Bump up for Jeffrey. Are you around?

Yeah, I'm back. I here you. People have told me about scuzy police are. Her whole notion that the notes she wrote & the talk they had in class, was al about joking...'thats the way law enforcement jokes around'. A load of BS. I finally let my mother see the notes after 6 months. She just stared at me. She said she was sick to her stomach. My cousin said this is the stuff high school people do. My W is 27. What finally hit me & made me make a descision is what I found out yesterday (sunday). My W works for juvenile justice & is sometimes on call. Well since we are 'separated' I'm not around her. But this past saturday she was on-call for paper processing for any juveniles that might get arrested on that day. We were supposed to talk about our situation that saturday night. But we didn't. Sunday afternoon I called her moms house (were she is now staying part time) to see if she wanted to talk. Her mom told me she had gone to eat lunch but would be back several hours later. I knew then what was up. I went on the internet & found where this guy friend lives at (same guy from valentines night -see posts). I drove 32 miles & found the place. Her car was parked at his parents house. This was the 3rd time she has been there in 1 month to eat at his parent house. I was mad. Later that night she called me back. I asked her what she had done for the weekend. Did she go out friday night. She said 'maybe, maybe not'. I said ok, just wondering (you are still my wife...why be defensive). I then asked what did she do for lunch earlier. She said that she went to lunh in a town that was about 80 miles from where I found her car. She clearly lied to me. I didn't tell her I found her car there. At least now I know where he lives. She said that she didn't feel comfortable telling me. That the counseler told her to set boundaries with me. And the bounderies for her were what she does on her free time. I siad that I wass sorry for inquiring. From there we just talked about stupid stuff, nothing about the issues in our situation. I got her to mention some issues that bothered her. Still on her mind was the whole movie gallery situation (see posts) & the fact that when we are in the mall I sometime s walk in front of her(I don't know where this comes from, she never mentioned it). I asked her about forgive & forget. She said she can forgive, but not easliy forget. I guess I can't forget the notes she wrote either, if we are taking score.
I hate her now. I can't trust her. This law enforcement class & the people in it were a factor in our marriage's demise. But the overall fault lies with HER, she MADE the choice to do this. She feels that she wants to be on her own. And her unhappiness comes from how she views our situation. My family thinks she won't file papers against me (b/c it costs money, she doesn't have much now with all her bills). They feel she has me as a back-up plan, so if other plans break apart, she still has me.

Hey there,
Sorry to hear things didn't go so well this weekend.

You don't really hate her - you love her and that's why you feel like you hate her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I always say the opposite of love isn't hate, the opposite of love is apathy. But I think your feelings are very normal and healthy. For a long time I couldn't feel any negative feelings toward my WH because I was in survival-mode. I had to push them down so I could shower him with affection and love, thinking that would turn things around.
It wasn't till I gained some self-respect and objectivity that I realized how unhealthy all that was. I am glad that I am able to feel these negative feelings now. I'm back in reality!

It's probably good you didn't mention you saw her car, right now I think you are giving her just enough rope to hang herself with. Pretty soon you'll have more than enough to confront her with about an A.

Just remmeber that the feelings of hate you have are not really towards her, but towards her actions and who she is in the fog.

I see your point. I guess I want to feel apathy towards her. I getting there. Her actions really lead me towards that. I feel as though she has apathy towards me. Her whole tone in her telephone conversations & emails are one of being like a friend instead of a spouse. She is trying to distance herself from me. And she is doing that by insisting she not see me physically. Something that seems odd in her thinking, is that if she wants to be alone, then why drive 30 odd miles to hang out with a friend. I am letting her go. I am tired of getting this dumped all over me. She doesn't deserve someone like me. She acknowledges that ai care for & love her. She doesn't tell me back though. I think she is afraid or is trying to suppress those feelings.
I want the fog to go away & her to go with it. I've already got the papers ready to sign.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I truly do understand how you are feeling. That's pretty much how I feel right now too. I know if it weren't for my girls, I may not be hanging in there.
But...did you read the post Update On My Marriage by Luke Parrish? That's the guy I was telling you about. Just don't do anything you'll regret because of the strong emotions you are feeling right now...
She drove 30 miles to be with a "friend" because he is not just a friend. She wants to be "alone", meaning not with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It's fog thinking.
Hang in there...tell me, you have papers ready to sign, do you have a plan in mind yet, or just holding on to them?

