Laura_Lee,

A word of advice: Why don't you do a little research over on the Recovery board and see what Flygirl was up to over there? I would say start with the Rocky Mountain High posts up until her last posts on Recovery.

Sunrise suggested she post on the Recovery Board but that won't wash with those who knew her, UNLESS she TRULY has interest in something other than cultivating attention and sympathy for her “miserable” lot in life.

She’s now in the Divorce/Divorcing forum using the same routine she pulled over in Recovery. She is suspicious her BS is trying to "execute" plan A over “on her” and starts a thread on her favorite topic (poor, put upon, me) which becomes controversial because you LL, did not like her being called on the INCONGRUITY of it all. (!)

This is a marriage recovery board and Plan A is a very important part of rebuilding a marriage. Only Flygirl could manipulate Plan A to make it sound like a negative action on the part of her spouse. (Well, maybe SNL could have done it too, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) Laura _Lee, why can’t you comprehend how completely twisted this is? You are being manipulated.

Narcissistic posters such as Flygirl take valuable time and thought away from those who really need the time and effort. That is probably the biggest problem with her presence on any of the MB boards. You will see that her posts are not any different today than when she first started. The theme of her posts is always ME, ME, ME)

She gives lip service to the advice given and posts the same self seeking essays over and over with the ONLY changes being what her incompetent BS has done wrong this time. He’s Plan Aing her now, God forbid!?!? I’d give good money to hear HIS side of the story that’s for sure.

I have had suspicions that Flygirl is a troll for a long time but I could just as easily conclude that she is just seeking attention. It really doesn’t seem to matter to her whether that attention is positive or negative, as long as she gets it.

THE PROBLEM NOW IS THAT HER POSTS HAVE CAUSED DIVISION BETWEEN SINCERE MEMBERS OF MB. I understand that you want to be helpful, Laura_Lee but you really need to evaluate just exactly what is that you are helping with. Do the research. KB

P.S. Aryn, I asked you once if you wanted to continue to be an angry, bitter, incorrigible woman who refuses to be placated. Think on this.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

knewbetter,

I can see why you wrote what you wrote, but you are off the mark. I think it was obvious that I battled SEVERE depression while trying to get through recovery. Suicidal depression. Have you ever been there? Do you know how it torments your mind and body? I battled my own feelings and what others were trying to help me do (b/c I felt my life was out of control). I couldn't do it at the time, so I stepped away.

I am here now, on different AD medication that is actually working some and in a different place now with my H than I was - just not in a reconciling place. Much has happened since I was on the recovery board, and I came here b/c I don't feel like I am (or want to be at this point) headed in that direction, truly, and that I am entering the realm of the DV process.

I am sorry you see this as manipulation. It just isn't. I may be a "recovery failure", unfortunately not all of us are able to turn things around. Some people do, some people just have insurmountable issues, irreconcilable differences. As much as we would all like to believe that "God brought us to the right person", life isn't that simple and this is why more than 50% of couples end up this way. I have lost my way and I am trying desperately to find it. I use those old posts every week to remind myself of all the good advice I was given before in recovery, and how I might apply it to my situation now. But I am a mother of 4 young kids, a high-ranking executive full time, PTA member, hockey player & coach, hockey mom, swim mom and many other things. Believe me, I don't have extra time to come out to some message board to waste other people's time (or mine). Enough said.

I can't stop anyone from DJ-ing others, but hopefully I can still get some good advice, and I have and I am thankful for it. As for the semantics debate in this thread, I think enough has been said to make both people's point and they should agree to disagree. I learned my lesson the hard way months ago about internet arguments!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

Laura and FlyGirl,

All I can say is that I wish there was a clap button on this darn board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have been following these threads in amazement on how people will go out of there way to attack someone else.

This doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Flygirl, you came here for support, it shouldn't matter why but you gave everyone here the respect of being honest with them. You have taken more abuse than others, whom are no longer here, could handle.

Some have attacked you for for being a WS but WS,BW whatever you want to call yourself(I left at my STBXW's request, does that make me a WBS)
I, for one will offer any support I can to you and anyone else that comes here for support.

Laura,
Well I don't know what to say.I'm sure those who know just a little about you know how wonderful of a person you are.
"Cheers" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, has anyone ever heard this one

If you don't have nothin nice to say then don't say nothin at all.

Maybe I'll add that to my sig.

