<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Lost,
Have you considered talking to the Harleys? I mean just to talk about what you should do, how long you should give him, whether he&#8217;s ever likely to recover given what&#8217;s gone on until now. No one posting here has much experience but these guys have counseled a lot of marriages. Your case is unique, but they deal with lots of infidelity, where the betrayed partner has to decide to get past it and work on the marriage. Maybe they have a professional opinion as to where this is all going. Maybe they would give you a prognosis in a session or two(by yourself, not with H). Does your H have the love in him to release all this bitterness eventually? I would think a professional could get a sense of that. (I don&#8217;t know the Harleys, btw. I&#8217;ve never spoken with them.)

Maybe going all the way to the edge is premature after one year, but perhaps you two could agree on a decision date. At that date he could say whether he&#8217;s willing to give you a chance or if he can see that he'll never recover.

You both have to consider what kind of marriage you may end up with even if he cools off but never moves forward. Will he hold you in contempt for the rest of your life? Is that any kind of life for either of you?

He says he will keep his promise to you and stay married. But if he'll never love you again then the promise is worthless. Fact is, if he really wanted out, I think he'd leave. I think the promise thing is an excuse. Probably, in his heart he knows he needs you. If he were forced to face life without you, and if you avoid triggering his pride, he would start backing down. He won&#8217;t focus on what he has to lose until he really looks into the abyss.

I tend to think Hol should do the same thing. Set a date and decide by that time to either ask his wife to marry him all over again, or leave her alone. Being married is something we need to own, not do by default.

Probably both of these guys need to be shown that they are making a real choice to stay. That they are not prisoners and they cannot call their wives their shackles.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

What a feeling to live with...

What's up, HOL?

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

I&#8217;m still here buddy. You really put a lot of your true emotions into that last post, and I really can see where you&#8217;re hurting. I hope I can think of something that will help you.

I actually am wondering something: if you and liar2 have ever really applied yourselves to the MB program in all it's glory? You know, Emotional needs and love bank and all, filling out the forms, doing it all formally. Many of us are really just using the board but not trying the program. I actually think this stuff really works and deserves a chance. What's your experience?

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

as much as i try to stay out of this discussion so that HOL can reep the benefit of the advise here without me butting in i must at this point protest. we have both read the concepts of mb and have printed out copies of the concepts. i admit to having given up on the process but mainly because HOL only wants to address the radical honesty section and disreguards every other concept. i just don't think you can feel radically honest with anyone without feeling secure and loved as well.

HOL speaks of mental abuse for 11 years and it is true that i made negative comments and criticisms of his past behavior with women but i now know it wasn't the behavior that bothered me it was his sense of pride about doing what he did.

i have told him coutless times that i have never compared him to anyone and though this is true it comes from my mouth so has little to no validity.

in working with a psycologist much of my early childhood experiences have revealed some theories as to why i behaved as i did in the past and how i have handled things in my marriage but if they don't suport HOL's theories they have no validity.

if it weren't so serious it would be laughable to call HOL a mouse. he is in total control of so much of his life. he is respected and successful in his field of work but he is also feared a bit as he is demanding and exacting of others and works as hard as ten men.

he is talented beyond belief, artistically in his singing abilities and his eye for design as well as in his skill at problem solving.

he is the most interesting and funny man alive when he's "on" and he is a generous man. he is the second son in a family of 7 and yet he is the one all go to for advise and help. he would defend those he loves literally to the death of need be.

he is not perfect and he is responcible for part of what was happening those 11 years as was i but it was between the two of us not some long forgotten past of mine. i was wrong in not revealing this past to him but i was not harboring any desire to relive it.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Hi, Hol.

I hope you don't mind my joining this conversation. I've been reading along for a while, just lurking. The number question has been a real biggie in my marriage, too. My number is much higher than my H knew before we married, but I didn't intentionally mislead him, I just never came right out with the whole radically honest truth. I didn't see any point, as I assumed (correctly) that it would hurt him, and it also didn't occur to me that that's something my partner needed to know. What came before I met him, I thought, was irrelevant.

Turns out it isn't irrelevant. It's taken a long time for me to come to grips with the pain I caused my DH when the truth finally came out. At first I wanted him to forget it, just let it go, but after a while of him hiding it, I would think everything was fine (isn't selective blindness great?) only to find out he was becoming withdrawn. What finally happened is that he looked closely at the person I am NOW. He DECIDED that I was worth hanging onto, pain and all. I don't pretend that what he did was easy, but you have a choice, HOL. I can see that L2 loves you enormously, just from that last post. Can you? Doesn't it mean anything to you?

I'm not suggesting you forget. No way. Forgetting just means sweeping it under the rug to fester. I'm saying look at your W, the person she has become, not the child she was when all that happened. Go and create some new/current memories of good times, make sure you let her know that even through the pain you want her. I know it seems like it's already been forever, and it will even take more time, but slowly you can do it.

If Radical Honesty is the only thing you want from her, it sounds like you've already left the building. IMHO, you want a closeness with her that includes honesty, but as part of a package. Please have compassion for yourself. Let yourself work on other things, other aspects of your relationship. L2 is worth it and so are you.

T

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Thanks for the welcome. You may regret it after what I have to say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "If I’m not mistaken you’re upset with the fact that she out-‘skanked’ you....

No Roscoe it's the dishonesty..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you have left the building? I can understand being really, really upset over your situation with your W, but you have to stop banging your head against a wall of "she lied, she lied." Don't we all err? At what point is she beyond forgiveness? According to MB priciples, even an affair DURING your marriage can be forgiven. And if she's beyond forgiveness, why are you even discussing this?!? Just leave. Those are the choices, leave or move past this.

You are torturing yourself. You are doing this, and you can stop. Your W says you now know everything, and she says her abuse is behind her. Either doubt her or don't, but it's time to put your abuse behind you.

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

this is my last post. i will continue to work on saving my marriage but i'm going to let HOL have this site as his tool to coming to terms with his emotions. thanks to all who continue to respond.

How about an update from lost?

Hey all - I'm still here. I didn't post back last week because everything suddenly seemed so trivial.

A good friend of mine that I've worked with for over ten years lost her 8 year old daughter this past Monday, July 29. The family was on vacation and she just walked in front of a car the Friday before. She never woke up and after three days in the ICU at the Children's Hospital, the family decided to donate her organs and just like that she was gone. I attended her funeral Friday morning.

I also have an 8 year old daughter - in fact this friend of mine and I were very close during our pregnancies and our girls were only two weeks apart. My heart is breaking for their loss and I look at my daughter now with an entirely different appreciation of her presence in our life.

You never know what tomorrow may bring and I am not wasting any more time worrying about things I can not change. I've spent this last year fighting tears most of the time, feeling less than worthwhile, and even sometimes wishing I was dead. I haven't been the best mom to my kids this past year because of these issues, but it's all going to change.

Things with H are better. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we go another round, but I'm determined to rise above it. Succumbing to the depression and hopelessness only makes everything worse. Instead, I'll turn my focus to the kids. I'm just so thankful that the decisions I made in the past had no lasting repercussions and I'm still alive. I'm so thankful that I have two wonderful children and I will never take that for granted again. I am thankful for my husband who is still with me even after everything I've done to him. I will continue to fight for him and hopefully someday he'll trust me again.

I guess I really don't have much else to say. I know I've caused my H more pain than he deserves, but I think this whole thing we've gone through in the last week has opened up both of our eyes as to how quickly your life can change. I saw real pain, irreversible pain. I can't get the picture out of my mind. My problems don't even begin to compare....