Thanks WMWB???. My WW didn't walk out on the kids, she took them with her. They were big time unhappy. I worried about grades slipping but they seem to be handling this OK. My oldest is a straight A student, and in the Gifted and Talented Program. He was tested and scored in the 99.9th percentile in reading in the nation, math was his low score and that was 96th percentile. The younger one has cerebral palsey, I think of the 2 he is the smart one but getting it out of him can be difficult. If you are doing spelling and he wants to talk about Star Wars, get ready to spell Luke Skywalker. He is also been very perceptive. We were playing outside one day before D-Day and he said "I think Mom has a boyfriend and thats why she left you.". That was followed with something like "Are we having chicken tonight?". This whole load of crap hasn't affected him much, he seems to think its an adventure. The only time he gets upset is when he sees his brother upset. The older one knows way more about what is going on than a 9 year old should. I have been very careful about what I say in front of them and have even defended her at first. I'm very proud of both of them.
My parents were divorced too. No A that I know of but they fought all the time and them seperating was a relief. I lived with my dads parents while the divorce was being settled and was happy. My mother got custody and I was going to have to go live with her but really didn't want to. She was killed in a car wreck before I had to make the move and to this day I have not shed a tear for her. I was 9 at the time. One of my coworkers that knows the story says a psychologist could make a career out of me. I think I'm OK.
WW's background- her parents were together til her dad died about 4 years ago. Her mother cheated on him (the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree) but I never heard the D word mentioned.
I usualy do fairly well at being civil to WW but sometimes I think she says or does things intended to set me off. I think its intentional so she can have something to make me look bad in Court, right now she doesn't have anything real, just her alien imagination and lies that she can't prove.

WMWB is right, plus, fighting her is EXACTLY what she wants. Her conscience is killing her. She needs a fight. She needs something to justify her affair, to justify breaking her husband's heart and her marriage vows. If she gets you to be nasty towards her, then BOOM she has the justification (in her mind). Her subconscience tells her, "see how's he's treating you? see how mean he is? don't feel bad about what you did. he deserves it." If you are nice to her, she has no justification. She struggles more. I know it's hard, boy do I know, and I will be lying if I say I have perfected it. The other day my wife kept on attacking me. I tried to be kind and polite, then SNAP I went off. She said, "that hurt" and hung up. But it was exactly what she needed. Now she can say, "good. I hope he does hurt. He hurt me". If she wants a war, passively give her one. But keep the rage to a minimum.

I am currently working very hard on being a proactive person opposed to a reactive person. This situation is ideal for this. Use this situation to perfect your character.

I understand the concept. Following it is pretty tough. I have never been good at letting things slide when they are wrong, I want to correct them, right now.

DF:

I agree completely with Dead. If you want to get maximum benefit out of your D, then saty cool.

I had to learn very quickley with my now X-WW that the less I said and the cooler I was the more perplexed she became.

Even now almost six months after the divorce she still tries to "bait me" into silly arguments that have nothing to do with our sons. I have tthem by the by.

Do what is in the best interests of what remains of the family and move on, if that what you want to do.

YOu will only prolong the pain.

Best to You !

I don't gamble any way but I would sure hate to play poker against you guys that can stay cool and smooth when then one that you love is sh!tt!ng all over you.

Ah Young Grasshopper! (Said in my best Kung Fu accent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

You have much to learn. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand the concept. Following it is pretty tough. I have never been good at letting things slide when they are wrong, I want to correct them, right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know one is saying "let is slide" Young Grasshopper. What they are saying is "win the war" not the battle.

If you are serious about bringing this to its best resolution, then play to win. That is not the same as "letting it slide", it is being calm, cool, collecting data, treating your children well, getting the BEST LAWYER, and truely plan A'ing or plan B'ing at the same time.

But, do it all with the serenity of an assassin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If you are a good and loving man, the BE a good and loving man, all the while protecting your children and yourself. If you get a chance to save the marriage to do it. If you get a chance to take OM down, do it. Expose the A to OM's family and W. Go back and get more phone bill's. But, do it with serenity, calmness, and clarity of thought. DO NOT ENGAGE HER IN LB's. Do NOT engage her at all. Take all of you buttons and put them in your pocket. You have a war to win DJ, don't engage in the battle.

