LL & TW ~ what wonderful counsel! I needed to hear what both of you are saying to me.

I need to pursue that balance for sure.

TW, she has family all around, but they are basket cases themselves. She's generally been the one they looked to for stability. OM? I don't know. I never tried to prove the existence of another OM beyond the one she had in 1999. Evidence leans towards one, but I don't follow her around and obsess, etc.

She's a big girl. She's an executive for one of America's leading companies. She can certainly figure out how to deal with her own manufactured life problems.

I agree. I think it's to the very BOTTOM for her before she comes up any.

What a mess life turns out to be at times....

High Flight

Newly..I have just bee reading thru some of this post for the first time. You mention co-dependency as being traced back to FOO. I dont believe I have read that, but at any rate. My childhood was extremely good, with no abuses, well mostly anyway ( i was molested by neighbor when I was 12, we moved away, and I really dont think that affected my emotional outcome). My father was a minister and both sides of our family were normal, got along well.

How did I end up with such a screwed up life?

I missed going to South Street tonite. I hope you had a good time. I would still like to meet you guys sometims.
Smiles,
Dawn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My quandry right now is how available to be for her in her current depression and crisis?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi HF. Sorry to hear that she also has pneumonia.

I was saddened to hear that your divorce was finalized, but there really isn't much of a "quandry" there, though. You ARE divorced, but that doesn't "release" you or me from helping another person (even an ex-wife) who is hurting, ala the Good Samaritan.

Have you considered that perhaps God is "turning up the volume" of His search for a "lost sheep?" I am still going on our previous conversations that you think that she did have a "saving" faith at one point. Also, even though you and I disagree on the point of "once saved, always saved", I believe that God does go after one of His lost sheep with increasing intensity.

I am a bit too tired tonight to get into a lengthy post, but suffice it to say that it would appear that God may be applying the rod. That may get her attention or she may still have to really hit bottom mentally and physically before she stops running from God.

Divorce notwithstanding, you do still love her, even if it's just the sort of love that one would have for another believer, or even for a nonbeliever, as God has commanded. So the quandry is really how best to demonstrate God's love as His "stand in." Yes, I know it can come with some emotional trial for you, but you can handle it, especially with the addition of God's promised strength.

Even though the road may be hard, or the flight path littered with turbulence, try hard to mirror God's love for you, another forgiven sinner. "Lord, when did I do these things to you?"

God bless and give you His wisdom and strength so that you may be able to comfort another with the comfort that you have received through Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My quandry right now is how available to be for her in her current depression and crisis?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi HF. Sorry to hear that she also has pneumonia.

I was saddened to hear that your divorce was finalized, but there really isn't much of a "quandry" there, though. You ARE divorced, but that doesn't "release" you or me from helping another person (even an ex-wife) who is hurting, ala the Good Samaritan.

Have you considered that perhaps God is "turning up the volume" of His search for a "lost sheep?" I am still going on our previous conversations that you think that she did have a "saving" faith at one point. Also, even though you and I disagree on the point of "once saved, always saved", I believe that God does go after one of His lost sheep with increasing intensity.

I am a bit too tired tonight to get into a lengthy post, but suffice it to say that it would appear that God may be applying the rod. That may get her attention or she may still have to really hit bottom mentally and physically before she stops running from God.

Divorce notwithstanding, you do still love her, even if it's just the sort of love that one would have for another believer, or even for a nonbeliever, as God has commanded. So the quandry is really how best to demonstrate God's love as His "stand in." Yes, I know it can come with some emotional trial for you, but you can handle it, especially with the addition of God's promised strength.

Even though the road may be hard, or the flight path littered with turbulence, try hard to mirror God's love for you, another forgiven sinner. "Lord, when did I do these things to you?"

God bless and give you His wisdom and strength so that you may be able to comfort another with the comfort that you have received through Christ. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH ~ Always good to hear from you.

Agreed God is turning up the consequences heat on her right now.

Agreed I'm to pray for her and help her as I should any other human being.

