You know -- it's with sadness that I read the posts from members in Faith4Me's family. Here she has a place where she feels that she can vent, and open up about things that she feels worried about -- perhaps get some advice (or the kick in the pants she needs).

Now add to that other family members -- who come in to the same forum and try to *convince* other members what this person is like in *true life*

You know what? This is a forum. If Family Members find it sooooooooooo important to convince virtual strangers about who's right and who's wrong -- why not spend that SAME time and ENERGY in REAL LIFE to try and communicate with eachother. Invest the TIME to go to family counselling and figure out what the real issues are and how to fix them instead of coming here and trying to convince us. You know what? At the end of the day are you really that much farther ahead?

Call a truce and for goodness sakes, have some respect and dignity. Enough is enough. I for one am tired of reading what Faith4Me has done or hasn't done. Not once have I read a post where either Daddy Dearest or Daughter Dearest says, "you know what, I made a mistake" or "I'm responsible for __________". What I have read in the past (from the very beginning) are posts from a woman who continually reaches out and trys her hardest to work towards becoming a better person. Whether that be taking some very *kick in the pants* posts to heart, or ignoring some sage advice from others she's at least TRYING!

I say BRAVO!

well..... because that would just make too much sense....
can't have people thinking too clearly, now can we?

attitudes like that are some of the many reasons why places like this exist to begin with.

Elan,

The one thing I am certain of is that the internet, no matter what forum it is, is NOT a "safe" or "private" place to post. If anyone thinks it is, they decieve themselves. Anyone who posts on the net is free to do so and takes a risk that someone who knows them might also post or that they might hear from posters they don't want, etc. That's just how it is. Faith's ex-husband and any of her family members have every right and reason to post here as she does.

I personally think that Faith's daugthter is frustrated and probably rightly so. I think far too many people here are involved in the whole drama and taking "sides," etc. and I think one of the best things that could be done is for Faith to stop "venting" here and to find support with REAL LIFE friends/family who know her. People here don't know her or her husband or daughters and there is NO WAY on this earth that anyone can truly know who's to blame for what.

You said why do Faith's family members spend so much time and energy here? Why do WE spend so much time being upset about it? I think the same could be said about those who post to Faith... that all of that time and energy could be better spent with their families and problems. Why do WE spend so much energy taking sides and worrying about whose who and whose "innocent" or guilty, etc.?? You know?

In the same way that she is "trying," I think her family members are also "trying."

Ok I agree that this a public forum - but though a divorce may effect the whole family - I think this site is more the parent than the child - even if that child maybe an adult - I truly believe that Faith4me deserves to talk to other people going through the same stuff - maybe someone here will get through to her .. And as for her daughter I sincerely believes she needs to get a life... she needs to stop trying to fix her father and mother's problems and issues and stop trying to put the blame somewhere else - and move away like she says she is going to... Time heals all wounds...

I hear you all -- I'm just so sad that the energy this family is spending on the board is not being spent in real life. They all want to be "heard" and none of them are. Just goes to show you how those emotional needs are so very important to all of us. Seems like those particular *banks* in this family are lacking and have been lacking for quite some time.

Hats off to everyone who can maybe shed some light into the darkness they are all showing us.

I, for one, left my disfunctional family at the age of 15 to live with a friends family to complete high school and NEVER looked back. It was the best thing I could have done for myself!

Today I'm 49 and have a 30 year-old son and a 27 year-old daughter who are both married with children. If we have a problem we talk with each other, we don't come to a public forum.

Too sad, I understand both sides of the coin here but I couldn't, as an adult child, CHOOSE to continue living amongst such disfunction for my own sanity!

Life IS a choice!

Edited to add that there is NO WAY I could "fix" my parents!

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Ragamuffin ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Elan:
<strong> I hear you all -- I'm just so sad that the energy this family is spending on the board is not being spent in real life. They all want to be "heard" and none of them are. Just goes to show you how those emotional needs are so very important to all of us. Seems like those particular *banks* in this family are lacking and have been lacking for quite some time.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sufdb...This is a divorce board, not a marriage building board, it was started (I assume) for the purpose of dealing with divorce issues...that of course can cover a whole smorgasboard of issues...from dating to parent/child conflicts, and everything in-between. It is NOT a vent board, venting is a destructive, self-defeating activity, to be avoided at all cost...and certainly not promoted or validated. Some sympathy is certainly helpful, but mostly any of these boards should be about problem solving, 2x4 whacking, accountability, inquiry, and so-forth.