WIWH

Can we then conclude that a murder is not a crime? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Nor cheating is a murder? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


For me, his cheating has murdered a part of me, definitely.
It’ll take a long long time that I can trust again… to any other man…
He killed those nice feelings I had, security, and respect for my own judgment of someone’s character…
I heard that raping causes similar traumas… kills a part of soul, too…

Flygirl… I limit my post/thinking about her just on these two threads…

I can feel her, her pain, her despair… because in her H I recognized my X (boy, I wanted so much to hurt him the same way, showing my love for ALL OTHER people but not for him... having A too, but, thanks God, I knew that A for revenge’s sake would just hurt me more… and, what a dark humor – If I had it, he’d react the same way as her H – "it’s OK, I forgive you!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> … meaning – who cares???)… and I very well know that feeling of betrayal (many kinds of it, not only As..), abandonment, his indifference, being alone with him, not allowed to get into his world… not asked for anything, not involved in any decision of his... neglected in any possible way… being BS too…

Yes, she’s WS, and I hope she already know that it wasn’t way out, and won’t repeat the same mistake in her future (cause, I deeply believe and it's been proved so many times) there is no happiness built on ruines of someone else's unhappiness)… but she’s – a victim too… of her escape, from one pain to the other… and I do hope she’ll find the way out of her vicious circle, to find her place on this earth she’d be happy and healthy, with her kids… hopefully one day with a man who will give her love she needs…

Good luck to all souls craving for love and respect and peace...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’d give good money to hear HIS side of the story that’s for sure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whenever I read here ANY story, I think the same: I’d like to hear the other side… !

But, usually, we don’t, so we never really know who is who…

Then I recall my X… when he speaks, honey and milk from his mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> … and, of course – everything is just my fault…

And we have to admit, (of course not accepting As as the way to deal with marital problems), that all of us quite contributed, this or the other way, to our problems, alienations, losing spouse’s love/passion… more or less… (me, of course – less <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Laura_Lee, Thank you for your reply. While I wouldn’t go so far as to call myself a Harley “disciple” I AM wholeheartedly in favor of MB principles. Let’s look at Harley’s definition of disrespectful judgments again. You quoted this in your post.

**HARLEY QUOTE: A disrespectful judgment is whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other.**

KB: We here on MB have a shared value system that includes protecting marriage and encouraging the rebuilding of marriages after they have been damaged by infidelity. It is well within the MB value system to educate “foggy” WSs. You seem to suggest it is not.

QUOTE: Are some of you trying to "help" Flygirl "gain proper perspective"... because it's just very challenging to feel empathy for someone who has engaged in behavior that you have personally been harmed by? Just asking the question... to see if it applies.

KB: It certainly does not apply to me as I am the WS. I was the instiller of harm myself.

QUOTE:I think calling someone "a troll" fits the definition of a disrespectful judgment.

KB: I did not call her a troll, I said that I had thought she was, based on what I was reading in her posts at the time over on the Recovery Board. Please do not put words in my mouth.

QUOTE: I think calling someone "a narcissist" fits the definition of a disrespectful judgment.

KB: Have you even read the posts? Do you have a better word? The word narcissism generally used, describes a self absorbed person. I did not say she was a clinical narcissist.

QUOTE: For example, could Nellie have said, "Flygirl, to me, having an affair was just short of murder."

KB: You misquoted Nellie originally and are now resurrecting this revised version. YOU are the one who came up with the word murder, NOT Nellie.

QUOTE: "Flygirl, I believe your husband must be experiencing incredible pain. I know I did. I really hope that you will find it in your heart to become more sensitive to his hurt and pain - even as you struggle with the hurt and pain that his actions, and indifference, have caused you. I wish you and your husband the best during this difficult season in your lives."

KB: Yes, this has been said before, many times by many different people. Wishing someone the best without helping them see how to get there is not helping them at all. Our goal here on MB is to strengthen marriages and rebuild those weakened by infidelity as Flygirl’s has.

QUOTE: My impression? Point blank in the face. Kind of like how knewbetter thinks is the way to "straighten out" Flygirl.

KB: It is not my intention to “straighten Flygirl out.” Flygirl does not need to hear from me anymore. I have tried and failed like everyone else on Recovery. It was my intention when posting to her to help her repair her marriage. I have always hoped for her change of heart towards her husband and while I have been very direct with her at times, she has been most gracious.

QUOTE:Respect means just step back... and let them be where they are at... even if it's in the middle of an A. Cause you know what? That's their choice.

KB: I posted to you because you seem to want to use the MB concepts of disrespectful judgments and love busters to suggest that we not correct foggy thinking and behavior. You used them to criticize posters who made honest attempts to get through to Flygirl.The above quote shows that you have an incomplete understanding of what the concepts are all about.

A recovered marriage is my hope for Aryn, but the sympathy she is getting once again, for her “terrible” situation is not helping her. Your relativism, Laura (as in, you believe all opinions are equally valid) and the idea that we shouldn’t “judge” one another’s behavior (even when it is anti-marriage behavior) simply doesn’t make sense from an MB standpoint.