BUT, I'm divorced. God recognizes divorce as legitimate. He hates it. I do too. But is is valid, for He ALWAYS honors the ultimate freedom...CHOICE. And so must I.

Therefore, just as God had to accept Israel's choice of divorce, so must I. Just as God had to move on from His chosen bride, so must I.

It is not appropriate for me to continue as her support net to use at her convenience and whim. I can pray for her & help her as I would any other person, but not as a wife.

To hang on to another after ultimate rejection is a sure-fire way to mental illness. God doesn't want us to do that at all. In fact, it becomes sin to NOT let someone go!!

So, I've put her in Jesus' very capable hands. I'm tasked with becoming healed and whole again emotionally. That means achieving a complete emotional divorce from her. That's why in 1 Cor 7, God says "we are no longer bound" to one who choses abandonment and divorce.

If she choses to repent and return at some point in the future, IF I'm in a position to love her again at that time, I would be thrilled to do so, as long as God approved. Meanwhile, I'm moving on in Christ as I'm supposed to.

God bless you,
High Flight

Hi HighFlight,

How are you? How's the job going? Still flying high? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have a friend who is a hobby pilot. He took me up in a small plane from a nearby small airport... on September 10... the day before the infamous September 11 disaster.

It had been years since I had been in a plane. I thoroughly enjoyed the sensation of those metal wings defeating gravity for me. I'm one of those... ain't no grave gonna hold me! types. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So I loved flying above it all... on a more physical plane...

I think you're response is quite balanced and healthy. Each of us "knows", or at least has the ability to "know", the reality of our divorce situation. At least that is true of those of us who are known by God.

I'm not one to believe they are all the same. I have to believe there are some cases where sin pulls a partner, irretrievably, out of a covenant relationship... and, other times, sin pulls a partner retrievably out of a covenant relationship. That, I suppose, depends on the reality of both partner's personal relationship with the Lord - cause the Bible says it is He who holds all things together. If there is a break, what kind of a break was it? Each situation is unique.

I suppose if it were true that God was still in the center of a relationship - that relationship could be restored - though one or both partners had drifted (become incompatible) away for a season.

And IF that was the case, as you say you would both, at some future point, feel very comfortable with making a new choice to restore.

Until then, one would think, it is best to address the situation as it is on face value and to respond appropriately and to, thereby, remain whole.

I wasn't here for the "once saved/always saved" discussion. And I don't like to debate. Discuss, yes. But argue - no. You don't strike me as the arguing type. So, do you believe we are "once saved/always saved"? Which side of the puzzle do you weigh in on?

"Choice" is an interesting point. We choose Christ. Yet it is Christ who chose us first. Our choice of Him, it would appear upon greater level of depth of examination, is a response of the choice He initiated. So choice is relational... and God is the source... when the choice is one of life in Christ. Christ, also, is the source of every right choice we as Christians will make subsequent to salvation... for apart from Him we can do nothing... and we must be "in Him" to do His works. We must abide in Him and He must abide in us for us to do the works He does in and through us... to bear His fruit. We must be in the Spirit to walk in the Spirit... to choose by the Spirit. Choice. An interesting phenomena.

Then there's the "flip side" of once saved/always saved. It would tend to say, in a parallel truth,... the flipped side of the same coin... not saved/never saved. It would say that the reason some appeared to be saved for a season then revealed themselves later not to be saved is not explained by the loss of salvation subsequent to salvation... but the absence of true salvation in the first place. Opens a whole nuther... can of works... worms. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> lol

Anyway, I value your insights. Curious what you might weigh into the phenomena of salvation and choice. Well, I love to ponder the deeper truths... and something tells me you have and do too.

My XH wanted me to "help him" when he became ill after our divorce. I chose not to do so. I didn't feel it was God's will for me personally. He was the kind of person who wanted to ride my coattails into Heaven, and wanted me to take on all of his responsibilities here on earth... so he could self-destruct... and leave me holding the bomb. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No thanks! I dropped the bomb and ran for my life! lol

Laura

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Therefore, just as God had to accept Israel's choice of divorce, so must I. Just as God had to move on from His chosen bride, so must I. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying, though I disagree with the conclusion that you have drawn.

