newly-

You make a good point, currently my XH argues that on my weekends he has to go five days without seeing the kids and he misses them terribly, yet he has never asked to see them during the five days because of it and sometimes goes as many as 3 or 4 days without even calling them. I guess in my opinion if I was him and really wanted to show that I wanted to be with my kids, I would be putting my words into action, yet he never does this. He is such a talker. I will make a point of this fact as well as the fact that I am offering him other options to see the kids more often, but that they need to stay living primarily with me. This will blow up in his face as it really is the money not the time he is looking for.

A good friend who has seen me through all of this reminded me today that time has been on my side since he left me. She truly believes if I can keep my chin up and be patient that it is only a matter of time until he screws up again.

KitG-

You mentioned earlier 10 factors that your state looks at when determining custody. What are they?

Take care and God bless!

K

Still,

Sorry, I don't get on MB as much as I would like to.

I made the comment about when kids are older because you know what I really believe? I believe the parent who isn't the better parent is going to find out when the child gets older, that the child knows it and can voice it.

But, I'm with you. When you are drawing up the initial papers you have to plan in advance so, yes, I would plan the same visitation plan until they were 18 and just go back and modify when they are older if need be.

My niece is being raised by my parents. Her birth parents get on a kick every once in a while about how they are going to get custody of her. Well my niece is 12 now. Her parents (who are not together) sporadically visit and call and yet, they'll still say crap like that to her. I know for a fact that if a Judge were to ask her if she would like to have more visitation w/either parent, she will say, "If they want to come visit me, they can. If you are asking for my Mom and Dad (who are really her Grandma and Grandpa) to be told to take me to see my parents on certain days, no." She does not like how unreliable they are. She once commented to my mom (when she was 6) that "I know Auntie is going to get me a dog because my Auntie never lies to me." That's just sad. She already knew by 6 that her parents did not mean what they said.

I know in the heat of the moment we would all like to say what we really feel to the kids but you just can't. They're smart. They know what's up. My mom and dad have been very careful with what they have said to my niece. So now that my niece is 12, she doesn't hate her parents but I guess you would say she has a lack of respect for her parents. When she was little and would be sitting there all day in anticipation of a visit and then no one show, she would ask my mom what was up. My mom would not lie but would not bad mouth. For instance, with my sister (she is bi-polar), my mom would say that she was sick and sometimes has a hard time doing things that people who are not sick can do.

But I can't put myself in anyone else's shoes. I couldn't imagine dealing w/an ex-spouse who is manipulative, abusive or an alcoholic, etc. I can only pray that when my time comes, we can both act appropriately.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will make a point of this fact </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't bother, it won't matter. If you have in writing that you offered him more time, then bring that, don't bring up his mistakes, the judge will see them.

Use the afterschool visits or even dinner time to offer X more time. You'll know how much he's interested if he takes you up on this. My X had written to the judge that since he's self employed his schedule is very flexible to see the kids. She really called him on it, and he's never taken advantage of it. And his mom who lives 35 miles away, does half of his pickups and drop offs of the children - because he doesn't have enough time!
I don't call my children when they are with their dad, and he seldom calls when I have them. Since he has at most two nights in a row, I don't want to disrupt his time with them by calling. And he's told me I am only "allowed" to call between 7 & 7:30 pm - no kidding. So I give him his time. Other parent's call every night.

SoDisappointed-

Your points are well taken. I do believe that time is on the better parent's side and that children are very insightful and perceptive. However, I also know that children are also very hopeful and even though reality may prove one parent less reliable, etc. I still believe that children will always hold out the hope that the parent will come around and be the parent they are meant to be. Therefore, I have seen many children and adults for that matter hurt in what can be a very vicious cycle of high hopes and big let downs. Of course there too the better parent has to remain strong, but it is not an easy task. They have to watch their children get filled with hope and then watch them be hurt. They have to keep their mouths shut and often become the target of wounded feelings that their child is not comfortable showing to the parent causing the pain.

