ADV

What do you care what we think of you?

Here are the books:

DSM-IV - desk reference for psychiatrists and psychologists.

Adult Children of Alcoholics by Claudia Black

and a myriad of other books on chronic rescuing behavior, co-dependency, and control issues.

But that's if you really only want to get help. Using these books against your mother will only further validate what you already know and also what we already know - she's an abused woman and an abuser in her own way.

STOP rescuing your father. He's a tough guy. I'm sure he can handle anything your mother dishes out and deliver it back in spades. We've all witnessed it before.

STOP trying to change your mother. You can't - it's not your job. Do you think you're more powerful than God? Get the u-no-what out of His way!! Butt out of your mother's life and let her make her own mistakes!

there are a myriad of books on co-dependency.

But the best diagnosis of your condition would be to go to a counselor with your mom's posts and YOUR posts on a divorced/divorcing board to set people you don't even know straight about your mother's continued lack of accountability according to your standards and ask them if your behavior is healthy!! If my guess is correct, you'll dodge that little piece of self-reflection though and just get another affirmation that your mother is mentally ill. We know that. You're young enough you don't have to step into that pile. But you are stepping into it - eagerly, madly stomping!

Stop rescuing your father. Stop trying to save your reputation to a bunch of people you don't even know and shouldn't even care what they think!

a_diff_view,

I never say nor think your mom is right for many things... I say (and think) you are wrong!

Your dad TOO contributed to your state of mind (I'm curious though why you don't live with your dad...) and it's sad... you want to explain to a bunch of unknown people some things, yet you don't listen what they say to you, their very friendly and caring words, advice...

Hope you getting away will give you some peace and, moreover, you will live your own life... but please consider some counseling for yourself...

I won't reply again... it might hurt some (or all) of you... all it's left to say is - get your life in your hands and don't repeat mistakes of BOTH of your parents...

Best wishes for your mom, siblings and you!

I don't want this to be he/she said thingy. This has to be quick. D did tell me that she told her brothers. D and I went to my youngest son (18) when he got home from school and he did tell his sister that there was nothing said to him. So, that is the truth. I did not go into the ow after talking to my youngest son, why would I? As for the taxes, this D had her brother (oldest son) go on the internet and search for these issues on her post. Involving him more and for what? To prove what? I feel I know where this came from! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And I understand the triangle of D, ex, me. I did not once mention the taxes to the D. There is no need to. So I was so surprised when she mentioned it to me. Cause she is not to be involved in our personal situations, as well as the rest of the kids. But all the kids are involved now, and where did this come from? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> She has her life, and ex has his life and I have my life. I don't want her involved, as well as the other 3 children. But now they are involved and h*ll has broken lose! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> It is not the kids situation to deal with, it is ex and I. So where did this come from? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Also, there was no mention of that she went into my personal file, which I found out, cause she didn't place the divorce decree papers in the file slot I had made for the papers. She admitted to going into my file, which there is nothing there for her. And I told her that this file is not hers. Which she stated that she has the right. WRONG! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I feel so so upset by her seeing it this way.

Also, the situation of the holidays. I realize that the kids are moving away, and it hurts inside. Plus we are no longer a family. I cried, and she doesn't realize why. And won't until you are a mother. Won't go into that anymore.

Yes, I was moving along, because of the NO CONTACT and nothing else. You all stated to me to do this NC for months and months, as well as counseling told me. I did it and it will continue for a very long time now.

I did talk to counseling today, have an appt. every friday. And I did tell the counselor that I wrote a letter to my daughter. I laid it on the D pillow last night. She was not truthful about telling my youngest son. Hey we all make mistakes. There seems to be very little respect. Also, the issue of her cats. She brought her cats with her when she moved back here. The agreement was she would clean the kitty boxes (2) at least every other day. I cleaned them last night, and they were filthy. She had another cat here and I have a old, slowing down cat. So we have 4 cats and 2 boxes. This has been a problem since she moved back. I have asked nicely, I have gotten stern, and still it is not done on a regular basis.

I did this last night I put a letter on her pillow written by me. I feel this is the cause of her posting. I feel that this D needs to get out on her own. The counselor said this was a good idea the letter. I told the counselor that the D needed to leave by the end of April. Or that there needs to be changes, respect, regular chores, more physical things done here, cats chores, doing her part. She pays me nothing to live here. And I am not making it on Alimony alone, with no food stamps. She was to make 2 dinners a week. That is not happening, and a short arm cast with fingers exposed, is not an acceptable excuse. The respect is the issue. If she is not happy, then she knows what she should do. I do pay all the bills here.

I realize where a lot of this is coming from! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I do not tell my kids much at all, that I do involving the ex. Cause it is not their problem. But I do feel that ex has involved the oldest daughter WAY too much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> She needs to live her life, she needs to be on her own. Find the love of her life, she is a smart, articulate, beautiful woman, with great aspirations. I do give her credit, and hope that she succeeds. I do hope that her business goes well. If I am failing and lose everything, and not able to make it, not only will I not beable to provide a roof over her head, then she will be out on the street as well as I. But she will live with dad. She has stated to me, that she will live with her dad. And I hope it works out well for their little group.

