WMWF and L&C.

L&C, you have to tell what you said to her lawyer. Sounds funny. I'll call you later this week. We should all meet up sometime, I agree without the kids.

I was hurt again by my wife, this time for the very last time. I was trying to make arrangements for her to see the children on the weekends. She does not want them on the weekends. So, we were at a stale mate. Somehow, in all of this, she manages to spew out, "I don't want to be with you and I don't love you". She gets off by saying this. I tell her how much she's hurting us and how this will effect the children forever. She says, "Well what do you want? Huh? You want me to come home?" I say, "yes, of course I do". She says, "Well fine, but I will make your life miserable because I will never love you". I say okay. We get off the phone. I'm hurt (all over again) and I haven't spoken to her since. She should be getting served sometime this week.

I am officially done with it. Oh! The OM was there while I was talking to her on the phone.
So it is done. I will not speak to her again. If I do, I will tell you all and just hit me with a 2x4 when we meet up. But that won't happen because I am NOT calling the woman ever again.

As I sadi above, if you tell them he does this or that and they do not see it, then you are the one they cannot trust."

This is not true.
Um, yes, this is very true.

Again, as I said above, if you tell them all this stuff, they spend time around him and NEVER see this stuff, then they are gonna be confused.
After all, dad doesn't lie. But they are around him all the time and they never see anything dad says happens so their brains are going in circles trying to reconcile this info.

Same as you slamming on mommy and saying she is a bad person, blah, blah, blah. They may not see it.

The way to handle this is tell them she made a bad choice and sometimes people do that and the right way to fix it is to own up to a mistake and do damage repair.
Again, explain that not every one will do this.

This is how you prepare them for the mistakes they will make in the future.

DTIA-

I'm in the same spot with my WW. We are in the middle of a custody battle and her attorney up and died on her... so the proceedings grind to a halt, her irresponsible behavior with the kids continues... nothing I can do until the courts force her to get an attorney.

I find that even though I don't have conversations with her outside of the kids, it hurts terribly badly whenever she is nice to me. We had a sudden snow storm here the other day (5 inches in about an hour) which caused like 150 accidents in the course of an hour. She called me at work wanting to make sure I was alright, she was all concerned that I might have gotten in an accident or hurt. I find this is harder for me to deal with than when she is fog ridden and cruel.

Ok, we are all agreed... when and where do ya'll wanna get together?

WMWB, wow! That is tough. If my wife were that kind to me...I really don't know what I would do. She is hateful, continually.

We should plan for around spring break or maybe early summer.

Chris, we will just have to agree to not agree. Whatever it is I tell them, if they are around him long enough, they will see what I say is true. It's that simple. But the thing is, they will not WANT to be around him. They don't want to be around him. Just like I said, if Mom told me not to go to Rombauer, I won't have the chance to find out if what she said is true about the place or not. The children can and will and have said that they do not want to be around him, based on what I have already told them. If they are forced, they will react, negatively. Fortunately, my wife loves them enough to not put them through that. She's sees the discomfort in their faces when his name is even mentioned. This is why I have them all of the time. Your explanation to how to handle it is fine, for an adult. If I told them this my kids, 4 & 8, would look at me like I just spoke to them in Greek, ancient Greek. "Mommy made a bad choice and sometimes people do that and the right way to fix it is to own up to a mistake and do damage repair." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Won't work for me. What works for me is, "Mommy moved out to be with a horrible, horrible man who can care less about you or me. He's an evil man. In fact, he hates your father (I have a restraining order on him remember?) Mommy is not in a good place right now and what she has done is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is wrong to have a boyfriend or girlfriend when you are married. When this happens the family is hurt, like we are huring now. The man was sent straight from the devil and unfortunately Mommy fell for him..."

That's what works for me.

Won't work for me.
It's not what works for you, it's what you need to do to raise as mentally/emotionally healthy and stable children as possible given the circumstances.