Yes, you are divorced and no, I am not saying that need to be a "doormat" of any kind. What I was talking about is the "Good Samaritan" sort of thing. Regardless of the state of the broken person laying in the street, we are not to "walk around them" on the other side of the street waiting for "someone else" to provide assistance. We are not "better" and we don't get "contaminated". If it is within our means to assist, we are commanded by God to assist, even if we would rather not touch the leper or be in their vicinity.

Can it be "hard" on you? Yes. Can it "cost you" material and emotional capital? Yes. God doesn't care about that, He merely says to "Do it!", to be obedient to His model, to heal the ear that was cut off even though the person was and "enemy", to be His example of agape love.

Returning to the quote, God has not "moved on" from Israel. Israel is His chosen people and the people of His covenant. God did not "move on" from his chosen bride, He expanded the covenant to include those who were not originally included, and will close THAT door when all have "come in." He will then return His sole attention to Israel, as we all are in spirit and not by physical descent.

That you have to "accept" the reality of the divorce is obviously true, as God does not force anyone to come to Him. But God does "keep the door open" all the way up unto our actual physical death. That "door" is often kept open through those who are His, who act in loving obedience to His commands, who are the "light and salt" to the world around us.

The difference perhaps is in how you and I view "eternal security." In my case, God lovingly pursues one of His who has gone astray in order to bring them back to the "flock." But IF IT WERE possible to lose one's salvation through choice, there would be NO possibility or restoration or a "second saving" faith. There would be NO point or reason for Christ to pursue a "lost sheep."

Remember, Christ uses each of us to "reach the lost". That includes those who have never accepted Christ as well as those of His who have "gone astray." Such, too, is one of the principles behind church discipline. There would, again, be no reason for church discipline IF a choice could "undo" one's salvation. Oh yes, it certainly can and will have an affect on the "rewards" that we will be given in heaven, but despite the rebellion, "no one can snatch them out of my hand."

I know how tough all of this has been on you. Consider, if it helps, her needs and your ability to help as a "test" of your faithfulness to God, not to your ex-wife. Remember, too, that even the Good Samaritan did NOT take the person home to live with him. He provided for the needed assistance and did what was within his resources to do.

Remember, too, that the father, DID welcome the Prodigal Child home and back into the family when he finally "woke up" and sheepishly came back. Even though the older brother was upset, the father explained the differences in the "rewards" and the fact that both were always his sons, despite how the older brother was emotionally feeling at the time. The rejoicing was due to the Prodigal Child finally realizing that fact himself.

May God continue to bless and guide you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by laura_lee:
<strong> Hi HighFlight,

How are you? How's the job going? Still flying high? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have a friend who is a hobby pilot. He took me up in a small plane from a nearby small airport... on September 10... the day before the infamous September 11 disaster.

It had been years since I had been in a plane. I thoroughly enjoyed the sensation of those metal wings defeating gravity for me. I'm one of those... ain't no grave gonna hold me! types. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So I loved flying above it all... on a more physical plane...

I think you're response is quite balanced and healthy. Each of us "knows", or at least has the ability to "know", the reality of our divorce situation. At least that is true of those of us who are known by God.

I'm not one to believe they are all the same. I have to believe there are some cases where sin pulls a partner, irretrievably, out of a covenant relationship... and, other times, sin pulls a partner retrievably out of a covenant relationship. That, I suppose, depends on the reality of both partner's personal relationship with the Lord - cause the Bible says it is He who holds all things together. If there is a break, what kind of a break was it? Each situation is unique.

I suppose if it were true that God was still in the center of a relationship - that relationship could be restored - though one or both partners had drifted (become incompatible) away for a season.

And IF that was the case, as you say you would both, at some future point, feel very comfortable with making a new choice to restore.