Got the papers ready to get notarized. I think she believes I won't file. Wait till I tell our counselor during my session later today. I asked her last night, what does she think she is getting out of the counseling. She told me "general life stuff I guess". How sad. I said 'do you think the counseling is for us'. I got no real response from her. I just can't believe a guy & his family would invite a married woman over to their house to eat for a third time. What are they thinking. If the guy had a GF (which he did up until dec but ended then) would she be over there. NO. He sure didn't invite her over there during the class course of 10 months. Why now? I wonder what her response would be. Why just you & not the rest of your classmates with you.

Well my plan is to serve her papers on a monday at her workplace just before lunch. I will make copies of the notes she wrote during class & certain emails she wrote me. Since she is writing in a notebook about all the 'faults' with me (11 pages), I want copies of it as well. Then I will distribute them to her co-workers (who knows what she has told them - I'm a controlling emotionally abusive person), I will give her friends copies, former classmates, family members & anybody else I can think of. She will not be expecting that. How will she explain the notes. She's going to have to lie alot to get out of them. "I've got a pair of pink fuzzy thongs with your name written all over them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> " " I'm not a naughty girl, Spank me, but don't spank me too hard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> " A guy responds "lets go into another room".

She can be the police whore all she wants. I will tell her that in front of her co-workers just before their lunch break. She will be paralyzed. I doubt she will be able to work the rest of the week. I hope she can't. The sunday before, I will go by the guy friends house to see him & his family. I'll ask, why are you inviting a married woman to your house for dinner. Doesn't it seem strange to you. How would you know to invite her on valentines night to a party. Doesn't that seem strange to you. Are you that immoral? Are you the one that talked to my wife in a vulgar tone? Are you the one that answered her back? Do you talk to all females this way?
My goal is to make it as uncomfortable for her & them. She will definitely feel odd going over there again. That monday I'll tell her I went over to his house & that his family knows everything.

Oh boy. Be careful, don't let things get too out of hand. Violence would be bad...
I'm so sorry things are going this way. Maybe getting the papers will be a wake-up call. However, I think that all the things you are planning on doing to humiliate her (though just and deserved) may wreck any possible chance of her "waking up" and wanting to come back to you. If you are going to do all that, you'd better be 110% sure that you want it to be over. For good.
Maybe your counselor will have some good advice for you tonight...I don't really know what else to say except I'm sorry, and here to talk.
Just please be careful and don't do anything rash.

No violence. Just to humiliate her. She would hate that. But can she refute, its all true. If its all good, then why be ashamed. The thing is, it is shameful what she has been doing. She knows that. I don't want her back. Why would I? She just will do this later again anyway. She got away with writing the notes & she thinks she can getr away with more stuff. I will tell her friend at his parents house, if she is leaving me to be with her friends like you, then what can you expect from her in the future. She obviously thinks she is in the right by doing the things she does. She sees no wrong. But humiliating her would damage her so bad. She would worry about it, thinking who knows all this stuff about me. Everyone she knows will know. Her world will be turned upside down. It would be a different story, if things were truly wrong between us. But things are not, its just petty stuff on her part. Stuff from years past "that are like pennies collecting". "They are small in themselves, but collect to be big when combined". Well she never told me anything about them. She will never be able to have a successful relationship that way. She thinks she is right for thinking that way - fault finding. Keeping score is not a good way to go about a marriage. She has 11 pages about me, I could very well have 20 pages if I so wanted. But I haven't. Petty person. All I see in her is hate. HAte for her the people she comes in contact at her job (juveniles) & her job itself. The job is stressful & she wants to be a cop???

