My kids don't believe they are half their father or half their mother - that is ridiculous. I never blamed myself for my parents' faults, and my kids do not blame themselves for mine or their father's. The "parental alienation" malarky is just something primarily used by WS's who want to blame someone else for the fact that their kids have rejected them due to their betrayal of the entire family. You can't alienate someone from a parent who actually is around to demonstrate that whatever the kids may be told is untrue - the fastest way to ensure that kids will defend their parent is to criticize him or her.

Our younger 4 kids see their father - not nearly as often as they have asked him to see them, but he has refused. He has called them exactly once in 5 years just to talk - right after he left, the counselor told him to call them daily. He said they didn't have much to say, so he never called them again unless it was to say he something like when he would be arriving. I encouraged them to email him early on, but it was like pulling teeth, and after awhile I realized it was pointless. They almost never call him, even on those occasions when they wanted him to bring something they had left behind.

The older 2 kids have had little or nothing to do with him since he left. They were adults/nearly adults at the time. Children take betrayal personally - one of my kids even said, "He knew how I (our daughter) felt about adultery."

Kids are not little blank slates with no minds of their own. To state otherwise is highly disrespectful of them. Children can make up their own minds. They know whether or not their NCP wants to have a close relationship with them.

My kids have set bedtimes. One seems to run over in getting ready. I moved it earlier to combat that. I am teaching them by example. I am home when I say I will be, I do what I say I will. They on the other hand are still fighting being responsible with their chores. It's all part of being kids, but they will get it. I help them with their projects, homework and studies. I take them places and do things. They are upset that their mom tries to make things difficult. Mom thinks I dont want them to call or anything because to quote my youngest daughter..." I dont want to get my head ripped off". I dont listen in on their conversations, or grill them about anything. if They want to tell me, that's fine. I dont ask. As far as the thing with the glasses.... I dont let my kids wear shirts that with their arms up show torso. I dont let them wear tight jeans or ones that drag the ground with their underwear showing. They see kids like that and laugh and usually bring it to my attention. The glasses, My stbxw wear very large lenses. Her theory is that she isnt looking through small glass. They are so big that she cant see the frames. They are so 70's. that is fine for her. In today's age, kids dont want huge spectacles. They want more refined smart looking, fashionable eyewear. Who cares. They are the ones who have to look in the mirror at themselves. They are the ones who will feel good or bad behind them. I think at 12 years old, kids should be allowed to make some decisions within reason. My wife, picked out my clothes. I was capable, but it was her right. Ok, I know it sounds petty, but couple it with smoking dope all the time, finding more time to visit pot smoking friends, not doing what you say you will, passing off your responsibilities to everyone else, then making everyone feel like they are worthless and scared of her made even the slightest things big. She left us a long time ago. She chose what she wanted to do and we were welcome to tag along. We didnt get to decide things and if we did, they didnt come true because she would get mad, and cancel or find another reason to later overule the decision that we made and she agreed to.

Nellie:
"My kids don't believe they are half their father or half their mother - that is ridiculous." In your opinion - in mine and other adult children of divorce that I talked to who indicated their one parent bashed the other -- that is exactly how they felt.

"The "parental alienation" malarky is just something primarily used by WS's who want to blame someone else for the fact that their kids have rejected them due to their betrayal of the entire family." In your opinion. Actually in my experience it is true. I am around and demonstrate to my kids the total opposite of what the ex says about me. But unfortunately, there are some "grey" areas. I for one NEVER cheated on my spouse, NEVER strayed, was true to my marriage. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the fastest way to ensure that kids will defend their parent is to criticize him or her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk to any cop who responds to domestic violence. They'll tell you that the people who are defending the abusive one usually DO come to their defence.

Seems to me that when a person responds so vehemently to a post might have some underlying issues that they have to deal with or have dealt with. Parental alienation is a very touch subject and one that you Nellie have continually jumped on. Perhaps educating yourself about it and seeking further information on it might help clear that up for you. Just a thought.