I have experience. I have watched my XH faulter on numerous promises to my kids. It is heart wrenching. My oldest child at eleven seems to accept that this is how her father opperates, but that doesn't mean that she still doesn't bite when he offers something new in the hopes that this time will be different. Yes, she has come up with coping mechanisms and I believe is wise beyond her years, but she still is hurt easily.

My second child at nine is much more optimistic and receptive of his father. He buys into everything my XH does and makes excuses for him when he falls through. Then againg, he is our only son and my XH does favor him. He takes him on special outings and buys him special things. My XH grew up without a father and had a lot of neglect/abuse at the hands of his mother and her multiple boyfriends, lovers, husbands. My XH made no secret that he wanted a son so he could treat him the way he had always longed to be treated. While I have no problem with the theory of being a better parent, I do have a problem of trying to make up for your own past through your children especially when there are multiple children and you single out one the way my XH has. It is very hard on my eleven year old. My two other daughters are my oblivious to the situation. My XH left when the oldest of the two was only two and a half and I was three months pregnant with the youngest. These two really know nothing other than the way things are and therefore are much more comfortable with things the way they are. They do however have a definate preference for being with me, but I don't see how anyone could blame them.

As for saying things in anger, you are right, it shouldn't be done, but that doesn't always stop it. I commend your parents for raising your niece. It also sounds that they are parenting her very well. In STP's defense however, I think their is a difference between the situations. Your parents are raising their grandchild because their child has an illness that prohibits it. Your sister, while not doing things in the best interest of her child, has an illness. She is also still their child and therefore with it comes the unconditional love of a parent. ALthough they have probably endured a lot of pain and disappointment with her, it is still different than the pain of a betrayed spouse. I am not condoning slipping up, I am just saying that it does happen. In my own experience I admit that I have slipped up a few times, not many, but a few when I have been at my brink. I am not proud of this, but it has happened. What I have always done is talked to the kids and explained that I said something I shouldn't have and apologized, but let's face it, what has been said has been said. I guess I am just trying to say that people are human.

newly- Good point about the judge seeing his mistakes. I don't want to come across as arrogant or condescending. I want to present the facts. I will present any arrangements we have in writing, but let the rest show itself.

We had an example of this today. The kids had the day off from school and my XH is working nights this week so a few weeks ago I had let him know of their day off and asked if he'd like to have them. He said he would. Then early this morning we were blasted with a snow storm. After I got to work we were told we should go home due to the weather, nice huh? I mean they didn't realize this when we had seven inches of snow already and it was a virtual white out? Anyway, I called my XH and told him what had happened, but that since I was at work I was going to stay for a few hours, but was wondering if I could pick them up a few hours early on my way through town. He said that they weren't really doing anything and that wouldn't be a problem. I told him I just wanted to be sure as he had planned to have the day with them and he said it was fine.

When I picked them up he was very friendly and handed me a letter. I read it when we got home. In it he proceeded to question what was wrong with me and why wouldn't I let him have any time with the kids. He said I should have left the kids with him and taken the time for myself. He questioned my security as a parent and told me I was always interefering with his time, etc. He accused me of playing the victim. He told me that I had cut his day short knowing he hadn't seen them due to his work schedule this week and now he wouldn't be able to see them until Tuesday as it is my weekend. He told me he wanted me to explain my feelings in writing so he can better understand where I am coming from. First of all, we were in a snow storm. We live in Northern Wisconsin and it was heavy snow. It wasn't weather to be out in and since I have to do the driving I thought it would be best to limit the driving I was doing. Secondly, I asked him if it was okay. If he had a problem with it he should have said something. I didn't set out to intentionally rob him of his time, I simply was going to be at home and had no problem picking them up. Had he said no I would have left things as planned. As for not seeing them now, he works this weekend, but only at night. He knows we are staying in town and the kids have told him our plans, which are limited and only at night. He could easily ask for them to come over, but hasn't. Not only that, he always claims this when we hit this rotation in his schedule, but he has never, not even once, asked if they could come over during the day on these weekends. As for the victim part, I have never relied on that role, not even when he first left me. Ironically his whole letter screamed out poor me, pity me! Needless to say, I will not be writing him back.