You are very emotional right now, and you are basing your decisions on that. Try to take a step back. You came to this website because you wanted to save your marriage. Maybe deep down you still do, you just don't want to keep puting yourself out there to get hurt again and again.
If you are sure you are going to serve her with papers, why don't you just do that and giver her a little time for it to hit her before you come in with all the photocopied stuff. You can still do that later, but that way at least there would be a chance...I mean, what if? What if she gets the papers and sees the reality of it and it brings her back to her senses? You will never know for sure if that would happen if you humiliate her right off the bat. Because, pretty much, it's guarunteed at that point that it is over.
Just a few days ago you were saying you loved her and wanted her back. I don't think that can change that quickly, it's just that you are so angry and hurt right now, that's all you can see/feel.
Don't take this the wrong way - I completely understand because I feel similarly towards my WH. I just see you in a position of making a permanent decision, and I don't want you to do that based on the hurt and anger you are feeling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks. This past weekend really opened my eyes. You know, I did want her back, but I can't stay in this limbo situation for 3-4 months like some people. I guess my PLAN is to talk to the counselor tonight & see where this from a macro perspective. I don't understand the boundaries thing that she said the counselor mentioned she should make. I mean, if she is going to another guys place to eat with his family, thats one thing, but if she goes out to buy groceries & visits her girlfriend, thats a whole different thing. I think she has gone beyond the boundaries of the relationship, b/c in her mind she is right & will justify it.
My plan also involves her writing down what she thinks. Right now she is writing about just what comes to her. More than likely it is fault finding with me. Now I have told her to write about positive things she wants out of me or our relationship. SImple steps, I think. It forces her to think about the good things rather than the bad. Usually when one thinks about the bad, its easy to find. Its easy to be pessimisstic. So turn it around & just find the good. Maybe that will work. If she doesn't think the couseling is for us to repair things between us & is only for her depression, then we have a problem. She needs to own up to the fact that the faults she finds are hers too. Right now though, it sounds as though she acknowledges that though. She is ready to give up. But if so, why doesn't she file herself?

Why doesen't she file for herself? There are a few options. 1. It costs money 2. If you file, it relieves her of some of the guilt 3. She's not sure that's what she wants 4. She's a cake-eater
It could be any combination of these.

As far as the boundaries excuse, it is just that - an excuse. She's using something the counselor told her as a means to avoid accountability, basically she is being deceitful and manipulative. Fog, fog, fog...

Remember, you are the only one with ANY motivation to reconcile right now (however little that may be!). Don't do anything to give her more motivation NOT to, unless you know that you know that you know...

And of course, it's good that you are going to counseling tonight. Maybe he will have some helpful input...

Oh, and earlier I wasn't inferring that you would be violent with her, but rather than things could get violent in confronting the OM...

Oh no violence at all. I don't think of the guy as the OM. One would think, why would his family condone a married women being with him in that way. He just got out of a relationship (was about to get married) 2 months ago. I think the relationship is platonic. One thing that bothers me though, of all the friends she has, I've never met him. I only saw him at their class graduation. That was the end of him I thought. My W all last year would drop peoples names, sometimes his, in her conversations with me. Later she started picking up quotes of theirs, even changing her voice to sound like them when she says their qoute. "Hole mackeral, somebody help that man" I don't know how many times I heard her say that. I thought it was odd to mimic her friends sayings. Its like a kid or a movie buff that can recite lines. She used to do that too. I guess she never stopped. I think she feels her friends are now her safety net. If she moves with me to another city for work, shes got to start over in a sense. If she stays there, she has all her friends within 60 miles of her. Of course she got a cell phone w/ the walkie-talkie feature. She got that in, guess, mid December. Right after class ended for her. She is picking her friends over me. They are her safety net. If she didn't have them, I think we would be alot better right now. I would look pretty good as an emotional need giver. I think she let these friends fulfill needs that she wouldn't let me fulfill. Whats your opinion?

What do you mean by a cake-eater?
Do you think getting her to write about positive actions & goals that would make her happy, be a beneficial thing?
What do you suggest that I get her to do, to get on the path of thinking about the issues? Beside counseling. Counseling doesn't seem to work. I think there has to be a concrete plan, rather than just talking about what happened last week in her life.

