Actually Fly --
I dealt with some of the same issues as far as being very dissatisfied with SF during my marriage. Not to the extent that you've talked about -- but I was not happy at all.

I'm more "male-oriented" when it comes to that, and it is one of my top EN's. I was really unhappy for a long time, and my exH knew it. But thought he could ignore my issues.

He did not do a @)(#*$ thing about any of my needs or issues until he absolutely had to, which is after I had an affair and nearly destroyed myself. Which to me, means that its all insincere and only done to preserve the marriage -- not because of any love, care, or concern for ME.

All of the changes were to keep me in place so that he would have what HE wanted. UGH, I hate to relive these feelings. Makes me realize how much better my life is now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lexxxy:
<strong> Actually Fly --
He did not do a @)(#*$ thing about any of my needs or issues until he absolutely had to, which is after I had an affair and nearly destroyed myself. Which to me, means that its all insincere and only done to preserve the marriage -- not because of any love, care, or concern for ME.

THIS IS SCARY SIMILAR. HE HAS DONE SOME THINGS -- "SAFE" THINGS, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SPECIFIC THINGS I HAVE TALKED ABOUT OVER AND OVER FOR YEARS, THEY ARE STILL THERE, PREVALENT IN OUR EVERYDAY LIFE. WE TALKED ABOUT IT IN MC TODAY, AND HE JUST SITS THERE, UNREMORSEFUL, UNEMOTIONAL, ARM UP ON THE BACK OF THE COUCH RELAXED WITH NO COMMENT ABOUT IT. WHEN PUSHED, HE SAYS "IT'S THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS LIVED, IT'S WHAT I'M USED TO... I GUESS I TEND TO REVERT BACK TO IT B/C IT'S ALL I KNOW"

HE SAID TODAY IN MC THAT THE SILENCE IN THE HOME BETWEEN US "DIDN'T REALLY BOTHER HIM THAT MUCH", THAT HE USED TO DEAL WITH IT IN HIS HOUSE AS A CHILD, AND IT WASN'T ALL THAT UNUSUAL FOR HIM. HE SAID HE WOULD PREFER IT NOT BE THAT WAY, BUT IT DIDN'T HURT HIM TO LIVE LIKE THAT. HE DID SAY HE THOUGHT IT PROBABLY WASN'T GOOD FOR THE KIDS, THAT I SHOULD AT LEAST PARTICIPATE IN "SMALL TALK" WITH HIM TO HIDE IT FROM THEM.

SEE WHAT I MEAN?!? HE KNOWS I PROBABLY WON'T FORCE DV ON HIM, AND SO IN THAT SECURITY HE CAN CONTINUE TO BE WHO HE IS COMFORTABLE BEING. WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS STUFF FOR 18 MONTHS AND I LISTENED TO MY MC TODAY TELL US "LET'S TAKE THE FIRST STEP BY TALKING A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS TO EACH OTHER." BULLS***! GAWD, IS SHE JUST OUT TO STRING THIS THING OUT FOREVER TO COLLECT OUR $$$???

All of the changes were to keep me in place so that he would have what HE wanted. SCARY, AGAIN.

I HAVEN'T SEEN MY H, STILL, TO THIS DAY, SHED A SINGLE TEAR OVER OUR SITUATION. GET REALLY ANGRY. EXPRESS PASSIONATE FEELINGS. SHOW RESENTMENT, ANGER, FEAR, ANYTHING. HE JUST SITS THERE LIKE HE'S LISTENING TO A SERMON IN CHURCH OR SOMETHING.