Number one, on MB we are not going to condone affairs or the foggy thinking that accompanies them and number two, we will always (except in cases of drug addiction or abuse) encourage rebuilding. If someone is doing something wrong they need to be told, otherwise they might not know to correct it. It becomes anyone’s business once it is publicly posted contrary to what you have said.

Because this is a public forum a variety of opinions will be posted. It is up to the individual to take the advice or not. Flygirl has been fence sitting for a very long time. How are you helping by supporting this?

QUOTE: And, of course, if that doesn't work --- people can vote to give her the boot! Send her on back to the Recovery Board!!
They'll really let her have it over there! And, of course, knewbetter has "proof" that she deserves it!!!!!!

KB: She did take a beating over on Recovery for some specific reasons. Saying that I have “proof” as if I am trying to “prove” something is misleading. The posts are what they are, plain and simple.

If you are going to espouse MB principles Laura, you would be wise to try to understand them first. MB is not one big, happy family. It is a broken, hurting “family” and refusing to reset a “family member’s” broken bone because you don’t want to "hurt" them is not in their best interest in the long run.

QUOTE: knewbetter, bless you. Poor guy - surrounded by trolls! We're everywhere!! lol You handsome prince, you... maybe if we just had a kiss... we'd become princesses again!! lol

KB: LOL is right, ROFL is more like it as I am a FEMALE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If I tell you that you have shown a tendency in your posts to jump to conclusions would that be a DJ or an observation? No need to reply, I am done here. Lecture over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey Aryn, caught your post at the last minute. I wish you the best. Glad the meds are helping! Good luck, KB

.

Don't mean to hi-jack the thread but this really stuck out to me--and wanted clarification--

Nellie1 said--

--I would like to point out that my children ARE my equals. --

Nellie1, do your kids have a bed time? If so who set's that bedtime? Do you have a bedtime? If so do your kids set your bedtime?

Do your kids have chores they are supposed to do to? If so--who let's them know which chores they need to do?

Your children may be equal in terms of they are due equal respect because they are people--but I doubt they are truly equal with in the family unit--or your role of mother is moot--

knewbetter:

I think it is ironic that you find it necessary to come here on this "judging" thread and (disrespectfully) judge me. If memory serves, you were the ONLY ONE who did so on the recovery board. Look within yourself for the reason, it has nothing to do with me. Whether I am in a mental frame of mind to act on advice or not, it is all helpful at some point in very important ways. Personal attacks and inappropriate judging are not. Many people helped me there whether it showed or not, you were not one of them. Please let me be, I thank you in advance.

ThornedRose,

The original post on this subject implied that children should some how be treated differently from my "peers" on this board - my children are not lesser people. I am equally free to let my children or members of this board know when I disagree with their actions - the only difference is that sometimes my kids feel obligated to listen to me. My kids are also equally free to let me know when they disagree with me.

Knewbetter,

I think you did an excellent job of explaining MB's goals in your post. Thank you.

LL,

As you can see by my post count....I've been posting on this board for a long time. I've seen folks come and go and witnessed various attempts to control posting practices. All I can tell you....is it doesn't work. I wrote this piece a while back on emotional needs...but I think it applies here as well.

There are some public aspects and private aspects of this board. This a public forum that is privately owned. So while almost everyone is allowed to post here.....only MAJOR and consistent problems result in someone being asked to leave the site.

*expect some posters to rub you the wrong way...it's a big world and not everyone agrees or perceives things in the same light. Some people express those differences respectfully...some don't....you can't control it.

*communication styles are different....some posters are kind and tactful, some are direct or abrasive. Most are trying to help. The world and this forum are full of individuals, and like the world...you'll like some and dislike some.

*don't expect to be able to control or limit who posts on your threads....or even which way the thread goes...it's not realistic and will drive you crazy. If you want a certain poster to respond to you....put their name in the title, but that is never going insure that the rest of the posters can read and post at their will...just like you can.

*don't make assumptions about posters or situations without doing your homework and understand the HISTORY of a problem. It's easy to misunderstand posts if you see a response in the single context of one thread. Many posters here have been conversing for months or years and are commenting on more than is written in the thread in question.

*try not to take things personally...usually they aren't.

*if you must assume something...assume the best until proven otherwise....don't just react and lash out, but try asking questions and getting more information if something strikes you the wrong way.

*don't expect to get someone kicked off the site for being "mean" to you. It just does not happen. It takes alot to get banned from this site, so learning tolerance and detachment are essential to feeling good about your time here.

*only part of the responsibilty for feeling insulted lies in the disrespectful poster....the greatest part...is the responsibility of the listener. This isn't a marriage or friendship...or even real life...it's an anonymous message board where the majority of what each individual can realistically control is their own perception and reactions...not other people here.

