Not trying to butt in here....butttttttt,

Last week you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> her #1 issue and my #1 issue. Her's is having me move back in. She states that she cannot work on 'us' till we together
My #1 is not about 'us'. It's about her and her commitment to me and our marriage. I need to feel that she will do anything and everything to make 'us' work.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Below is an exert from one of CJ's posts to you a few days ago....it is a "plan" and I, personally, thought it was brilliant.
CJ gives you the steps for two people who want to make 'us' work and work on 'us' together.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ideally, here's the way it would go: The BS still wants to work on the marriage and tells the WS this. The WS still wants to work on the marriage and tells the BS this. The BS has to open up and risk being hurt and tell the WS what they need in order to feel safe, and that is usually something like:
#1--I need US to work together on a NO CONTACT LETTER to the OP that firmly and conclusively says that you love me, that you choose to recommit to our marriage, that you do not want any contact of ANY kind, and that if the OP does try to contact that you'll tell me. We will send that letter TOGETHER.
#2--I need US to agree to drastic measures to assure that an A never happens again, to assure that there will be no contact, and to assure that actions are matching promises. The drastic measures will be some things like: giving the BS all the passwords to all email addresses; giving the password to the cell phone voice mail; changing the cell phone number and not giving it out; quitting if the OP is at work; being transparently honest with schedules AND being where you say you're going to be and with whom you say you're going to be with.
#3--Probably face and address some serious issues that may require individual counseling.

The WS has to also open up and risk being hurt and tell the BS what they need in order to feel safe, and that is usually something like:
#1--I need US to work on getting through the withdrawal period while I withdraw from getting my needs met from the OP;
#2--I need assurance that I am going to be forgiven and it's not going to be held over my head forever;
#3--I need assurance that my needs are going to be met...needs for affection, admiration, financial support, time and attention, protection from rage and anger, and dealing with issues that may require individual counseling.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know if I were either the BS or the WS and I loved my spouse and wanted it to work, I would try that plan.


BTW....The great John Wayne was a bit stubborn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

First off to JL:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What can you not do without her?? You set your own course, and use the attributes that you revere in your hero's to make that course consistent with your beliefs and hopes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The leap of faith. Putting my heart out there totally open. Even now with all the protections I have up it still gets hurt.

I think you and CJ are great people with a brilliant insight and I don't want to seem the least bit derogatory here, but it feels like your telling me to take it on the chin. To exonerate her of everything before she's even shown the least amount of remorse or contrition.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Olyvia:
<strong> Not trying to butt in here....butttttttt,

Last week you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> her #1 issue and my #1 issue. Her's is having me move back in. She states that she cannot work on 'us' till we together
My #1 is not about 'us'. It's about her and her commitment to me and our marriage. I need to feel that she will do anything and everything to make 'us' work.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Below is an exert from one of CJ's posts to you a few days ago....it is a "plan" and I, personally, thought it was brilliant.
CJ gives you the steps for two people who want to make 'us' work and work on 'us' together.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ideally, here's the way it would go: The BS still wants to work on the marriage and tells the WS this. The WS still wants to work on the marriage and tells the BS this. The BS has to open up and risk being hurt and tell the WS what they need in order to feel safe, and that is usually something like:
#1--I need US to work together on a NO CONTACT LETTER to the OP that firmly and conclusively says that you love me, that you choose to recommit to our marriage, that you do not want any contact of ANY kind, and that if the OP does try to contact that you'll tell me. We will send that letter TOGETHER.
#2--I need US to agree to drastic measures to assure that an A never happens again, to assure that there will be no contact, and to assure that actions are matching promises. The drastic measures will be some things like: giving the BS all the passwords to all email addresses; giving the password to the cell phone voice mail; changing the cell phone number and not giving it out; quitting if the OP is at work; being transparently honest with schedules AND being where you say you're going to be and with whom you say you're going to be with.
#3--Probably face and address some serious issues that may require individual counseling.

The WS has to also open up and risk being hurt and tell the BS what they need in order to feel safe, and that is usually something like:
#1--I need US to work on getting through the withdrawal period while I withdraw from getting my needs met from the OP;
#2--I need assurance that I am going to be forgiven and it's not going to be held over my head forever;
#3--I need assurance that my needs are going to be met...needs for affection, admiration, financial support, time and attention, protection from rage and anger, and dealing with issues that may require individual counseling.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know if I were either the BS or the WS and I loved my spouse and wanted it to work, I would try that plan.