Until then, one would think, it is best to address the situation as it is on face value and to respond appropriately and to, thereby, remain whole.

I wasn't here for the "once saved/always saved" discussion. And I don't like to debate. Discuss, yes. But argue - no. You don't strike me as the arguing type. So, do you believe we are "once saved/always saved"? Which side of the puzzle do you weigh in on?

"Choice" is an interesting point. We choose Christ. Yet it is Christ who chose us first. Our choice of Him, it would appear upon greater level of depth of examination, is a response of the choice He initiated. So choice is relational... and God is the source... when the choice is one of life in Christ. Christ, also, is the source of every right choice we as Christians will make subsequent to salvation... for apart from Him we can do nothing... and we must be "in Him" to do His works. We must abide in Him and He must abide in us for us to do the works He does in and through us... to bear His fruit. We must be in the Spirit to walk in the Spirit... to choose by the Spirit. Choice. An interesting phenomena.

Then there's the "flip side" of once saved/always saved. It would tend to say, in a parallel truth,... the flipped side of the same coin... not saved/never saved. It would say that the reason some appeared to be saved for a season then revealed themselves later not to be saved is not explained by the loss of salvation subsequent to salvation... but the absence of true salvation in the first place. Opens a whole nuther... can of works... worms. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> lol

Anyway, I value your insights. Curious what you might weigh into the phenomena of salvation and choice. Well, I love to ponder the deeper truths... and something tells me you have and do too.

My XH wanted me to "help him" when he became ill after our divorce. I chose not to do so. I didn't feel it was God's will for me personally. He was the kind of person who wanted to ride my coattails into Heaven, and wanted me to take on all of his responsibilities here on earth... so he could self-destruct... and leave me holding the bomb. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No thanks! I dropped the bomb and ran for my life! lol

Laura </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Laura ~ Good to hear from you as always. Here's a link to the thread discussion on Once Saved Always Saved between FH & myself. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=013363;p=1

It never finished due to life's situations -- namely divorce, etc.

Job is going OK. I spent the weekend in Mt Treblant, QB, Canada! Awesome scenery. Up there supporting our company auto racing team with our jet.

Flying IS one of the most spiritual experiences one can have on earth! Agreed!!! I regularly "reach out my hand and touch the face of God" when I'm up in His Heavens.....

On the topic of once saved always saved, succinctly, here's my position:

1) I believe we can be confident in our salvation experience with Jesus. It depends utterly on Him, but we must cooperate with our life choices. God never forces anyone beyond their will. Why?

2) God is love. Love requires freedom. Free Choice is the ultimate freedom! God therefore never forces anyone to "stay married" to Him.

3) Once saved always saved as popularly preached is COMPLETELY unBiblical - an eternally dangerous heresy that harks back to the early NT days with the antinomian heresies that arose from Satan after Jesus returned to Heaven. It is insidiously dangerous in my mind. God warns that it will be a Earth's final days issue that entraps many with the result of their eternal loss!! How ironic is that???!!!

4) Therefore we have this mess: Legitimately Eternally Secure vs Falsely Secure vs Insecure. Satan has clearly trapped many in our world in either false security or insecurity. He doesn't care which trap you're in. Just that you're caught in one.

Praise God that Jesus doesn't allow any honest seeker to be lost in error and sin. The Holy Spirit will guide the willing into all Truth, a Truth that sets us free from sin and heresy and a life apart from God.

Bless you my friend! I'm struggling along day by day but God is SO much better to me than I deserve....And He who has begun a good work in me will finish it until the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

High Flight

Hi HighFlight,

I just wanted to say "hi". Thanks for the response.

Glad you're enjoying your flights. Must be great to be a world traveler.

I'll click on and read your earlier thread when I have a little more time.

Are you open to discuss, or do you just want me to read?

Fly high... and have a great day!!

Laura

P.S. I've been praying for you.

Very interesting thread, HF.