What works for me is, "Mommy moved out to be with a horrible, horrible man who can care less about you or me. He's an evil man. In fact, he hates your father (I have a restraining order on him remember?) Mommy is not in a good place right now and what she has done is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is wrong to have a boyfriend or girlfriend when you are married. When this happens the family is hurt, like we are huring now. The man was sent straight from the devil and unfortunately Mommy fell for him..."
Wow, you really talk with a child psychologist about how to discuss this with them.

Since the mother of your children fell for the "devil man", they may think it could just as easily happen to them. After all, the major influence on a child is their parents and if the devil is after the parents, what's gonna happen to them?
Daddy couldn't protect mommy, how can he protect us?

The children can and will and have said that they do not want to be around him, based on what I have already told them.
Well, DUH! They have no experience with him and can ONLY go by what you say, even if it was 100% wrong. Why would they want to be around a the devil?

Your explanation to how to handle it is fine, for an adult. If I told them this my kids, 4 & 8, would look at me like I just spoke to them in Greek, ancient Greek. "Mommy made a bad choice and sometimes people do that and the right way to fix it is to own up to a mistake and do damage repair."
Perhaps you should use some common sense when reading these posts.
Try explaining it on their level and not use the exact words I put.

I'm not suggesting in any way they SHOULD be around him. I do think you should keep them from being around him as long as you are still married.
If he is a horrible person, then you should continue to do so after a divorce.

For the sake of your children, you should learn to separate your hatred for your wife & the om from your love of your children.

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Nevermind. You can't hear it anyway.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

Uhhmmmm……Solon…...D2IA...…buddy…...let’s, uh…... Calm down just a smidge here if we can…. For just a second.

Now, I’m with ya 100% on the OM being a horrible and rotten person and probably the worst thing in the world for your kids to be around…BUT…I think you really need to watch what you’re telling (or at least how your telling them) your kids here. The stuff about the devil… probably not so appropriate. I think you are right in keeping them from him, and strongly objecting (and doing whatever you can to prevent it) to them ever being around this guy. But seriously, you are dealing with a 4 year old here… your gonna give the kids some serious nightmares to deal with on top of everything else.

I can totally empathize with your pain and anger at your wife and this other guy… really I do, but this isn’t your kids fight and I think you are kind of doing them a disservice by putting them on the front lines like this. Your kids are gonna figure this out all on their own when the time is right. Trust me, my mom had an affair and left my dad when I was a kid. Kids have a very good sense about which parent is being selfish and which parent did everything they could to save things… you really don’t need to lobby them to be on your side. And I think this could Really come back to bite you here… My 4 year old started asking me all sorts of questions about why mommy was acting strange, why she spent so much time at the green house (the OM’s house), why she doesn’t sleep here anymore… so on and so on. Now, these are some well thought out questions from a very young kid who sees his world crashing down around him but doesn’t quite know exactly what it is that is happening… so he turns to the only person he really feels he can count on, the only stable and trusted person in his life rightnow… his daddy. I assume yours are the same way. I simply told him that mommy is a little sick in her head and sick in her heart and that we are doing everything we can and are praying for her to come back home so we can fix our family. I felt it was not giving him too much information, not demeaning his mother too much, yet it was a well thought out answer to his inqury. Of course he related this to his mother at one point… she twisted it all around and put it in an affidavit. I set it straight to my attorney and asked if this was going to be a problem… her answer was probably. The courts feel that you should lie to the kids and hand them some bullsh*t answer because they won’t know any different. She (the attorney) told me that it would likely be viewed as irresponsible and mean spirited in nature to the court and the custody evaluator. She convinced me to add the caveat to my response affidavit saying that I was caught off guard and that I realize that it may have painted her in a bad light and I wouldn’t say anything like that to the kids again. It makes me furious, what the hell am I supposed to tell him? And in addition, being that Minnesota is a no-fault state… her affair and walking out doesn’t seem to count for anything.