As far as ex paying anything here. The oldest son and I talked. He realizes that I am struggling and will have to sell this house as soon as I can. I am hoping to sell it next year. To get more money for the house. New subdivision being built all around me. And I will rent rooms this fall to help pay the bills. Not a problem with me. Always someone at church needing a temporary place of residence.

So have to go. If you all think that I should just leave again for awhile. Tell me, and I will. Wasn't a problem last time and won't be this time. I care and love this daughter. I love all my kids, and would give them any part of my body to ease their pain and suffering. But there are some things that I am not going to succumb to. And that is disrespect.

Yes, all the kids live here. The oldest son got an apartment with his sister. But he only lived there for a few weeks. His sister only lives there during the week. She is here on weekends, and does her laundry, and all the necessities of a human being. Which is fine. She has a great opportunity for a great job. And I know she will do well. She has strived to be a Aerospace engineer, and she landed an internship job in California. She will come back home after the internship. Work on her masters. And I knew about this position the night she was told. All the kids drivers licenses are my address.

I only speak the truth. I hate this divorce as well as what is happening to the kids.

Off to church. Want me off, I will stay off, if you all feel it is necessary.

Hi diff view,

First, I want you to know that I realize that we all relay "what happened" from our own point of view, and what we can see/not see at that time is a result of our own life experience up to that point, especially our own personal limitations and/or inexperience. I view all posts that way--including my own. I want you to know that I don't assume that anything is EXACTLY as it is related; I do assume that anything anyone posts is from the standpoint of how it looks and feels to THEM. I don't assume that what you related of "what happened" is EXACTLY as it occurred, but I believe that what you said happened is from the standpoint of how it looked and felt to you. If this was your thread and you were looking for advice, support and/or encouragement in dealing with the situation, I would do so from YOUR viewpoint and where YOU were at at that time.

You said:
"Yeah! Well, get this. Because things just did not make sense; later on I pulled out the divorce decree and went to that section. It said MINOR children, yes minor children. Nothing about adult children. She has NO judge’s orders to claim adult children on her taxes. She flat out LIED to you guys and you believed it. And, if you don’t want to believe me, I will scan that page, put it into PDF format and upload it to one of my servers, so you can read it. I will address this tax thing further down, because LovingBoundaries is way out in left field. Mostly due to lack of information and believing my mom’s tripe."

I don't believe that Faith4me lied. She might be mistaken about what the judge's order is, but I don't believe she lied even if it turns out that she is mistaken in what she understood to be what the judge ordered. And even if I'm way out in left field advising Faith4me to comply with the judge's order until the day the judge changes that order, I don't view what Faith4me says as "tripe" just as I don't view what you say as "tripe"--it's just how you each see your situations from your own points of view at that time according to where you are each at in your personal development.

You said (from your viewpoint) that Faith4me lied about you saying that you and your dad would talk to her, and then called it "covering her tracks" when she posted your clarification of what you said. I don't view this as a lie or covering her tracks--I view it as her posting your clarification in the same public forum that she posted what she understood you to say.

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about here:
Now for the taxes. The reason I bring this tax stuff up, is because it goes to show how my mother will not respect or talk to her family. She just does as she pleases without talking to us. To my brother’s credit, he stepped up to the plate and sat down with my mom and discussed this tax issue. To my mother’s credit she listened and there was some positive outcome from this.

LovingBoundaries quickly attacked this step forward that my mother took."

diff view, what step forward are you talking about and when/how did I attack it? If I did, I certainly want to know because I would not want to attack ANY STEP FORWARD that Faith4me makes.

This was the whole paragraph you wrote:
" LovingBoundaries quickly attacked this step forward that my mother took. LovingBoundaries, my mom cannot just do what the heck she pleases and ignore the people involved with her life. She needs to cooperate, in this case, because she was wrong, not just morally, but legally as well. LovingBoundaries, you have nothing helpful to say and I’d appreciate it if you would butt out of our lives."

I'm sorry that nothing I say to Faith4me is helpful to you, and if this was your thread I would not post if you requested that of me. This is Faith4me's thread and she has not requested that of me--although a long while ago there were times I asked her if she thought it was better if I didn't post to her. It was her thread and her decision. If you prefer that I don't post to you on your threads, just let me know and I won't. Again, I'm sorry that what Faith4me says is helpful to her is not helpful to you--but I believe that KaylaAndy's posts could be extremely helpful to you and your future. Maybe you could skip reading my posts when you are reading Faith4me's thread?

As far as the tax info you posted, if you are saying that the judge ordered something that was against IRS regulations then I believe that's a matter to be taken up with the judge and not the ex-spouse. The ex-spouse is not responsible for correcting a judge's mistake, the judge is responsible for that.

Take care diff view

Hi Faith4me,

I see you posted but--like quite a few new posts on this thread--I don't have time to read it now. This thread is getting very active, and since I think there are many others who can help and support you much better than I can I might bow out of posting but will try to keep up with reading your thread. If I do that, I'll post a "hi" every so often.