I started reading from the beginning and then went straight to the last page of posts. It seems like the route you took helped. There really are not that much complaining or groaning from the pains of your divorce. I wish I could say the same thing.

How is everything now? Do you still speak to your wife, FH? How is your wife spiritually? It seems as though with you being as spiritual as you are she would have reverted to being mostly nonspiritual or at least having a from of godliness but denying it. Is that the case with you? Or wait. Did your wife have an A?

What has been most helpful with you during these past months? I filed a couple of months ago after dealing with it for a year. Wife moved out 7/30/03 and stopped going to church with us and cut all communications with everyone we know. I think she did that for a number of reasons but one would be she was embarrassed by her own actions (we have two children). Deep down I think my wife is in a very difficult place, but she knows I did everything and waited patiently. Like you said, she has her freedom of choice and God will not take that away from her. But I do believe that even though God gives us the freedom to choose, He will place us in situations where we will ultimately choose right (if it's in us).

In other words, He will allow disaster, pain, death to bring us to a point where we can see clearly and then choose Him, or home or whatever. Case in point, the prodigal. It took him eating with pigs before he made that decision. The king of Babylon. Took him eating grass out in the fields for seven years to bring him to his senses. Somewhere it says that he will allow all of these things to come to us to change us, or for us to choose to change, but still, we have the choice. If we still, after all of that, choose to stay in our way, then he cuts us off. One verse says He himself turns and fights against us.

So, I say al of that just to make the point that we have a choice, but sometimes we must wait to allow God to place us or the other person in a place where they see things clearly in order to make the right choice. Hmmmm. Makes me think I should have waited before I filed. But no. I gave her a year and still, this is the consequence of her refusing to end the affair. This may be the elixir that brings her to her senses. God may now be able to allow her to fall, badly, so she can see where she went wrong and become a better person. The door is always open. I'll work on myself in the meanwhile.

High Flight---I have to agree with you below

It is not appropriate for me to continue as her support net to use at her convenience and whim. I can pray for her & help her as I would any other person, but not as a wife.

I am sort of struggling with the same thing. Since my WH has had one difficulty after another, I have discovered from reading Women Who Love Too Much that I can actually get high on helping my H. When it seems he needs me, I can abandon myself and what is best for me to rescue him. I have discovered that helping the helpless can give me such an adrenaline rush. He is addicted to alcohol and I have been addicted to him and his problems. I can loose site of myself when I am "helping" unhealthily.

I have helped him this past couple of weeks. I know now that my helping him is what God would want me to do. I have discovered that I cannot proceed to help him and think that it will change him. He has no desire to change and my helping, rescuing, caretaking etc will not have that effect on him. I am helping him only cause there are a few things he cannot do. I also do not want to get in God's way of working in WH's life...

Hope things are doing ok with you. Been praying for you cause I know this kind of transition is terribly painful.

TW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4) Therefore we have this mess: Legitimately Eternally Secure vs Falsely Secure vs Insecure. Satan has clearly trapped many in our world in either false security or insecurity. He doesn't care which trap you're in. Just that you're caught in one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">High Flight - hmmmm..., perhaps we are not so far apart on the "once saved, always saved" issue as it seemed. This sounds much more like another phrasing of the Parable of the Soils. The "4th Soil" being those to whom the appellation "once saved, always saved" would apply.

God bless you and continue to show His love to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deadtoitall:
<strong> Very interesting thread, HF.

I started reading from the beginning and then went straight to the last page of posts. It seems like the route you took helped. There really are not that much complaining or groaning from the pains of your divorce. I wish I could say the same thing.

How is everything now? Do you still speak to your wife, FH? How is your wife spiritually? It seems as though with you being as spiritual as you are she would have reverted to being mostly nonspiritual or at least having a from of godliness but denying it. Is that the case with you? Or wait. Did your wife have an A?