If you get this mindset, you will see why Harley recommends plan A and plan B. He plays to win and so should you, even if you end up defining winning as a D.

In these cases "doing something" usually defined as responding to the WS, is actually doing nothing but feeding their justifications which is why all here are commend you change your tactics. To truely "do something", you need avoid responding to her, lay out your plans and execute them, while plan A and B seem passive, they are not. Why? Because the WS expects a "fight" but not the one you put up with plan A or B. It rattles them.

So be your children's best friend, no arguing.
Be your own best friend: no arguing.
Be your lawyers best friend: no arguing.

Do you see what everyone is telling you "young Grasshopper"? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

Hey DJ, how are you this morning? When I said that your kids are angry about her walking out… I was more referring to her walking out on the family…. Not literally walking out and leaving your kids. My WW likes to split hairs in order to feel better about herself by saying that she only walked out on me… not the kids. I usually correct her by saying that “No, in fact you walked out on their family. You put this @sshole ahead of your childrens family life and their well being.” Then I usually end it in true LB fashion by calling her (in my calmest voice possible) the mother of the year. It makes her blood boil… which I know is counterproductive, but still sort of fun nonetheless.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong> I understand the concept. Following it is pretty tough. I have never been good at letting things slide when they are wrong, I want to correct them, right now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A famous man once said (and I don’t recall who it was) that you can be married or you can be right. It sounds like you tend to opt for being right. I do the same thing… it is one of those pesky male intuitions like refusing to admit when we are lost… or that we can’t even refold the damn map!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> You just have to force your self to act in a truly counter-intuitive manner. For me, nearly all of the Harley doctrine was counter-intuitive… it goes against most of your basic male instincts to fight and destroy that which causes you pain. Instead, you force restraint on yourself all the while maintaining the exposure to the source of the pain. It’s sort of like driving a nail thru your own hand…one swing of the hammer at a time and not being able to even curse while doing it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

For me, realizing that it doesn’t matter how right I am or how wrong WW is… there is literally NOTHING I can do to convince her of that being the case. Anytime I make any headway in proving my point (whatever that may be) she engages in personal attacks, or changes the subject, or just hangs up. You can’t win with them…you can’t deal rationally with irrational people… it is like mixing oil and water, you can’t do it. So, why bother? Why put forth the energy? Why even put yourself in the spot of having to deal with the aggravation of it? When you know you are right, gather the appropriate documentation and shelf it. If it comes up again, you can nail her with the proof…generally this happens in a hearing or mediation, which makes it doubly satisfying!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> It’s nice to have 2 or 3 other people listen to WW make some outrageous claim then drop the proof in front of her like a ton of bricks and watch her try to squirm her way thru an excuse while all staring at her can see it for what it is. I’ve had this luxury a couple of times.

For now though, don’t engage… just let the crap role off your back. It feels like you are doing nothing, but it will confound your WW and drive her nuts. Just sit back and watch.

know what I did to vent my anger during all of this?
I started studying Tai-Chi... the REAL Tai-Chi, that is... not this exercise crap you see everywhere... like... the fighting form Jet Li uses in all those movies of his.
I studied Tai-Chi, and used it on my room-mate during my separation. She was a long-time friend of my wife, and a black-belt instructor in Taekwon Do.
We had a few sparring matches... one of which, lasted a full 45 minutes.
I plan on pursuing further training... it taught me a lot of discipline, and helped to relieve frustration. Dynamic tension exercises helped, too. That vents anger, and builds muscles. Shouting is good, too. Crank the music up really loud, and just scream. The angrier the music, the better you feel afterwards. My personal choice was usually Project 86, Avenged Sevenfold, and Ill Nino.
Now, I have a car again... so, when I'm pissed, I can get on the freeway, and run. Loud music, and shouting are not an option at my in-laws' house... and, honorable Jen is 1500 miles away... so, no fighting. Racing is what I always used before to rid myself of antipathy... and, I find that it works the best.