Elan, you are assuming a lot of energy is not being spent in real life (this isn't real too?... and here I thought you all were people not programs, doggone it). Writing is an effective way of communication, especially when verbal communication is extremely difficult (and judgeing by what has been written, verbal communication is very difficult in f4m family). IMO the d is not particularly concerned with, or seeking anything from annonymous strangers here, rather she is trying to be heard by her mother, and IMO this is a good way of doing so....it is also obvious f4m is communicateing back through her posts. This is not the ideal means of course, and will not resolve problems by itself, but at least there is communication going on (as well as comments by uninvolved 3rd parties who occassionally actually have something useful to say, when they aren't projecting their own dysfunctional behaviours that is)...and judgeing by the volatility of f4m rhetoric, this is probably all that can be done for the time being....and is preferable to the in-person highly charged emotional confrontations that otherwise pass for "problem resolution" in their household.

Nor do I see any focus at all on fixing ones parents, all I see is an individual trying to "fix" a relationship with her mother...that would seem to be a laudable goal, and any tool that helps is a good thing methinks.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nor do I see any focus at all on fixing ones parents, all I see is an individual trying to "fix" a relationship with her mother...that would seem to be a laudable goal, and any tool that helps is a good thing methinks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No - the behavior of fixing a relationship is far different from fixing a person. This family is so enmeshed in fixing each other - setting "the audience" straight on what the others are REALLY like - there are no attempts to fix ANY relationship - more like damage it beyond repair.

SUFDB, please get your family the mental health care they need, including yourself.

I have a question for those so quick to criticize and classify ADV mentally ill.

How many of you would stand back and watch someone give drugs to your addicted family member without eventually stepping in (you know it really isn’t any of your business if they are a drug addict, porn addict, etc.)? IMO this is exactly what was happening with F4M (she appears IMO to be a “victim” addict), and she was getting her drug of choice (which is validation and sympathy) from here. I can see that possibly ADV felt that her mother was being supplied her drug of choice because well meaning posters didn’t know she was an addict and that all she needed to do was explain about F4M’s addiction in order to stop the drug supply. Of course, it just wasn’t that simple as in dealing with any addict.

Just curious about the above question, because I have thought for quite some time that F4M isn’t getting much help here. In fact, I think quite the opposite and that this site is not benefiting her AT ALL.

ADV - you tried and it didn't work so please move on for your own sake. I have a brother that is a recovering drug addict so I know how hard it is to convince yourself that there is nothing you can do to help them or make them stop.

You might as well learn that some people in this world simply are not happy unless they are complaining - COMPLAINING IS WHAT MAKES THEM HAPPY. Change your thinking, attitude, and reaction to it, and when you hear someone like that then just say to yourself "he/she sure is happy today." It really does help, try it.

F4M - you have been dealt a sad blow in life (who hasn't), but you can choose to waller in it or get up out of it. It is up to you. Put it behind you and MOVE ON. You really are alienating your children, and there is no doubt in my mind that you love them with all your being. In fact as much as you complain about them, I feel that you will be very sad when you don't have them ALL under your wing.

becontent - I don't know which "sympathetic" posts you are reading. She's not getting a "drug of choice" in terms of sympathy and validation for her behavior in continuing to persist in not moving on. The one thing I agree with you on is that F4M is getting a need met here and that it's not healthy. I personally have struggled on the fine line between helping F4M and feeding that unhealthy need. But do you know what the need is?

Here is what it is: Faith4Me is starving for attention - any kind of attention will do. And even though she gets hit with a disproportionate share of 2x4s over her unwillingness to change the locks, her ignoring feedback that empowers her, etc. she keeps coming back for more. So her addiciton has her feeding on negative attention - as if she doesn't get enough of that at home from her ex and his champion daughter aka prodigy.

I take it you've never been to a 12 step meeting. Because sometimes it takes an addict or an anon 2 years or more of processing emotional baggage to get sick of their victim mentality and move on. F4M is addicted to drama. SNL/LA/SUFDB is addicted to drama. And ADV is definitely demonstrating signs of the same addictive behavior.

Healthy people leave unhealthy situations. They put loving boundaries on the conditions that they will reconnect with unhealthy family members. ADV is herself, playing into the negative attention cycle that she advocates us not feeding her mother. She herself is part of the sick cycle she's supposedly trying to stop with her presence here.