All I’m trying to say here is that I know all to well were you are coming from… and I know you are in “papa bear” mode and doing anything you can think of to do what is best for your kids. I just think maybe it would be worth your while to reconsider what your saying to them. I know it is painful to think they may be around this guy, but let them form their own opinions about your WW and her OM. A very wise gentleman over on the JFO board told me not to long ago that kids have an amazing internal ethical barometer. They know exactly what is right and what is wrong… and who is right and who is wrong. Give them a little credit and let them figure it out on their own. Just make sure they know how much you love and care for them. I’m sure my kids get terribly sick and tired of me telling them I love ‘em… but I just don’t feel like I can say it enough. Also, I think it will come back to bite you if you are constantly making your wife out in a bad light to them… that’s what we are for, not the kids.

Ok… pep talk over. What it all boils down to is that they are kids, let ‘em be kids and try not to burden them with all of this. I think early summer would be great. Where are you thinking of meeting?

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]</small>

Okay, the two of you are missing the point, BIG time.

The mere fact that they (the children) may find themselves around this man confirms what I have said about him! He is around their mother! He is around their father's wife! This is wrong. I tell them the man she left home for is bad, is evil. They don't have to wait and see him do something first to confirm that and if they don't see something then, "oops! Daddy must be a liar." NO! They only have to SEE him and his mere presence in her life confirms what he is!

"You are with my mom's husband! My mom is married. You ARE evil."

Don't you see it!?! This is not righteous! They are hurting by HIM being in her life! How can I NOT explain to them where their hurt is coming from? And oh, by the way Chris, a psychiatrist DID confirm this action.

You all can pussyfoot around this issue with your children. My wife has chosen to move out of our home, break this family apart, and confuse the mess out of the children. That in itself is enough to mess them up. But what will only compound the issue is if Daddy pretends that it is not what it is. If Daddy side steps the issue and the behavior.

This statement nearly floored me, "Well, DUH! They have no experience with him and can ONLY go by what you say, even if it was 100% wrong. Why would they want to be around a the devil?

Why would they want to be around a man who has no respect for their family, period!? Do you hear what you just said?! HE IS SLEEPING WITH MY WIFE, THEIR MOTHER, THEY CRY THEMSELVES TO SLEEP AT NIGHT BECAUSE SHE IS WITH HIM! Why would they want to meet him? Even if he appeases them with candy and toys, it will NOT account for the pain they suffer now and will suffer for the rest of their lives.

And this person who just chimed in. Who are you?! And what do you know about my respect for my wife? What do you know about what "road" I'm taking with my children. I do not condone her behavior. And yes, I dog the heck out of the behavior. But my wife? My children will be the first to tell you how much I love her. My children will be the first to tell you how much I respect her. They see it. They feel it. They see the pain in my eyes and know that Daddy has strong feelings for their mother. They know, better than either of you, what is going on. They see its the BEHAVIOR that is hurting us and I am sure, God willing, that when they are old, they will remember that it was their mother's behavior that hurt this family and they will choose not to follow it!!! You all miss the point. You speak because you can and that is it.

d2ia:

Solon, this statement on your 1st post bothers me:

"Ah, well. All's well that ends well and I hopefully this ends well."

It is ending far from "well" and you know it. Don't play the drama game with your W. If you must DV, try doing it in a friendly manner. Read this eexcerpt about how 2 DV as friends: http://www.iloveulove.com/relationmarriage/saveyourmarriage.htm

Your work is not over yet.

-ol' 2long

Nevermind.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

The mere fact that they (the children) may find themselves around this man confirms what I have said about him!
Okay, so why do you need to reinforce it? If he is “evil” around them, then they see it and know it. Keep them away from him.

I tell them the man she left home for is bad, is evil.
Why is HE evil and bad? He didn’t drag your wife out of the house. And SHE is MORE evil and bad because she is the one who left them.

They only have to SEE him and his mere presence in her life confirms what he is!
Then so be it.

Don't you see it!?! This is not righteous!
Yes, I do see it. My whole post is about HOW you explain this to the children.

And oh, by the way Chris, a psychiatrist DID confirm this action.
The psych confirmed it is okay to tell them he is evil and the devils spawn?

You all can pussyfoot around this issue
Not trying to.

My wife has chosen to move out of our home, break this family apart, and confuse the mess out of the children.
And you are not helping or minimizing the situation at all.

But what will only compound the issue is if Daddy pretends that it is not what it is.
Where did you anyone say you should do that?

