Java - I don't have the book that I had for last semester, but there are cases and cases of where women are not treated on equal basis on pay. I will give you an instant I remember with Mrs. Clinton. She brought up a policy, (can't remember what it is right now, but it is in the book), and who got the presentation and admiration for the policy, Mr. Clinton.

Look at Police women, there is a friend of mine that his son is a policman, and he stated that police women do not get as much pay as a woman. And how many woman get promoted to supervisor of their department, ?.

Another point is, a female supervisor of a department will not get as much pay as a male supervisor. If I had the book I could give you the name and pages to look at.

Society runs on a male mind, male dominance. Why do you think there has been no female president as yet. Mrs. Clinton might be the first. Look at how long it took for Mayors to be women. Java, I was so surprised how our government runs male dominant, and the book states that males are fighting to keep females in a lower position.

My position with my husband was that I felt I was suppose to be in that position. Not many of my friends understood why I felt that I had to ask, had to get permission. If I had to do it over, I would of stated from the beginning that I need to have my independence, and need to express myself, as I am an intelligent woman with a great mind.

I made many mistakes, for I was not able to show myself. I did want my husband as the head of the house, I did want my hsuband to be the one to make the final statement. When I was not able to make decisions and not able to express myself, it became a deserted lonely life for me. I enjoyed be a mother of 4 children. I enjoyed raising my children. I believe I would of been happier if I could of had an opportunity to express myself in someway beyond mothering my children and being a wife to my hsuband. After all, everyone of us, wives & hsubands need to have their interested persued.

I do believe that these issues did escalate into each of us wanting to be independent, but were bound by the circumstances of the family.

It would of been nice if marriage builders were there for all of us when we were younger. My emotional needs were not getting met, as well as my x husbands. These feelings developed into anger, and resentment by both of us. WE all wanted to be the best parents we could be, we all wanted to have a happy family. We were not educated to realize that life takes many obscure turns that develop into arguments and unhappiness.

Cherished, I am sorry, but I don't understand your statement. Please clairfy for me, as I am wanting to make myself a better person, and I didn't understand.

Good night for tonight. I just got home from school and I am whipped. The class was very educational tonight. I have a big paper to do, and need to get to the library and do research.

If any of you know a site where I can go to for 'Adult Day Care'. Please let me know. I have to do a policy paper on 'Adult Day Care'. KNowing that the generation I am in is growing daily, and we all are getting to the age that we will be senior citizens SHORTLY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , there is going to be a need for adult day care.

Information would be appreciated, thank you.

I have a book at home about the male/female job issues. While I've had some issues last year, they were only related to the frequent and sometimes (if we had to immediately see judge for emergency hearing)immediate court hearings..But I'm doing quite well. I am paid fairly well and don't see any difference between myself and the men in my field. Incidentally, my sub specialty is male-dominated and I am just fine with that.

I disagree with your sweeping statements about the Canadian health systems. Try to go get an MRI or any other OP diagnostic procedure over there without having to wait almost a year. People die there waiting to have bypass surgeries. It is a much more broken system with ours. Mind you, nobody is a textbook and for those with literally no health issues at all, say maybe needing an antibiotic once a year for the flu or something, my belief is our health system is best in the world. I am not a supporter of socialized medicine and find it primarily archaic.

Sorry..at work and had to inject. Anyway, I have found that my working at a mostly male company and when I am working in cardiac with mostly males, they're much nicer than no offense, my female coworkers. They are understanding about me being a single mom, understanding if I need to (only a little as I leave baggage at home and here)vent a little or get the male perspective.

Faith I know it's hard to be a woman and a single mom entering into a world we didn't want to be a part of. I just try now to look at it as an adventure. I got elected state prez of my medical society and our incoming prez for this next year is a female too..again, in a male dominated profession.

I can't remember the exact title, but in about oct. of last year I read a book and I think the title is "play like a woman but win like a man" or something like that. It helped me use my female attributes (not looks ok?)to my advantage and still be competetive in the shark eat shark business world. I will try to find that exact title.

Don't focus on the x ok? Try your KEEP IT ON YOU.

I'm in an abuse fog -- I need to forgive him, I contributed to problems in our marriage, etc. -- but I think that I am coming out of it somewhat because I KNEW that the affair was HIS problem and NOTHING I did justified his having an affair with a married woman. Besides, it didn't just affect me. It affected her and her husband.

