doesen't have them anymore, he will see ehat he had. Maybe not. But I know, for my own emotional health, I am done with letting my heart be trampled on.
I think you need to start creating an image of yourself to project to her that says, "I love you, and I want to be married to you, but I am strong and I will not let you walk all over me nor will I sit around worrying about you or wondering what you are doing. I am not going to chase you, take your freedom, and decide which you like better - your space or me and our marriage." Not necessarily saying those words, but giving her that kind of message.

Thanks for your insight. I think you hit the nail on the head. She never really had a group of friends before that she could hang out with & drink. We did all kinds of stuff together. Just after she dropped the bomb on me, we went camping, horseback riding, dining out, & shopping. It was though nothing was wrong. Then she lays it on me again that 'by doing those things with me, you were just trying to buy back my love'. Stunned, i thought, were did your love go in the first place. That day she dropped the bomb on me, we were intimate & told each other we loved the other. Her actions confused me that day. Maybe she was being intimate 'for one last time' in her mind. That thought alone makes me sad.

When they are in the fog, NOTHING nice you do matters. They will always find a way to twist it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And they also have to blame-shift in order to feel better about themselves and what they are doing. I have experienced all that with my WH. I don't feel like I have any good advice. For me, I have decided to stop doing any of those nice things until he can appreciate it and stop accusing me of selfish motives. I have 180'd and I can't ecommend that more highly.

Thanks for understanding. I will try to do the 180. Right now she wants tobe left alone, even from her family. She has gotten in arguments with her father, him telling her 'go to hell'. Now she is planning on seeing a psych. for depression. Which is something I suspected a while back. After talking with our counselor, he suggested to her that we make appts to talk to each other only about the issues at hand. This will force her ,I guess, to talk about whats on her mind. Its hard living with someone who won't talk about what is bothering them. When there is something bothering them, it contains past greivances that supposedly we got thru by going to couseling in the first place. Its a no win situation. I can't defend or change what was done in the past. A person can make up there mind by being so focused, that they disregard other facts that play in the situation. Tunnel vision.

Yeah, that's what was happeneing with us too. Every time we tried to talk about why things were the way they were, H always brought up past issues we had supposedly already worked out/talked about in counseling, etc. I would say, "what will be the magic number of apologies that you will finally accept?" How many times can you genuinely say you're sorry for the same things? I finally told him I'm not apologizing any more. He can choose to accept what I've said in the past or not. It is SO frustrating, because like you said, there is nothing you can do to change the past no matter how much you may want to.
You know what's funny though? After months of H bringing up these past issues, after he realized I was sincere and really sorry, he realized he couldn't use them against me anymore so you know what he did? He told me it wasn't about all that, that he didn't even think about the past any more! Definitely a no win situation for me.
I have realized that there is nothing I can do to change his mind if it's already made up. Only he can see the light. All I can do is help facilitate that by staying out of his face and giving him the space that will hopefully allow his eyes to be opened. But I have stopped being desperate for that and have moved into a place of acceptance, knowing that he may never see, and that if that happens I will be OK. I know I have a lot to give and I will be happy again down the road. He, on the other hand, is miserable with HIMSELF and there will be no happiness in that. It actually makes me feel kind of sorry for him
How did I get into all that about myself? Oh well, at least you know there are others who are going through the same thing...

I feel for you. We don't have any children, so there is less confusion. I believe my wife thinks she has missed out on things in lfe, similar to a mid-life crisis that middle aged men go thru. They believe the same thing. I've been reading the divorce remedy & busting books, they really describe my situation accurately. My wife's complaints seem to be all over the place. Never reaally focusing on one particular thing. Its past stuff that I never knew bothered her. Its not like we ever had arguments about them either. I mean, when I found those notes, I let her have it. I got angry right then & told her I was going to leave her. That she should know better than to engage in activities such as that. Later that day or week, I got thru it & forgave her. I didn't keep to myself for 2 months & then drop the bomb on her, like she has done to me. It just keeps boiling in her mind thinking about issues for weeks & months. I believe her idea is that she doesn't want to feel uncomfortable in confronting me, so she puts it off. Thats kinnda selfish. She doesn't want to feel bad about herself. You have to deal with things as they happen.