And this person who just chimed in. Who are you?! And what do you know about my respect for my wife?
I don’t see much respect for your wife either.

You all miss the point.
You seem to be missing our point.
The children should know what is going on. But only to the extent they need to know.
All your anger and hurt should NOT be played out/displayed in their lives.

You speak because you can and that is it.
Huh? I speak because I’ve been there. I know what I felt like saying and I know what the right thing to say is.

Nevermind.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 06:07 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

You all are something else.

Where do I start? Where do I start?

First off, the man is evil. Period. I don't think, at least I hope, you won't even try and argue that. The devil loves for families to be broken. If he could do it himself he would break up all the families. But he can't, so he gets people do it. In my case, he got Randy to do it. This man is straight from hell. He is a mercenary doing exactly what the devil wants him to do. He is his right hand man. All of hell is giving high fives now that this family is broken, and else where tears are being shed. So, point blank, he's evil.

Now is she evil too because she IS opening her legs and letting him in? Of course. I am not condemning either of them. Tomorrow morning he can wake up and look at my wife and say, "Hey, you're married... and you have children. I can't be with you. I'm out." He can change. She can change. But as long as they continue in this, they are of their father the devil. There is no getting around this people. When you willingly make a choice to do what is wrong and continue in that behavior it's bad and you're bad for doing it. If I drink every single day and continue doing this, I am an alcoholic. After going to AA or what have you and I cease that daily drinking then I am no longer an alcoholic, but a recovering alcoholic or an ex-alcoholic. But as long as I continue in a behavior...and if that behavior is evil, then I too am evil. Now if you have a problem with that reasoning, don't take it up with me, take it up the a higher authority, because I'm not the one who said it. So call it what you want, but when it all boils down, they are both evil. Period.

The children. Oh, how I wish my mother told me why my dad left. Oh, how I wish my mother told me exactly what I tell my children. If she had, I would have entered marriage with a whole new outlook. Someone said, one of you two said, that they now have a greater chance of walking in her shoes. Well, had she not been caught they would still be inclined to cheat. Harley said in his book we ALL are susceptible to cheat. In fact, he says we should expect it! That way we'll be on our toes and do what we need to do to prevent it. Had my mother told me the reason for my father's absence I would have today a greater awareness of what adultery is. Adultery is horrible. It's painful. It separates. Without even knowing what adultery is I would have known that whatever it is it's bad and I don't want to be involved with it. And that is where my children are. My children did see a christian therapist. And, I don't want to toot my own horn because I am thankful beyond belief, but he said that the children have a keen understanding of what is going on and that they are able to express their feelings very well. He was almost surprised on how well they were doing. He commended me for keeping it together and keeping them together (huh, little did he know how I felt like losing it). I am thankful for that and I don't give me credit. But I also know that it is attributed to being real with the children. We talk about it, we cry about it, we pray about it. This talk about trashing my wife, what?! They know if she were to come back home I would be estatic. If I were trashing her to them (I do trash her at times, but not to them) that would only confuse them if she came home. If I were bad mouthing her as a person our prayers would be confusing to them. But it's not. I am trashing the behavior. And they know that if she were to walk through that door that there would have been a change in her behavior.

you know, they used to stone adulterers. And quickly. What I'm doing is stoning the behavior. There is no doubt in my children's little mind that adultery is wrong. Mommy is doing a horrible, horrible, horrible thing. This is where their hurt is coming from. The OM, the one Chris suggests may not be that bad after all, is a horrible, horrible, horrible person for being involved with her. That is not trashing him or her. It's true! How can you bad mouth an adulterer? How can you bad mouth a murderer? Could I bad mouth Jeffery Dahmer? He murdered and ate innocent people! Telling his sick deeds and how they hurt people, how is that bad mouthing him? And yet adultery is a wrong on the same platform as murder! (ask me where I get that from and I will give you references).