Take care Faith4me

This thread seems like it would be more beneficial to my D. I feel that she needs her space, therefore, I am going to leave this thread and start another thread later.

There are many issues here with the whole family dynamics. I do wish for help, as you all can see that this family is in a CRISIS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> of needing PROFESSIONAL counseling. Using the kids is not good for their minds. And this issue of the taxes of 2003 seems to have been stirred by the ex. I do feel that the ex should of left the oldest daughter alone, who was the first to hear about it from her dad and the ex and I should of talked this through. The triangle started and now severe damage has been done. All the kids are involved, which is not healthy, and has done severe emotional damage.

When the time seems appropriate, I will post a new thread. Right now, I am going to devote some of my time this weekend, to praising Jesus. Service tonight was very emotional. Three skits were played on the crucifixion of Jesus and Peter the betrayer. Makes you wonder how we survive, with all the sins that we commit each year.

Please help my D, for I love her and this is her space now. Thank you and God Bless!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is not the kids situation to deal with, it is ex and I </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Faith, IMO you are wrong on this point, it is the kids business if you have claimed them and they could of/should of claimed themselves. This situation is very much their business. I had one son that we could claim this year as he was a student half the year. I figured his and our taxes two ways, he claiming himself and us claiming him. Of course, it was more beneficial for us to claim him. BUT, we paid him the difference in what he would of gotten back if he had claimed 1 dependent on his taxes instead of 0. We thoroughly discussed this with him BEFORE we filed anyone's taxes. I also agree with ADV on this, you don't want the IRS resolving it. It just isn't any fun dealing with them (so I have heard).

GASP, my 21 and almost 23 year old live with us, and I am very happy to have them here indefinitely. In fact, I think it is foolish for them to pay rent and utilities when they can be saving their money. My oldest is now saving and looking for a piece of land to buy. I personally think that is smart, and I love having them here. I still provide their meals, wash their clothes, etc. My husband and I both like having them here.

ADV - I understand what you were hoping to accomplish by coming here. I believe you were seeing that the advice your mother is getting is adding to her destruction and not helping her to get beyond all this. But your giving a piece of the dynamics involved is not working and it is probably best that you give up. I have seen it so many times on the board where someone is here for validation only and is getting that validation, but it sure isn't helping them. I think many times that the well intentioned posters forget that they only get one side of the story, and not all of that one side. I want to say that I am sorry for her, but IMHO the problems in your household are not the result of an affair. The affair was the culmination of a lifetime of dysfunction.

I can understand your mission because I have the same sense and definition of family as you, but sometimes you just have to walk away from them in order to be healthy and happy yourself. I believe that your mother in no way wants this, but her actions are driving in that direction. After the kind of life you have had, you deserve to choose what is best for you. Of course, I am one to talk. I see and talk to both my parents and my siblings (sister, and two brothers) most every day.

Best wishes in developing a family relationship that is healthy for all.

Be content -The taxes my son and I went through. It is helpful for my taxes to claim my youngest son (which I have custody of), and at least one other. They all do live under my roof. Youngest daughter parttime in an apartment. I did ask her if she was going to do her own taxes, but she didn't work this past year and she said no. To claim herself would hurt her. She is a full time student in Aerospace engineering and graduating this spring. And the thing is, the oldest D is 25. The taxes do not affect the oldest D at all. Except for what ex would get for claiming one, and that would give him more money. For she is too old to be claimed by either of us. The ex puts this daughter in the middle. Where she should of been left alone. She should be working on her business fulltime. Then the 25 year old gets the rest of the kids involved. Ex did wrong in involving this daughter, and did cause some major disagreements.

Yes to have them all live here is wonderful. What has happened which was explained to me, is the triangle. Oldest daughter does whatever her dad says. Dad rules the triangle. He pays all her bills and she lives here. She is trying to get a business going. There are those who are getting a business going and need to get a side job too while the business is building. Oldst daughter is entrenched in her fathers affairs. Which the ex should let this D live her own life. This was explained to me, not realizing the dynamics of what is happening.

I admit, that I have done wrong in the marriage. I did not give my ex admiration quite a bit of the time. I did conversation, for I love conversation. Sex, was not high on my list, and I know I failed in that part for the ex and probably some more. The marriage, I was treated as a child not a wife many times. This I let happen. Which was wrong on my part. I did not stand up for myself, and show him that I was a valuable, loving woman. I was his support system in many ways and for getting his own business going, and he knows that. If it wasn't for me, his business would of not thrived. The children, I did my best, and as many will say, children look at their parents and blame. I don't look at my mother and blame. I am looking at my mother with love, and looking at myself and bettering myself. As far as the taxes, I did nothing wrong. Except the ex wants to claim one young adult on his taxes, to help him. I try not to involve my adult children in my personal affairs, they need to get their life together after the explosion. They have such great opportunitites, and they all are brilliant young adults. To involve the adult children in personal affairs causes more mental harm, and creates the entanglement of diharmony, anger and resentment. Which has happened here. I didn't understand the triangle until it was presented to me in counseling.

