Yeah...
I completely understand your feelings. I went through the same crap. Fortunately, My situation ended well. I genuinely feel for anyone who had to go through this pain... and, I genuinely hate anyone who would willfully interfere with a marriage, with the intentions of tearing it apart for their own personal gain.
The OM that tried to break my family apart was doing so over a personal grudge with me. He, and two of his friends were putting my wife under constant mental and emotional attack... chipping away at her will and sanity until she was unable to think for herself at all (she was fairly unstable to begin with... and, they knew it). Then, they got her drunk at someone else's house so he could have his way with her.
I have forgiven my wife for her wrong-doing... but, for the disrespect, demoralizing, and manipulation he put my wife through... I will hate him forever. I feel a certain ammount of helplessness over the current laws of this country. Fronteer Justice would have given me the right to put him to sleep forever, myself. I greatly regret not taking my God-given right to end him, despite the Earthly laws in this screwed-up country. I feel as bothered by his continued existence as I feel happy about the path my marriage is taking.

About all I can do, now, is pray to God for justice. I'm not fully happy with simply having my family back... I wish serious harm and suffering on the OM. I was his loyal friend for almost a decade, before all this. I trusted him, and defended him... all out of pity. And, for what? For him to tell her things like "you deserve better than him", "he's never going to change", "I can make your life better than he ever will"... bullsh*t like that... all while she was drunk out of her mind. Not only that... but, he aimed to knock her up, too.
Thankfully, he failed on everything he set out for, except getting into her pants. The worst disrespect possible towards both myself and my wife.
(to give some perspective as to exactly how I've always felt about this dirtbag, listen to, and read the lyrics of, a song called 'Desecrate Through Revernce' by Avenged Sevenfold)

So... if this shows it.... I understand the antipathy you all feel.... because I feel it towards someone as well. I'm not coming down on you in any way. I need to vent about the slimeball I know of, as well. The offer of that Livejournal.com account wasn't sarcastic in any way... I'll do it if you want to join in.

Anyways... peace, love, and tight corners...
-Jarod Wynde

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

WMWB???: Yep. You can believe your kids. They be misinformed somtimes, but they don't lie.

LL: Plan B would be difficult for me with the kids and small town. I don't think I've LBed too badly for a few weeks, one little one on the phone last weekend which I have apologized for. Mostly playing mind games now, which I enjoy and can do pretty good as long as I stay cool. I let her have the kids last night. Buckled them in and kissed them good night. Then I gave WW a hug and peck on the cheek and told her I loved her and walked away. She had a look an her face like I had just kicked her dog. Maybe because it was in front of the kids. Is that a bad thing?

I don't think it is a bad thing at all... in fact it is probably a good thing for your kids to see from you. You might want to stop telling her you love her though. Have you seen the divorce busters 180 degree list yet? It may do you some good... I see if I can dig it up for ya.

Here it is DJ...


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

WMWB???: Yes, please. Idon't think I have ever even heard of it. The I love you and walk away was on the advice of my shrink, I threw the hug and peck in on my own, we didn't discuss doing anything in front of the kids.

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]</small>

I posted it right before your last post... go back to the end of page 3. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ah man! WMWB, I wish I had knew about this list about 9 months ago. I did the exact opposite on just about everything on that list. Ah well. Such is life. But hey! I'm doing them all now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks. Got it, printing it. My 'puter is sooooo sllloooooooooooowwwwwwwww.

I get the kids back at noon today and I know WW will be making the 2 hour drive to OM ASAP afterward for the holiday weekend. Would it be an LB or against the 180 thing to say as sicerely as possible to be careful on her drive to other town???

Well, it isn't an LB... but is is against the 108 thing. Don't do anything like that...please! Just be exuberant about seeing the kids... be happy and excited. Say hi to her and bye to her (still smiling now...) in a polite and warm tone... NO SARCASM!!!!! Then just go about your business with the kids.

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]</small>

Thats probably best. As hurtful as this is, I doubt I could pull off the sincerety act, the sarcasm will come out and I will have LBed and gone against the 180 thing both. Hi, the kids are going to grandparents in another state be back next Wed. or Thurs. if you want you can call them there, bye. (Hope you and OM don't get run over by a beer truck this weekend.)

Don't just go out and do everything on the list.
That is not the intent of the list nor is it how Michele Weiner-Davis intends it to be used.
They are merely a few suggestions.

The basic principle of the 180 is "If you are doing something and not getting good results (or any results) then do the opposite."

For example,
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
If these things are working, then continue to do them. If she gets ticked off whne you try to do thses, then stop (this is the 180)
However, you should do them as often as you plan on doing them forever. For instance, don't buy a little gift every single day or plan on making a date every night. Thenit seems like oyu are doing it only because of the current situation and not because of the marriage in general.

