Well, what does your gut instinct tell you? Usually this is right...and I think you already know the answer.

I am going to be a little sarcastic to make a point to you....and believe me, I know you are hurting.

I really enjoyed reading the previous post about the definition of insanity...I have written it down for my benefit, but here goes my 2 cents.

Task at Hand for Dear Wifey from LAST YEAR (she never did it and now it is 12 months later, 365 days of the Earth rounding the Sun, time is slipping away, I hear a Pink Floyd album in the background, etc.)

Task:
1. Write NC letter and show it to Harry because I care about him and I really want this M

Result:
1. Did not show Harry NC LETTER, but I will tell him I did...and then get angry when he asks about it...why? Because I did not write one, I am still with the OM, and I am ohhh so the important one in this R. I mean, it was just 2 weeks ago I was with him, so why not now? And......
2. Keep stringin' Harry along, he will cave in to me, and I will continue to be fat and happy with both men on my tail...wow, I am so important aren't I? Maybe, dare I say, a Goddess?

I really have to watch myself as these WS are continuing to p###%%^%^ me off!!!!

I think we all know what's happening here...she will turn this around again, reel you back in and you will feel responsible to save this thing...the ball is in her court IMHO...SO FAR, NO ACTION!!!

I would really go dark, do not see her, do not talk to her and start to get angry!!! And then go run or work out to feel better....you need to reach this stage I believe which will protect you.

Start thinking of a Boundary Line...and until she produces some evidence of change, it's all a game in my opinion.

Sorry, I do not mean to offend you..I am trying to put myself in your position. And, I know the heartstrings are being tugged, I feel it a little myself. That is why the Boundary Line will help you regain your self esteem and control.

TurningPages:

I think you get the gist of it. The NC letter is a first step to recovery. The WS must also inform the BS of any breaks in NC and even when the WS is tempted to break NC. NC must be maintained for there to be any hope of recovery. Once the WS has maintained NC for several weeks the 'fog' starts to lift a real progress can be made in recovering the marriage.

I think this is why after 18 months WW and I haven't recovered. WW was still contacting OM and staying in the fog. I have hidden from her the pain this last revelation has inflicted on me for fear that she will think that she has hurt me too much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What/why has WS continued with OM? If OM was that important, why hasn't she left you for him? What keeps her holding on to you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is an easy one. Her family would never accept the OM. WW is very 'tied' to her family. They are a fantastic bunch of folks that are very supportive and loving, but very conservative in nature (old fashioned). I love them all as much as my own family.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> is it about the OM that turns her away from you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked the WW what attracts her to him and she just responded that he's different. Wouldn't go into any further details.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it your pressures of divorce/recommitment driving her away from you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably. We are different in the respect that my WW avoids conflict like the plague, whereas I see a problem and I attack it with everything I have till it's resolved. I hate unresolved issues. WW just seems to be happy ignoring them and internalizing them till it gets to a point where it's beyond repair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you have to offer her that would guarantee she never needs to visit any other OM?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TurningPages.... this question, man this question is referenced completely wrong. This makes me feel that it's my job to make sure my WW doesn't cheat. I guess all I can say is that if WW and I do recover part of the process will be ensuring we have open and honest communication. If her needs aren't being met, or change it's her responsibility to work WITHIN the marriage to get them met. It's MY responsibility once I know those needs to meet them.

Nature:

I think your on a roll bro. Yes I do need to set my boundries, but more importantly not allowing her to woo me into relaxing or disolving them. You know the funny thing here? Once she finds out I have a boundry she goes all guns trying to cross it. I wonder what would happen If I setup some kind of boundry that prevented her from working on our relationship?

No offense taken and I really value your opinion here. Today I have been dark and will continue to do so. I didn't get much rest last night as I was way to upset to sleep. Kinda dragging today.

Harry,

You're spinning your wheels way too much when the answer is right there before you.Just how much time,effort and thinking are YOU going to keep spending on trying to get your WW to see how committed and reasonable you are to saving the marriage? You can talk until you are blue in the face,do cartwheels and stand on your head BUT SHE is not doing anything but making demands and requirements of you to MAYBE get her to come home and work on the marriage.Which at this point,is nowhere near happening because the OM is lingering in the periphery,he has to be.A NC Letter was not sent,if it was she would be well on her way to making *some progress.When a person sends a NC letter,there is the contract that says you are making that decision to save the marriage.

You have spoken a lot about your needs and God knows all of us BS's here are getting zilcho in that department but you can talk about needs and then there;s getting needs met.Your WW is not meeting them and is toying with you IMHO.This is NOT the way to go about working,staying or beginning a relationship.She has to be a grown up and make a decison about where the he** she is going to go with her life.She has two men hanging on by a thread and sits back and plays coy.