With the no contact, things are much better. I have my own life to get on with. I have many friends for a support group. And I have my church family.

I did post to you, as you being the last poster. Just to clarify things. My oldest daughter has her valid points too. We all see things from a different perspective. She needs to get her life together, and live her life with happiness and love. One day, she may find the man that will be the love of her eyes. I hope she does. For she is a very thoughtful, caring, intelligent, beautiful woman with great artisit abilities. She is a woman that has high dreams and I hope that she achieves some of her dreams if not all of them. I would like to help her more, but financially I am unable to. Things are very hard right now, with my being on medical. I do help by giving her a roof and food and all the other things with living under this roof. All I would like is respect, and to keep the triangle away from her. Let her be her own self, and let her live her life. I love her and do care about her very much.

<small>[ April 10, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Faith4me ]</small>

Faith- Congratulations, the first step in moving on is to admit your own mistakes in the marriage. I think if I were you next year before I filed I would talk to your kids about it. YOu could have saved alot of heart ache if you had done that.

Sad situation.

There was communication and I did talk. I talked to my oldest son, we talked about a month ago, and which was fine with him, (he works for dad, and if dad pays it will be cash hasn't paid anything for the last year) I didn't have to talk to my youngest son but I did anyway, cause I have custody. And the youngest daughter, I did talk to her about a month ago too, and when I asked her this time, she said fine, cause she didn't make any money at all. So there was communication. I do communicate, for I do things the right way. I do things LEGALLY!!!!!

That is the difference between the ex and I. I abide by the rules, most of the time. For I don't want to be caught in an IRS battle, government battle, or a battle with anyone. And the ex has made this into a big battle, cause he can't claim much this year. So he goes after me and yells at me at the post office. And used the oldest one to tell his problem to, the entangled triangle. And then it escalated from there. What I did was LEGAL, with approval, and that is the way I work!! And I am proud of that. I DON'T lie, I DON'T cheat, I DON'T do fraud! I may not read some of the jargon of paperwork properly, which some of the legal stuff is very difficuilt. But I am learning, and I have someone who can help me if I have questions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I did was LEGAL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You better make sure that claiming the oldest son and youngest daughter was LEGAL. Whoever can PROVE they provided more than half of their support is the one that can claim them. It is not cut and dry on who can claim them without someone proving something, and proving something to the IRS is not fun nor easy. I personally think the divorce decree gave you the right to claim the "minor" child (your youngest son). Also, you know you have this issue to address in the future with the youngest son as well as he is no longer a minor child.

I worry there is enough posting about money just on this website that might would hurt your case in PROVING that you did contribute half of their support (dad spending money, you can't spend any $ cause you only have about $15,000/alimony, etc). I really worry that it would be hard to convince the IRS that you contributed more than 1/2 the support of yourself and 3 dependants on your income.

I really think it would be in your best interest to come up with a fair compromise for this now and in the future. It really makes sense to me to come up with a plan that would get the biggest tax break and then split the refund or liability as we did with our son. I am not saying my son deserved any money but that is how my husband and I decided to work it. I would much rather my son have the money than the IRS. He could not have legally claimed himself if he had wanted to because he could not prove he provided any of his support. But in a kid's mind, it was his money because he thought he would get back what he had paid into the government which was not the case with no dependants.

IMHO, it would be to your benefit to put on your POJA clothes and get this worked out for now and the future.

ADV,

You really shouldn't be reading here or responding to any of this, Honey.

It's very inappropriate for you to participate in your mother and father's divorce issues which are being discussed, vented about and supported here. The marriage/divorce dynamics between your mom and dad are just that, BETWEEN YOUR MOM AND DAD.

Your mother comes here as a way to get through what she has gone through, and until you've experienced betrayal in your marriage, which I truly hope never happens, you cannot understand her point of view or need to process through this. And even then, you cannot understand HER FEELINGS NOR CAN YOU CONTROL THEM.

I strongly suggest you not read or post here any further, it's not healthy for you.

Please seriously consider my recommendation.

With respect.
Jo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ADV,

You really shouldn't be reading here or responding to any of this, Honey.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I politely disagree. If Faith is going to post in a public internet forum, she must, or should, know that ANYONE can read and respond to her posts, including her family or ex-husband. It's not a place to "hide." The internet is a PUBLIC place. If Faith wants to privately discuss these things, then she should do so... privately, with friends in real-life or via emails, etc. But this is not a "private" place.

I also don't think it's inappropriate for the daughter to participate. If it were a private discussion, obviously, she shouldn't eavesdrop, etc. but this is not a private conversation. It is a public discourse with a whole bunch of strangers via a very, very public and anonymous place... the internet.

Faith's daughter is a part of this family and Faith's conversations, thoughts, decisions, actions, etc. affect her daughter FAR MORE than they affect any of us who are not a part of these people's family and lives. She is the one whose family has broken up and still experiences upheaval, bitterness, anger, taking of "sides," etc. She is also an adult who obviollsy is very capable of carrying on adult conversation.