I ASKED HIM TODAY, WITH ALL HIS HISTORY OF SNEAKING AROUND, LYING, AVOIDING, DOING WHATEVER IT IS HE WANTS TO DO WHEN HE WANTS TO DO IT... AND ALL THE SUBSEQUENT HURT FOR ME... AND THAT BEING THE BIGGEST THING I NEED ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP TO CHANGE... HOW... HOW HE COULD END OUR "QUASI-SEPARATION" BY "SNEAKING" BACK INTO THE HOUSE WHEN I WAS AT THE GROCERY STORE. I MEAN COME ON... DID HE REALLY THINK I WOULDN'T NOTICE THAT HE HAD MOVED BACK HOME?!? HOW HE COULD DO THAT IN GOOD CONSCIENCE WITHOUT AT LEAST HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT IT? HOW HE COULD NOT EVEN MENTION HIS INTENTIONS WHEN I HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT IF HE WANTED TO MOVE BACK HERE THAT I WOULDN'T PROTEST, THAT I FELT HE HAD AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE HERE AS ME, MAYBE MORESO SINCE I VIEW IT AS HIS HOUSE ANYWAY.
I SAID TO HIM THAT TO DO THAT... TO HIS WIFE WHO HAS ALREADY SAID SHE IS NEAR EMPTY ON HOPE, FAITH, AND BELIEF THAT WE CAN EVER PUT THIS THING BACK TOGETHER... IS PROBABLY THE WORST THING HE HAS EVER DONE, COULD HAVE EVER DONE TO OUR M.
HE DIDN'T SAY ONE SINGLE WORD. NOT "I'M SORRY", NOT "GO TO HE_LL", NOTHING. EMOTIONLESS. CASUAL.

I TELL YOU, I CAN'T BELIEVE PEOPLE CAN JUST FLATLINE LIKE THIS BUT I'M SEEING IT FIRST HAND. AND I CAN'T BELIEVE AFTER 18 MONTHS WE ARE RIGHT BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED, HIM DOING THINGS THE WAY HE HAS ALWAYS DONE THEM. AND NOT REALLY SEEMING TO CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

AND TO THINK THERE MAY ACTUALLY BE ANOTHER MAN LIKE THIS, AND YOU WERE MARRIED TO HIM, IS SCARY.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hey Flygirl,

Been REAL busy….

HEY! You think selling used tires is all glamour, beautiful women, and Big $$$?

Sure, it’s mostly that, but the pressure I’m under!

Hahahaha

About this “Seems, he opened his heart to you. Truth is, he was courting you, Flygirl. He was happy, it seems, if this courtship simply resulted in close friends. YES, HE SAID SO MANY TIMES, NEVER PUSHED THE PHYSICAL PART... WAS FRIGHTENED OF THE PHYSICAL PART. IT WAS ME WHO COULDN'T HOLD OFF ANY LONGER”.
IF, you could have held off the PA, then you probably could still be friends. Was it worth it?

About this “THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "CLOSE" RELATIONSHIP WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX THAT IS APPROPRIATE OR SAFE FOR MARRIAGE”. I would say, that sometimes such friendships SAVE a marriage, as some NEEDED EN’s are met elsewhere. Still, touchy. I have had 3 close women friends, say, in the last 5 years. 2 were single, 1 married as well. One of the single ones, after awhile, made the move. I passed. With the other single one, we are still friends after many years. She relies on my for many things (thinking things) she might her husband (if she had one). No Se_x, ever, and that is really not on the table. So, yes, they can be done, and can even HELP a marriage, I think. But, you have to manage them….

“BINGO”
Cr_ap, you always win….

“BINGO”
Hey, wait a minute! Think I was born yesterday? There is something fishy going on here, with you winning every single game! You got something going on with the bingo guy, the one who calls out the letters, right? You know, the guy with the couch….

Hahaha


About this “OUR MC TELLS MY H HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO LOVE A WOMAN. AND HE ISN'T REALLY DOING ANYTHING TO FIND OUT HOW”.
You told me a little about your psychological leanings, and I know a bit of his from your comments. He seems OVERLY passive about relationships. Maybe, he feels overwhelmed, and is frozen in his tracks. Maybe, he needs you to lead, ACTIVELY.

About this “I TRIED NOT TO GIVE HIM ADVICE. BEING WITH HIM WAS WRONG ENOUGH, I DIDN'T WANT TO SWAY HIM INTO ONE THING OR ANOTHER. REALLY NOT MY BUSINESS. THEN PART OF HIS PROBLEMS BECAME OUR A AND FALLING IN LOVE WITH ME”.
Did you do this because you didn’t want to feel more guilty if your advice led him further astray? Hmmmmm….. A no fault relationship…. I really do not believe, there are such things, Flygirl…. I think, when you make THAT emotional connection, well, there is really not a lot that is not on the table. I think you are fooling yourself, here.

I think, what happens, is exactly that; people “fall” in love. They don’t try to do it, not actively. Now, people you have affairs, that were “love affairs” and not just “se_x affairs”, have some emotional voids that they weren’t protective of. And, someone else, slipped in…..