Please don't misinterpret miniscule discussions and acts by your WW as something meaningful.They have been turning out to be nothing of importance right? Back to square one each time with you getting bruised all over again.I have been there myself.That's why I am ending my marriage.The alternative is to stay in the funhouse of pain.I can't take that anymore.

Look,we all know that you would really like to make something out of all the interaction with your WW but it's like sand,it sifts through your fingers and you are left holding nothing.She has to give you something concrete to move ahead with,it's not there.

Keep going with a D.Like I mentioned before,if WW is true about wanting the D to *not go through,let her SHOW you that she means it.It's not over until the judge says it is.There's a chance until the eleventh hour if it's meant to happen.

O

What is the purpose of your staying dark? Maybe that's what she wants so she doesn't have to deal with you. If she wants the marriage to work and you do too, then living separately is not the answer. Out of sight is out of mind. If you move home, you will send the message that you are truly wanting to make things work. If things don't work, whose to say you can't move out again?

Your W is in the fog. Divorcing her now will only push her into arms of OM and only guaranteeing absolute zero recovery. If you two truly love each other, then there is always a way to make it work.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Octobergirl:

Your making sense to me. I've mellowed today and have gotten over my anger and most of the hurt from last night. Your line

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please don't misinterpret miniscule discussions and acts by your WW as something meaningful.They have been turning out to be nothing of importance right? Back to square one each time with you getting bruised all over again.

and

but it's like sand,it sifts through your fingers and you are left holding nothing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is so true.

I have thought about it a lot today. WW has made no attempt to contact me in any way so either she feels that she's done the required, "please don't" mock attempt so she can play the victim divorced by the cruel and evil husband, or she thinks she's succeded in forestalling me. Wait...one last option... or she's just as done as I am.

Tomorrow is a new day and as midnight approaches I feel refreshed. It will be unmarred by all the turmoil of today. Do I know what it will bring? Not yet.

TurningPages:

Thanks for your response and sticking with me through this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is the purpose of your staying dark? Maybe that's what she wants so she doesn't have to deal with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Going dark is not for her it's for me. It saves me from getting hurt more as well gives me time to recover from the last bout.

Ok, maybe it's a little about her. It gives her a glimpse to what life would be like without me in it.

As for not having to deal with me I have no response. I guess it works both ways in that respect.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she wants the marriage to work and you do too, then living separately is not the answer. Out of sight is out of mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true. She said the same thing and I agree with her. We need to work on the marriage together. Living together. BUT... She needs to show me that she is commited to recovery before that will happen. She's been all talk and no action for so long. Here at MB's action is a key word. For it to be real it has to be consistant and sustainable. She has never shown this. She has said she would, but never has done anything. She is the exact same selfish taker that chose to start this affair. She has lied and broken promises so many times that only real change that only she can do will move her to action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your W is in the fog. Divorcing her now will only push her into arms of OM and only guaranteeing absolute zero recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me feels this may be true I'm unsure that NC has been established and she is still seeing him. The fog should be starting to lift by now and I don't think it has.

As for if we divorce and she runs back to him well that's her choice. It's always been her choice. It was her choice to have sex with him and her choice to continue for the past year. I didn't make her. Sure I'm not innocent as far as our problems go. I'll own up to my share of the problems in the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you two truly love each other, then there is always a way to make it work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not if the other party doesn't want it to. It takes two and for the last 18 months I've been carrying this most of the time alone. She's had her moments. When a crisis arises she is there by my side. EXCEPT for our crisis.

TurningPages,

Your thoughts are most interesting and actually voice outloud what are some pretty common misconceptions about ending affairs:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TurningPages:
<strong> What is the purpose of your staying dark? Maybe that's what she wants so she doesn't have to deal with you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For example, this question is interesting. The purpose of staying dark is two-fold. First, staying dark gives Harry the time he needs to get his head together and recover from being so hurt the other night. Responding/reacting out of hurt is RARELY a wise move...plus there's only enough blood for the brain to be reasonable or emotional. If he's all emotional, he can't be reasonable, and right now he NEEDS to think as clearly as possible.

Second, staying dark is one way for betrayed spouses (BS's) to protect themself from the incredible, agonizing hurt that an affair (A) can produce. Often the person involved in the A is having SOME of their needs met by their other person (OP) and SOME of their needs met by their BS. But if the BS can go dark for a while and let the wandering spouse (WS) try to get all their needs met by the OP, then the WS can see a little quicker that the A is based primarily in fantasy and that the WS can not meet all their needs either--especially not when the bills aren't paid, the kids are yelling, or they have to lie to each other just to keep the fantasy going.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If she wants the marriage to work and you do too, then living separately is not the answer. Out of sight is out of mind. If you move home, you will send the message that you are truly wanting to make things work. If things don't work, whose to say you can't move out again? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I respectfully disagree. When an A occurs, not only was the WS not having their needs met--but the BS's trust has been completely demolished. Thus, it's not a matter of the BS "proving" to the WS that they want the marriage by moving home. Part of the bargain is that the WS also has to ACT and BEHAVE in ways that demonstrate to the BS that it's safe to move back home.