Yeah, that's what WH does too. He let it all build for a year and a half before he let it out in the form of, "I don't think I love you anymore". And he did the same thing the past 7 months. He is too cowardly to tell me the truth and he blames it on me, saying it's because I will freak out. In other words he's not willing to deal with the consequences of his actions/feelings. What does he expect? When you tell your wife things like, "I feel nothing for you" "I'm so sick of you" "I'd rather shoot myself than come home to you", etc? I'm going to be just fine with that?
They want to do what they want to do with no consequences - they want to be single! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I understand. My W when she took this night class, met new people & they became a part of her life. She used to talk about them all the time. She even started using their phrases & mimiced their voices. I thought that was weird. She said she had never had friends like this. Friends she had so much in common with. Some of them were guys. I had a problem with that. I especially had a problem after I found the notes & the fact she was dressing up to go to a night class. Who does that anyway? Its a person who desires attention outside the marriage. Who puts the marriage on the same level or lower than her friends relationship. A marriage should come first, regardless if you never had friends in the past. I have know her for 6 1/2 years, they have known her for 1 year, with that being only 15 hours a week.

Seems like it's all about the newness of it. It is new and exciting, and you didn't compare to that. How could you? I am sure that she will eventually realize what she is throwing away. Hopefully it won't be too late. (I have the same concern for us.)
Just do all you can and at least you will have a clear conscience. You will have a chance to be happy again, if not with her then with someone else. I know the thought of someone else used to be very unappealing to me, but I promise, that will go away. You have a bright future ahead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thankyou. All this has happened so suddenly, without warning. I mean I was prepared last year( I bought a Rebuilding book). But the concept of being with some else seems odd. I don't want to start over. My fear is that this can happen again to me. I can't handle it again. This is the 4th major stressful event to happen within one year. 1)feb 2003 -she told me she made an appt to see an attorney (we went to counseling) 2)July- I found her notes she had written to other guys 3)August- I lost my job due to the previous events & 4)Jan 2004- whats happening now. I can't bear doing this again.

Jeffrey,
I know it seems that way, but I promise, it won't be that way forver. Really, really, really, it won't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I can say this because I felt the exact same way, but something happened to me that allowed me to see that it's not true. It's just hard to imagine now because of the situation in and the height of your emotions, along with the fact that every ounce of your being is focused on rebuilding your marriage. But IF things end in divorce, there is someone else out there for you that will make you SO happy, that YOU will make so happy. And just think of everything you know now that you didn't before. Think of the ways you now know to meet ENs and not to Lovebust. Things would be different. So, keep your chin up. Your life is not over - that is something I just learned myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your words of encouragement. My family supports me. Unfortunately most of them want me to leave her. To tell her that if I'm so controlling then why am I filing the papers. I really don't want to do that. I truly believe she is going thru a depression in her life. I think since her class ended in December, thats when it started. She knew she would no longer be around these friends like she did while class was going on. Kinda sad, when your life revolves around your friends & whats happening in their life. I mean I don't think they are mimicing her expressions & quoting her like she does them.

You obviously love her very much, and hopefully one day she will see that. The whole family thing is hard, everyone has their opinion and it can feel like you're being pulled in a thousand directions, even though they have your best interest at heart. My dad has actually made comments to WH's best friend about hiring a hit man to take WH out!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Just what I need - my dad in jail on top of everything else -haha!! Is she on medication for her depression? I can't remember if you said that. The only problem is that it's doubtful she will go see the doctor if you suggest it. I suspect some meds would help my WH as well, as he exhibits many symptoms of clinical depression, but that will never happen. He'd rather blame me and our marriage than to look at himself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
he will be here soon to pick up our girls. It's been over 2 weeks since I've seen him...I find myself wishing sometimes that I'd never have to see him again. All it does is remind me of all the hurt and rejection.