The problem is that it's really hard to work a plan that only one of you wants to work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I know all too well about that.
Yes, I think getting her to write about the positive things is a good thing and could help her get in the right mindset. However, that all depends on how much she will actually put into it.
A cake-eater (having your cake and eating it too) is Harley's term for a WS who allows their spouse to meet certain ENs (the ones that are convenient for them, like finances) and then goes elsewhere to have the other ENs met. This is a situation that can drag on a long time and is detrimental to reconciliation. Cake-eaters usually like the safety-net the BS provides and has them as a back-up plan.
And see, ha-ha, you do too still want her back or else you wouldn't be asking me what you should do to get her thinking about the issues! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
As far as that goes, the MB-correct advice would be Plan A her, show her how you can meet her ENs, etc. That's one option. The other option is a more tough-love approach. If you are really, truly ready to accept the possibility of the marriage being over, tell her you're not going to go on like this, that she needs to decide what she wants. (I know, that's an ultimatum and an LB).
There is also Plan B.
The problem is that any of the MB principles require PATIENCE and long-suffering, things that I think you are running short on right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
But truly, you don't know if they will work if you don't give them time.
(BTW, I'm short on patience right now too.)
Yes, the fact that she chose not to move with you shows that she is choosing her friends over you, but really, I'm not sure why you are convinced that her relationship with this guy is platonic.

MAybe it isn't. My family doesn't think it is platonic. I think it would be difficult. Right now she lives with her parents. But, last week she has been staying in her sisters vacant trailer. I have no clue where it is. The distance he would have to travel would be about 60-70 miles one way. I think he works shift work. He is a deputy sheriff in a neighboring county. But the possibilities are there. Who knows what went on while we lived apart during the week. I only saw her on weekends from Oct-Jan. She chose not to move, during the middle of december. Really makes sense. She also, in her words, felt a sense of wanting to be on her own then as well. Right after class ended she made these decisions, not very surprising. She has picked her friends over me. They fulfilled the 'hang out' EN. The whole cop mentality also plays a role, as mentioned by a poster above. Police have their own culture & stick together no matter what. She started to say stuff like that too. She said," I would take a bullet for my friends". I asked her about me..."You too" she replied.

If the relationship with this guy is not platonic. I wish something would just totally convince me of it. She tends to have guy friends, but sometimes in the past it seems to cross the line. One time (1.5 years ago) she & a co-worker, someone she didn't work with on a daily basis, go to a concert & football game together. Her notion was that,"I didn't think you liked going to those things". It made me feel insecure. Why do it if it bothers your partner? Isn't your partners happiness high on your list? If you do something your partner doesn't like, then don't do it...simple.

The A-Plan may work, or it may not. I'm scared of being hurt again.

Sorry, but the whole distance/work thing means NOTHING!!! Just trust me on this one.

You have a right to be scared of being hurt again. Something I've realized is that often the fear/anticipation of the hurt is worse than the hurt itself. Like, I was SO scared of WH one day deciding that he was done and moving out. That was terrifying to me. Then it happened, and it hurt - really bad. But I got through it and now I am doing better on a daily basis then when he was here. Doing what you truly believe is the right thing to do in your situation is worth whatever hurt it brings - but I can't tell you to be a doormat either. It's hard because I was in a situation that was really causing me to lose my grip - crying hysterically every day, wanting to die, etc. And it was due to living with constant rejection and betrayal. I know I can't go back to that for my own health and the well-being of my kids. So, if WH ever wants to come back there will be a lot of conditions. That alone may be enough to pound the last nail into the coffin.
I don't know what your situation is like as far as your mental/emotional/physical health, and can you/can't you take anymore or will you/won't you.
Also, yes, you are right to be concerned about her going out with a guy by herself (to the football game). There are very few circumstances where that is appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, it SHOULD matter how you feel about it.
You mentioned the pennies adding up thing. Were the other little things she mentioned along similar lines with each other, like a pattern that you could draw some conclusion from? Or were they all completely different? Do you have any other examples besides the movie and new years?

Jeffrey1970 -- you sound rather wound up. Maybe it is not a good idea to call her "the police whore" in front of her coworkers?