I also think she's made some very good points in many things I've read her write.

Yes, the marriage/divorce dynamics are between the mom and dad but they AFFECT the children. Yes, Faith comes here to get through the divorce, but is she getting through it? Is it really helping her? Maybe it is, but whenever I read her posts, I don't see it as helping her much.

I also think that her daughter "understands" the pain of this betrayal/divorce far more than we do because she is the one who is the DAUGHTER of these people who've betrayed/divorced. She has witnessed it firsthand. She has to live with it. She will always have to live with it. We don't.

I personally think it's very good that the daughter posts here so that Faith will realize that this is NOT a private place and not the best place in which to "solve" any of her problems. I have suggested to her before to seek professional counseling and to invest more time in real-life friends, church, etc. than she does here. I think that would be far more beneficial to her and I think that is something her daughter also sees.

So, I will have to politely disagree and I think the daughter, the ex-husband, the neighbor, the mother, or any other relative of Faith's has every right to be here as she does and if Faith doesn't want them to read what she's writing, then she needs to write things privately to trusted friends and not post them on the net where anyone in the world who has access to a computer can read it and respond.

P.S. I also don't get this whole thing about the daughter not "understanding" etc. It is HER FAMILY!!!!! She's the one in the midst of this. It is her father, her mother, her home. Her parent's marriage that's over. Her childhood memories with mom and dad. Her family. NOT OURS!!

Some of you speak as if you know Faith so well when your only interaction with her has been through this internet. And some of you act as if divorce doesn't or shouldn't affect the children, even if they are adults. Have you read the stats? Divorce is devestating to children, even adult children. They often suffer more than the parents. WE are not suffering as a result of Faith's marriage break-up. Faith is. The husband is. The children are. Why on earth should they be told to leave or to not get involved or be told that they are mentally ill???


TO: A DIFFERENT VIEW...

Don't be offened that someone called you mentally ill. It happens alot at Marriage Builders forum. It's total arrogance and rudeness, if you ask me, to call someone you don't even know "mentally ill" but I've seen it said here alot, by people who don't know the other person and are NOT professional counselors!

I admire your boldness to confront what was said to you because believe me, there are some strong personalities here whose claws pop out when you "talk back" and say something in opposition to what they've said. (I've been there and I am NOT a part of the "regular" group of women that gather together to sympathize with your mom or other women whose husbands are "hell bound.")

I don't know your mother well enough (well, I don't know her at all!) to know what's gone on, but I do know that ALOT of women in this world have husbands who either divorce them or have affairs because the woman was either controlling or bossy or nagging or nitpicky, etc... basically just plain diffcult to live with... and the man simply couldn't stand it anymore... and when he leaves, all hell breaks lose and the woman is the "victim" who cries "But all I ever did was love him" because they think that nagging and controlling a man is somehow love.

Again, I do not know your mother and do not know her behaviors and I am saying the above that "in general" there are many women who truly do drive their husbands (and others) away with their behaviors but yet feel they are the victims (I have a mother who was once like that). Obviously, that is what you see and you know your mother far more than any of us. Yes, she is hurting in many ways. The infedelity of a spouse is very, very devestating and healing can take alot of time. On one hand, you need to be compassionate towards your mom but on the other hand, her behaviors are affecting you negatively. And like I said, I've been there with my own mom, who I literally felt like I hated many times because of her harmful behaviors that she chose. There is NO way you can separate yourself completely from this because these are your parents and your family, and I know that this can all be a tremendous and difficult burden to deal with. And on top of it, you come here and are told it's basically not your business and you're mentally ill! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (sigh... don't let it get to ya!)

Anyways, I really don't post too much here anymore and I really don't get involved much in your mom's posts, other than when I say "lay off" when certain women go on a witch-hunt to expose a certain poster as being your father (which really I don't care if he is or isn't... I think he has every right to be here as you and your mom), but I did read your initial posts awhile back and thought that I'd post this time.

God bless and hang in there!

LME - I'm so glad to see that you are consistent - I never have shared much you've agreed with.

Family enmeshment is problematic and the potentcy of this daughter's behavior to basically step into her mother's divorce therapy "method of choice" to set the group straight would be cause for concern for any one close enough to the mental health profession to know.

Enabling this girl to think that what she is doing is a good thing is just totally wrong - will not help her become a healthy young woman in her own relationships...

But hey, your opinion is just what she wants to hear to validate her involving herself in a behavior that is not going to heal her relationship with her mother and definitely will not change her mother.

If you are an advocate for exercises in futility and sick family psychodramas, then by all means continue encouraging this girl in this path. Instead of two sick parents, now we can watch as this girl also, by an act of will totally immerses herself in the same illness that plagues her parents.

I'm so sad that you chose to encourage her this way.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

Kayla,

I have read things you have posted that I have indeed agreed with. But the one thing I have never and will never "agree" with is to label pepople as "mentally ill" or to slam them in other ways (which I witnessed you do awhile back in one of Peachy's posts... to several people, most of whom rarely ever post anymore).