Anyway, I think the reason I put up with abuse had to do with my religious belief in sacrifice. I wanted to sacrifice for the good of our marriage. He was off spending $50/week playing golf, and I was home clipping coupons and having the children sleep in "nightshirts" rather than buying them pajamas.

The affair was a wake-up call that something was terribly wrong with ME. The book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" helped me to see that I was trying to sacrifice (be a GIVER) but that approach is not sustainable. Sooner or later, you end up getting fed up and becoming a TAKER. The key is to do what is mutually beneficial. Golf was not. Tom lunching with Sophia was not. My becoming a maid in my own house was not.

I question if Christ does want you to sacrifice -- to tithe. That money might be better spend on taking care of YOU. Christ died for YOU. How are you treating YOU? Buy some fresh flowers for your kitchen table. Treat yourself to a latte at a coffee store. Put in some "frivilous" expenditures.

I look back and realize that my being willing to spend money on "frivilous" expenditures might have avoided thousands of dollars in therapy, medical expenses, and marriage counseling.

Peachy - I just read for school '20 Myths about Canadian Health Insurance'. We talked about it last night in class. I am having a hard time deciding which is better. Yes, there was case after case of neglect to those in real need. People dying because of cardiac problems, a little boy died because hospitals would not take him, yes to get an MRI they wait about 18 months. Another case was just to get a simple test for carpal tunnel takes about 8 months. Socialized medicine does help in some ways, but after reading the 78 pages I seem to be bending more toward independent medicine. One of the big money takes of our government is the paperwork. According to the pages I read, it costs about $8 per page per person for administrative paper work. They talked about a card that would get all our health on a card, so when we had a new Dr. they could put it in the computer and print off your history, and it would be continuously updated. There are 3 areas in the US that are doing this now, with great success. Our country spends almost 3 times on admistrative costs than any other country.

Also, our drug costs are so high. That is where we should have stablizied costs for each drug, and of course the salesdrug personnel, would lose out, cause they bring gifts and take the Dr. out to lunch to get a sale. But who needs the sales people when it comes to drugs.

Yes, I am concentrating more on myself, and it feels good. I am a wonderful woman, an intelligent woman, with great gifts of giving, compassion, and love.

Cherished, you talk about sacraficial marriage. I too, sacrificied myself for my X. He has a deep anger problem, and goes ballistic so easily. I was afraid to state anything opposite of him for fear of being yelled at.

I will give an instance today. My daughter called last night and she had a medical procedure done. She doesn't want to go back to the same Dr. she saw before the medical procedure, because of lack of communication. She called me last night after school to see if I could call today to find another Dr. I had 2 appts. this morning, and told her I would do this when I got back. I made the call, and had a very nice receptionist (male) to talk to. He also stated that X had called this morning. I talked to him about the Dr. she was seeing and I talked to him about her seeing a female. He highly recommended the Dr. that I made an appointment with. Said people from all over the country are referred to her. She is older and very compassionate, and is very knowledgeable in this field. The other Dr. he told me is new to the field, and he had a language barrier, and didn't seem to my daughter to listen to her. I asked many ?'s about this Dr. and I told him please make an appt. to see her, and disregard the other Dr. So I called my X after I called the Hospital. And after I stated my first sentence of saying I made an appt. with Dr. (female), he yelled and went ballistic. I hung up on him, and said I don't have to take this anymore. I was calling to tell him that I made the call and asked about a good Dr. in the field needed, and the male receptionist was very knowledgable. Anyways, this has been the pattern during my whole marriage. I can't do anything right. And whatever I do, is never good enough. My daughter called me last night to do this for her, which I said I would be happy to do it. He called me right back, and started on how he handled everything and etc. and once again, I hung up. He called again, and as soon as I heard his voice, I hung up. He called again, and I hung up again.

Then he calls my oldest daughter, she is upstairs in her room working on her website, and she comes down to tell me to call dad, and talk civilized to him. I didn't say anything, cause of course she sides with her father, he gives her everything, and just paid for a 3 week vacation in 2 states. I will talk to her later, about her statement. So my youngest son and I had to go somewhere, and I took my cell phone, and I called on his cell phone, and he started again, I hung up. And then I turned the phone off.