No. I don't give ADV marks for even good intentions in this. She's simply buying into her father's battle. And has made it her own.

If ADV was NOT mentally ill, she would have the courage to leave home NOW. To draw healthy boundaries on her contact with her very ill mother and father. She would geta life. She would get with a qualified life coach or counselor.

I had to fight this battle myself - that's why I so passionately offered my help to ADV - because I know what I escaped and what it took for me to escape. And I know the rewards of escaping and getting healthy. I have a great relationship with my mother, even though my mother is still very depressed and caught in her drama cycle. She's 75 years old now and still living the same emotional battle, though my father chose out several years ago. They are still married. My father simply cares for her - he owes her a lot and he knows it. So he offers her his patience as she fights the ghosts of her past that aren't even real. But she doesn't call me at night - she knows that for 10 years I didn't answer the phone at night. Now, I do answer, because I know she respects the boundary and will only call me in the event of an emergency - which has happened three times in the last two years...

Sigh. I don't know if you understand how well I know the life ADV is headed for if she doesn't get out now...

Maw, I honestly have nothing "against" you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but I disagree in several ways with your views of the site. I don't know why it should be only for or about the parent and not a child nor do I see any disclaimer that specifies that. Divorce is a very far-reaching thing that not only affects the couple, but also the children, and even the in-laws, friends, etc. I have been depressed and deeply affected by the infedelities and/or divorces of other people in my life who were not even a part of my family.

Yes, Faith "deserves" to talk but this site is simply not a private place. And it is full of strangers, anonymous people who come and go. And I also agree with others that "venting" is a highly overrated and misunderstood thing that really doesn't usually help-- esp. once one gets to the fourth, fifth, and so on vents! Maybe one or two might bring temporary relief, but in my opinion, "venting" mostly just stirs up the anger, bitterness, and/or self-pity/sadness of the person venting, esp. when others join in and coddle the person, which I sometimes see happen here in these forums (not just with Faith).

I agree that Faith should be able to talk to others who've been in her shoes, but she has to know that she takes a risk in doing that in a PUBLIC internet forum. ANYONE can read in and join, even if she (or we) don't like it. I think she would do far better to go to a divorce support group at her church where it is in a REAL building with a door. There is no door on the internet. People can come and go freely and "eavesdrop" or join in on any conversation they want to. It's not like that in "real" life where there are doors, locks, fences, etc.... in other words, there are boundaries and it is much easier to have true privacy than on the net where nothing is truly private.

I honestly think it is very, very rude and presumptuous for anyone here to be saying things like that the daugther needs to "get a life" or that she is "mentally ill" or the other things I've read that are pure defamations of her character coming ONLY from those who are internet friends with her mother and thus, they feel some sort of bond with her or some sort of need that that they must protect her.

It's the same with SUFB-- who personally I don't care one bit if he is Faith's husband. He has said he's not, and that's enough for me. And if he is, I still don't care. I don't think it's wise to begin with for Faith to share all the details that she does here and I think she does so to her own detriment. I'm not going to get my "feathers ruffled" over it and for the life of me, I have NO understadning of why some here do. It's truly baffling!). But the same people simply have such a desire to "expose" SUFB or to tell him and/or Faith what to do and they get so "bent out of shape" when others don't agree or Faith doesn't take their advice. You really need to ask "why"?

But the point is, Faith's children and husband have every single right and freedom to be here as she does.

I don't believe that the daughter is trying to "fix" her parents. But again, it is HER family. It's not our family and we are not the ones in the midst of this. SHE is. If your parents were in an embittered battle and divorce and all the hate, anger, sadness, etc... well, sorry, but even if you ran away to Africa, you'd still be concerned and saddened because it's your family... your parents.

Faith's daughter is expressing her feelings and views just like her mother does and she has every "right" to have them validated like her mother does. To invalidate the daughter's views and to call her "mentally ill" or tell her to "get a life" is just wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If ADV was NOT mentally ill, she would have the courage to leave home NOW. To draw healthy boundaries on her contact with her very ill mother and father. She would geta life. She would get with a qualified life coach or counselor.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kayla, I honestly can't even believe that I am reading this.