I'm sorry you are hurting. I am sorry she hasn't committed herself to working with you.

Be careful how violent and aggressive you push this. You are angry now, but if you want any chance of saving your relationship, violence will kill any chance you have. Be very careful.

Here's a thought - what about having the papers served to her during her class or at the othe man's parents house? If that wouldn't be a wake up call to the OM, I am not sure what would.

My thinking is this: Other man gets to see that she is now going to be MORE emotionally/physically available to him that you are telling her to split. Maybe that will scare him off because he may think she may now want more out of a relationship with him? Think how pissed his parents may be by involving their home in the service of divorce papers and their son being involved enough that she gets served there???

May be I am too close to this situation to give you good, practial advice.

I am sure someone can give you the thumbs up or thumbs down on my suggestion.

The class ended in december.
I don't think this guys parents really care about our situation. Who knows what she has told them (that I'm controlling BS). His relationship track record, according to what I know, involves divorced women with children. I know he was married at 21 to a woman that had teenage children. He got divorced soon after that. During the course of the class last year, I know that he was engaged to a divorced woman that had small children. He ended it in mid December. So, I don't think his parents really care. They are all immoral.
Why invite a married woman to your house to eat?
Why invite a married woman on valentines night to a birthday party some 50 miles away?
These are the questions I will ask them.
Would you invite a married woman if your son had a GF? Would the guy invite her if he had a GF? If so, then why did he not invite her when he did have a GF last year during the course of the class?

The problem is, like you said, they obviously don't care. The probably don't even see anything wrong with it, and you confronting them will only serve to give more ammunition to the "controlling BS". It won't open their eyes (unfortunately). People like that are not going to see your point of view, and certainly are not going to aee or admit they have done anything wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I really think you need to take all this energy and channel it into a direction that will be more positive for you. These people are not worth the breath you will be wasting talking to them. I recently came across a group called DivorceCare and they have groups meeting all over. You can go to the website and type in your zipcode. It's for people who are separated or divorced. Do you work out? If not, it would help release some of the anger and stress, and would be a positive change for you. Also, pick up an old hobby or start a new one. (This has been hard for me, since mine is scrapbooking - that would produce some pretty funny captions!!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks, you have been a God send. I really appreciate your comments. Maybe you are right. These people are like "Jerry Springer" guests, where probably nothing phases them.

Someone else on another forum (sorry I need all the support I can get) mentioned this:

((I spent two years working for a City's retirement board. Because of the pensions that we handled...we had to deal with divorce lawyers and ex spouses all the time.

Everytime an employee was divorced or married or re married, we had to be legally notified. Let me tell you...I have NEVER EVER seen anything like the files on the police officers in that city.

It's absolutley horrible. When I talked to other pension people in other cities and towns...they laughed. I guess maybe it has something to do with they stress of the job and also the large amount of down town and alone time...I don't know...but these people move thru relationships like the rest of us change our clothes.))

Another comment:
((I would be very suspicious regarding the lunch that she had with this OM at his parent's home. I find it difficult to believe that his parents would be there to meet their son's gf who just happens to be married. If it was an innocent lunch there would be no need to lie. What would be the point.

IMO,you have 2 choices, to go along with her BS and be miserable, or make a clear statement by filing for D that her behaviour is unacceptable. Either it will burst her fantasy balloon and make her realize the horrible damage she has done to herself and her marriage, or she will continue to screw around, in which case, you will be free of a wife who has allowed herself to become corrupted and deceitful and who cannot be relied on as a life-long partner. ))

Two weeks from now there is a concert coming to town. Alabamas Farewell Tour. We talked going to it before the bomb was dropped (1 week before). I mentioned to her the other night I had a surprise for her. She wanted to know, acting excited. I told her it was none of her business, trying to give her some of the same medicine she has been giving me. Well, she figured it out. I didn't confirm it. She seemed down about afterward. I think then she realized that it would mean going with me. That made me sad. MAybe I shouldn't have mentioned it. But who knows, that surprise in 2 weeks may mean that she gets papers instead. A little joke on my part.