11. Do not say "I Love You".
If you are saying I Love You and it is doing something (she appreciates it) then continue to do this.

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
This does not mean you are "happy" with things as they are and you are proceeding on with divorce. It simply means you should not be a downer around your ws (as in #13).

Would it be an LB or against the 180 thing to say as sicerely as possible to be careful on her drive to other town???
No, it would NOT be a LB to do it.
Yes, this is something you should say to her.

Well, it isn't an LB... but is is against the 108 thing. Don't do anything like that...please!
Why? It's not against Divorce Busting (the 180 list is only a part of Divorce Busting) and it is not against Marriage Builders.

Divorce Busting and Marriage Builders do not go hand in hand with each other.
If you are going to do Divorce Busting then you need to read that book and use those principles.
If you are going to do Marriage Builders, then use these principles.

Telling her to drive safe is good to do in both Divorce Busting and Marriage Builders.
(if she's going with the om or to visit the om, then I wouldn't say it. If she is simply going back to where she lives, then say it).

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

C-CA123: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
If these things are working, then continue to do them. If she gets ticked off whne you try to do thses, then stop (this is the 180)
However, you should do them as often as you plan on doing them forever. For instance, don't buy a little gift every single day or plan on making a date every night. Thenit seems like oyu are doing it only because of the current situation and not because of the marriage in general.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked her if she would like to go out to dinner for Valentines Day a few days before and got the brush off. Then I sent her her favorite flowers for Valentines Day. I wrote on the card "One last time while we are still married." When I took the kids back the next day I got a thanks for the flowers Jeff, like it really hurt her to say it, followed by a spew of revisionist history venom. This was pre D-Day. I am thinking of sending her flowers again for our anniversary in July. Maybe her favorite again or maybe some really dead wilted ones with the same card. Depends on how things are going at that time. Schedule dates together? You've got to be kidding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 11. Do not say "I Love You".
If you are saying I Love You and it is doing something (she appreciates it) then continue to do this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a few times lately, I thought it confused and maybe had her thinking at first, as I said earlier, last night she looked like I had just kicked her dog. I'm getting the impression she doesn't appreciate it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
This does not mean you are "happy" with things as they are and you are proceeding on with divorce. It simply means you should not be a downer around your ws (as in #13). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doing fairly well here IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Would it be an LB or against the 180 thing to say as sicerely as possible to be careful on her drive to other town???
No, it would NOT be a LB to do it.
Yes, this is something you should say to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The exchange has already been made, felt like I could have done it with the appearance of sincerity, elected not to. Just kept things to the neccesary exchange of info. No I love you, no bye, just turn and walk away. She's already on the road to OM.

Divorce Busting - is that the name of a book and Michele Weiner-Davis the author? Sounds interesting. I'm about halfway through SAA, seemed geared completely toward recovery and its too early for me to even think about that too much. Started Private Lies by Pittman and I'm about 1/3 of the through it. I went to the eye Dr. yesterday, getting glasses for the first time. May start reading both over again now that I can see. Getting old is a b!tch but I guess it beats the alternative.

I am thinking of sending her flowers again for our anniversary in July. Maybe her favorite again or maybe some really dead wilted ones with the same card.
Of course you will NOT send wilted flowers OR the same card.
I suggest you send a card, not to mushy and sloppy but with a bit of sentiment. It is your anniversary.

I have a few times lately, I thought it confused and maybe had her thinking at first, as I said earlier, last night she looked like I had just kicked her dog. I'm getting the impression she doesn't appreciate it.
Okay, so stop it.

Divorce Busting - is that the name of a book and Michele Weiner-Davis the author?
Yes.
You can check out www.divorcebusting.com. They have forums there similar to these except they are geared towards her specific principles/plans. ANd one should not necessarily mix & match between them, even though a lot of things are similar.

I'm about halfway through SAA
Essential reading.

Started Private Lies by Pittman and I'm about 1/3 of the through it.
Essential too and a great book. I sat in a small conference (about 30 people) with him & his daughter (she’s a shrink too) a few years ago. They both really know their stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course you will NOT send wilted flowers OR the same card. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know. I might. Had it on my mind for a while. Or maybe some dead bosenberry stems- no flower and really wicked thorns. In a really nice long stemmed rose box from the local florist of course.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can check out www.divorcebusting.com. They have forums there similar to these except they are geared towards her specific principles/plans. ANd one should not necessarily mix & match between them, even though a lot of things are similar. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm scared to. I already have such a MB addiction my job is suffering, if I got hooked on another one, I'll get fired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Started Private Lies by Pittman and I'm about 1/3 of the through it.
Essential too and a great book. I sat in a small conference (about 30 people) with him & his daughter (she’s a shrink too) a few years ago. They both really know their stuff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My shrink is a personal friend of his and strongly reccomended this one.