We raise our children in the way that they should go and when they are old we are promised they will not depart from it. I am raising my children to know that adultery is wrong, and the parties invovled are wrong. They know it, they feel it. Yes, their mother is their mother. She gave them life. She used to do much for them. Right now, she is not doing anything but hurting them. I don't have to tell them that because they already know it. I simply tell them why. Somewhere in the good book it asks the question, "can a mother forget her suckling child that she would not have compassion on the child of her womb? Yes, it is possible" and right now it's happening to our children. I tell the children why it is happening. I don't tell them their mother is going to hell for her adultery. Because like I said, she may change. She may stop and come to her senses. I don't know. But what I do know is that adultery is horrible, it's selfish, it causes pain, it is causing the pain my children feel. And as their father, I tell them. I do know the OM is from hell. He darn sure ain't from heaven. The Lord definitely did not arrange this getting together. So he's evil. And I tell the children he's evil. I can picture them telling him he's evil for being with their mom. If you think this is messing them up, then I will just have to say you that you are messed up and there is nothing I can say to you because you are so messed up.

They love their mother, they hate what she is doing. I love their mother, I hate what she is doing. They have no respect for the om and do not want to see him. What more do they need to know about him to know they don't want to be around him? If I told you I knew a guy who murdered his mother and ate her, doesn't care that he did it, and is impentinent about doing it, would you care to meet him? Would you need to be around him to make the assessment that he is in fact a bad person? "Duh?" Then why would my children need to be around the man who played a part in murdering this family in order to know he is bad? They don't. Like I said, him just being there is proof enough.

But you all are set in your ways. Raise your children in the best way you can given these circumstances. Whether you want to tell them their parent's behavior is wrong, or you just want to say that they made a bad choice or if you want to say nothing at all, about what is going on and the other person, it up to you. Whatever you do I do hope your children grow up knowing what it was that caused them this pain.

I can go on and on and on about this. But...for what?

and oh, Kayla, compared to you I am omniscient when it comes to my children's feelings. And you say THEY are clueless??? I won't even address you.

I just read this: "And this person who just chimed in. Who are you?! And what do you know about my respect for my wife?
I don’t see much respect for your wife either.

Now how in the world can you see much of anything on a stinking message board??? other than what I show you??? Like we all have stated here on these boards, we vent. We "disrespect" here so we won't do it home. So you see what I show you. But that doesn't mean you see everything. If you did you would be like what Kayla said I am, omniscient.

Nevermind. It's wasted on you.

You can be right. Or you can keep your children, and raise them in a way that they do not fear what is a part of them.

YOU CHOOSE.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

Dead,

There is no easy way to say this other than to say it...you are harming your children. You are not looking at this clearly. All of your actions are motivated by your hate and jealousy toward this OM. Please get yourself to a therapist so you can get some help. There isn't a child psychologist in the world who would back what you are doing. IT IS BAD for the children. They have no business in the middle of their parents problems. You had no good purpose for them when telling them. It was all about you. You want to have them on "your side". They are HELPLESS and can do nothing about this entire situation. Leave them out of it.

Evil is a pretty strong word. Perhaps your meaning of it and mine are different. I've personally known no evil people. I'd rank Hitler and Saddam as evil. It's very doubtful that this man is on par with them. He's clearly got a questionable character, but evil??

Yes, feminine, evil. Very evil. I don't want to get preachy on this board or make it seem like I am a theologian, but when you step outside your marriage, which is one of the most sacred institutions given to man, then yes, it is exceedingly evil. From your point of view you think that this is not on the level of Sadam or Laden, but I tell you the truth, it is by far worse. Both of these men are doing horrible things, HORRIBLE, but they believe that what they are doing is right. In fact, in their sick minds they are doing what they are doing because they feel it is divinely approved. "in the name of Allah" Bin Laden said. They are not doing it for themselves. They will give their lives to kill.

My wife is doing it in the name of herself! Bin Laden attempts to kill people who he views as his enemy. My wife is mentally killing her own children, her husband! One pastor suggested that in her mind she has killed God in order to do what she is doing. Is it no wonder God hates adultery! Is it no wonder He treats it the way he does. It destroys innocent children and those who do, "it would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone (or an anchor) around their necks".