Hired Help:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think at 12 years old, kids should be allowed to make some decisions within reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What your "reason" is as opposed to what your wife's is, is obviously very different. Perhaps when it comes to issues of fashion and wanting the kids to be more acceptable in your eyes would including having a family outing when it comes to choosing something like eyeglasses.

I read a lot of hurt in your posts -- and that's normal. You indicate that your wife "picked out my clothes". The both of you already established a pattern that was acceptable in a marriage, but now it's not. With that comes some growing pains. You have to be creative in solutions to help ease you through "what was" to "what is". The kids fashion choices is one of those things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> not doing what you say you will, passing off your responsibilities to everyone else, then making everyone feel like they are worthless and scared of her made even the slightest things big </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... the "pot smoking" is HER stuff and not yours. But here again is a person who is NOT taking responsibility for herself or her own actions. You feel that she is making everyone feel worthless. Thing is, only YOU can feel that way. You allow her actions to directly affect you. Boundaries are trampled on, you allow her to make slightest things big and then blame it all on HER. You have the power to change that. YOU have the power to turn this around to a win win situation for you and the kids. Counselling again comes into play here -- they will teach you to take responsibility for your OWN stuff and let HER deal with the crap pile she's building for herself. Learning new skills takes time. Is she rotten? Sure...she's not making it easy. Is she wrong? Perhaps...but again it's HER stuff. Is she hurting other people? Yes, with her actions...but you do have the means to stop that. She may continue for the rest of her life down this rotten path -- but it's HER life. You can't MAKE her do anything. She's the one ultimately responsible for her actions.

Hired Help -- it sounds like you are doing the right things. You are doing your best to be a good parent. Being an excellent parent is the ability to admit when you are wrong and to change things that don't work. It's ok to tell the kids that you did something wrong and that you want to make things better. Sitting down with them and telling them your concerns about the pot smoking etc. is ok. Telling them their mother is BAD is not a good thing, it's the choices she is making that are bad. Rainbows, the class through the local churches, help the kids through issues like this. It's not all Bible-thumping and "Praise Me!" kinda stuff. It's getting down to the nuts and bolts of the hurt, the pain and the changes that everyone goes through in divorce.

You'll do fine. Right now, you are hurt and angry and wanting it just all to go away. Hey, we were all in that place. I remember feeling that raw and that pissed at my ex (very same, but opposite sex). It took a long time to get to a peaceful place and was damn hard work. I had a child that didn't even want to talk to me because of all the lies her father told her. Take him out of the picture (she moved out of his house, into her own) and all of a sudden the fog was lifted. Parental alienation is very much like a fog -- hard to see the truth through all the lies or even wishful thinking.

If it wasn't for some wonderful people in here who helped me step by step (N...yer a doll! thank you!), I would have never made it. I still have bumps now and again with different kid issues. I was more apt to listen to sage advice given by the posters who really experienced the things (for me....my ex thought that having our 15 year olds tongue pierced was a brilliant idea!). Email me if you want. I'd be more than happy to talk off the posts. cgyvacationgirl@hotmail.com

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They'll tell you that the people who are defending the abusive one usually DO come to their defence.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, Elan, you are agreeing with me? Kids may think that their parents (or siblings) are jerks, but let anyone else - the other parent, someone outside the family, the police - criticize them and the kids will jump to their defense. Adults do the same thing - as a matter of fact, even if I think my H is a jerk, I don't like it when my sister or someone on this message board calls him one. It is perfectly normal behavior, and flies in the face of "parental alienation" theory. If one parent were to unjustly criticize the other, the only parent the kids would become alienated from would be the criticizer.

I had done some research on this topic previously, but thank you for suggesting that I do more. What I found is very interesting and downright scary. Before jumping on the "parental alienation syndrome," bandwagon, it might be a good idea to read one of numerous articles debunking this theory, such as the one that appeared in the journal "Child and Family Law Quarterly" in 2002, at:

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/bruch-expanded.pdf

Richard Gardner, who originally came up with this supposed and scientifically unsupported "syndrome," in the context of sexual abuse allegations, has also made a number of horrifying statements related to pedophilia, which apparently he believes is normal. Some of these statements are quoted at the bottom of the page at this link:

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/lizonpas.htm

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>