This whole thing is so frustrating. I could just strangle him. Of course instead I have chosen to let it slide, but it is frustrating none the less.

Well, I really should get some sleep.

Take care and God bless!
K

KitG-

Hi there. I was just rereading this whole post while putting together some things for mediation and realized that you have removed all your replies. Is there a reason for this? I found you input very valuable.

Take care and God bless!
K

Well, it is Monday morning and as predicted my XH did nothing to try to see the kids this weekend. He did call last night to see how their weekend went. The first time he called only the youngest two were available and so he said he'd call back when the kids were home. He didn't even want to talk to the two that were there. He did call back later when the older kids had returned, but made no mention of wanting to see them before his scheduled time on Tuesday. I know I am venting here, but this is the man who is taking me to court because he wants more time, who just this past Friday said again that I am purposely trying to rob him of his time, and he sits through the whole weekend knowing they are available and does nothing. Then when he does check in with them he doesn't even give the youngest two a simple "Hi," preferring to wait until they are all there. Maybe I'm just tense with the mediation coming up, maybe Im looking for fault, but for a man who is totally devoted and missing his kids soooooo much he sure doesn't act like it.

Thanks for letting me vent!

Take care and God bless!
K

Actions speak louder than words.

The problem for many of us in our marriages was that we so wanted to believe the words that we convinced ourselves they were true - despite contrary evidence.

If he wanted to see the kids he would.

Document, document, document.

And aren;t you going to call someone on MB for a pep session before the Mediation?

newly-

I am becoming the documentation queen. I have a record of all requests to have the kids extra in the last three years, as well as how many I was able to give, etc. Actions do speak louder than words, he just doesn't get it. He is a wonderful manipulator and I did believe so much from him when we were married as I desperately wanted to believe it. I now see the OW doing the same thing. As my attorney is constantly reminding me, of course the OW believes him and supports his every move, this is her future too. If he falls apart on the kids, etc. Her fairy tale will also fall apart.

What do you mean about calling someone on MB for a pep session?

Thanks for the replies, they are really keeping me going!

Take care and God bless!
K

SR,

I agree w/you. That's why I'm here to see what is going on and everyone's comments because, like I said, I'm afraid that is the direction of my M.

I so see my WH doing as your's is. My WH works evening hours right now. He's off on Fridays and I can see him saying he wants the kids on Fridays but can also see him sleeping in instead.

I so do not want to make excuses for him and won't. I will just tell them that he worked late and needs sleep or something. They already do not expect him to wake up. They are already used to him not being around during the week. My son doesn't even want to talk to him at night any more. I ask him to at least tell daddy goodnight and that's all he say and hand the phone back. It's sad.

SoDisappointed-

I really feel for you. It is very hard to see your children hurting and an absentee parent hurts the kids. I have watched it for a long time with my XH. He was never an involved dad when he lived here, there was always something that took priority. When he first left he was totally irresponsible and carefree and couldn't be bothered with the responsibility of children. Even when we divorced he wanted nothing more than the bare minimum. It wasn't until the OW moved in and they got greedy that they wanted more, yet they want more in words, not in action.

I wish you all the best as you go through this. Stay true to yourself and your kids. Set boundaries to protect yourself and keep the faith.

Take care and God bless!
K

As I was preparing for mediation on Friday a thought came to mind. It is my XH's weekend with the kids. He will pick them up from the sitter's after mediation. This has me worried. My kids are unaware that this is even going on. As hard as it is, this is between their father and I and I don't want to concern them with it. So far he hasn't said anything either. What I am worries is him bringing it up over the weekend. He prides himself on being very discreet and only operating in the kids best interest and to the best of my knowledge he generally is, but in the past when he feels corned he has done some very inappropriate things and told flat out lies to them. Depending on how things go he could do this again. Granted they always come back to me on Sunday and if they have questions we talk them through, but he has put me in tough spots before and I can definately see him doing it with this. Any suggestions on how to cope with this?