What has been most helpful with you during these past months? I filed a couple of months ago after dealing with it for a year. Wife moved out 7/30/03 and stopped going to church with us and cut all communications with everyone we know. I think she did that for a number of reasons but one would be she was embarrassed by her own actions (we have two children). Deep down I think my wife is in a very difficult place, but she knows I did everything and waited patiently. Like you said, she has her freedom of choice and God will not take that away from her. But I do believe that even though God gives us the freedom to choose, He will place us in situations where we will ultimately choose right (if it's in us).

In other words, He will allow disaster, pain, death to bring us to a point where we can see clearly and then choose Him, or home or whatever. Case in point, the prodigal. It took him eating with pigs before he made that decision. The king of Babylon. Took him eating grass out in the fields for seven years to bring him to his senses. Somewhere it says that he will allow all of these things to come to us to change us, or for us to choose to change, but still, we have the choice. If we still, after all of that, choose to stay in our way, then he cuts us off. One verse says He himself turns and fights against us.

So, I say al of that just to make the point that we have a choice, but sometimes we must wait to allow God to place us or the other person in a place where they see things clearly in order to make the right choice. Hmmmm. Makes me think I should have waited before I filed. But no. I gave her a year and still, this is the consequence of her refusing to end the affair. This may be the elixir that brings her to her senses. God may now be able to allow her to fall, badly, so she can see where she went wrong and become a better person. The door is always open. I'll work on myself in the meanwhile. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks to EVERYONE for their writings. I'm helped by each one of you...especially when I read these sort of words --> "I'm praying for you". God answers prayers!!!

TO answer you deadtoitall:

* My ExW is pretty dead spiritually. No more church. No more devotions. Partying on the beach in FL as I write this.

* She's following the trajectory of the prodigal son to a near T. Hopefully, she will also one day wake up from the pig slop she's now eating. Course still yet, she's wallowing in the party atmosphere cause the $$$ & good looks haven't run out yet.

* Sounds to me like your WW & my WW are fraternal twins...the fraternity being the Enemy's playground primarily.

* Yes, my WW had an affair in 1999. VERY PAINFUL to me.

* Agreed, God will do all in His power to save our wives. Place them in difficult circumstances, etc. If there's a crack of hope they will make a choice for Him, He will pursue them. But even if there's not a chance, He will still offer them ample opportunity. That is only love & fairness, which our God is!

Meanwhile, like you, I must move on and allow God to complete His sanctifying work in me. That is our task at hand now.

God be near you my brother!

High Flight

Hi HighFlight, how are things going? how are you doing with the boundaries and the XW?

I am still doing fairly well and am astonished at how much freer I feel. I finished reading Women Who Love Too Much and it helped me see the reality of things I only suspected. I feel I am turning a corner in my struggles and my WH does not seem to have such a huge pull on me any longer. Letting go seems possible and it is happening in a way I thought would never be something I could do (and all the time still having some contact with WH). If he has a problem, it is his problem. He is able to find his solutions. Matter of fact, he is capable of finding his own way to live. I could not say this a month ago-------AT ALL. I could not separate myself from his need for help and my ability to fix. Even though I still believe he makes poor choices, they are all his choices and don't effect me anymore.

I did check out the book, Crazy Time but it was not something I could relate to well. It just seemed to confuse me. When looking at divorce, I need to have a more biblical based format. That book seemed to embrace a very different moral structure then I was comfortable with but thanks for the suggestion.

Gonna be hanging out in NYC this weekend with my cousin so I am looking forward to some adventure and fun in the city.

TW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tossedwave:
<strong> Hi HighFlight, how are things going? how are you doing with the boundaries and the XW?

I am still doing fairly well and am astonished at how much freer I feel. I finished reading Women Who Love Too Much and it helped me see the reality of things I only suspected. I feel I am turning a corner in my struggles and my WH does not seem to have such a huge pull on me any longer. Letting go seems possible and it is happening in a way I thought would never be something I could do (and all the time still having some contact with WH). If he has a problem, it is his problem. He is able to find his solutions. Matter of fact, he is capable of finding his own way to live. I could not say this a month ago-------AT ALL. I could not separate myself from his need for help and my ability to fix. Even though I still believe he makes poor choices, they are all his choices and don't effect me anymore.