There is nothing "mentally ill" about someone whose in the midst of feuding parents, and moving from her home might bring her some relief, but it's not going to change the fact that her parents are where they are. What does it matter if she is 25 (or however old) and living with her mother? Is it even our business to label that as somehow wrong or "sick"? If she wants to live there, that's HER business and I don't think any of us is knowledgeable enough to know whether it's healthy or not.

I live in an area with many Hispanic and Asian people, and in their culture, they live together for a long, long time. They don't send their parents to nursing homes. They keep them in their homes! Their sons and daughters often live their with their spouses. It's not only economical but they enjoy having their family around.

It's only us Americans who think that somehow it's strange for a person to live with their family if that person is a parent or adult son or daughter. And it's only been since about the 60's or so I believe, that it's been that way. Well, right now, times are tough economically and alot of adult children are living with their parent(s). I don't view it as necessarily being an unhealthy thing but as an econcomical thing, a temporary thing, and sometimes, just something they want and whose to judge them for it?

Maybe Faith's daughter can't afford to move right now. Maybe there are other logical and good reasons for it. It's really not our business and living with a grieving and "dysfunctional" person certainly doesn't qualify someone as being mentally ill! If it does, I think we'd all be mentally ill because I think we all live with some amount of dysfunctionality because it's a pretty dysfunctional world altogether!

What kind of life is it that Faith's daughter should "get"? The life of saying "Screw you" to her parents and turning her back on them? How is it "mentally ill" for her to care and to be affected over this or to want to HELP her mother by sharing that there is a whole other side to this that the people here aren't aware of?

I also disagree that her parents are "ill." Maybe they are, but I certainly don't know them well enough to say that. Do you? Do you truly know them as well as you think you do?

I personally think they are both hurting greatly and have been in the past and I think this website is nothing but a great detriment to Faith. I told her long ago that I felt that way and thought the best thing she could do would be to LEAVE but for some reason, she believes it helps her to come here, and maybe it does, although it doesn't appear that way. If it does, great, and then I stand corrected, but there are WAY too many people involved in this and many wanting to "take sides" and coddle/protect Faith and who seem to think they know exactly what's best for her and for the daughter, and I find that just so totally presumptous.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

For all those who say ADV should stay out of her parent's business, all I have to say is F4M has made it her kid's business by telling them explicit details of their father's affair. No one seems to remember that it is in fact the mother who drums into her kid's heads that their father slept with another woman, that he's the spawn on Satan and that one day he'll get his. The daughter didn't pry this out of her, she forced this crap on them.

I don't feel ADV is "mentally ill", she's rightously pissed off at the guilt trips, nasty talk about her father and the half-truths that keep coming out.

Yes, it's very ugly to see all this drama on the board and it's sort of embarrassing too. Lots of dirty laundry being hung out in public view. The problem is, F4M seems to take all the indignation and calls to arms from this board and use them as a weapon to berate her ex-h in front of her kids. That is dead wrong, I don't care how old the kids are.

It all well and good for everyone to say ADV should leave home but it's not always so easy to do so, keep in mind that this girl just graduated from college she's not been loafing around all this time.

All I see is a young woman tired of hearing so much nastiness directed at here father and afraid of her mother languishing in her bitterness forever. She's coming here because this place fortifies her mother in her destructive tendencies. I don't doubt posting here is a last resort for ADV in an effort to get her mother to start putting the past behind her.

I feel that ADV is 25 years old not 15 and well since her parents have duked it out here what is wrong with her giving her side of the story. Although I rarely agree with LMX I do have to say she is right. This is a public forum. As I read how this whole soap opera has unfolded I have to say I believe some of what they all have said. What we are reading is their perceptions and as we all know how one percieves a situation can be totally different then the other.

I believe F4M uses this forum to get back at her EX and her children. Just as her daughter seems to be using it to get back at her Mother. She isn't venting or wanting help she is trying to piss off her EX. Hopefully she will get a little help here and learn a few things but I really don't think that is why she is here.