Ideally, here's the way it would go: The BS still wants to work on the marriage and tells the WS this. The WS still wants to work on the marriage and tells the BS this. The BS has to open up and risk being hurt and tell the WS what they need in order to feel safe, and that is usually something like: #1--I need US to work together on a NO CONTACT LETTER to the OP that firmly and conclusively says that you love me, that you choose to recommit to our marriage, that you do not want any contact of ANY kind, and that if the OP does try to contact that you'll tell me. We will send that letter TOGETHER. #2--I need US to agree to drastic measures to assure that an A never happens again, to assure that there will be no contact, and to assure that actions are matching promises. The drastic measures will be some things like: giving the BS all the passwords to all email addresses; giving the password to the cell phone voice mail; changing the cell phone number and not giving it out; quitting if the OP is at work; being transparently honest with schedules AND being where you say you're going to be and with whom you say you're going to be with. #3--Probably face and address some serious issues that may require individual counseling. The WS has to also open up and risk being hurt and tell the BS what they need in order to feel safe, and that is usually something like: #1--I need US to work on getting through the withdrawal period while I withdraw from getting my needs met from the OP; #2--I need assurance that I am going to be forgiven and it's not going to be held over my head forever; #3--I need assurance that my needs are going to be met...needs for affection, admiration, financial support, time and attention, protection from rage and anger, and dealing with issues that may require individual counseling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Your W is in the fog. Divorcing her now will only push her into arms of OM and only guaranteeing absolute zero recovery. If you two truly love each other, then there is always a way to make it work. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is actually a common misconception. Going into a serious Plan B does not push the WS into the arms of the OP. I do not mean this mean, but by continuing contact and continuing to hurt each other when they DO contact, it re-inforces to the WS that Harry=pain...thus I am justified in my A. However, if Harry goes into a good Plan B and stops meeting ALL needs for the WS, then no doubt the WS is going to be angry, but they will VERY quickly see that the OP can not and does not meet all their needs either. Quite often, WS's will say something like: "My OP is my soulmate" or "S/He is perfect for me and they just know what to do to make me happy." Well...HELLO!! If the BS was secreted off to romantic rendevous and jokes were laughed at and intimacy was shared, the the BS would make them happy too!! And if the OP had to face bills, mortgages, kids, disagreements, being told they are ugly, being ignored, and having their trust broken...guess what?? The OP would look about as attractive as the BS does!

My point here is that as long as the connection of Harry=pain is enforced, then that is the association his WS will have in her head. He needs to have his last words to her be, "I love you and I want to work on meeting your needs, but I also want to be in a happy, mutually satisfying marriage with you" and then not have any more Harry=pain contact. Thus, the OP will have to meet all the needs, will be faced with "real life" instead of fantasy life, and gradually the association will become OP=pain and Harry=love.

If I could make a recommendation to Harry and his wife, I would say that it seems as if neither one of them really wants to get a divorce, and yet both are afraid to make the first move without some reassurances and some safety. If that is how they both feel, I would suggest that they BOTH take one step. I would suggest that Harry create a schedule with steps that would lead to him moving back home. For example, Harry's schedule might look like this: when ABC happens, I'll give my wife a date every night for a week...when BCD happens, I'll move some of my clothes into one drawer in the bedroom like I'm staying over for the weekend...when XYZ happens, I'll move home entirely. Likewise I would suggest that Harry's wife create a similar schedule: I will talk with Harry about the wording of a no contact letter this week, and he will do ABC; I will turn over all passwords and phone numbers and email addresses by next week, and he will do BCD; and I will attend individual counseling for one month and he will do XYZ.

Does that make sense?? And if they just can not contact each other without spiraling into hurting each other, I would also suggest that they use a go-between person who is an objective 3rd party (maybe by mail to keep it very formal) who can hold them accountable and who might be able to make suggestions and brainstorm ways to become "unstuck." Then gradually they could start to progress with 3-way phone calls, and then start to talk to each other and negotiate themselves!

Now all of this is just ONE example of a plan to show how this could potentionally be repaired. This takes risk on both sides, but more importantly it takes consistency, transparent honesty, and ACTIONS.


CJ

CJ:

One question....

What if BS's Love Bank does not have enough credits in it to start recoverery? When is WS expected to start depositing back in?

Also when does WS become accountable? I mean when does the BS get to see the cards the WS has been holding in order to make the decision to move on or recover? Should BS just let that sleeping dog lie and try and block out their fears as to the extent of the betrayal?