I did check out the book, Crazy Time but it was not something I could relate to well. It just seemed to confuse me. When looking at divorce, I need to have a more biblical based format. That book seemed to embrace a very different moral structure then I was comfortable with but thanks for the suggestion.

Gonna be hanging out in NYC this weekend with my cousin so I am looking forward to some adventure and fun in the city.

TW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TW

VERY glad you're making progress in the Lord. Indeed, Jesus is helping you to let go of something that is toxic to your soul. He wants us to "prosper and be in good health, just as our soul prospers".

Boundaries are God-given wellness points! To trespass them virtually guarantees trouble of the worst sort!

I'm having my good days and my bad days with my Ex. I've asked her to think in terms of what's healthy for us. I haven't heard back.

Agreed!! Crazy Times is not for everyone. I also had to selectively skip through parts of it, due to it's non-Christian morality positions. However, what I did gain from it was rich insight into why folks "do up the marriage deadlock deals" we all do. For me, if I can see how something got put together badly, then I can figure out how to avoid repeating it, and also how to dissassemble and repair it.

That's what Crazy Times did for me. It also helped to further innoculate me against ever being willing to start up another relationship with a non-believer. There's some truly perverted, distorted thinking out there. That book has some of it for sure. And many MANY people subscribe to the lifestyles described in it.

Clearly, the book's author had no room for God in the equation. But I just plugged Him in as I read it, and came away with good info.

Also, I read it alongside a truly wonderful book about setting up a Christian Home. That has been a long-standing habit of mine. I don't read something with "garbage" in it without reading something known to be TRUE & GOOD alongside it to balance it out.

Blessings!
High Flight

Hey TW,

When I prayed for you... there was such incredible mega power... I can't describe it adequately. No way was that "me" praying. That was God moving as I prayed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just last night I was so wondering how things were going for you. Cause the "word" I received was that the wind that has been hammering you was being stopped... and would continue to be stopped. Didn't want to "startle" you or anything... but I seriously do believe angels, very large angels, were dispatched to your situation.

Glad to hear they're workin'!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

Glad to hear that things are going so much better for you. I really do care and am continuing to pray and to think about you.

We can't do these things in our own strength. We need the heavenly host... the Lord... to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves... win!... win big!... against that ole fog. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Highflight, been praying for you as well. Have not "heard" or "received" anything specific.

One of these days I will tell you the benefit of what knowing I was not saved by an independent, autonomous act of human will has benefitted my relationship with God and others. "We are not saved by the human will, or the will of the flesh... but by God." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Some people one can talk to in spiritual language... like you guys I think I can...

and others... just simple talk. But it always helps when we truly do want to see people pulled out of the pits of "depression".

Dirty devil! Let 'em go! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Talk to you later,


God bless,

Laura

OK...

Here's my struggle.

My former marriage was just unpleasant. Very, increasingly, end result... total loss.

Well, marriage doesn't sound appealing to me. I "tie it in" emotionally to my previous experience.

I'm not like a person who has never been married and is open to the possibility of it being "great!".

Someone has to fight a real uphill battle to convince me that being close to someone is worth the inherent risk it "means" to me... based on my previous experience.

When is this going to change?

When will "I" change?

Everyone, general statement I know... but I hear it often, says that I would be such a great person to be with, etc., etc.

But marriage is not great to me... so I'm not all that attracted to the idea... which means I certainly, as the result, do NOT feel all that attracted to those who are attracted to me.

Well, when is this going to change?

When will "I" "change"?

Laura

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by laura_lee:
<strong> OK...

Here's my struggle.

My former marriage was just unpleasant. Very, increasingly, end result... total loss.

Well, marriage doesn't sound appealing to me. I "tie it in" emotionally to my previous experience.

I'm not like a person who has never been married and is open to the possibility of it being "great!".