When Sufdb posted a while back and admitted he was SNL I really read what he had said. Not that I believed everything he said either but it made me stop thinking of F4M as a victim. I don't think any of them are bad people they are just really screwed up. I feel that if you don't want to read what they are saying to eachother than don't click on the topic.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: jillybean36 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
[QB] [QUOTE]There is nothing "mentally ill" about someone whose in the midst of feuding parents, and moving from her home might bring her some relief, but it's not going to change the fact that her parents are where they are. What does it matter if she is 25 (or however old) and living with her mother? Is it even our business to label that as somehow wrong or "sick"? If she wants to live there, that's HER business and I don't think any of us is knowledgeable enough to know whether it's healthy or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The challenge for ADV and the mentally ill pattern is not that she's living at home, but that she's going around policing her mother, reading her mother's correspondence, correcting anybody who doesn't see her mother in the blackest light - chastizing anyone who gives emotional support... I could go on...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I live in an area with many Hispanic and Asian people, and in their culture, they live together for a long, long time. They don't send their parents to nursing homes. They keep them in their homes! Their sons and daughters often live their with their spouses. It's not only economical but they enjoy having their family around.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Those are HEALTHY families. This one is not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It's only us Americans who think that somehow it's strange for a person to live with their family if that person is a parent or adult son or daughter. And it's only been since about the 60's or so I believe, that it's been that way. Well, right now, times are tough economically and alot of adult children are living with their parent(s). I don't view it as necessarily being an unhealthy thing but as an econcomical thing, a temporary thing, and sometimes, just something they want and whose to judge them for it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no argument on this point - in a healthy family. This family will NEVER be healthy as long as everyone keeps doing the insanity they're doing, and that INCLUDES ADV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe Faith's daughter can't afford to move right now. Maybe there are other logical and good reasons for it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps there are, but nothing in what she's shared indicate that there is a greater benefit for her staying home than moving away - not even financially.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's really not our business and living with a grieving and "dysfunctional" person certainly doesn't qualify someone as being mentally ill! If it does, I think we'd all be mentally ill because I think we all live with some amount of dysfunctionality because it's a pretty dysfunctional world altogether!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely agree with you - dysfunction is everywhere. Just living with someone who is grieving does not qualify someone for being mentally ill. It's how we react to someone's mental illness that determines mental health within ourselves.

To ignore the elephant in the living room is not normal behavior - that is an extreme opposite of what we have here with ADV. ADV's reaction is quite the opposite. She not only sees and acknowledges that there is an elephant in the living room, she is actively pursuing behaviors like an anon child would - similar to the child which runs around to the bars her parent hangs out to drink - warning the bar tender to not sell her mom anything, telling all her buddies and co-miserators how bad she is about alcohol; she also runs around checking the cabinets for the bottles, and repeatedly dumps out the liquor of an alcoholic parent, thinking that will stop the alcoholic behavior. Read up on this, LME. This is not normal behavior! THAT is what I'm getting at. This is NOT a reaction from a healthy young woman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What kind of life is it that Faith's daughter should "get"? The life of saying "Screw you" to her parents and turning her back on them? How is it "mentally ill" for her to care and to be affected over this or to want to HELP her mother by sharing that there is a whole other side to this that the people here aren't aware of? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never said the daughter should say "screw you, Faith4Me - I'm off to live my own life". I have said for her to realize that she has an identity that doesn't revolve around her mother and father's conflict. That she needs to extracate herself from the conflict. That the sooner she chooses out of the cycle it will benefit her mother, but it will effect her father as well. Right now, he's entirely dependent upon this daughter to keep the psychodrama attack against his wife going. She chooses out, while Faith4Me keeps the boundary in force that her x doesn't come to her house, and what's he going to do? Stop digging at his xw? Probably not. But at least she's not enabling his sick behavior and dumping her mother's bottles out...

LME - you may not have intervened with adolescents and young adults who do this with their parents. I have. I'm not here to display credentials or work history. This goes beyond my own personal experiences with my mother, but my personal experiences give potentcy to what I say, because I haven't just read a diagnostic manual. This is far more grave and serious for ADV than you can imagine.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

What SUDFD stated about the rhetoric that f4me states, says right there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Have many of you heard about the Mental Insest that one puts upon their children. This is what my counselor feels ex has done to my oldest D. He finally admitted today that he might like to talk to a professional counselor. I said, that he would have to pay for it, for I am financially strapped.

My oldest D, needs counseling. And I do wish that she gets her life in order. Her businesses on the internet are taking a long time to get going. And while someone is waiting for a business to take off, there should be another income coming in to subsidize the outflow of cash needed.