My point? There are a lot of ways to feel better. The worst thing for you is sinking down to her level and hurting someone you took sacred vows to love, respect, defend, cherish, and protect.
You're a father. Do you really want to set the example for your sons that it's ok to treat a woman that way? Even if she deserves it... is it really worth the further damage to your lives?
If you feel you must divorce, then do so... though, I would recommend a better solution. But, please... as one father to another... let's commit to eachother right now to not allow this ugly divorce trend to be passed on to yet another generation. Let's make a difference in the world.

Lastly... pride is adouble-edged sword. On the one hand, a man needs a certain ammount of it. On the other... too much can destroy you.
Yeah... it's a major blow to the ego, and self-image to know that another man is treading on the most sacred thing a wife shares with her husband. I mean... that's OUR territory. It hurts to know that someone else knows what she feels like, and all that. It bothers, pesters, and causes anguish.
Especially when we never betrayed them.
It sucks. That's a fact. I can't tell you lies by saying that it'll be ok someday... cuz, it won't. It will always hurt.
And, yeah... the ones who interfered don't deserve to live. They deserve to die at our hands. They are miserable, dispicable wastes of life that deserve to be ended.
But, think about this... having too much pride, letting it get the better of one, and attempting to act on it... that's what got Lucifer kicked out of Heaven. Do you think he considers himself to have acted in wisdom, and right?
Not saying we're evil, or anything... just an extreme example.
I think you're a good man.... your wife probably does, too.

peace, love, and tight corners...
-Jarod Wynde

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Jarod_Wynde ]</small>

Thanks guys.
JL: I know what you mean about winning the war not the battle. I just don't see how anybody wins here except WW. She will get what she wants, as usual, the DV, custodial parent, child support, etc. She has been going around the local elementary school and quoted as saying how wonderful DV is. You get every other weekend off and all this child support. What set me off this weekend started middle of last week. She had been letting me have the kids more or less every Wednesday night from when school was out til back to school Thursday a.m. in addition to my every other weekend provided by our temporary order. I have the kids for the first six weeks of summer vacation, she gets every other weekend, and I only have to pay 1/2 the regular amount of child support when I have them for a week or more. By email she asked to have them from noon Wednesdays to noon Thursdays during my 6 weeks. I reminded her that that was more than what she had been giving me but that I would agree to it if she would give me something in writing that it was extra visitation for her at her request and that I would not be held responsible for more than 1/2 the regular amount of child support as soecified in the temporary order. I got a call from her Friday and she said that she had talked to her attorney and he said that we couldn't change the order, only the judge could so I wasn't going to get anything in writing. I told Her I wasn't wanting to change the order but get it in writing that I would not be responsible for extra payment to allow her to have extra visitation at her request. She said I would be getting nothing in writing. I told her she wasn't getting the kids as she requested. I will not pay her to let her have extra visitation. She called Saturday night from OMs house and said she wanted to be clear on the Wednesday thing, I was not going to let her have the kids because I didn't want to pay extra child support. I told her that is correct. Then she said, real snippy, "Well now we know where your priorities are.". I just said, "OK. Have fun with OM." (is that an LB on my part) and hung up. She has cheated and lied for years, torn our family apart, and destroyed our marriage to be with OM and she has the gall to question my priorities when all I did was fail to meet some of her ENs that I didn't even know she had. I had been leaning towards trying to get things back together but this set me off where I didn't sleep much for the next couple of nights added to knowing she was with OM (which still knots my stomach). Then I got on here Monday a.m. and started this thread ready to throw in the towel. Cooler heads have calmed me down, except I still seem to be rambling on. I would like to be able to be calm and cool "with the serenity of an assassin" but I feel like I am fighting a war I can't possibly win and that includes even if the aliens turn her brain loose and we work things out and start over. So yes, I understand what everyone is telling me but I guess I can't see the forest because all those trees are in the way.