BTW....The great John Wayne was a bit stubborn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Olyvia: Yes, I am very stubborn. It's a fault I'm fully aware of. I have no clue how to not be stubborn without also giving up other qualities like tenaciousness and steadfastness which have served me well.

and Thank you so much for pulling that post. I sometimes forget to look back for answers that have already been given.

Ok, so I have a plan. Now what is the best way to get my wife to buy into it? Ok maybe forget buying into it, how about what's the best way to approach her with it?

To be honest after reading CJ's post about my activities over the last week I feel like I've done more harm than good and honestly I question my ability to do anything right in regards to my wife without just totally screwing the pooch.

Harry,

As the Duke would say, "Pilgrim, it is time to fill your hands or get out of town."

Harry, I am not saying you should do one thing or another, but I will tell you what my college football coach once yelled at me. "Don't just stand there boy, do something wrong, right once in your life." He was right, inaction was the absolutely worst thing I could do and any action even if wrong had a chance of being helpful.

Indecision, is what is killing you. That doesn't mean you rush off and do something, but start to make decisions and act on them. I don't know your W, and I don't know if you came back it would really matter. This may all be a game for her, just to see if you will come back to her.

But, you know what?? It does NOT matter, if it is what you want to do. If you have a plan. For example, you could decide that you are simply done with this and drop a dime to your lawyer and end it.

Or you could say I know this is going to hurt, but I am moving back in for ### months, and then I will reevaluate the situation, and if I don't like it I am not only leaving, the divorce papers will be in my hand.

Or... You can just stand there and vacilate back and forth and get yelled at by my old football coach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My advice Pilgrim is fill you hands and get to work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Hi Harry,

Glad to catch you at a time when it seems we are both on the forum!

I want to commend you on a couple of things. First, you took a little thought-provoking criticism and looked at yourself without becoming defensive! YAY! That deserves an ice cream! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Next, you actually looked at yourself and saw where you had some short-comings and took responsibility for yourself! YAY!!

See?? Aren't you something?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Now Harry, I can not speak for JL because he just recently had a birthday and is now so old I think he has Alzheimers (tease tease), but I for one can say that I do NOT expect or encourage or even WANT you to take it in the shorts. It is not wise to wear your heart on your sleeve nor to give trust to someone who is not trustworthy. Boy, it would be awful to suggest to a friend that they purposely lay themselves wide open for attack and shredding! Nope, that is NOT, NOT, NOT what I am suggesting.

Rather, I'm suggesting that you look to yourself and your heroes: John Wayne (as a movie character) and your Dad. They were manly men, unafraid to love and fight, honest and true, loyal, committed, dependable, responsible, trustworthy, moral, decent MEN. Men like this day-and-age doesn't have anymore. If that is the way you want to be, and if you feel like that is that man you have the potential to be, then let's take steps together so that you BECOME that man. John Wayne and your Dad would decide if they were committed to their women, and then stand there like ROCKS unmoving and unafraid. There were as strong and dependable and unchanging as a boulder and nothing and no one could shake once they had determined their course. So if YOU want to be like those men, and you want to stand for your marriage, then YOU can stand and be firm and act in a way that always and consistently demonstrates standing even if your WW choses something else. You STAND FIRM.

Harry, I didn't and don't want to hurt your feelings, nor do I want to put you in danger. I was just trying to give you a few examples from your own behavior that are up and down, back and forth, love and hate--inconsistent. And don't get me wrong, when I was in your shoes I was just as inconsistent as day and night, and my exH was as consistent as ever--he did not want the M and would not do anything to recover it. Period. I tried this and that...I tried to "make" him...I tried tricks and manipulation and suggestions and on and on!! Sometimes I wanted the M and sometimes I was so sick of it and hurt that I said: "Screw this!" and sometimes I felt so confused I wanted to throw up from the spinning rollercoaster ride!

My head started to clear, and my fog started to clear when I started to face reality and I started to face myself. I started to see that *I* was the one acting all inconsistent--and I was not only giving mixed messages but I was also being inconsistent with the woman I am and the kind of person I wanted to be. See, Harry, can you tell I'm a fairly funny, optimistic, happy, upbeat person?? I enjoy life and rarely get mad because I don't want to use my energy that way. I have lots of fun, play on a regular basis, and surround myself with love. But when I was with my WH, I was sad, serious, unhappy, and depressing. I was always heavy and needy. I had become angry, naggy, b*tchy, demanding, grouchy, and even screamed and yelled more and more often! It wasn't ME. I was letting myself become something that was not a reflection of the real me!