I am so sorry. Yes, she will see a psych for depression & I believe meds will be prescribed. Right now she just wants to be left alone. I try to accomodate. I saw her last week & talked to her on the phone last night. We email each other everyday.
The counselor suggests that we make appt for talking.

If your H won't try counseling, then what is keeping him from filing himself. There must be some self doubts there on his part. You can't sit around waiting for him to come to his senses. I guess my W thinks I won't file, but I will if I have to.

That's good that she will get help. WH is going to counseling by himself, which honestly is probably best because all of this is because of whatever issues he has. We have been to marriage counseling about6 times maybe, with 2 different counselors (because we moved). We have also been to Retrouvaille which proved to be a temporary fix. The marriage counseling never got to the root of things because the real problem doesen't lie with our marriage, the real problem lies within him.
He doesen't file himself because he feels too guilty. He knows God hates divorce and he knows he will be so wrong to do it, especially with no good reason. Also, he knows that he won't be in the kids' lives on a daily basis and that eventually he will lose his role as primary father figure to another man. Also, he is embarrassed to be around any of our old friends or to go to church. He can't face everyone.
Real worth it, huh? It boggles my mind. I used to cry and cry because I thought if he was willing to go through all that hell just so he wouldn't have to be with me, something must be really wrong with me, I must somehow be unworthy of love. Now I know he is just out of his mind, there is nothing wrong with me (though I admit, the feeling stil creeps up on me from time to time).
He just came to get the girls, stayed for about an hour and a half and left. We sat there barely talking, barely looking at each other for about 30 min while the girls cleaned up their rooms. It is just so weird. Somehow, seeing him still stirs up some emotions in me, though I refuse to give it enough thought to even know what those emotions are. I know I feel unsettled now. A lot of me just kept wishing it would all be over, wishing for closure somehow.
I'm sure you know that feeling. I think that's a common thing among all of us - one of the hardest things is to be in limbo, your life on hold.
He asked what I was doing tonight and I so wish I had had plans! I really wish I had some single friends right now - that's a frustration too, my whole life has revolved around family related things for so long, all my friends have their own families (in tact families!). No one to call up on the spur of the moment for a movie. I guess that will come in time.
I really can't imagine how some people wait for years for their spouse to make up there minds. They are much stronger than I!!

No children here, which would make the situation harder. She said if we had children, then we would have to work it out regardless. I don't believe that though. I have no idea what we have to work out in the first place. I believe she misses being with her friends (classmates) on a nightly basis. That feeling has made her depressed to the point she focuses on our relationship as the problem. As I stated before, for the past 3 months (me living in another town b/c of my job) I would email her & call her everyday. Things were all ways positive. Then on the weekends we would visit each other. Go out to eat, movies, etc. Then all of a sudden, one weekend, the bomb was dropped. I guess she was feeling guilt. I feel for your situation. He needs to talk to you about these issues & work at them. Children don't need to go thru all that. Its selfish not to think about the childrens well-being, both physically & especially mentally.

I think it's possible to have an affair-like relationship (emotionally) with a group of people, or with people you are not interested in romantically, such as people of the same sex. Your wife became so caught up in these friends to the point that they were meeting her ENs, they were what she looked forward to everyday. etc. My WH's EA involved the OW's husband as well and her 3 year old daughter. It was an obsession with the whole family. In his mind, they were his fantasy family, what we could never be. He would often compare me to OW as a mother, and even when he was deeply infatuated with the OW, he was still very attatched to her husband. He sent the little girl gifts when there was supposed to be NC.
So, to me, these friends are probably just as dangerous to your marriage as anyone she may be having an A with.
If she would allow you to meet her ENs, I would suggest trying new and exciting things together. Travel, go to a club have a few drinks and dance with her, go bungee jumping... Shake up the status quo a little. But I know you can't do that now because she won't let you.
You said that her class is over - does that mean she is not seeing her friends, or just not as much? Hopefully, these "friendships" will self-destruct over time, and then she will be left with a void and realize who fits that void.