Many of you know that ex uses semantics in words. Yes, I did throw the affair in my ex's face. The ex used me during his affiar. And protected the other woman, but not me his wife. And the other woman used me too. (That is where I was so stupid and I should of turned her over to the cops)(which I found out I could of) And ex used my settlement $$ from a previous injury to buy the house in Arizona for him. And yes, I did use the affair at my kids. I realize that was wrong and I was wrong. I lived for 3 years with my ex telling me how awful I was, telling me how wonderful his OW was. Telling me he never loved me, and as he wrote here on MB as SNL, he even posted here that he never loved me at the altar. How sexually great the OW was and even had me ask my gyn to check my anatomy out to see what was wrong with me. That was awful, and my gyn was so upset with his comparisons.

I do tell the kids now, that their dad did very wrong, and that the other woman is very messed up. But I said that is his sin, and that I am no longer involved in his life. For him to be back with the other woman, is his problem. If that is the type of woman he wants, that is his life.

The help needed here in this family is more than MB can offer totally. But I have done some things that were recommended by you all. I did live in fear here. For ex used my home as his home and it upset me. I didn't have a safe home till I put the no contact in action. I don't feel totally safe yet, for he calls here many times. He is a controller and controllers don't give up. Just like the taxes. He can claim one child now. I agreed to it with duties to help me financially, talking with my oldest son, which this son was very nice and we talked for about one hour. I asked the son if he would be willing to talk. Now I am getting a lawyer, for the medical bills that ex is suppose to pay. The injury he did to me, caused a big bill. He told me today, that I should wait forever for him to pay the medical bills. Then he retracted his word 'forever'. NOw it is wait till he is ready. Cause I stated that no, my credit is totally screwed form these overdue bills, plus more. And the insurnace he had to get according to the divorce decree (judge ordered). He is now finally going to do something about the insurance. See, ex waits and waits till one gets so upset. Same thing is happening at his mothers house where he lives. She says she has to get really mad, then ex will do something. Ex expects others to wait till he is ready. In the meantime my credit is screwed, just like his has been screwed for over 15 years. My oldest daughters credit is screwed, cause her Dr. bills are not paid.

He did send me a e-mail, which I said I didn't receive. Cause I was told by all of you on MB here many months ago to put a block on his e-mails. Well, I did do that this week. And now ex wants me to reconsider not blocking his e-mails. He said how can we communicate, if we can't with e-mails. More of I should do what he wants. I will think about it maybe next week. But not this week. And the no contact will be enforced for a while yet.

Ex doesn't see where he has done anything wrong. Like today, with the anatomy of my being unsexually adequate according to the other woman. He said it was biology again today. That really hurt me mentally. Plus all the FBs he called me. Spit in my face, and threw things. Yes, he has an anger problem. And yes, that is exactly what he did at the post office. Once again today, he said he was upset at the post offce, and I guess that justifies his actions. He is a personality type A. I have known this for a long time. They have a hard time giving things up and losing control.

We as parents, did what we could. I was not allowed to do things in my home as a mother until I asked my husband. Many examples could be given. My neighbors asked me why I had to ask my husband. One, I was scared. Which is in the controller wheel. Plus I allowed this to happen. I should of taken him by the reins and said, honey this is the way I am going to do it. For I am in charge of taking care of the kids. I was scared to defy my husband. Which comes from my childhood. I was scared to defy my mother. Now things are much better between my mother and I. I told her that we are two different people. And that I want to handle things this way. And I want to do things the way my counselor and I have worked on. I am not a vindictive person like my ex states about me. I am a scared woman. And my ex hurt me physically and mentally. Which he does not own up to.

MB is a good forum, when one is honest to who they are and being radically honest about the situation. My D I think Kayalandy had a good repoire with her. My D does need some counseling, for she has been entwined in an ugly situation. She should of been left out from the beginning. When ex was in his affair, he talked to the oldest D and how wonderful the OW was. This daughter should of been left alone from the very beginning. So I do wish that if my D does post here again. Please help her. She is a beautiful woman, with great potential. I do feel she is lost, and doesn't know what to do with her life. She needs to get out of the emotional entanglement with her dad. And yes, she never criticizes her father. Which one of you stated above. She is always trying to protect her father. Not healthy for her. And the ex doesn't see anything wrong with it. The other thing, is ex doesn't have friends. Just his other woman. And my D does have a few really good friends. They could be a good source of companionship for her, and a good source of finding herself.