If you were the daughter's mother or relative or even close friend, I might understand that you have insight into her perceived mental illness... but you are a stranger to all of these people. I assume, at least. Perhaps I am wrong? Are you a friend or family member of theirs in "real" life? If not, then you truly do not know all sides and you cannot possibly diagnose someone as being "mentally ill."

No one is "enabling" this daughter. But to censor her and tell her that she shouldn't post here is nothing less than people trying to control something or create some sort of ideal and safe haven in a place that is far from ideal of "safe" (the internet). She has not violated the TOS in any way and she is free to post here.

I personally don't consider this family a "sick psychodrama." I consider it a very sad thing... a family that has hurt each other, like many families, and that is hurting, suffering, and making poor choices... like many families. Life is very tough and people in this world are greatly hurting. It does not make them "mentally ill" or "sick" or "codependent" or all the other psychobabble terms that people love to throw around these days.

Unfortunately, Faith has chosen to continually broadcast her "psychodramas" here at this website for all to read and comment on.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

Lovemyex - I do not in any way psychodramatize. I tell my feelings, for I am not able to say my feelings to my children, for they should be getting their own lives on a path of their own. I do not express my feelings to my ex, for he doesn't care. So this forum is for me to express my feelings, and when the ex treats me like I am a pile of crap and kicks me in the ditch, I do need to express the pain.

My oldest D is in need of mental treatment. As well as the rest of the family. I did talk to my ex today on the phone, and he said he will think about going to professional counseling. The counselor I talked to suggested it, but I said, ex wouldn't even think about it. Cause when he had his affair, and announced it to the oldest D, husband at the time told the oldest D how wonderful this ow was, and how her mother was a terrible wife, he entangled this D in personal drama that should of been left out.

He still entangles her in his personal life. Which through counseling have found this to be emotional insest(sp?), possibly. I did talk to the ex today about this. D is his confidant, and she should not be. She should be out, looking at her life and finding her path. She should be doing things that are for her, and for her future. After all, as parents, we could die of a heart attack tomorrow. She should be working on her job, making money, putting money aside for investment. She should be making new friends, and finding interests that are her interests. Being involved with her father, and not finding her own interests is way out of line for a father to treat her D.

I am going to seek professional counseling for the whole family. For I am concerned, and I wanted to find counseling when the ex had his affair, but the ex said everything was fine at that time and he talked to the kids. Yeah, I could imagine what he said. Anyways, now I am taking the aciton that should of been done back then, for now I am taking the strong backbone action and taking care of my family. I do care about them, and I do fear for my family. I have expressed this fear with my counselor.

What I express here does happen. And has happened as I stated, for it is the way that I saw it. And for the control by the ex. He is still trying to control me today. For I made an appt. to see a lawyer, about getting the medical bills paid. Ordered by the judge. For the injury he caused to my back and shoulder. These bills are over 1 1/2 years old. And he told me to wait forever today. Then retracted his words, and said to wait. I have been waiting, and my credit is screwed. I have bill collectors calling, and I have to listen to the same speech from the collectors that you know your credit is messed up. This happens every month at the beginning.

I know my ex, and he needs someone to take care of his paperwork. I did offer for being paid in cash, but he has said nothing about it. This I am good at, and I like getting people organized. I don't feel that I should wait till he is ready. For he may never be ready. He himself has medical bills that are 6-7 years old. And that is why I couldn't see the Dr. that did my shoulder surgery that he tore my rotator cuff, for the other shoulder that is injured now. That is why my oldest D couldn't see the Dr. that did her hand surgery (she had to have 2 surgeries for metacarpal surgery, she broke 3 of them) and then broke her arm. The Dr. didn't want to see her for her arm, till the bill was paid for the metacarpal surgery.

Seeing a professional counselor I feel is the only way this family will get the help that we need. There is a lot of anger, and very much deep pain in each of us. The kids had to deal with their father committing adultery, with my calling their dad names, with both of us yelling at each other, with their inner state of a family divided and not a unit after 25 years. This is difficult for adult children. And according to some books it is more difficult for the adult children.

Posting has helped me, and yes, I finally did the no contact. Which has helped a great deal. I realize that I should of instilled this long ago. But once again I was afraid, so yes that was my fault. As well as many other parts of this marriage and the betrayal. But I will take no part in my husband having sex with the other woman. And choosing a woman that has no morals, for having 2 for sure sexual affairs in her marriage, and one with a minister. That is something that I will never understand.

I am trying to look out for my family. And I will find a professional counselor, so that my family can get their life together. Part of my job this week and next week, which I am good at searching things out. We all are in extreme pain, and all are dealing with a lot of emotional torture. Life has not been very pleasant for any of us, and that is what divorce does to a family. Breaks them totally apart, and leaves pieces here and there and the pieces leaves scars on the individuals. These scars will be there the rest of our lives. The pain will never go away. It will always be there. I realize that in reading books recommended.