Uh, sorry... Started out with one question. I think it was a pregnant question that delivered before I hit the Add Reply button

Harry - I am not CJ but going to give my 2 cents worth anyway
first of all, you must have some small deposits in your love bank, or you would not even be considering reconciliation. I know that when my H and I finally got divorced I had nothing let for him. I like him as a person, but the thought of ever sleeping with him, or even kissing him, does not apeal to me AT ALL. Not even a little bit.
To answer question number 2 - I think the time is right now. She needs to show you all her cards. You have all ready stalled the D and given her a chance to show you that she wants to be married to you - in every sense of the word. Yet she did nothing. she did not send the NC letter - she keeps putting you off with lame [censored] excuses about "I am too busy helping DD" or "I can't work on M until you move home". All talk. No action. she needs to lay it all out there for you to see. Poop or get off the pot. (I swear I want to slap her)
IMO you do NOT need to move home to work on the realtionship. That would just give her the chance to fall back into the old habits she has been into lately - sleep with me so I won't be lonely, but don't ask for anything in return. Take a bath with me, but then get the heck out of here so I can have my alone time.
I think that a written plan - perhaps with her writing it - may be in order "if" you decide to postpone the D - which I am not suggesting. But - if you did - I think something along the line of "I know you want me to move home, but I am not ready yet. It is still too painful for me. Perhaps we could agree to something like 3 months of counseling first, and then I will move in, and continue counseling."
just a thought.
and CJ's comments above are right on as always - staying dark is not about your WW - it is about you. About holding onto your last remaining love bank deposits. about keeping a cool head, so you can focus. I do not believe there is any such thing as "out of sight out of mind". Not a chance. You were together too long - she lives in your marital home - she remembers you every time she looks around the house, hears a certain song, watches a show on TV that you liked, sees a mutual friend. You name it. You can't erase that much time from your life. She is not going to forget you.

WF:

Hey girl! Nice to see ya again! Hope everything is going great for ya.

Yes, my Love Bank isn't quite drained yet. There's still some sloshing noises coming from it, though I really don't understand why it isn't empty.

As for full disclosure. You know the saying, "Ignorance is bliss". I am unsure how much I want to know. For instance she says that they were only physical that one time in May 2003. I have a really hard time believing that. She did admit to spending New Year's Eve with him, but denies kissing him at midnight. She also says that OM has never been to the house, nor have they had SF in our bed......

one thing I do want to know:

I really want to know what he has that I don't. Why is she so attracted to him? Is he a better lover? Smarter? Funnier?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Poop or get off the pot. (I swear I want to slap her) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been saying/feeling this since last summer. The ring around her butt must permanent by now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HarryS:
<strong> CJ:

One question.... (that turned into three-- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

What if BS's Love Bank does not have enough credits in it to start recoverery? When is WS expected to start depositing back in? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why Harry actually this is an easy question to answer. The WS is not "expected" to do anything! In fact, I would be willing to bet that expectations may be part of the problem that got us all here to this place in the first place! I'm going to tell you something that you probably are not going to want to hear: you can not MAKE your spouse love you or reconcile the mariage. You can not MAKE your WW start depositing in your lovebank. She is completely free and clear to make any choice she decides regarding you, the OM, the family and the marriage. She is also completely responsible to live with the consequences of her own decisions though too.

Let me give you an example from my own life. I loved my exH with my whole heart, the best that I knew. I had no clue about emotional needs or functional needs--or about lovebusting--or any of that stuff, so I made LOTS of mistakes mostly because I did not know any better. When I learned better, I did my very best effort to DO better. But I did continue wondering how I could MAKE him do the EN Questionnaire, or how I could MAKE him stop abusing me, or how I could MAKE him be faithful to me. I didn't get it. See, it's a little like an alcoholic. The spouse and family think "How do we MAKE him stop drinking?" and in real life, if he doesn't want to stop drinking, they could tie him to a CHURCH and he'd find a way to lie or cheat or steal a drink! Somewhere in the alcoholic's heart, HE has to want to quit! HE has to want to make himself stop drinking!! All the bru-ha before he wants that for himself is just wasted energy. Same here. My exH had to want to fill out the EN Questionnaire within himself--he had to want to open up to me, he had to want to do it himself, and he had to want to share the results with me. Ditto for the abuse and being faithful. HE had to want it!!