About this “OBEYING THE "RULES" BUT GOD I MISS OUR CONVERSATIONS”. Wotcha going to do? Seems you are starved emotionally/se_xually. You said your husband could live like that forever. Can you?

About this “GOT THEM. COUCH TRICKS TOO!” How about shower tricks? Got any for there? Hahaha

“The deal is, is if you divorced (might be the pitiful thing to do for your husband), do you think he would stick around and be a decent dad?
NO WORRIES THERE... ABSOLUTELY HE WOULD. AND I WOULD WANT TO CONTINUE AN AMICABLE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IF AT ALL POSSIBLE”.
So, seems, that while you cannot have a functional marriage with him, you could have a functional divorce….

About this “SO WE DON'T ARGUE. HE WON'T ARGUE. HE ACQUIESCES EVERYTIME. IT'S NOT MUTUAL REALLY”.
This is really interesting. You are sorta in the relationship, yourself. Now, in my case, well, I am the more passive one. Cuz, my wife is in my face all the time (hahaha, but true). You talk of being SO IN CHARGE, but, with him, have been the passive one. Now, here, it says he is the passive one. Two passives, and there is not much life….

“NOW WE'RE AT A MEXICAN STANDOFF”.
But, he likes it here. You don’t. You don’t want a Mexican standoff. You want to force him to make SOME move…

“HE EVEN THREW AWAY ALL THE X MOVIES IN OUR HOUSE!!!! THREW THEM AWAY!!!!” Sheesh, you should have at least donated them to the salvation army (hahaha). Seems, weird, missionary only, but will watch po_rn. So, here, I will admit, to not knowing what is going on. Does he know that you do not come? Some women, well, it is hard to tell. Does he have se_x hang-ups?

About this “I CAN'T CHANGE IT. NOT MYSELF, NOT WITH OM, NOT WITH H NOW, IT'S MY FATE. I'VE ACCEPTED THAT”.
Flygirl, check out your computer. Seems you have a virus, CUZ NO WAY WOULD YOU EVER WRITE THIS! Se_x is a combination of brains and body parts. Now, I find this, a particularly interesting topic. Specifically, what it is, that a person finds erotic. Some people, get off on shoes (Flygirl, you got pumps? Hahaha). Now, weird, true. How, did THAT happen? That, their se_xuality got turned that direction. Fetishes are interesting. Now, I feel more sorry for your husband, than some guy with a women’s underwear fetish. Cuz, at least the latter, has some zeal to him.

Now, for you. Maybe, you need to experiment with some different things. I would bet that physically, you are fine. Now, you have made this into a mental block. Some of my suggestions, you need a guy for. But, others, not.

Fantasy works REAL well, cuz, you can do stuff there, that you would be too timid to do in real life (3-somes, whatever you find turns you on). True, most people try to tie their emotional self to their se_xual self, and make them work together. But, your se_xual self has her own mind, right? She (your se_xual self) has her own interests, and not ALL of them require constant reassurances of love throughout the se_x acts. Right? Knowing you the bit that I do, I would bet that they your se_xual interests are not mundane. Do you feel free to explore them, at least in fantasy?

Anyway, hope you are getting some sleep on the weekends. I know how early those mite games start….

Bye Bye

If you could have held off the PA, then you probably could still be friends. Was it worth it?
IN SOME WAYS YES. HE WAS NOT SOMEONE I COULD STAND TO BE "JUST FRIENDS" WITH ANYWAY. HE WOULD HAVE DRIVEN ME NUTS WITH HIS SELF-PITY ACT. THE WORLD IS DOING THIS TO ME... THE WORLD IS DOING THAT... GOD HATES ME... I DESERVE THIS... I'M A LOSER... (OF COURSE, I DIDN'T SEE THIS SIDE OF HIM UNTIL AFTER THE PA STARTED). IT WAS WORTH IT B/C IT GAVE ME SOME INSIGHT INTO THE INTIMACY SIDE OF A RELATIONSHIP THAT I HAVE NEVER HAD WITH MY H AND HAD FORGOTTEN EXISTED (OR BELIEVED I DIDN'T DESERVE SO I PUT IT OUT OF MY MIND). OM CONVINCED ME THAT I DO DESERVE IT, AND THAT I SHOULD HAVE IT, AND NOT SETTLE FOR LESS. THAT STICKS WITH ME TODAY AND I FOR THE FIRST TIME DO BELIEVE I DESERVE BETTER - FROM MY H OR SOMEONE ELSE BUT I DO DESERVE BETTER THAN WHAT I HAVE NOW, FROM ME AND FROM MY MATE.