So, I decided to let my WH worry about himself and his issues, and I kept my focus on me and my issues and my choices. I did decide that I wanted my M, but I was not willing to be abused or endure ongoing infidelities. I began to become myself by drinking grape juice again (one of my favs that I just never drank anymore), by rolling down hills in the grass (silly fun that grown ups don't let themselves do), by swinging and coloring (things I love to do and just stopped doing). When my WH would try to engage me in an arguement by pushing my buttons, I would not engage. Pure and simple. I kind of envisioned standing next to a tornado without letting myself be pulled in. He can spin around and destroy and be angry all he wants, I'm not joining in! I PRACTICED saying stuff like, "That may be your opinion, but mine differs greatly" or "Thank you for telling me that. I appreciate your honesty and I would like to think about it" or "So what you're saying is that you (thought or felt)... Boy, I bet that hurt." If I wanted to be a funny, happy, optimistic woman, then I had to ACT that way.

Same for you, Harry. See??

(BTW, you don't want to be a funny, happy, optimistic woman do ya??) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So for you, I think there are two things that might be where you could start.

#1--Get your words and actions matching. If you want to save your M, then get your ACTIONS acting that way. Slow yourself down 1/2 second and ask yourself "If I do this, does this action demonstrate that I want to save this M?" If you want your WW to have some heavy, deep, reconnecting, that is a reasonable request--but be honest and say that! Don't SAY "I want to be all light and fun and non-deep" and then resent when she is all light and fun and non-deep. Say, "I understand you would like to see more of the fun Harry, and I will be more playful and silly. I will have more fun time with you. And I would like you to have a deeper, reconnecting moment with me. This is what my heart craves. So can I suggest a whole evening of going mini-golfing and just enjoying playing together, followed by 1/2 hour of some reconnecting activity that you feel comfortable with?" See?? SAY what you want, and ACT what you SAY. And don't be too overwhelming and try for everything at once...if you give a limit (like a time limit or one question, etc.) it lets you know that there is an end in site and it won't go on forever. Okay??

#2--Give to your WW what you want her to give to you. Now, see how I'm not saying "wear your heart on your sleeve" or "completely open yourself up for attack"--but rather, if you want your WW to give you something, are you willing to give that same thing?? I'd venture a guess that you can understand that she also feels afraid and vulnerable, so if you want her to be brave, raise yourself to that same standard too and be brave. Specifically, I would suggest that you start small and make a mini-step toward her--and then give her the opportunity to make a mini-step toward you. Something neither one of you is completely comfortable with, but also something that's not TOO scary. As an example, what if you were to say to her, "As I understand it, you want me to move home and I'm not quite comfortable with that yet. What if I moved SOME of my things home to stay all weekend, and on the day that I move my weekend things home, that very day we sit down and WRITE and SEND a no-contact letter together?" This way, she gets a step toward what she wants, and you get a step toward what you want.

If you are not willing to give your WW what you want her to give to you, what will very likely happen is that you will keep asking HER to make the first move/step, and she will keep asking YOU to make the first move/step, and no one will move. After a while, you get where you are now Harry--frustrated with the lack of movement. Thus, sometimes the way to break a stalemate like that is to make the first move.

So what are you comfortable with? Can I help you with your thoughts and ideas? Can I help you figure out how to word your proposed move and how to present it to her? See, there's lots you can and could be doing to get this ball rolling! And just so you know there is NO WAY you can get her to buy into this. You can present it as a respectful request, and she has to want to do it ON HER OWN. Then it will really work! A respectful request would look something like this:

"I recall that at one point you asked if we could do marriage counseling half hour at a time or over the phone or something. Well, I did some research and discovered we can! It's called marriage coaching, and it's a lot like sports coaching. We have certain exercises and assignments to do. We get a plan that we work on together and we are both comfortable with. We practice and practice until we can do it right. We take one step at a time and make progress. And the coach encourages us to keep on working. I think that sounds like it might be helpful and I feel a little hopeful. Would you consider marriage coaching and working on that with me?"

