sufdb,

--HOWEVER, all other things being equal, people prefer to stick together along kinship lines, you don't see that in your everyday travels?

TR--And no, I don't see this very often--and in those that I do *see* it--there are a lot more problems of everyone butting into everyone else's business--and not allowing others to live their own lives--I see more lack of respect between family members who live close to each other--than those who don't--


--this is about adv choosing to remain within her family at this time as she pursues her goals...why are you implying that is a bad? Unhealthy? choice?

TR--Yes, I am saying this sounds like an unhealthy
choice for her--because it appears just by virtue that she's posted here--with all the myraid of problems she's encountering in this situation--that she is being pulled into the middle of it--and for a child to be pulled into the middle of parental problems is not a healthy place to be--


--Certainly she could choose to "leave" but that is the whole point, we have choices, and remaining within your kinship unit is not a dysfunctional choice per se....anymore than leaveing is a functional choice per se (the prodigal son comes to mind)....lots of people leave their family support system, and fare very very badly.. lots don't leave, and do poorly as well.

TR--Yes, it's her choice to stay in the middle of it--you are absolutely right--but from what she has shared it sure doesn't sound like a healthy choice--

-- And friends often make terrible support systems, just like parents do sometimes...but it is more likely parents, siblings, extended family have your best interests at heart than random friendships (which is what most so-called freindships are)...friends encourage all sorts of unhealthy choices and behaviors too ya know.

TR--and if her parents are continually placing the children in the middle of chaos--either by going where they are not welcome--or by calling the other one over only to complain about them and bad mouth them--it is not in her best interest
but hey--maybe I'm wrong--maybe it IS in her best interest---


--Why? Human beings have left home over the years at all sorts of ages, why do draw the line at high school, but a day after graduation one must be on their own (to make a point)...what is the difference? Or is it 1 month, 6 months, a year...2 years, 10 years....what is the magical formula?

TR--In all honesty--I don't draw the line here--but in this case--she's complaining about the circumstances in which she's living--if she doesn't like the circumstances then she should do something to change them--and as well all know and understand we can't change someone else--then the only option is for her to take responsibility for her own living situation--


--Personally I have always detested the notion that just cause someone has the money they automatically get to make the rules...how about you tr?

TR--I'm sorry, but since when can't the owner of a home set down ground rules for their home? or a parent set down ground rules for their children??
it's not about money at all--it's about what rules the owner of the home wishes to lay down--

When your children lived under your roof you didn't lay down certain rules for them???


--If someone drives someone else away, that may close all the doors permanently, or at least seriously impair future efforts to reconcille cause it is an unfair resolution.....

TR--Yes, it can close all doors if they choose to let it--

--if people seperate it should me a mutual decision that meets both their needs, and that does not sound like what she is describing does it.

TR--I would disagree in saying that it should be a mutual decision--

If one party is abusive--it would seem illogical for the abused person to seek a mutual agreement from their abuser in order to protect themself--
at some point they need to take responsibility of protecting themself--


--You mean trying to find a healthy resolution to dysfunctional behavioir? Seems to me running away would be more childlike...hanging in there is tough, and adult. Tr, you may be trying to help, but sounds more like you are projecting your own stuff on to someone elses life.

TR---Who said anything about running away? I suggested she move out--to her own place--that is not the same as running away from the problem--I didn't suggest she never talk to her mother again-
or even run away from the problems--but more to remove herself from the direct pathway of the situation--so that she can gain a new perspective-

--It is no ones responsibility but each of us, to grow, behave properly, and be responsible... Her mother needs to behave herself in the presence of family members, not behave herself cause they are gone, and can hang up or avoid her....

TR--Her mother "needs" to behave herself in the presence of family members??? She *NEEDS* too???
Why does she NEED to?? She can behave however she wants to behave--that is her choice--and it is also the choice of those who live with her or who are friends with her to choose to be around her when she behaves in a certain manner--

Now, I do agree that she SHOULD act respectfully to others in her family--but she doesn't NEED to--

--that doesn't fix the underlying problem, it just ignores it...and she needs to quit being a victim and trying to manipulate everything and everyone to support that mindset. That is best accomplished by "doing it" not running everyone off so she can live in denial...there is no accountability then.