WMWB???: I get the making her blood boil part being fun (I occasionally get the chance and sometimes take advantage) and calmly calling her mother of the year being a LB. Isn't pointing out, even though its true, that she walked out on the family and put the @sshole ahead of her childrens family life and well being a LB too? Im not trying to be a smart@ss, I'm really asking. It looks to me like it would be a LB but it is the facts.
Forcing restraint while maintaining the exposure to the source of the pain. Geeeez, isn't there a harder way to make this work?
I would love to gather the facts and surprise her at a hearing, if nothing else just to see the look on her face, it ain't gonna happen. Here we have Interogatories and disclosure. I had never heard of Interogatories before my attorney sent me the first set. They are a list of questions that I have to answer that have ranged from what is your name to list every credit card you have had in the last five years and provide statements and receipts. There can be up to 100 questions at a time, so far I have only had 2 sets for a total of about 130 questions. WW gets them too, hers and mine both had questions like have you made any out of town trips since seperation, if so where and with who; have you had sexual intercourse with anyone other than your spouse during the marriage; has anyone other than family stayed overnight at your residence since seperation; etc. Between these and disclosure WW will get a look at all the cards in my hand and have time to prepare and do damage controll. I hope my attorney has a trick up his sleeve that he isn't telling me about, otherwise WW could admit that she slept with a 100 guys and still get custody. It proves she is a bad wife but not a bad mother. I have very little to fight with as far as her being a bad mother. I don't know of anything she has against me as a father but the mother gets the kids. I have been told our judge does not do joint custody. There is no legally set age that the kids can pick who they want to live with but my oldest is supposed to be at the lower limit.
I haven't been engaging for awhile. Any contact I have had with her for the last couple of weeks has been initiated by her and I plan to keep it that way and avoid contact initiated by her if possible. I think she may be using the stay calm and cool to confound and drive the other person nuts tactic against me. For the most part she just seems so damn happy.

JW: I have a few things to make me feel better, stuff to take my mind of the crap so I don't dwell on it constantly and feel sorry for myself. Took my oldest and one of his friends fishing this weekend and didn't think of the WW and her betrayal for awhile. It was fun.
I can't make the committment to stop the ugly D trend, the hurt is so bad I don't know that I have recovery in me. I have told my kids that not all women are like this and that there are some good ones out there. The youngest thinks they all have cooties, the oldest may have some issues and may need somme IC himself, I'm watching out for that.
I don't wish death by my own hands on the OM but wouldn't be too sad if he was no longer sucking air either. I do hope to get some "restitution" someday and if that would get me kicked out of heaven, I have probably pulled enough other crap that I'm not getting in anyway.

Sorry this is so long but I fell behind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong> WMWB???: I get the making her blood boil part being fun (I occasionally get the chance and sometimes take advantage) and calmly calling her mother of the year being a LB. Isn't pointing out, even though its true, that she walked out on the family and put the @sshole ahead of her childrens family life and well being a LB too? Im not trying to be a smart@ss, I'm really asking. It looks to me like it would be a LB but it is the facts.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah… big time LB… huge in fact. But sometimes one just doesn’t give a sh*t anymore, ya know!?!?

I get the same crap about my priorities, about money, about everything. In fact just Saturday… this fight we had about my son’s birthday and me letting her take the kids for a few hours on my Sunday… I was told repeatedly that this wasn’t about ME… it is about our son and his birthday. I was told that because I wanted them to come home to sleep after the party, that I was a selfish @sshole and that I was always making everything about me. When in fact, it was out of the goodness of my heart that I let her take them on my day. I could have just as easily said “No, do it Tuesday… what does it matter if you have his party the day before or the day after…???” I would have been perfectly justified in doing just that… but no, I try to be nice… I give an inch and she demands a mile. Par for the course I guess.

Don’t let it fool you, it is just her way of making her feel like the “good parent” and pacifying her guilt. It is B as in B and S and in S… total Bullsh*t! Don’t fall for it. Believe me, I can understand the anger. My wife has done some pretty unimaginable stuff to try and take my kids away from me. It makes you so mad that not only is she walking out on her vows, she is ruining a family, and trying to take you away from your kids… who the hell do these WW’s think they are anyway…???? My WW seems to relish the idea of being a part time parent while it totally kills me… I’m fighting like hell for custody, I don’t want a dime from her… just a loving and stable and consistent environment for my kids.