*the best way to deal with someone who you feel is being unfair to you....is avoid them and not respond. You can notify the mods...but as I mentioned before...don't expect any serious reaction unless the attack is obscene or relentless over time. When you respond defensively or make judgements about others...expect more responses from the person you are trying to avoid.

*come here with an open mind....not to teach or judge but to LEARN and you will get the maximum benefit from this site. Different perspectives can open new avenues and opportunities if you check your ego at the door and realize we are all students of life and marriage.

*don't expect fairness, consideration, sympathy or sensitivity. This isn't a therapy office. Encourage those things....YES...but don't expect them because this forum is OPEN to all but the very distructive few who have blatantly misused it. People come here with bias, hurt, history etc. and the advice WILL be peppered with all the flavors of the people who inhabit it.

*if you are emotionally affected by the reponses you get on this board....it is not a safe place for you...consider your health and don't post here.

*when you habitually whine about your treatment here....most people will dismiss your grievances. Defend yourself in a respectful manner without alot of drama if you need to.

With all of that said....I urge everyone, to practice good communication skills and controlling LBs for your relationships in the real world. Bad habits that are practiced here in this anonymous place are not so easily compartmentalized that they won't spill into your marriage and real life relationships. The best way to be HEARD is to adjust your style to the audience, really listen, and communicate respectfully.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Peace be to you too, KB. I'm glad you are where you are. I'm jealous you are where you are. I can't wait to get to where you are (over the hump). Believe me, fence-sitting is painful, OUCH! But until I'm 100% sure I can fall to one side or the other, get up, dust myself off and be happy about the side I'm on, I will continue to straddle. I don't want to sell anything, or anyone short including myself.

I think anyone in a sad situation that leads them to the recovery board is just starting the bumps in the road. And everyone's road is different. Some can do it with people help, some need med, some need psych and not everyone (ie... I) handle things in the face of failure with grace. But I do know how to apologize when I need to, and I'm not ashamed to do it. I'm sorry for the way our posting relationship developed and I truly do wish you the best. If you have gotten through an A, and successfully recovered your M, I am nothing but in awe.

Aryn, As I told Laura, you've always been gracious. You took everyone's 2 x 4's with class, girl! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Do you remember when I told you that I wished we were talking face to face ((or phone, I can't remember) so that you could really see or hear how I intended tenderness and good will even though the words were SO hard to hear? Words alone on a screen are so stark!

You know that I wish you and your family the very best, whichever way you go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> May peace and contentment bless you, Aryn! Love, KB

And please tell Pepperband ditto goes for her. She and her infinite wisdom mean the world to me (even if it didn't appear so at the time). I miss it, but I have plenty of the old to fall back on.

Laura Lee quote:

I'm going to tell you the honest truth. A V.P. in a corporation I used to work for (I was an Executive Secretary to the Chairman/President.) had an A with someone close to me personally. I went into his office when he was in a closed door private meeting with the President & Chairman. I looked him square in the eyes and told him there was no excuse for what he was doing, he would never be accepted in this relationship, he had no business in an A with this person close to me (not close to me in a romantic sense, BTW, - that's not what I mean)... and he better go back to his W.

Then I left them in the meeting I had interruptd... and went home.

I was told I could have been fired. I replied that I had made a choice knowing that before choosing to make my remarks.

I wasn't fired.

He broke up with the OW. He went back to his W.

I was highly respected by those who know my values... for having that level chutzpah... and integrity.

Did that VP ever like me? No. But, still, I did him a favor, really. If everyone was that clear... and if society still stood up and said, "That's wrong! What you are doing is wrong!"


Excuse me????? What is this Im reading?

sunrise1,

Am I interpreting your post correctly? - was that anecdote a quote from one of Laura_Lee's posts?

Believe it or not...posted on May 28 right smack in the middle of her blasting you. Page 2 of the "This Just In " post.

And I didnt quite copy all of her post. It is worth a read

Come on, I REALLY hate to see this stuff. This isn't what this board is about - pi$$ing contests.

Fact: we ALL judge others from time to time... it's human nature to do so. But if we can bring it to each other's attention when it's disrespectful or hurtful, and move on, then life would be so much more pleasant and people would have so much more respect for each other.

Remember, we're all here trying to help ourselves, and each other... right?!? Or not???

I do believe that some people are missing the point. As flygirl pointed out, everyone does their own judging, and Laura Lee has also said this.

However, this thread was started because the disrepectful judgemets toward flygirls did not stop even after she took the hits and basically asked for it to stop.

She did not come here for people to tell her she is wrong. She came her for support in a tough time from others who are or have gone though it.

I could quote people all day and find dirt on all of you but I have better things to do with my time

Sorry sunrise but I really dont think this is necesary

Grow up people!!!!!!!!

WIWH