Someone has to fight a real uphill battle to convince me that being close to someone is worth the inherent risk it "means" to me... based on my previous experience.

When is this going to change?

When will "I" change?

Everyone, general statement I know... but I hear it often, says that I would be such a great person to be with, etc., etc.

But marriage is not great to me... so I'm not all that attracted to the idea... which means I certainly, as the result, do NOT feel all that attracted to those who are attracted to me.

Well, when is this going to change?

When will "I" "change"?

Laura </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL I "hear" your pain. It's there in all of us I think. And there's FEAR!!! Fear of making another marriage mistake. FEAR of being rejected yet once again. FEAR of being abandoned by the one we've chosen to give ourselves to in love.

I have it too...in spades. But somehow, God doesn't want us held captive by our fears.

I agree with you...this will change...when you are changed inside by our loving Lord! Same is true for me.

I think this segment of time in our lives is also a built-in protection time. Protection against getting hooked up with the wrong folks. Protection against making ill-advised impulse "buys" of the wrong persons.

God IS good!!!

Praying for you too,
High Flight

Hi Highflight,

Thanks for your comments. I believed you'd have wise words for me... and, as usual, you didn't let me down.

See ya,

Laura

Laura---thanks for praying. Things have definitely changed for me. The one thing I have been so excited about lately is that all of us want to be known and loved intimately. Well--I can't stop rejoicing in being known by God. He knows the deepest things about each of us. That is AWESOME. We long for another person to be there for us like God but no other human can be as intimate as God. The reason I say that is because God spoke so specifically to me through the book, Women Who Love Too Much. He knew me and my struggle far better than I knew myself.

HF and Laura, I, too, as a BS fear and question the stability of marriage. But I do see others who have good marriages. They don't have storybook marriages but their lives are full of working together, planning together and being there for each other long term. My son and his wife have a working marriage and I love to observe their interaction and family life. I never had a working marriage. It was totally one-sided......me trying to love the addict into becoming a better marriage partner. It was my obsession which eventually almost destroyed me. From reading WWLTM, I have seen some major things about myself that have contributed to the unhealthiness of my former marriage. I can no longer look for a partner that needs "help", and special love to make him whole. I truly feel so much more capable of not "looking for love in all the wrong places".

This getting to know ourselves is pretty neat.

TW

Hey tw and HighFlight,

I just want to thank you guys!! One puts a thousand to flight... 2 put 10 thousand to flight... and, I'm sure, 3 put 100 thousand to flight.

There's incredible power in unity... joint prayers for one another... and group support.

Yes, tw, it's about intimacy with the Lord.

Well, HighFlight, I pondered your words. While I can pray with mega-"authority" (we all can when we don't "WAVER") based on grace and faith in God's love for me and His children, in this area of my life... I, admittedly, have wavered due to my own life experience.

Well, last night I was praying (I love to pray), and I got bold about it with the Lord. I was like, "God, you need to move here. You need to keep your Word, fulfill your promises, and you need to level the devil and get him out of my way!! I need you to get this job DONE!! I don't want anymore games about it. No playing games!! GET THIS JOB DONE AND FINISH THE WORK IN ME!!

Sounds a little "bossy", huh? Well, people tell me I pray like thunder. All hell trembles when I pray. I'm not really "bossing" God around... I'm just being bold and getting the "waver" out of me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So, anyway, I get done praying... and, boy oh boy, I feel the power of it in my inner being. It hit my "pain pocket". Kind of like how sound waves or something would hit a kidney stone and shatter and burst it and crush it and dissipate it and relieve one of the problem.

So I feel the effect of the prayer hitting the "pain pocket"... like sound waves, or laser, or whatever they do to demolish kidney stones or something.

THEN, shortly afterwards, the pain is mostly gone... and this is what rang on the inside of my spirit, "There is nothing to fear."

All fear is gone! I'm FREE!!

Thanks, HighFlight, especially, for focussing my prayers!!

God bless,

Laura