Take care and God bless!
K

Bring it up in mediation.
Most books recommend that the children be told by both parents at the same time. So they hear consistent stories.
So, during mediation discuss how you will tell the children, and arrange to do it on Friday before his weekend, or on Sunday after the weekend.

newly-

Good point about bringing it up in mediation. I will do that. He generally doesn't tell them anything that he thinks will upset them unless he thinks it will make him look good, ie, telling them he was leaving, telling them we were divorcing, etc. He left all of it for me to do by myself. I couldn't believe it, at the time he told me he trusted my judgement and that I was better at dealing with them on those sorts of things. He really is a piece of work!

Of course last year when he was going to jail for the second time in three months after swearing to them the first time that it would never happen again he fabricated a whole story about me moving and taking them far away to a big city where they would know nobody and would never get to see their friends again and only see him when I wanted. They totally freaked, but when they asked me about it he looked like a total liar as none of it was true. If he leaves and tells them on his own it will just prove my point and I will do my best to do damage control.

Back to my question about calling someone from MB, could you clarify this?

Thanks again for the replies.

Take care and God bless!
K

I can see points on both side for and against additional time. Unfortunatley, the against seems to dominate here and in the court system. I am trying everyday to try to see my kids and being prevented from doing so. Men when married often times inherently believe that moms are the primary caretaker. Many moms rather than present opportunities to bond with their children make them see like it is a chore or break time for the mom.

It is true that I and most other men not do the things of doctor visits, field trips, PTA and other things but what is the trade. Working harder oustide of the home to provide for his family. Additionally many moms just do those things not asking if the man if he would and then resent him even though they did not ask. I have done field trips, concerts and such. Not as much as she but she also had a lot more time with them only working part time as well as being there when most of the events took place. I feel I have done my part. Last year for example I played taxi for the soccer games and practice and did not complain once.
I came home most nights and let my children know I loved them and asked them about their day, reviewed homework and other things.
I am not saying this is always the case but many postings resemble nothing more than male bashing. It makes it hard for the guys who truly want more time. I enjoy my children and the time I do get to spend with them. Money is a factor but in my case it would be spent directly on them during the time they are with me.

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Pheonix_66 ]</small>

Pheonix-66-

Your points are well taken to a point, as I do feel for the men who really are good fathers and are being hindered. However, I also feel for the women who are being hindered in this age of equal rights for the fathers simply because they are the fathers.

If my XH's actions matched his mouth we wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place. I believe that parenthood is a 100% committment, not something you do when it is convenient for yourself. My XH has always parented at his convenience. From the time I became pregnant with our first child I tried to include him in all aspects of child raising, but he declined on most using the defense that it was my job as their mother. I am not blaming him for my enduring this while we were married, I made the choice to tolerate it, but over the past 11 years he has had many chances to prove himself as a father and has failed at most.

Just for the record. I did not do the mothering because it was more convenient and I had more time. I did it because I am their mother and would do anything for them, even at my own sacrifice. My XH does not understand this concept in the least. In the course of our 11 year marriage I gave birth to and pretty much single handedly raised four children. Remember that he walked out before the youngest was even born. I earned a bachelor's and master's degree and in addition to this I worked full time with the exception of one year when my schooling and practicum made it impossible to do with his shift work. I was also the sole person who brought them to their dentist and doctor's appointments, registered them for and attended all activities (he only attended the fun), brought them to church (although he promised he would attend it fell through as soon as we were married and it was either go alone or not go), and took care of purchasing all of their needs and wants for that matter. He simply didn't want to be bothered.

As I have stated before on this post, I am all for equal parenting when the parents are equal, but let the facts speak for themselves.

Good luck to you as you pursue a life with your children.

Take care and God bless!
K