TR--How is there no accountablity?? Mom, either you treat me with respect or I don't spend time with you--

Mom, Please do not call my house until you can talk to me with respect---

Mom, Please do not call my house and complain to me about dad--if that is all you calling to talk about--then call someone else--because I don't want to hear it--


--If you keep the kids, then you must accept the home is not totally yours, the other family members have rights too, they are not your property.

TR--And as the parent and homeowner--I have a say in who comes into my home--there are even certain friends of my children's I will not allow to come in to my home--

--It seems pretty strange that adult children can have anyone they want over...except the other parent, what are they...chopped liver? Lepers? Clearly this is situational, depends on behaving properly, the size of the home, time of day, whether it conflicts with something in particular....

TR--Clearly if the adult children know that having the other parent in their home is going to cause conflict with the parent they are living with--they would respect that parent enough to honor their request in not inviting the other parent over--


--This post suggests family isn't of much importance to you tr, I am surprised. Why does everyone keep trying to kick her kids out of the house anyways? They are all well-behaved, productive, nice people, this is their home....so now they get booted out?

TR--On the contrary--I have the greatest respect for family--if they treat each other with said respect--but that is apparently not the case here-

And nobody is trying to kick her kids out--we are only offering suggestions on what we see would be helpful for her--in order to ensure the peace she is seeking--by taking responsibilty for her own living situation--


--Maybe people should spend more time on f4m, and holding her accountable instead of feeding/validateing her inappropritate anger/behavior.

TR--And I do challenge her when I post to her--but like others--she doesn't take the suggestions
either--


--I didn't see her say she was owed anything, I see her asking why her mom won't behave in a manner conducive to good relationships, and I saw her mention a number of very specific concerns

TR--And as an adult--if her mother is NOT acting in a manner that brings on a good relationship she has a choice to move out--if she chooses to stay--then that is her choice and is basically telling her mother--I don't care how you act--I am willing to put up with it--

--I imagine they will all move on, there is little reason not too, but unless one is independently wealthy, just pciking up and going is not always a viable option.

TR--I agree it's not always easy to do--but it is always an option--

--In the meantime f4m has a terrific opportunity to restore repair her relationships with her kids, one would hope she doesn't throw that away.

TR--And I agree 100%--but it's ultimately her choice to do that or not--

--As for being bombarded with the past, what does that mean...she has it no harder than anyone else, and a whole bunch easier than most.

TR--How is it this isn't harder on her than anyone else?? Her children have and always will have a different relationship with their father--
than she did--and to be reminded of his affair over and over--I imagine is pretty painful every time he steps foot in her home--or even when he calls--to inform her he's going to see this woman-

In my opinion--if he didn't call and inform her--
and she found out later and got mad--that is her problem--but in that he did call her--it was like rubbing salt in a wound--which was totally disrespectful--and she had every right to feel hurt when that wound was re-opened--

but even with being hurt--it wasn't right that she went on a rampage to share all the details of the affair with her children--respect should go both ways--if they want to be treated with respect
they need to also treat her with respect--

--She needs to count her blessings (of which she has many) a little more, own her own substantial role in where she is, and quit trying to convince everyone she comes across she is just some poor mistreated woman....her life is exactly what she made it near as I can see, and it will be as good or bad as she continues to make it....it's my guess anger, hostility, victimhood, and denial won't serve her well.

TR--and again I agree

ADV
Where is your mom right now and how is she. I am very concerned, she didnt just take a "break" she was in extreme distress when she last posted.

Dawn

LovingBoundaries:

I should clarify when I said friends, I meant the physical friends that she interacts with in person here in our community. Sorry, about that! I think of you guys more like a support community and I do agree many of you are saying what she needs to hear.

Sunrise:

She is fine, just busy (sister's health, paperwork, a lot of homework). Actually, being busy helps her a lot as it allows her to focus on the things in her life that are taking her forward and not looking back. Part of the reason I wish she would pursue her art more! She needs to do it on her own, instead of just in her class or her class assignments. It is something she enjoys a lot, is good at and she can profit by selling the pieces as well. A great self-confidence boost for her. Also, many times art is a form of therapy and release. She could focus on the art instead of sitting and stewing about all the things wrong with her life.