My D is intelligent and has fantastic artisitc ability, and a great sense of common sense. My D will make it. She is beautiful and is a VERY hard worker. I have to say, that she does work her butt off on the horses, which is her first TRUE love. In fact the baby horse, Lilley, was born 3 years ago yesterday. She is a arabian foul and she was born on Easter, so my D named her Lilley. A perfect name for a beautiful horse. She was 3 years old yesterday and I have to say she is a prize arabian.

Many times, I am scared. I am still scared at times to hurt my ex. For that is the way our ugly dance was. I am learning to take my life and move on. It is hard, but I am doing much better than I was 6 months ago. But the no contact was what really helped me. I do wish that I did that at the day of the divorce. But I was being kind to my ex, and letting him have his way. He still says I am being mean by doing this.

I do believe that multiple family members can help at times. But if you were to read my ex's post from way back. He criticized everything about me. I was basically a piece of crap to him. His other woman was the only good thing in his life. My kids weren't even something that he cherished. Only his other woman. To this day, it shows that I am just crap to him still. Just by the rehtoric I state here on MB.

If one can be civilized to each other, there is much to be gained from voicing with multiple family members. The triangle was created by my ex, with him and D against me F4me.

Hopefully, counseling can help, if ex is willing to go.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Faith4me ]</small>

F4M you are wallering in poop, get out of it. Old poop at that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is always trying to protect her father. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I bet I can explain to you why she does this. When another person runs down a loved one, we naturally get in a defensive mode. Of course, she is defending him and she will continue to do so as long as you are spending your days, weeks, and months running him down and trying to convince them how bad he is. I can tell you all my husband's and boy's faults, but you better not utter a word about them or really even agree with me when I say it. That is the way love is.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: becontent ]</small>

Lovemyex - OK I stopped reading this post after your post to me - but I am going to state what I think to you... Basically I think everyone here gets way to judgemental about how and what everyone should do about there situation... In a way Faith4me - by telling her family that she came here - opened herself up to hearing their opinions on her comments... I mean really you are right - what does anyone know on the internet - you are condeming people for giving their opinions which is exactly what you are doing just in the other direction... And by all means I totally agree with you that the divorce involves all sorts of family members - but I do not believe that a 25 year old "child" should be as involved in her parents little fights with the he said she said - none of that is right... Do you think that it is healthy for a different view to be this involved??? I mean frankly I think that they should all sit down - with a counselor and discuss all of these issues as a family because by coming here none of them are doing any of them any good. Now I come here because I want to know that it is ok - that somedays I still feel down because I am divorced and because I was betrayed - somedays I come here so someone can tell me that I am not crazy and that it is ok to still feel this pain .. And other days I come here so people will tell me - Yes you are crazy and you shouldn't be feeling this way... "I" is really the only person that can change "I" but sometimes it is nice - to vent a little - though again maybe not so healthy in some peoples eyes" - or to maybe cry a little - but people really shouldn't be taking sides in a family dispute - with actually members of the family.. I mean can you imagine them all in a fight - before it was Mom, Dad and Daughter - Son and now there fights probably start out -well Kayla Andy said this and Lovemyex agrees with me - and becontent said something else.... I mean really is that healthy in anyone's opinion... ??? Now I didn't know who Faith4me's husband was or said he was - or whatever - I knew that diff. view was the daughter because she said she was... but really this is all getting a little out of hand - everyone is here to share their experiences to maybe help someone through a situation, give insight - really we are not referee's and I am sorry you don't agree with my views - but really this is getting ridiculous...

Maw - yes my D was involved way too much. I do feel I was trying to keep things away from the kids, as well as the ex. Except for the final decree. I did say we are officially divorced. There was sadness in their eyes, and they all walked away. This is highly expected, and there was gloom for many many weeks.

I kept many things to myself, as to my feelings and the pain I suffered from the injury and so forth. Yes, my kids saw me cry so many times. I couldn't help it. I cried by myself at night, and sometimes I didn't even come out of my room, until I knew that I was alone. I didn't want to live many days. For the crying made my face so swollen and red.

I had 2 people that I could talk to on a regular basis. They infact called me, when I refused to return their calls. And one actually came over when I didn't return her calls. She knew I was really depressed, and then I did call my gyn with her support that day to set up an appt and talk with the gyn again. For the gyn is the one that was involved at the beginning, and when my ex wanted me to find out what was wrong with me anatomically and when I wanted to commit suicide and my husband didn't do anything to help me, this gyn was called.