On the way home, he called me on the cell phone, cause I turned it on again. I was expecting a call. And he was somewhat civilized. But I did hang up on him later. I am no longer taking his abusive lanugage, and yelling at me. He has to learn to control his anger, and his ballistic actions. So I got home and he called me on the cell phone and it was civilized. Of course he got into how I raised my voice, I said, yes, of course, after he started yelling at me and telling me what I should do. I said, I called to inform you of the appointment I made. I am learning that a controller hates for anyone to not to follow him. I had nothing to follow except my daughers request. And I stated to him, that I no longer am going to listen to his ballistic behavior. I will hang up, and continue to hang up until he becomes civilized.

This man has no friends, except you guys here. He has always been a loner. And that is his problem. Not mine. I wanted to meet new people, join groups, and exercise groups and etc. But he didn't. Now he can reap his friendless life.

Just an update, on his excessive control and manipulation. I am setting boundaries, and that is the way it is. I am being a kind woman, and I will treat him with respect, but he has to treat others and me with respect. No longer am I going to hear his ballistic actions again. I am no longer married to the man, and no longer have to hear his cussing.

Going for now. See you later.

BUT YOU ARE HEARING HIS CUSSING?

You have e-mail, and he has e-mail. Use it! Why call him at all except in an emergency? A Dr. appointment does not qualify as an emergency.

Looking back, I think I viewed it as a "chit" game. I was earning chits by forgiving disrespectful behavior and I thought Tom would eventually turn the corner if I forgave. NO -- it just escalated.

Cut him off. Maybe you could find someone with a cell phone who would be willing to be the third party if there is an emergency.

The bottom line, though, is that there is something about YOU that told you it was OK for you to be treated the way you have been treated. You are not still married, but you are still taking phone calls so you are still allowing yourself to be mistreated.

Hi Faith4me,

I agree that it was a nice thing to do for your daughter after she asked you to. I don't understand why you called your ex to tell him about it because it was something between you and your daughter. If your daughter wanted her dad to know the results or who did it, she would tell him.

Faith4me, you and your ex provide different things as parents. You've written here many times about your unhappiness that you cannot provide money and your ex can. This situation is just one example of something you can provide that your ex cannot. Your daughter knew who to go to for help with this just like she knows where to go for money. I think your dealings with your daughter will be more beneficial to both of you if you keep your ex out of it, including reporting to ex what you have done for her. If she was a child I would suggest something different, but she's 25 and an adult.

I'm glad that you did not accept ex's verbal abuse. I hope you can come up with a plan of action that keeps you from being in a position to be subjected to ex's verbal abuse at all.

Take care.

Loving B - this was my 21 year old daughter. My 25 and I got into an argument, cause she said I should call dad, cause he is the one paying for the insurance. So that is why the 25 year old has past due surgery bills from 5 ot 6 years old. That is why dad has surgery bills from 7 to 8 years old. That is why I have bills past due for 1 1/2 years old. She told me that dad is the one paying the bills that he should be the first to be notified. Also, the 21 year old did talk to dad the same night, and had him do the same thing as she asked me to do. But as the 25 year old stated, since dad is paying the bills that I need to tell dad, and dad doesn't have to tell me. No sense to me, and I told her if she wants to live with dad, go ahead and pack your bags. Dad sure says he is paying insurance, $5000 deductable, and hasn't paid any of them yet, and I don't expect him to.

Oh yeah, X wanted me to go to the bank to get a paper notarized with my signature for signing off the house in Arizona, that X bought with the other woman, and had his wonderful sex in that vacant house with the other woman. I told him I was busy tonight, studying, and he said what about tomorrow. I sort of had plans, but now they are concrete for tomorrow. So I said no, he said it has to be done soon. I said it can wait till tomorrow. But no, when X says he wants something done, then he wants it done NOW!!!! So I said no, it will have to wait till tomorrow. He said what if I gave you $20. I said you haven't even paid me to go to the court with him before my vacation, and we used my vehicle. And he hasn't even paid me for watching the phone a few times, when no one else could. His excuse is always, he is not good at paperwork. So I said no. So he said how about $50 dollars to go to the bank tonight. I said $100. So I went for $100, just to sign my name and show my ID. We got back, and I asked for the money. He said you are going to take it, and I said I sure am. A deal is a deal, and if he doesn't keep his verbal word, then he can go fly the kite. I went to court just for him, no one else, cause he got a letter from the state stating that he better show up. So I had him pay me for that tonight too. No longer am I responsible for his actions.