Harry, you can not expect your WS to make deposits into your lovebank. The only possible result is resentment, hurt, and broken expectations. So, since you can not make her deposit into your love bank, where yu are at is that you have about 5 pennies left in your bank...not a lot, but it's not quite empty. Do you want to freely, of your own goodness and love, give her another penny deposit and expect nothing back?? Or do you want to hold onto those last 5 pennies right now just in case??? You can only have expectations of yourself, and you can only decide for YOU if you are going to deposit or not. Let HER worry about and decide for HERSELF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Also when does WS become accountable? I mean when does the BS get to see the cards the WS has been holding in order to make the decision to move on or recover? Should BS just let that sleeping dog lie and try and block out their fears as to the extent of the betrayal? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...well let's make a gigantic assumption here. Let's assume that the WS has a desire to reconcile in their heart, but is afraid. Let's also assume that the BS has a desire to reconcile but is also afraid of being hurt again. I would say that the BS is going to have to own up to something before ANY cards are revealed, and that is that the BS most likely did not create an environment in which it was SAFE for the WS to be transparently honest. It is just a statistical guess, but quite often BS's say, "I wish s/he would be honest with me" so the WS thinks "Okay I will" and then tells the BS "Well, I know this is going to hurt you a bit, but my OP took time for me and acted like they were interested when I talked, rather than just blowing me off or shutting me up." Upon hearing this, the BS just EXPLODES and says, "What the heck do you mean? I listen to you. I spend hour after hour listening to you cut me down and call me names and ....." Now what did the WS just learn??

(tapping my foot....)

They learned that they are not REALLY safe being honest with the BS. If they actually express what they are honestly thinking or feeling, the BS is going to contradict, deny, blame, and yell. That is NOT the lesson that is going to encourage the WS to show all the cards!!

Soooo...before the WS just opens themself up to be bludgeoned to death, the BS has to actually practice honesty safety and validation. In the scenario above, the BS could have replied, "Well what you said did hurt me, but thank you for being completely honest with me. You feel as if I do not listen to you or take time for you like I'm interested in you, and I bet that hurt."

Next, I think once a WS is fully onboard with making the effort to reconcile, that it's their turn to accept a few things they are not going to like. First, is being very, very open. At first, this feels like you are standing in your front yard naked, because your spouse is seeing all your warts and faults--and you just spent a WHOLE bunch of time trying to hide them and be secret. Next, is that withdrawal hurts so that at first, recovery is not going to feel all lovey, smooshy, and honeymoony. It's going to feel like your best friend just died, and just like when a friend does die, you have to feel the sadness and grief, but you also have to realize somewhere in your head that this will go away someday. Time will lessen the withdrawal. Third, that your spouse's trust has not just been broken (that would be two fairly big pieces and some super glue) but demolished and pulverized and destroyed. In order to rebuild trust, it is going to feel a little invasive and snoopy and like you're being checked up on, and as WS you have to just suck it up for a little while and let those BS's snoop. They need that to start believing you again. So, like I said, suck it up and endure the snooping for a while--and after a bit, living a completely open life will start to feel comfortable and normal.

Finally, and in conclusion Harry, you asked if BS's should just let that sleeping dog lie. I think there are some details a person needs to know, and some are just creating some self-inflicted wounds. I do not need to know what POSITION my exH and his OW did it in. I may need to know if they did it in our bed so that I can decide if maybe I want a new bed. (And wouldn't that be a fun item in reconciliation?? Our old bed was the marriage bed of our old relationship--so we are getting a whole new marriage bed to represent our new marriage.) I may need to know if he found her short dark hair attractive and if he'd like MY hair to be short and dark--but he was always afraid to ask. Does that make sense?

And the hardest thing of all Harry, is when a WS of their own free will chooses to NOT reconcile or chooses for the OP or the A instead of you. Then lots and lots of those sleeping dogs never do wake up and those questions never do get answered. That drove me NUTS! I had so many things I wished that my exH would have just told me, and instead I had to come to realize and accept that I would never know some of these things AND that I would never be heard on some of the things I needed to say.

We can not MAKE them love us, Harry. They have to choose it of their own free will because THEY want to love us.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HarryS:
<strong> ...one thing I do want to know:

I really want to know what he has that I don't. Why is she so attracted to him? Is he a better lover? Smarter? Funnier? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One quick comment here Harry. You know who Halle Berry is, right? She is currently Catwoman and she is knock down, drag out, brickhouse gorgeous--smart, funny, beautiful. In most every way she is physically ideal...and her husband cheated on her.

Nicole Kiddman? Tall, long-legged, strawberry blonde goddess of a woman--intelligent, capable, savy...and her husband cheated on her.

Ben Afleck? Handsome, rugged, rich, gorgeous, lively, interesting--in every way that we know of, a perfect catch of a man...and JLo cheated on him. (Of course, she's nuts, but that's another story.)

My son?? Lively, funny as can be, can sing like an angel, handsome, interesting, a joy of life...and his GF cheated on him.

My point here is that often people get caught up in thinking "Was the OP better than me? More physically attractive? A better sex partner? Richer?" and in real life, the affair often is not about "sex". Just like rape isn't about sex, but power and control--an affair is usually about meeting needs...usually admiration, affection, attention, openness--those kinds of needs.