I tell you the truth when I say that their actions are the epitome of evil. It is evil personified. And the children, it is my responsibility to teach them this, especially that they are in the midst of it. I truly hate the fact that you believe I am hurting my children. My wife is torturing them. I am the one who has to see it. But, like the therapist said to me, they are doing well despite the fact, amazingly so. They laugh...often. The are surrounded by those who love them constantly. One person told me that her leaving is the best thing that has happened to them because their lives are so much more full than before. You honestly do not know when you speak. Rest assured, they are not being hurt by me. In fact, I have a mind to list numbers of various people who involved in their lives and let them tell you how amazing these children are doing. I am SO proud of them. They are 8 and 4 and they can tell you without a blink what is wrong and why they are hurting in this and what, with God's help they will try their best not to do. It's getting to the point where my wife does not even like talking to them because they make so much sense to her in how wrong she is, the guilt pushes her away. It's true, you don't have to avoid evil people, if you are good they will avoid you.

You sense anger in me now because you all are angering me by suggesting that I am hurting my hurting children. Yes, right now I am angry. I am angry at grown strangers who don't know better. And yes, I am angry at my wife and her lover as well. God is angry at them.

I wish you can talk to my two children. Talk to their teachers. Talk to their pastors, mentors. Maybe, MAYBE then you will see that indeed they are not being hurt by me. But, probably not. I say again, when people are set in their thoughts they are set in their thoughts. What she, their mother is doing is anger-invoking. They need to be angry at her behavior. Anything less is unhealthy. It is suppressing it.

Most likely, you are not in touch with your own feelings and you have difficulty expressing your true feelings, so expressing your hurt to your children in such a way where they can express their same hurt and frustration is alien to you.

Again, let me make it crystal clear, the children are not being told that their mother is a whore. They are not being told what their mother is doing at night when her lover is there. Nothing inappropriate is being told to the children by me. What IS being told is that adultery is WRONG. It is the adultery that is being attacked. It is the behavior. What is being told to them that it is okay to be hurt because that is the result of adultery. It is okay to be angry because that is the product of adultery. It truly boggles my mind that there are people who experience this and at the same time is opposed to calling it what it is. Hiding the wrong behavior is only permitting it. Downplaying it or minimizing it, like Chris suggests, is condoning it. Again, I don't want to get preachy, but look at how God treats those who openly do what is wrong. Cain boldly killed his brother and God put a mark on his that clearly said "You are a murderer". Everyone who saw him knew he killed his brother. Children knew it and they shunned him. Thousands of years later we are given a hierarchy of how we are to deal with this exact behavior. "go to them first and try and deal with it. If they don't stop, take two or more with you. If that doesn't work take the whole church/community. If they refuse to stop, shun them and call them out for what they are and let everyone turn away from them too." And in doing this, you can't keep the children in the dark. Let them know why you are angry and hurt, so when they get old, even if the pain is suppressed to the point to where they cannot remember, they may remember the pain "Daddy" experienced and that alone will turn them away from getting or being involved in adultery. Smiling and speaking like its not as bad as it is will do just that, make it seem like it is not that bad or not that hurtful or not that disgusting to God. And he will hold issue with you for doing that.

Why are you so bent on pretending that you are not hurt by this? How often do you cry? If you have children and their parent has left them how does that make you feel? What virtue is there in not explaining where your hurt, their hurt is coming from? How is that protecting your children? Use descretion, use love, but don't hide it.

Think about this for the rest of the day. A good man was terribly angry when He saw teachers and priests, rabbis, selling and cheating people in church. He became so angry he picked up a whip and began shouting and whipping people, turning over chairs and tables, and driving them all out. Do you think that there were no children in church that day that witnessed this? What do you think their reaction was to this? Do you think it "scarred" them for life? Or do you think that they received a clear understanding, based on this man's anger, how wrong the behavior of desecrating the temple is? I tell you, you can be angry and express it without harming, but rather helping in a way that nothing else can.


You all take care of yourselves and good luck to you in all of this.