THEN BE QUIET and let her decide. It can either be YES, NO, or some proposal or request of her own (like "I would consider it, but can I vote on whether I like the coach?")

Chin up, Harry. You're doing well!


CJ

Doing well? Where? Yes, I did tie my own shoes this morning, but I think that's the extent of my doing well. I have done a lot of soul searching and have found that my heart is sometimes too big and too loud. I know why I'm so inconsistent. It's because my heart is driving me so hard that it drowns out my common sense.

Like you CJ, I am normally a different person. I'm the logical ENTP that gets things done. I despise inaction and am always pushing forward even if it's in the wrong direction (I can always do a 180 after I find out). I am not a detail person. I see the big picture and have don't have the patience for the pixels. My wife on the other hand is a detail person that has issues seeing the big picture. When we work together we're an awesome team that has accomplished some pretty impressive feats.

BUT

I think our greatest asset is also our greatest liability. We have problems getting each other to see out viewpoints. When we work together we just fall into some sort of groove and it works.

I like your #1 and #2. And yes we are waiting for each other to take that step.

Someone come sweep the cobwebs off me while I wait.

oh one more thing. We're both very stubborn and admit it (well I admit it, she just says she's set in her ways).

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: HarryS ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: HarryS ]</small>

Harry,

Why did you delete your last post? What's up? Are you okay??


CJ

hit quote instead of edit..... my bad. Everything is.....

hummm
ok?

I hope no one is offended if I break in on this thread just to bring out a minor point that isn't really related to the health of HarryS's marriage.

I thought when Bob Hope died that I read in the retrospectives that he had been a pretty consistent philanderer and rather inattentive of his wife -- up until his health started to fail. At which point she became "his rock." I remember thinking it was a terribly sad story for her -- she waited her entire life for her husband to treat her right, and when he finally came around, it was really because he needed something from her. Until then, he had allow his career, friendships, and extramarital relationships to fill his EN.

But perhaps I'm remembering it wrong?

Hi All. I'm back! Yes, I would like to interject and say that I really wish people wouldn't look up to celebrities as role models. Cause come-on, for reals, how well does an average person know a celebrity??? Unless he or she is related or is friends or grew up with the person (but even then -- no guarantee). Just watching him or her on the big screen or reading niceties about them does not mean the person is an upstanding and moral person. You only believe what you see and make opinions based only on the information you are given.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ugh! You peeps take life WAY too seriously! Forget the facts; I was talking about perceived traits. I never met John Wayne or Bob Hope, but I did perceive them in a certain way (which most people do and did). The qualities they personified on the public side were those that I was referring to not the people themselves. You don't see me sporting a golf club over my shoulder and a six gun at my side. But I do like to 'Stand Tall' and toss a sly grin occassionaly.

I hate what they did to Bing Crosby after his death and it seems that people don't care about anything other than book sales.

UPDATE:

Ok, so with no further adieu I started my mission to reclass Harry as Harry=fun/love/someone she wants to be with. I called today and asked her out. She said yes and told me she would be home at 6 or 6:30. I told her great I'd pick her up a bit after then.

Got there at 7. She was doing some cleaning and I could tell she was in a sour mood as I got just the barest of nods. I stood and waited for 15 minutes for her to finish.
When we got in the truck to leave she made a comment about being unhappy with DD living there. I told her ok, I would move her in with me tomorrow. Then I asked her if she felt like going out and she made a rude comment about anything being better that staying there.
I thought for a sec that this was going to be a wasted evening, but decided to give it my best shot. Went to dinner and there was a slight warming with a little conversation. After dinner we went to a movie. During which I tried to hold her hand. After about 10 seconds she pulled away and that was that.
I was planning on doing some other things after the movie, but decided against it since the whole thing was going so badly. Went back to the the house and she asked if I wanted to take the dogs on a walk with her. Did that, tried to hold her hand and she jerked away again.
After that played a little xbox then I left. No talks, just tried to do the fun stuff.

You know I didn't expect anything to happen tonight, but it seems to me I could have been with a complete stranger and had more engagement. I know this is a slow process this reconnecting business, but toss a guy a bone occassionaly. I mean if this were our first date it probably would have been our last.

UPDATE #2

W called me Saturday afternoon and we chatted for a bit about how lazy we were being, made a date to go and have a late lunch and play pool at DD's work. Had a pretty good time and after tried to get her to go ply mini golf and race cars. She was not at all into that due to the heat. So we just hung out and drove around. Crashed a tech fair and then I suddenly started feeling bad. Went back to the house and laid down on the couch for a bit then went out for some soup. Later went and saw The Village with W and DD then took them home and left. A bit better than the night before, but still not really close to being engaging.