You may be stunned to discover that your OM was a short, chubby little accountant from Podunk...who is bald and about 12 years older than you! He may be wrinkled, ugly, poor, of low moral character, and impotent! But none of that matters, because he acted in a way that made your WW feel like, "You're interested in ME??? You like me the way I am and don't want me to put a cork on some of my natural talkativeness?? You LIKE my jokes? OMG, you think my chubby little nose is CUTE??!!! You LIKE my tummy??!! Even *I* don't like my tummy, and my hubby is always nagging me about being too fat!"

See it has little or nothing to do with "what he has that you don't." It's almost 100% about how he makes her feel when she's talking to him or when she's with him. She if VIBRANT, INTERESTING, FUNNY, ALIVE, and WANTED--someone actually wants her and likes her just as she is.

That's why I was telling you that "Harry=pain, OM=wanted" thing before. If she starts to equate it that way, then she will associate you with being hurt and being torn down and belittled; OTOH she will associate OM with feeling good, being funny and being wanted. We want to turn that around so that "Harry=wanted, OM=pain". We want her to associate Harry with feeling good about herself, being accepted for who she is, and being wanted.

Get it??


CJ

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

CJ:

Wow! and Wow! You make a lot of sense. Double smack-down for Harry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why Harry actually this is an easy question to answer. The WS is not "expected" to do anything! In fact, I would be willing to bet that expectations may be part of the problem that got us all here to this place in the first place! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guilty as charged. I have a H U G E issue with expectations and what's worse is I know it. I try, I really do try and not expect anything, but what's missing in our interaction with each other sometimes feels impossible to ignore. I also know that I'm guilty of making withdrawls from my own Love Bank because of this.

Example: A couple of weeks ago I was over there and was sitting at the end of the bed on the floor. WW comes out of the bathroom after having showered with nothing on. She then put's on a T Shirt and nothing else and then comes and sit's in my lap facing me. We hug and hold each other for a few minutes.

NOW tell me, at this point how freaking impossible is it not to expect something?

BUT

I don't want her to stop doing this, it feels good, it feels close, I feel intimate with her.

BUT

argh..... I'm just a man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but quite often BS's say, "I wish s/he would be honest with me" so the WS thinks "Okay I will" and then tells the BS "Well, I know this is going to hurt you a bit, but my OP took time for me and acted like they were interested when I talked, rather than just blowing me off or shutting me up." Upon hearing this, the BS just EXPLODES and says, "What the heck do you mean? I listen to you. I spend hour after hour listening to you cut me down and call me names and ....." Now what did the WS just learn??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">again, guilty as charged. BUT I have been working on this. I really have! I Promise!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would never know some of these things AND that I would never be heard on some of the things I needed to say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I only want to know them if we stay together. If not I really don't care to know. I will close that book and not think about it again.

CJ, you have a great insight and I very much appreciate your view..

Thanks!

I don't know why, but I took JL's advice. I sent her a copy of my thoughts and feelings from Monday night.

I think it may have been a mistake.

I guess you can only do what you feel is best. I am not sure what you thought the letter would do, somehow change her mind? She can only do that and you know it.

I would continue to work and focus on you as the other posters and I have indicated. Go dark, do not discuss the R, move forward and focus on you being the better person and the man you want to be. You have given all week to this and still not have filed with a new L...what are your plans?

Steer into the clear seas!

My best wishes on your behalf.

Harry,

What did you send her? How did she react? A mistake in what sense? If you got a reaction out of her, even anger, then it was probably NOT a mistake.

You need motion from her. If it is away then your decision to leave her is made and as you want it. If it is sideways it means you are starting to address the impass (sp) and progress is possible.

Don't jump to snap decisions here. This is a process and it requires communications, clear, concise, and honest communications. If that is what you gave her, you are doing what you can. She does NOT have to like it, but if she received it and understands it, then good.

So give us an update and hang on you are still on the rollercoaster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Where is CJ? I like what she has to say. It all makes sense. If she equates Harry=pain, then how will she get beyond that? Seems like she wants to reconcile but is reluctant as long as Harry=pain.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TurningPages,

You can see my email address in my signature line, so you can write to me any time you'd like: faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com. However, I tend to come on the forum here in mid-morning, and later on at night since I'm kind of a nightowl.

Anyway, you were asking how a WS gets past it if Spouse=pain. Would I be correct to guess that is how it is in your situation?? Do you have reason to believe that your spouse would LIKE to be Spouse=love but maybe doesn't know how to get there either??