Ex is a controller, and hates to be told what to do and when to do it. Part of his inbalance. I was always afraid to defy him, and that was my fault. I now know that I failed by not taking a stand on what should of been done. I have learned quite a few things, and am learning more. I am much stronger than 6 months ago. Life is not going to be easy, for me. As I do have a back injury. Just going to find some sort of job to make ends meet. And who knows, maybe I will come up with a great invention, or gimic that is waht this world needs. That is onething, I am creative, my daughter is very creative. And maybe she will compose a great gadget. I have deep faith in my D, and she is expressing herself here. It is evident that she needs counseling, as well as the rest of the family. There is nothing wrong with that, and I would say anyone that has gone through what we had to these last 3 years, need psychological help. This was not fair to myself and my kids. They didn't deserve this as well as I didn't deserve this.

All for now.

Your oldest D needs to be responsible for her own life. I feel for you -- my 10 year old said to me, "I hope you and Dad are happy by the time I have children." How sad. She's witnessed a bad marriage for her whole life. All we can do is try to turn it around or end it.

It sounds like you broke NC today. You don't need to organize your H or talk to him. Lawyers are good at talking. I am intrigued by your story because it is so similar to ours. Have you ever seen the movie, "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?" The movie depicts a M very much like mine and one which sounds like yours.

Faith,

No, I don't really think you "psychodramatize." That is why when I wrote that you share your "psychodramas," I put it in quotes. I was referring to the term that someone else used to describe your family. I know though that communication via the net is a very challenging and difficult thing. Which is one reason why I have always questioned how helpful it has truly been for you to be here and to share as much as you have.

To be honest, Faith, if you were my mother, I too would be very upset that you were saying some of the things you have said about both daughter and ex-husband simply because you are saying them w/o any reservation or discretion. What I mean is that you have chosen to publically state them on the internet where anyone and everyone can read... or can respond with: "Oh gasp! Your family is sick!"

If my mother came here and shared all the things you've shared about your family, I would possibly understand her motivation... that she was in pain and felt a need to "vent"... however, I would still be probably very disgusted with her for saying those things with so little reservation and discretion. My mother knows that it bothers me when she shares things about me (that I feel are negative) even if it's to other family members. If she comes to me, great. But is it anyone else's business? Not really. I also try not to share negative things about her, or others, even my ex-husband, because I believe there is much to be said about holding one's tongue and being discreet and choosy with who and what you share (and how you share it).

Your daughter is a young adult, and you need to respect her enough that if you feel that she "needs help"... tell her, don't tell everyone else!! It will cause her to only resent you and to feel like she can't share with you or trust you.

I suppose her comments about you have or will possibly do the same, although I think they were motivated by things that you had said.

I know that your pain must be very deep. And I truly do feel for you. But I have to be honest. I also feel for your daughter and for your husband too. I am not one who will listen to one "side" and automatically make a judgement. Your husband doesn't "care for you" as you said, but neither do you care for him or respect him because I believe that if you did, you wouldn't be calling him the "spawn of Satan" and sharing all his wrongs and sins and flaws and faults publically and many times, many details, many stories.

I don't see that as being respectful of someone and to be honest with you, it is no wonder that he treats you as he does. If he has read what you've written and if you speak to him this way in real life, whether or not he "deserves" it set aside... the fact is, he isn't going to have one single soft spot for you anywhere. He's going to want to get as far away from you as possible. He's proably going to also want to hurt you. It's not "right" but then is it "right" for you to broadcast all the things you do? In your eyes, yes, it is. But I'm sure that in his eyes, it's not.

Does that make sense? I know that he's hurt you and you feel that you "need" to share it and that you have the "right" to say these things, and I don't say this to hurt you, but you need to understand that if he hears them, reads them, etc... he will proably feel nothing but hatred for you. So in essence, when he chooses to stay with the other woman... well, what is his other choice? To return to a woman who calls him the "spawn of Satan" and judges everything he says or does? Why would he have any desire to #1 be with you and #2 be kind to you? And on top of that, why would your daughter not feel angry as well? This is her father that you are calling the "spawn of Satan."

I know that you are familiar with the Bible and the verse: "We reap what we sow." If you continuously say these types of things about your family, your family will be embittered, resentful, and so forth and they will return insult for insult. You can't call someone "spawn of Satan" or tell the world they are mentally ill, etc. and then expect those people to treat you well or the way you want to be treated. It simply doesn't work. You have known for some time that they come and read here, but yet you have not held back from the things you have said about them.

Faith, it does seem that in your posts, you are trying to get everyone against your husband (and now daughter) band in the end, you might have everyone here "on your side" but you are going to have two very bitter, resentful, and angry people (ex and daughter) to deal with in your day-to-day real life. There's NO way they'll read the things you write about them and simply smile and say, "Oh that Faith, she's so sweet and loving." There's no way they're going to be motivated to do good to you or to be kind to you.

I hope you can hear what I'm saying. I know you are hurting and I know it's hard. But your bitterness seems to only grow and fester like a scab that keeps being picked at. I wish I could take all your pain away, but I can't. I wish you could take my pains away, but you can't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I wish there was no pain in this world and that it was a perfect, sinless world. But it's not.