Today W called me 16 times before I realized it. I had my phone muted. Called her back and we chatted a bit. I told her I was going to do some mods on my computer and she asked me to do it over there. So I packed up my stuff and hauled it over there. W was wanting to play a game and I told her sure, right afer I finish. Wife played a bit by herself and then fell asleep. I finished about 30 minutes later and woke her asking if she'd like to play now. No answer and she closed her eyes. I waited a couple of minutes then turned the game off and got my things ready to leave. W wakes up and gets all hacked off. We get into a semi arguement and I bail after she accused me of pestering her. She calls me an hour later to apoligize for being a [censored] and I apoligize for leaving in a huff. Then she says, "well don't ever let it happen again".

WTF?

Needless to say the conversation took a turn for the worse.

All in all not what I was wanting to happen this weekend. W still not even semi engaged with me. For a bit today I tried to show her some affection, but it was like planting seeds on stone.

Harry,

Howdy, buddy (in my best John Wayne voice).

Dude, you know me. I am ALL FOR saving this marriage and putting in the time and effort necessary to save it, but even the best marriage can not be saved by one...so what I'm about to say is not said lightly.

Based on what you described, I'm going to make an assumption--that your side of the story is basically the way it was. Now that is a pretty big assumption, but it's all the information I have to work with! Anyway, it sounds to me as if your analysis is pretty close to correct...you're wife is not engaging in the process of reconciling the marriage.

At this time, you have stuck out your neck a little bit and made the effort to try to have fun with her (and don't forget to also make the effort to have your own fun); and you have also made the effort to give her some counseling options: #1--counseling with your old counselor (but she doesn't have 1/2 hour appointments or telelphone appt.), #2--coaching, which does have 1/2 hour and telephone appt. but isn't someone she knows, #3--learning stuff on MB and doing EN questionnaires etc. to get the healing process started. So far, she asked you not to go to the lawyer, and then thereafter has "hung out" with you but has not really made much of a movement or plan toward making a movement.

Sooooo...I suggest that you consider something and work with me on it. Actions speak louder than words, and you and I have spoken on many occasions about how a person is trustworthy when their words and actions match--and not trustworthy when their words say one thing and their actions say another. I think it is time to get really, really honest with yourself and your wife and figure out your top three issues. Let's work together to see if we can get it very concise and succinct--as well as being able to verbalize what you are asking her to do AND setting an immediate timeframe.

Let me give you an example. One day one of my dearest, wisest friends said something to me that changed my life. She said, "Sometimes when a person says yes but then doesn't do it, what they mean is no. They just are trying to avoid the conflict by saying yes. If a person says yes and is not willing to do something about it pretty much right away, what they mean is no."

I thought about what she said and I did exactly what I am suggesting you do. I narrowed it down to my top three issues:
#1-a mutually happy relationship where both of our needs are met, including being faithful
#2-addressing (not denying) diabetes, bipolar, and borderline personality disorder
#3-protecting me from his abusive raging

I decided in my own personal situation that I did not need to "dictate" the plan to recovering in these three areas, but rather that I would be willing to let him create a plan that he was completely comfortable with as long as he addressed it somehow. So one day, I just sat him down and said, "I need to know your plans on addressing these three issues, and I need to have that plan put into action in three days." Well, he was unwilling to do that, so I knew that he really did not want to meet any of my needs or remain faithful to me...that he really did not intend to address his mental illnesses...and that he really did not intend to protect me from his domestic violence.

Within some reason, I believe we need to do a similar thing with your wife. She is completely free to come up with a plan that she is comfortable with, but she hs to do something. Otherwise, what she's effectively saying is that she does not WANT to do anything. Either way, you will have your answer.

Soooo...your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to think tonight and tomorrow about what your 3 main issues are. Narrow it down into clear, concise wording as best as you can, and then email that to me, and I'll help ya word it just a little more precisely. Okay?? Are you willing to do this assignment??


CJ

OMG! The Mission Impossible Virus!

Ack! Your going to make my computer self destruct?


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and I liked this computer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


Oh, btw... You got mail!

<small>[ August 03, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: HarryS ]</small>