What I tend to find with people is that they will have behaved in ways the hurt each other for an extended period of time. Both have contributed, and it's not a matter of "he did THIS" or "she did THAT" but that he ignored her and spoke to her like she was unimportant, and she stopped putting on makeup or dressing up for him. Then he felt sad and a little unattractive, so he spent more time with the guys and flirted a little with the lady at work to feel a little more hunky, and she noticed that and felt hurt that he'd just treat her like she's not valuable AT ALL, so she finally agreed to go to lunch with that guy at work who has been asking her for a year. Then she started to tell him how lonely she felt and how her H is never there for her when she feels sad--and the guy from work listens as if he's interested AND he's supportive and understanding!

See the ingredients for the affair???

THEN, the H finds out that she has a little bit of feelings for this guy at work who has been there for her, and he has a FIT...and she is driven even further away. Who would want to be with someone who treats her like that? Then he starts in on the whole "tell me the truth" but exploding when he hears it, and blaming her for the whole affair....OY!

What BS's sometimes don't see is that their initial neglect and initial lack of meeting needs and treating their spouse as valueless CONTRIBUTED. No, the WS did not have to fall for the guy at work, and could have said no...it's true that there is personal responsibility there. But I mean it's not just that the WS has the "change"--the BS has to make some efort too...and often that part is kinda missed because their life has been turned upside down and their heart is crushed.

Soooo...(long answer, hey?) I would suggest that if both the BS and the WS want to do this in their heart, but they're both afraid and feel unsafe and both still go back to all the Spouse=pain whenever they see each other, that they need to start SMALL and start doing some things that they both like that are FUN. When the "fun" or pleasant thing is over, they thank each other, give a little hug and kiss, and GO!

Let me give you an example. If you are a medium typical lady, some of your emotional needs might be honesty, affection, or conversation. If your H is a medium typical man, some of his emotional needs might be admiration, attractiveness, and recreation. So, I would suggest something like, this agreement:

This week, we are going to go out TWICE--on Tuesday night and Saturday. We will both put a little effort into looking good for each other. We will pick things to do that we BOTH like to do, or we will pick something BS likes to do on Tuesday and WS on Saturday. We will pick something that involved some playing together and yet leaves some room for talking. We will hold hands if we want to, we can hug if we want to, we will end the night with a good long hug and a kiss. The husband will pay attention to his wife, speak to her respectfully and like he cares/is interested, will talk about topics she enjoys, and will be affectionate but not over-the-top or excessive. He'll do something sweet. The wife will admire him for something smart he did at work, something wise he did at home, laugh at his jokes, and tell him one thing she really admires about him. If both parties agree they may discuss ONE question about the affair. The husband may ask ONE question and the wife will be honest--and the husband's response will be "Thank you for telling me the truth. I appreciate that you would trust me with your feelings." PERIOD--nothing more. The wife may ask ONE question and the husband will be honest--and the wife's response will be "Thank you for telling me the truth. I appreciate that you would trust me with your feelings." PERIOD--nothing more. Great care will be given to have FUN, to enjoy each other's company, to not let it spiral into any kind of discussion, and to end the night fairly early on a positive note so that Spouse=nice time.

I think what typically happens with people is that they want to get together and fix it all in ONE NIGHT!! So they BS tries to have relationship talks, or the WS tries to go further with sex than they are really comfortahble with, or they both try to make the other one see their point of view! Often the WS feels overwhelmed with all the questions about the affair and what happened and how it happened and...and...and, until eventually they just scream STOP!! And often the BS is so full of questions because they were blindsided and never saw it coming and how could they miss something so BIG and how can they fix it and...and...and.

That's why I instigate a few "rules". If you like each other but feel uncomfortable being physical yet, let that be a rule to the date--like "I'd like to hold hands but nothing further tonight" because taking away that fear/expectation that "MAYBE there'll be sex, maybe there won't, how do I read the signals"--makes it a lot easier to just enjoy each other and have fun. That's also why I instigate the one question rule. I think most people can tolerate one question and be brave enough to be honest for one question. It may hurt a little to be openly honest for one question, but it's not harmful to your soul, devastating...it's one question. AND usually both parties have some questions they would like to ask! It's kind of important to know the answers! But one question is not overwhelming, and it's not too painful (a little but not horrible), and you can practice making a safe place to be honest, etc.

Hope that helps ya! If you'd like help starting a Spouse=nice time agreement, I'd be happy to help you, TurningPages. Just email me!!


CJ

Whoa! I did not mean to hijack this post. But your insight has truth and meaning. I hope what you've just said has shed light for Harry and whoever else out there reading this (and whichever field you're playing on). Muchos Thankos.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TurningPages:

Hijack away. If this helps more than one, more's the better!

Nature:

I hear ya man. I've stayed pretty dark the last couple of days. I did go over there last night to pick up my mail. She answered the door and said, "I hope your not here to bug me." she then turned her back on me and ignored me the next several minutes I was there. I bailed quickly and the drive home was like, I am so freaking stupid.