I think a close, trusted, IN PERSON friend or counselor or pastor who will be willing to support you, help you, and so forth, would be very helpful to you. It hurts your daughter to see your pain. And it hurts her to read what you write about her and your ex-husband. I think you need to put your daughter's desires and requests above the people's here. If it bothers your daughter that you share certain things, then respect that and refrain from sharing them. Is that really that hard to do? You have said things that now there are people who are lecturing your daughter, telling her to leave, and saying she is mentally ill. I can only imagine how that must make her feel. And I can only imagine how it makes her feel to hear others slam her father as well.

I wish you well. I have for the most part not replied to your posts. And I don't know if anything I've said here will make any difference. But I do wish you well and truly hope and pray that the Lord heals all of you and helps you all through this.

Lovemyex - yes there are things that I should of not said here. I apologize for these wrong statements. I did post to you on the other thread about Multiple Families posting. Ex was still on me about the taxes up to today, which he should of not involved the oldest D at all. For he told me today it was only a matter of a few hundred dollar difference. Nothing to affect either one of us. But he made it into a big issue at the post office, for it shows his control and power. And stated he was upset, justification for his actions. And then he involved the oldest D, which was not right. I didn't involve any of my kids, for this is between ex and I. Lovemyex, this is one example of what I had to deal with during the marriage and after. Today would of been a good example for him to apologize for his behavior at the post office, but once again he made light of the tax issues. Just stating no big deal. For inside I feel he knows he did wrong with his action to me and to the D and yes it is hard to face wrong and hard to admit the wrong to the person you hurt.

Part of my posting is to post the truth. Just like who exposed who to MB and how oldest D was involved on MB. I clarified it on the other thread. I wonder how this information gets so mixed up?

Ex has brought many things about the marriage here, and many things about his feelings with the OW here. Not to my approval, and yes I was very hurt & angry with him, especially when he compared my anatomy to the OW.

It is hard living everyday, when I try to protect myself, and he slides through with a shot at me and hits me hard. That is why the no contact had to be enforced, for he lived here like this was his home. For if you read the threads that I would come home from school and he was here watching TV and eating dinner. He would pop in without asking. And to this day he states he thinks this is stupid. For he states he feels he doesn't have to ask. And before the no contact, he just did that, came whenever he wanted to. All I had asked was for him to call and ask permission to come over. I wanted repsect, but there was no respect from the ex to me. I asked him many times to respect me, and he had to desire to respect me. So the no contact had to be enforced.

If the ex had kept the D out of the taxes, this issue would of not escalated to the point it did. I have an appointment tomorrow at court. I don't talk to my kids about it, cause it is none of their concern. I did talk to my son yesterday to see if he could drive me to the Dr. for I was in severe pain and couldn't drive and he saw that I was on the couch all day with a heating pad. And I even asked my oldest son to see if he could manipulate my back yesterday morning, but it was too painful.

I try to keep my kids out of this mess as much as possible. They have their lives, and need to get their lives in order.

As far as calling the kettle black, ex has done his damage here on MB and at home. He still is very disrespectful to me. He would like me to cooperate with him. Yeah, I could be the submissive person I was, and just say yes to everything with no regard to what I need. And as far as him being SNL and stating that he would take care of my needs, financial need, emotional need. I knew it was only words. Actions speak louder than words.

I have done things for him that were not acknowledge by him. I did personal things for him until maybe 2-3 months ago. He knows what those were. I even stopped at a garage sale this past weekend, and bought him 4 workshirts that were 50cents each. Knowing that he needed new workshirts, and they were exactly the type he likes, with a pocket on each side, and wash and wear and his size. I offered to do his paperwork for him back in October with pay. I guess to pay me was a turn off so then he asked the oldest D and she said no. Then he did ask me, and I said as long as I got paid. But nothing has come from that either. I have invited him to dinners, as you can read the many past posts. Sometimes when I made some cookies or a special dinner, the kids took him a plate. He even asked me to fix some buttons for him, and I did that.

I, also, had to find some papers he needed. I did that. There are many things that I have done for him. And once I had to watch the phones for him, but he didn't pay me till about 2 weeks later. I would ask for pay and he wouldn't pay, until one day I said I want to be paid now. You have to get mad and then he will respond.

Part of the situation, is he is very disorganized. Which is his problem, not mine now. I was his backbone and had everything in good organization order.

We both have criticized each other, till we felt beaten down. And the damage has been done by both of us. If my D was here reading when her dad was putting me down post after post, maybe she could see how I feel now. I do this out of anger, which I know is wrong. And I am trying to get better. I have never said that my daughter is mentally ill. I do think that she needs counseling, just like the whole family does. This divorce was difficult, and there was a lot of damage by both of us during this divorce. My daughter is an intelligent woman, and has a very articulate artistic eye. She will do well in her life, and she will find her path. She is a woman of love towards horses. I do feel that this love should be seeked, and hope that she finds a way to make a good living at it, through internet or sales or whatever. This has always been the love of her life.

I have to go. Kitty time to take all 4 to the vets.