I don’t know if I’m the only one, but my WW seems to have totally abandoned the methods and values of how we were raising and parenting our kids. Drives me nuts… they are 4-1/2 and 3 and she try’s to be their buddy rather than their mom… the net effect is they are little animals for like the first 24 to 36 hours that I have them before they remember the rules and their manners. That can’t be at all good for them. I try to discuss it with her and get nothing but an earful about how she never wanted to parent that way but I made her… I was so controlling and emotionally abusive… Huh!?!?!? I didn’t know that having a discussion about how we were going to do this, going over pros and cons and being consistent in the approach was controlling and emotionally abusive to my W…?!?!? It is all crap…fog… aliens… call it what you will. Don’t buy into it, just trust your self.

And I know how crazy it makes you feel… whether you want to fight to save the marriage or expedite the divorce… you HAVE to put up the fight of your life for those kids. It isn’t about money or revenge or anything like that… it is about being a good dad. You don’t want your kids developing her morals and values…

Divorce is a dirty, dirty business… with respect to your kids, you need to play to win.

Amen on the sometimes not giving a [censored] any more. I was tempted to just settle with her at first, we have agreed on property settlement and my attorney says that the every other weekend custody plan is more than likely what I will end up with anyway. We could have had this over with in March and saved a bunch of money(freaked WW out that it could happen that fast, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what does that mean?) but my dad, a 2 time veteran of D wars, told me that if nothing else I needed to be able to show my kids that I fought for them. Funny, the older I get the more the old man makes sense. So the fight is on. And it ain't gonna be pretty, it ain't gonna be nice, and we can't be friends and enemies at the same time. When the smoke clears and the fight is over it will probably be a long time before the animosty is gone.

I must confess that I have read only one or two posts on this thread but I'm going to put my two cents worth in, anyway.

Yes the LoveBusting matters.

It may not matter in what she thinks of you.

It may not matter in terms of the settlement.

It may not matter in the outcome of anything.

But it matters in terms of what kind of man you show yourself to be.

If you LB all over the place, you show her just how right she was to replace you.

If you are courteous, this does not preclude being firm, then you emerge the 'bigger/better person'. And, when you put your head on your pillow at night, you will know you have done the right thing.

The counselor is a safer place...this is a safer place for spewing venom.

Be sure your children see you model civility. You can stick to your guns in the negotiations. But be civil. You can stand firm on the things that matter to you. But be civil.

You have nothing to gain by LoveBusting.

And you have only your own reputation to tarnish.

I would second that, cinderella.

My H "says" he wants to work things out with me, but hasn't made one serious attempt to meet my EN's, and in fact is LBing all over the place by continuing to do the things that put us in turmoil in the first place (lying, making joint decisions unilaterally, avoidance, sidestepping issues, not sharing emotions, wanting se x but not doing what I asked him to do so I could give it).
This alone has thrown me off the fence on the side of wanting DV. This alone has brought me from "love but not in love" to completely checking out of the deal.

Let me provide another perspective as the child of a nasty nasty parental divorce. If you love your kids, DON'T. IF YOU LOVE YOUR KIDS, DO NOT. PUT IT ASIDE. YOU WILL DO DAMAGE TO THEM THAT COULD LAST A LIFETIME AND IN SOME CASES MAY BE IRREPARABLE. Don't. Make it as peaceful as you can stand to make it, keep the kids OUT of the middle and OUT of court. My parents DV ruined my childhood. Ruined it. And to some degree, the remnants are still damaging my life.

It takes two to fight, just don't do it. Find a way to amicably get through this even if you HATE HER GUTS. Kids just can't understand how parents who once "loved" enough to create them now hate each other, and it is heartbreaking, life altering.