Just Learning:

Here is the text of what I sent her.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [Wife},

I wasn't expecting you to show up at my door Monday night. My first thought was here you were trying to pull me back in and keep me from finalizing this. I figured you would use the same tool you used the last time, sex. That was my first thought. You came in and we talked for a bit. Actually most of the talk was pretty nice. We talked about what lead to the affair and other things. The conversation was all over the place, but it settled down to your #1 issue and my #1 issue. Your's is having me move back in. You state that you cannot work on 'us' till we are together and for the most part I agree.

BUT

My #1 is not about 'us'. It's about you and your commitment to me and our marriage. I need to feel that you will do anything and everything to make 'us' work. I need you to reattach to me emotionally. I need to see actions showing me that you really want a mutually fulfilling relationship with me. I need to feel wanted and I need the rejection to stop. I need to see these things consistantly without a slide back to the emotionless void.

Then you chimeed in at this point and said, "I will not have sex with you till you move home."

What the Hell! Ok granted sex would be great, after this long it would be awesome, but only as a part of the rest. Not as a tool to make me change my mind, but as an expression that we're gluing 'us' back together again as well as showing me that you cared enough about my needs.

To be honest I took insult to your comment, you think all I want is sex. If that was the case I wouldn't be hanging around you. The conversation degraded after that. With me telling you that your holding back and you telling me that you refuse to be used.

ARRRRGHHH!!! Me? A user?

Then you left in the midst of the arguement after I told you my assumption of what you were there for (see above comment o manipulating me with sex) with you being insulted. I apoligized for my assumption, but the damage was done. You were offended.

Then you called me on your way home and the arguement continued. You stating that even if I move back home I shouldn't expect to have sex until you had all your needs met first.

I never mentioned sex. Your the one that brought it up. The more I think about this the more hacked off I got. You had an affair, had sex with someone else and I'm the one that stays sexually faithful and I'm the one that's a sex addict?

You knew how to push my buttons. And I felt really pushed that night.

YES I still love you. Very much in fact, but I am so afraid of you and your not giving me anything to calm my fears. Tonight's an example. I know you didn't come over here to get in an arguement with me and hurt me and get hurt yourself. But you did hit me with that sexual rejection number and that really hurts, especially after you having an affair. I need to know that I'm still attractive to you in that regard and you keep making me feel like I'm some kind of pervert.


I was so hurt and upset that night that I wasn't sure what to do. You know for a few minutes tonight I thought we were about to break through and fix this and now I'm just plain hurt again and angry to boot.


You have some things to do on your own and haven't (at least to my perception) addressed them. Your priority has always been your needs and what you wanted. My priority has mostly been your needs and what you wanted. I don't think you sees, or wants to see that to fix this and get your needs met from me you will have to meet some of my needs.


I need to know that I am wanted, needed and loved. Not just told but shown.

I need you to stop seeing/talking to/writing to/waving at {OM}. Not just for a couple of days, but forever.

I need to know that I am the ONLY man in your life and that you really wants ME to be happy.

I need respect, affection and admiration.

I need openness. I don't want to haveto grill you to find something out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's almost an exact copy of what I posted here except I left out my need for SF at the bottom. It seemed to me at the time that I was being childish.

Her reaction? Nillo, nada, nothing. Why do I feel it was a mistake? I think it may send her the wrong message.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need motion from her. If it is away then your decision to leave her is made and as you want it. If it is sideways it means you are starting to address the impass (sp) and progress is possible.

Don't jump to snap decisions here. This is a process and it requires communications, clear, concise, and honest communications. If that is what you gave her, you are doing what you can. She does NOT have to like it, but if she received it and understands it, then good.

So give us an update and hang on you are still on the rollercoaster. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to keep myself noncommital, but it's stuff like this that jerk my chain. She's shown no action, positive or otherwise since Monday night. No attempts at communication. Of course neither have I.

CJ:

When does remorse and restitution come into play? Am I expected to forgive when the WW hasn't even sought forgiveness? When does the BS get healed? Is the BS just expected to eat it and go on like nothing happened? If that's the case I seriously question the value of recovery.

I'm not saying that I don't have work to do. I know that there is much that I was responsible for in creating the atmosphere in which my WW had her affair and I have already done (considering our current arrangement) some things and fully intend to address the rest once recovery starts.

BUT

the WS is the one that made the choice that destroyed the BS. I'm not looking for revenge, I'm looking for remorse. I N E E D to see that!

BUT

It just seems too one sided. It's all about making the WS feel good, comfortable and safe. I don't know. It just seems like the BS is just sucking it up. Slap on the wrist for the WS.

AND

There is always the threat to the BS that the WS will just do it again if things don't go their way. There has to be some motivational factor to the WS that Affair=Bad.

<small>[ July 22, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: HarryS ]</small>