H seems OVERLY passive about relationships. Maybe, he feels overwhelmed, and is frozen in his tracks. Maybe, he needs you to lead, actively.
BINGO (AGAIN), BUT MY CONFLICT IS THAT I DON'T WANT TO ANYMORE. DUE TO MY LACK OF FAITH THAT WE CAN REKINDLE ANYTHING OR THAT HE WILL DO HIS PART TO CHANGE, I'M NOT INCLINED TO CONTINUE TO TRY.

About this “I TRIED NOT TO GIVE HIM ADVICE. BEING WITH HIM WAS WRONG ENOUGH, I DIDN'T WANT TO SWAY HIM INTO ONE THING OR ANOTHER. REALLY NOT MY BUSINESS. THEN PART OF HIS PROBLEMS BECAME OUR A AND FALLING IN LOVE WITH ME”.
Did you do this because you didn’t want to feel more guilty if your advice led him further astray? Hmmmmm….. A no fault relationship…. I really do not believe, there are such things, MAYBE YOU MISUNDERSTAND. I'M NOT SAYING "NO FAULT"... WHAT I MEAN IS THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO COERCE HIM, ENTICE HIM, LEAD HIM INTO MAKING MAJOR MOVES IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE B/C I LED HIM TO BELIEVE HE WOULD BY DEFAULT BE WITH ME. I FELT GUILTY ENOUGH JUST WITH THE PA ALONE.

Wotcha going to do? Seems you are starved emotionally/se_xually. You said your husband could live like that forever. Can you?
NO. I SAY THAT, BUT I HAVE LIVED THAT WAY. FOR A VERY LONG TIME. NO, I DON'T WANT TO DO IT ANYMORE. BUT I AM SO FAR TOO DA_MN SCARED TO MAKE A MOVE IN EITHER DIRECTION SO I TOO WEAR CEMENT SHOES. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So, seems, that while you cannot have a functional marriage with him, you could have a functional divorce….
I WOULD LIKE TO THINK SO. IF WE SPLIT, PRETTY MUCH GUARANTEED HE WOULD STOP WORKING ON OPENING HIMSELF UP. SO HIS PASSIVITY WOULD MAKE IT EASY FOR ME TO MANAGE THINGS. IT'S WHY WE ALWAYS GOT ALONG SO WELL ON A SUPERFICIAL LEVEL BEFORE.

Does he know that you do not come? NOW HE DOES. SHAME ON ME I NEVER TOLD BEFORE. AND EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T FAKE IT, HE NEVER ASKED. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> EITHER HE WAS AFRAID OF THE ANSWER, OR JUST SO LONG AS HE DID...

Some women, well, it is hard to tell. Does he have se_x hang-ups? HE'S JUST DISTANT, IT'S JUST AN ACT. FROM WHAT I CAN TELL (WHICH ISN'T MUCH) HE ISN'T REAL KEEN ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN PLAIN VANILLA THOUGH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

About this “I CAN'T CHANGE IT. NOT MYSELF, NOT WITH OM, NOT WITH H NOW, IT'S MY FATE. I'VE ACCEPTED THAT”.
Flygirl, check out your computer. Seems you have a virus, CUZ NO WAY WOULD YOU EVER WRITE THIS! YOU WOULDN'T THINK... BUT I AM CONVINCED. NOTHING HAS WORKED. EVERYTHING HAS FAILED. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I DON'T HAVE IT IN ME. PHYSICALLY I AM FINE, BUT MENTALLY THERE IS A BARRIER THAT I CAN'T OVERCOME (NO PUN INTENDED).

Anyway, hope you are getting some sleep on the weekends. I know how early those mite games start….
HALLELUJAH, SPRING SEASON IS OVER! ACTUALLY, I REALLY MISS THE COACHING, AND THE KIDS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> BUUUUUUUUUUT... NOW I GET TO PLAY!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> IN THE FALL, THERE WON'T BE TIME FOR MY GAME. AND ACTUALLY I JUST GOT THROUGH PLAYING TONIGHT, SO I'M BEAT, TIME FOR BED. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ August 09, 2004, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>