Best to you, kill her with kindness, the result will be the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong> JW: I have a few things to make me feel better, stuff to take my mind of the crap so I don't dwell on it constantly and feel sorry for myself. Took my oldest and one of his friends fishing this weekend and didn't think of the WW and her betrayal for awhile. It was fun.
I can't make the committment to stop the ugly D trend, the hurt is so bad I don't know that I have recovery in me. I have told my kids that not all women are like this and that there are some good ones out there. The youngest thinks they all have cooties, the oldest may have some issues and may need somme IC himself, I'm watching out for that.
I don't wish death by my own hands on the OM but wouldn't be too sad if he was no longer sucking air either. I do hope to get some "restitution" someday and if that would get me kicked out of heaven, I have probably pulled enough other crap that I'm not getting in anyway.

Sorry this is so long but I fell behind. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wasn't saying to stop it with you... your wife may very well deserve what's happening to her. If so... break her off, and make sure she feels the hurt for a long time.
What I meant was... make sure that your sons know how to choose the right woman the first time around. Raise them to judge character before giving thier hearts away. Raise them to be honorable, and strong. Raise them to have resolute, determination, and ambition. And, above all... teach them the value of compassion, and persistence.

I'm feeling what you're saying on the rest of that post, though. Just realize that anything I've said to you, or ever will say to you, is not an attack. I've been through this crap, too. I'm on your side... but, I also wanted to give you a little perspective. You're the only human being alive that knows what the right path for your life is. Follow it... but, make sure it's the right one.

peace, love, and tight corners...
-Jarod

DJ, Man, I am sorry that you have to go through this. But you are a bigger man than me. I would not dare answer the phone if I saw her calling from her lover's house. What!?! I would tell her point blank, I do not respond when I see that number. But maybe you don't have caller ID. Your wife is bold.

As far as discovery goes, here is your chance to get all that info. you need. Use this opportunity. Dig deep into your mind and think of what you can get from her to help your case and even get your children. I read of one case where the wife had to turn over her laptap because the husband said that there was proof on her hard drive (emails) that would prove her adultery. The judge ordered her to give up her laptop. For my case, we asked for all correspondence between her and "Randy Holloway". Document production and the interrogatories, even the request for admissions you can get the info. you need. Start planning now.

C: I didn't realize it at the time I started this but I guess I just needed to vent. Cooler heads here have brought me back from where ever I wandered off too. I don't think I LBed too badly with my WW as much as I stood my ground and didn't give in to her, something she hasn't seen often in the last 22 years.

FG13: I have to admit that when I saw on your signature line that you are/ were a WW my hackles went up and I heard this growling noise coming from deep inside. Then I read closer and saw your BH was a WH twice. I can't imagine the turmoil your family has been through. I guess its a miracle you guys haven't killed each other. I appreciate your perspective and hope everything works out for the best, whatever that may be, for you and your family.
My parents DVed when I was the same age as my oldest. I hear it was a nasty DV but I have no interest in getting the court record to see what actually happened.They fought all the time and it was a relief to get them away from each other. My childhood wasn't ruined because of it and I doubt that had anything to do with the way my parents conducted themselves, its just the way I thought of it myself.
When this storm started, I defended WW when the kids said something against her. I don't do that much anymore as I think they are intitled to their feelings. Just last night I told both of them that I still love their mother, I just don't like what she is doing now. They have been kept out of the line of fire I know by me and I think by WW for the most part. She has told them she went on "a date" with OM and showed them his picture. He calls and talks to them when they answer the phone before she does and has been talking to her after they have gone to bed and asked to talk to them and she gives them phone. I'm not allowed to call them after bedtime. Both are very unhappy with their mother.

JW:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wasn't saying to stop it with you... your wife may very well deserve what's happening to her. If so... break her off, and make sure she feels the hurt for a long time.
What I meant was... make sure that your sons know how to choose the right woman the first time around. Raise them to judge character before giving thier hearts away. Raise them to be honorable, and strong. Raise them to have resolute, determination, and ambition. And, above all... teach them the value of compassion, and persistence.