He is also notified that he better have my medical bills paid off by June 6, 1 year from the divorce. Per judges order. His time with her has passed many months ago, so I am giving him a year. As many of you know, he plays hardball with my life. He plays controller and manipulator. No longer is he going to control and manipulate me. I am finding a new life, with God and with people who are genuine friends. I am finding christian people to go out with, and one day I hope to find a christian man that loves me after his love for God.

I realize now that he only wants to control a woman, he doesn't want a woman to ever be equal. It is ironic, the bimbo that he had his affair with, on her conversations with me, she said she never loved my x hsuband, she only had euphoria and fantasy with him. And that the only man she will ever loved is her husband. She realized that my X was a controller, and manipulated her into doing things that she didn't want to do. And she said no man is going to control her life again.

I do still pray for my X to get the demon out of his body, and to come to Gods path. There is nothing wrong with that. I pray for enemies, as well as people I care about. I also pray that I grow stronger each day, and now realize that I no longer have a deep love for my X. I do care about him deeply, and hope that he finds happiness somewhere. But now I know whomever he should end up with, that woman is going to be miserable with his controlling & ballistic behavior. She is going to have to set boundaries at the beginning, and he is going to hate that. For he wants a SUBMISSIVE wife, and one that lets him control every inch. He should realize that our 2 daughters are not going to let their husband (if it should happen) control their life like he controlled mine. They told me that I was a whimp to dad. And that I did let dad walk all over me. I said yes, that I did, and that was my fault. But now X thinks I am a vindictive woman, and a cold hearted woman. No I am not, I am finding myself, and being a kind loving woman with a great big heart and a love for JESUS!

Hi Faith4me,

I'm afraid some of this will sound harsh because it's in written form, so I want to remind you that I care about you. When I look back to when we first started posting to each other, it is easy to see some of the progress you've made between then and now. Faith4me, you will continue to make progress for as long as you want to--despite falling back into old familiar habits sometimes. Really, Faith4me, would you agree that you don't stay in those old familiar habits nearly as long as you used to? Each time it gets a little shorter and, if you keep focused on YOUR path, one day it won't happen at all any more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said:
"My 25 and I got into an argument, cause she said I should call dad, cause he is the one paying for the insurance."

Why did you do what she thought you should do? Do you think so highly of the decisions she makes for herself that you felt comfortable doing what she thought you should do?

You said:
"I said you haven't even paid me to go to the court with him before my vacation, and we used my vehicle. And he hasn't even paid me for watching the phone a few times, when no one else could. His excuse is always, he is not good at paperwork."

You didn't get cash up front this time either--after all the times he has renegged on paying you in the past, and with his history of not paying many, many bills after the services have already been rendered? I'm surprised you got money due to you this time. How much paperwork does it take to pull the green out of a wallet? Please be cautious about rendering any service for him without being paid up front--unless you get cash up front, you will most likely have to wait a long time to see that money if you EVER see it.

You said:
"No longer am I responsible for his actions."

You never were responsible for his actions--you only thought you were. Just like all of us, you ARE responsible for your own actions and always were.

You said:
"As many of you know, he plays hardball with my life."

Who cares what HE plays? Because it makes you very unhappy with yourself and your life, I do care that you allow him to play hardball with you.

You said:
"He should realize that our 2 daughters are not going to let their husband (if it should happen) control their life like he controlled mine."

Unfortunately, statistics disagree with this. Statistics show that the most probable thing is that they will trade one controller for another (unless the new spouse is also willing to be controlled by the original controller). Statistics also show that the main way this cycle is broken is when one of the parents breaks their own cycle.

You know what Faith4me? I almost didn't read this thread because of the title. No offense to either of you, but if I wanted to be reminded of how messed up your ex is I would read HIS threads. I remember that most of your help from others here came when you focused on you, only you. I also remember that it led to some of your biggest progress and support. I hope you consider changing the title of this thread into something worthwhile--YOU!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care.