Alright... Dead...let's look at this objectively for just a second. I know you porbably feel like everyone is against you here in this arguement, but I don't really think they are. Think about what your kids are going through here... I know, i know...you are. No, I mean put yourself in their shoes, not as an adult looking back on life but in their shoes as 4 or 8 year old. Look at this as they see it, without the benefit of experience. What do they see? They see that their mother is gone, she is with this other guy. I don't know if they have actually met him or not, but you have made them fully aware of him. Mom is not the mom that they have grown up with. She is this fog ridden alien. They don't know her anymore, they love her and want her back... but they can't quite figure it out. Think about how difficult and confusing this is to us as adults... imagine how a young child feels about the foggy mom!!! Now, that leaves you. What are they seeing from you? They see you spewwing this venom about her "behavior" (they will interpret it as a reflection on her... I can promise you that) and about this other man... the mercenary of Satan himself (or perhaps more fittingly, herself... if you've seen the Passion...). You are most likely comming off as bitter and angry and filled with hate. The kids are gonna pick up on this...

So, being stuck in the middle of this mess, what are they seeing? Mom is gone and Dad is acting liek a lunatic. Now, I'm assuming that you didn't tell them stuff like this before the affair? Right? You didn't spend time talking with your 4 year old about the devil and evil and condeming Mom's behavior? So basically you are not the Dad they had before either. At 4 and 8, can you imagine how stressful and scary it must feel to all of a sudden not have either of your parents there for you? Oh, sure... there bodies are here with us... but where is Mom and Dad?

Far be it from me to try and tell you how to raise and deal with your kids through this... and believe me, I know exactly where you are coming from... trust me i do. But your anger and frusteration is between you and her (and perhaps the OM)... but not your kids. Please, leave them out of it. It cannot be at all good for them. Really I hope you are just venting here... I really hope you are not actually telling your kids theses things. And if you are... I really hope you stop. You are going to make this much, much harder on them in the long run.

Good luck, I'm with ya... I just disagree a little with what you are saying here.

Dead,

My heart goes out to you. There is so much anger in your posts. Don't misunderstand, it is appropriate anger at what you are having to deal with. I wish we could have an hours long conversation in person. There is so much I'd like to share with you in hopes that it would help you see that involving your kids in any manner with adult problems is very, very wrong. I fear that the day you realize the true harm you are doing to you kids that you won't be able to deal with it. It's very clear that you are a loving, giving father. No one is saying that you aren't. Only that you are allowing the anger and jealousy in you to get in the way of doing what is best for your kids. The mother is a whole different issue. You don't even want to know what I would write to her! She is doing so much harm. But it is you that is posting and at some level wanting to cope with these feelings you are having. I'm not married and my now ExH cheated on me many years ago. I've had enough years to see the mistakes that I made when I was in your very shoes. I also see the damage that *I* did to my children. Not because I thought I was at the time, not because I meant to, but I still did. I can't change it. How I wish I'd had someone counsel me on my actions. And I didn't involved them nearly as much as you have your children. Beware, Dead, you will not like the results of your actions in the years to come. Make no mistake that by saying even the least word against the mom, that you are harming the kids very own self-esteeem!

Let's talk about age. Children do not even have the ABILITY to understand issues that you have put on their little plates until at least the age of 14. It is documented by experts in the field of child development that "reasoning" skills do not exist prior to that age. Your kids are NOT reasoning out anything. They are only mimicking what they hear daddy say! You are doing them a GREAT injustice by pushing concepts at them they couldn't possibly understand. Adulty??? You've got to be kidding me. Do you talk about sex with 4 and 8 years olds? Much less, their mother's sex life? Give your kids the gift of not being involved in such crap. What can they do? Nothing. What do they understand, nothing beyond their mother is gone and you have told them in a multitude of ways that she is "bad". They CANNOT differentiate between linking the adultry (which they only understand as something really bad) with their Mother. They are feeling: afraid (because they don't understand and you are giving them MORE to not understand), confused because they love their mother, conflicted because you have put them in the situation of "loving" a person who is "bad". Conflicted also because they will instinctively want to support you and you are making it clear that they should.

Go talk to a child therapist and get the total understanding that you need before more harm is done.

Please take this in the manner it is offered...only to HELP you and yours.

Take care and big hugs.