I'm feeling what you're saying on the rest of that post, though. Just realize that anything I've said to you, or ever will say to you, is not an attack. I've been through this crap, too. I'm on your side... but, I also wanted to give you a little perspective. You're the only human being alive that knows what the right path for your life is. Follow it... but, make sure it's the right one.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, Ok. I thought you meant a commitment to not DV myself. And I thought you were nuts. Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think you were attacking, just crazy. Now I still don't think you are attacking and you probably have it together pretty good. I have talked to my kids about choosing a mate, its a little early yet but I will continue to do so. As far as me choosing the right path for myself, I may be in deep [censored] because I don't know.

DTIA: I do have caller ID and have that number saved. I have passed the word to everyone in my house that any calls from OMs numbers will not be answered.
I have tried to get my attorney to get my WW's computer. He doesn't seem interested because she has already admitted her A through her attorney to us. Since my WW works for the public school and OM and I are state employees, all our work computers are subject to Freedom of Information.
I have filed 2 on WW and 1 on OM and didn't get squat. A little from WW and her family planning her move out and a little from WW and OM planning a rendevous that includeed WW's boss post D-Day. Since she is admitting that she is having an A, it doesn't make any difference as far as the DV. I am still digging and if I can put them together before 12/01/03, when OM was at our school on official business, I have been told that it would be an extreme conflict of interest and OM could lose his job. Paybacks are a b!tch.

I talked to WW last night at they ballpark. Gave her a hug and apologized for being less than cordial on the phone. Told her I love her and and still want to work things out but that we can't as long as she is seeing OM. No LBs, no BS. She has lost a bunch of weight and looks like crap, ihope this is caused by stress from what she is doing. I think she is wondering what the hell is going on. She didn't say she wants to work things out but didn't say no to either. Time for me to pull away again. Really don't know if I want to work things out and go to recovery or DV but trying to keep the option for myself.

Hey there DJ (and others), good morning. Glad to hear you had a decent interaction with your wife. That is good news. My WW is still stewing over the birthday fight I think… she has the kids answer when I call and just hangs up without saying a word when they are done talking. Oh well.

I can understand you not wanting to defend your wife and her actions to your kids when they say something about her, but they still need to be respectful of her as their mother. I hope you aren’t letting that slide because of the circumstances… I also tell my kids that I love and care about their mom very much, and I really miss her allot. They usually nod and tell me they know. My kids even started saying a “special prayer for mom” (my 3 year olds words) at night after our other prayers are done. I asked them once if they say that prayer at mommy’s place. The answer I got from my 4-1/2 year old was “No, mommy doesn’t like us saying prayers. She just wants us to be quiet.” Suffice to say, that got my dander up a bit… then it made me think, hmmmmmm…a little guilt maybe?????

D2IA,

So your guy is named Rand Halloway, eh!?!? Mine is named Tom LaClare….another dirt bag sounding name if you ask me. I went down to the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension to run his name thru their data base in an attempt to find out his criminal past. Turns out he has a violent criminal assault conviction for smacking around his XW about 5 years ago. I was told that the only way I could keep him away from the kids was if he could be deemed a threat to them. Since it was over 5 years old though, it didn’t count. It just drives me nuts that there is nothing I can do to keep my kids away from this dirt bag who tore apart their family…. Drives me absolutely nuts.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back???:
<strong> So your guy is named Rand Halloway, eh!?!? Mine is named Tom LaClare….another dirt bag sounding name if you ask me. I went down to the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension to run his name thru their data base in an attempt to find out his criminal past. Turns out he has a violent criminal assault conviction for smacking around his XW about 5 years ago. I was told that the only way I could keep him away from the kids was if he could be deemed a threat to them. Since it was over 5 years old though, it didn’t count. It just drives me nuts that there is nothing I can do to keep my kids away from this dirt bag who tore apart their family…. Drives me absolutely nuts. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So... it's socially acceptable to share names, and stuff on here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Look... I understand your frustration at these men, because I've been where you guys are. I can be pretty vindictive, myself... and these [censored] deserve any negative energy, and harm or misfortune that comes their way.
But, honestly... we don't need this on the board. If we wanna make a 'list of names' so to speak... I'll be happy to start up a Livejournal.com account, and link a few of us BH's to it, so we can vent about the spineless cowards who tried to destroy our families. But, this is not the place to do so.
We have a right to be angry, and they deserve the negative thoughts... but, this board is here to fix marriages... not b*tch about the OM in a venomous manner like that.