My oldest D needs to be on her own for awhile. To find her life, without the interception of her two parents around. I feel this would give her a clear head, and not have to be involved. She could find her path in life, with who she feels she can be the most comfortable with. I do feel she will someday find someone to love honestly.

Her younger sister, is doing well. Graduating from college this spring and off to an internship job in engineering. The oldest D and her younger sister, do talk, but are not of greatest friends now. They did have involvement with each other in the horses. But the younger D decided to give her horse up and pursue her career. The oldest still loves horses, and has always loved horses since she was 2. She at that age wanted a toy that you sit on and push with her feet, had to be a horse. We went to the library and she would get horse books. I read many horse books to the kids, as well as animals stories. My kids do love animals. I do feel my D should do something related to horses. For this is her LOVE and life.

When the ex had his affiar, I did want the whole family to go to counseling. But the ex said no, that he talked to all the kids and everything is fine. I should of done what I felt right, and made an appointment and said we all are going. But once again, I was afraid to go against my ex's words. Even at that time he was my husband. Now, this is my fault. I knew in my heart what I should do, and even the Harleys told me that the whole family should get counseling. But I didn't do it, and now look at the mess we are all in. Once again, this is my fault. But now I am going to find a good professional counselor. And get the help that this family needs. For I am afraid for my family.

Yes, there is he/she said. This will continue until counseling is available for the family. First I was told, it should be ex and myself. I would like to express to ex how much he hurt me physically and emotionally. And I am sure he would like to express how I was not a good wife to him.

We all are decent people. Ex and I are in a submarine that crashed and is sitting at the bottom of the ocean with x amount of 02. The kids are at the top diving down in their scuba gear hammering away at the opening at the top. Each of them fearing for their parents. That is what I see.

There are times, when I get really down. I do have someone to talk to when I get like that. And of course, I don't relay that to the kids at all. This is something that I have had to deal with, for over 3 years. The blow that my ex did, is like the Harleys stated, telling you that you have terminal cancer and have a short time to live. And no spouse to share your problems with. It hurt, and did destroy trust with him. For I trusted this man, even when the Harleys were counseling us, and told me things to do that the ex said to me you don't want to do that. I did what the ex said, instead of what should of been done. Now I know, and that is another, it is my fault totally.

Sorry so many of you are caught up in this triangular storm. This is not a very loving family anymore. For, the kids are torn severely, and the family is not a unit. Hard to deal with after 25 years of a unit. My goal is to find professional counseling, and have each of us find our path.

Faith, I think professional counseling would help, and it's okay if it's just you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> it might even be better if it's just you w/o any other family members. It is very difficult for children, no matter their age, to deal with the divorce of their parents and the bitterness/anger/hate that goes with it. And I say this as one whose parents divorced. And keep in mind also that your daughters have different personalities and probably also different ways of doing things.

Faith, it's only normal/natual that your D will protect/defend your father, ESP. here where her father is attacked. I am sure that she is fully aware of her father's wrongdoings.. in fact, I have read her share that she is. But he is STILL her father and she still loves him. And it hurts her I'm sure to hear you and others say the things said about him. The fact remains, good or bad, he is her father. Children usually don't love a parent based on their good or bad behavior. They simply love because that parent is their parent and there is that child/parent bond there.

She might privately decide to share her angers, etc. about her father to someone else, but she probably won't to you or to people here because she knows that you all hate him and will attack him and look down upon him. Basically it comes across as if you and others see yourself as better than him, and it's just a plain ol' ugly attitude for anyone to have.

I hope that makes sense.

You need to work at forgiving both yourself for your failures, and also your husband for his. Forgiveness is a very freeing thing and until it happens, we can be literally enslaved to our pain, our self-pity, our anger, our bitterness and it often spills over into the lives of our loved ones, as you know it has with your daughters.

Forgiveness is not easy and often is a continuous thing that we have to work at. But it's important and beneficial. Studies even show that people who forgive live longer! I don't believe you've truly forgiven him because you still bring up so much about him. There is still so much hurt within you. Are you taking antidepressents at all? Have you considered it? It might be that you have been so down for so long now that they might be needed to bring you back up.

I shared some other things directly to you on the other post as well. Faith, you've only got one life to live. Listen to the daughter who loves you and hear what she is saying. She might not be as "lost" as you think she is.