WMWB???- I'm pretty careful about what the kids hear. I tell them I still love their mother, I just don't like what she is doing. They never hear any of the venting but I'm sure they know I'm not happy and have a good idea why.
Your WW won't let the kids say bedtime prayers? Has her mind been abducted by aliens or the devil?

JW- Point taken. Not neccesarily agreed with 100% but taken. Maybe we don't need to plot too much but the Divorced/ Divorcing Forum looks to me like its here to help those that marriages might not be fixable. We gotta vent somewhere...........

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong>Your WW won't let the kids say bedtime prayers? Has her mind been abducted by aliens or the devil? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey DJ, how are you today? The jury is still out as to who (or what) is holding the lien on her mind… I’m leaning towards Satan herself (On a bit of a side note, I thought it VERY interesting that Mel Gibson portrayed the devil as a woman in the Passion… maybe he knows something we all don’t…). Honestly though I think it is guilt. My kids have said the same prayers since they were old enough to talk. We usually start out with a prayer then say our “God bless-es” which include mommy and daddy… along with the rest of both sides of the kids family. I think she just feels an overwhelming guilt when they kids say prayers that include her and I as a family. I have never confronted her on this, as she will surely deny it to the hilt, but I believe my kids.


JW,

I understand your point, yet allow me to explain my view on things a bit. First off, while I agree that the listing of names is perhaps a little inappropriate and underhanded (particularly placing judgment based on name alone), clearly it is a judgment call at best. Since it is all true, my claims of his actions are not slanderous or libelous in nature… perhaps morally giving his name here is in a bit of a gray spot… but perfectly legal nonetheless. Just for the record though, I agree that listing names is not someplace this public forum ought to go and I regret putting it up there. Now, as for the information about me checking into his criminal past that is a different story. First off, I offer the details of what I have been told and the steps I took along with the results (or lack there of) that I got as an example for others here who share my situation and frustration with respect to the WS’s exposure of minor children to the OP… especially since we are STILL MARRIED!!!!! Secondly, the information I found out about this @sshole and his criminal history is public information… which is why anyone can walk in off the street and punch in this guys name, gender, and birth date and find what I found. In that respect I don’t think the info I provided was inappropriate.

Maybe it is just my opinion here, but I see the D&D forum as a place to help one another out with the issue pertaining to divorce… as opposed to the other boards that tend to help with fixing the marriage. I would think that once someone decides that this board is the place they belong… the divorce is pretty much out of their hands. For me, I didn’t choose to get divorced. I made a conscious decision to wait 2 years for her to come around. However, being that Minnesota is a “no fault” state, I don’t get a choice in the matter. The way my attorney put it to me was… it takes two to form a marriage and only one to end it. As such, my focus has shifted from trying to save the marriage to that of doing the best for my kids. There are specific battles that need to be fought a certain way to be successful. Some I have lost and some I have won. One such battle is that of keeping my WW from parading her @sshole boyfriend around my 3 and 4 year old kids. I lost that battle… partly because I didn’t fight it properly and partly because the marriage/divorce laws in this state are ridiculous and asinine to begin with. I offered the information to DJ because he was expressing frustration with his WW exposing his kids to the OM… and he was seeing a negative reaction in his kids. My offering him insight into my experience was not a b*tch session on my part… on the contrary, I was telling him that my attorney told me that the only way to keep the guy away from the kids is if he can be deemed a threat to them. As such I went and checked him out. I would suggest that anyone in that spot do the same thing. Believe me… the list of things I want to do to this guy is about a mile long…. And would probably have the FBI knocking on my door if I started listing them here… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Point being, I apologize for the misunderstanding… and although I agree that listing names probably isn’t a good idea, I think you may have taken the rest of my post out of context.

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]</small>