I'm asking you'all to basically either back me up and tell me I'm hopelessly out of step.

Remember Mr. Wonderful from last week? The "help with a new relationship" guy who I was a little impressed with and who I was starting to like? And one of your responses to me was to trust my instincts? Well my instincts are uncomfortable...

I sat next to him at D's school, and he asked me out to coffee. Cool--we met there and we each bought our own, and we talked for a couple hours. It was fun, and I got an initially positive feeling--and was pretty happy when he asked me out again and we set up for Sat. nite, 8:30pm to be casual and "hang out." At the end of the coffee-date, he went in for the kiss and tried to round second, but I just backed away and chalked it up to "nice try" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . During the week, he sent me some flowers (scoring some deposits--YAY), and we talked on the phone once for about 1 1/2 hours--all the while it seemed to me as if he was interested in me and what I had to say, etc. Likewise, I was impressed by his answers and was GREATLY looking forward to Saturday night!

Sooooo...last night was the big night. I was ready and beautiful, the house was cleaned up, the kids were squeaky clean (haha), and he showed up right on time wearing cute jeans and sandals! Here's the trouble though. Several times during the night he made comments about wanting to get into the bedroom, wanting to touch (edited physical areas), or other sexual comments. It made me uncomfortable! I wasn't uncomfortable because I'm a sexual prude, but it was like these constant little comments about sex, sex, sex--and I just thought it was INAPPROPRIATE!!!

Last night he had to get home to his kids, so it kind of just ended--but it left me feeling not so great. I thought about it during the day, coming to my own conclusion, and I decided that I am NOT comfortable with what happened, and that I need to speak up for how I really do feel. So that is not my issue. Here's my issue:

I was expecting that 42yo, divorced dating would be more mature and experienced then 20yo dating. I was expecting at least one or two dates just to get to know if we have the potential to get along,; then I'd start to feel a little "Woohoo!" and he would feel "Woohoo" for me; then we go to more serious dates like he'd take me to dinner or to a concert/show; then we'd hold hands and kiss; then he'd be a gentleman and let me take the lead on moving any further.

Is this unreasonable? I know it's 2004, but I'm not a piece of meet and I'm not looking for a quick thrill! I'm looking for someone who thinks I'm the bomb and respects me!

When I was first divorced, I remember thinking that when I chose to start dating I would have no trouble finding several gentlemen because I'm a wonderful person. Boy, was I shocked to discover that so many men were visual-based only and looking for a quick piece of meat!! Okay...I adjusted to that and found someone that I thought was a higher quality person, and boy am I shocked again! Am I totally naive to think that in 2004 dating is about a RELATIONSHIP and not about a quick roll in the hay?? Are people in 2004 expecting sex on the second date?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


CJ

CJ,

Of course I'm not even out on the dating scene yet, and don't intend to be for quite some time, but I absolutely DON'T think you are in the wrong here!!

I may end up single forever for my beliefs (a big, big, HUGE, BIG fear of mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), but I truly belief if Mr. Right comes along, he will respect you enough to wait until YOU are ready. And if YOU aren't ready and he pushes you, then he isn't Mr. Right.

(And to throw this little laugh in, I didn't wait until M the first time around. I waited until I was 15 1/2 and had dated my boyfriend for about 5 months. If I find myself dating again, I have made a commitment to wait until M this time. Go ahead everyone...laugh! All my close friends/coworkers have. And I'm not a sexual prude either. But I truly believe God tells us to "wait" for a reason. It is what is best for us.)

So hang in there CJ. If this guy is the right one, he'll cool off. If he doesn't, then I don't think he's "it".

LL

I'm quite a bit younger than in my 40's and I will tell you even from my perspective Mr. Wonderful's behavior was tacky and juvenile. Yes, a lot of people do expect sex on the second date but it's not at all unusual for it not to happen and it's very inappropriate for someone to bring it up constantly like that. Like I said, it's highly tacky and says to me that the guy is either clueless at reading people or like you feared was just looking for a quick piece of *ss.

I would bring it up if it made you uncomfortable and you want to give this guy another chance. How he reacts will speak volumes about his character and give you a clue into what he's really after.

Dear CJ,
I think the vote is in ! You're absolutely fine to say "NO" !And further more even if the vote was otherwise, you still have the last say . It's your body after all, you owe it to NO ONE !
Unfortunately, times have changed some peoples expectations......TOO BAD !
I agree with NDuli2.... How he handles things when you are up front and explain how you feel, will pretty well firm things up.
This attitude seems quite common with young folk today, but at your more sophisticated position in life, you expect respect and certainly don't have to settle for anything less. Good luck with your plan, WA

Dear CJ-

You are definately not a prude. I am a few years younger than you and don't consider myself a prude either. You are not out of line with your feelings. Furthermore, even if you were a prude, it is your body and emotions we are talking about here.

I agree that you should give him another chance and you should be open about your feelings. How he responds will tell you what you need to do. It has been my experience that most men, even the good ones, are horn dogs in general. Sorry guys! Furthermore, I think many men are as uncomfortable with this dating thing as we are and as dumb as it sounds he may have been doing what he thought you wanted.

I wish you the best. You deserve it.

Take care and God bless!
K

Well, if I'm out-of-step, I couldn't care less. If I dated someone who pushed for sex on the second date, there wouldn't be a third one. My values are Biblically-based, and I'm not interested in pursuing a relationship with someone who doesn't share them, no matter how attractive that person might otherwise be.

I would rather remain single for the rest of my life than to compromise on my values.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still reeling:
<strong>It has been my experience that most men, even the good ones, are horn dogs in general.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guilty as charged, but some of us have values, enough self-control to live by them, and enough respect for other people to show some restraint.

I can't even imagine sex, and especially not on the second date.
My thoughts are that people interested in sex or obsessed with body parts are typically immature.
I have yet to enter the dating scene, but I do think the same way as you.
Trust your instincts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by newly:
<strong> I can't even imagine sex</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Want me to draw you a picture to see if it jogs your memory? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Cindy, Cindy, Cindy you are so out of touch. If I don't get sex on the 1st date then I don't have a second one. Maybe that explains why I haven't really had a 1st or 2nd date..Hmmmm....

All seriousness aside now, to me that is a HUGE RED FLAG. This ain't high school, it's life and he obviously isn't striving for the same results as you. Throw the flowers in the trash, erase his number from your cell, and the next time he calls tell him and I quote "Kick rocks Beeeach".

Now Miss CJ I have a question for you. Why was this man at your house with your kids on the second date anyway?

CJ,

My vote is also that he was way out of line--but something you should consider is this--

was he 'expecting' to have sex with you? or was he just 'wanting' to have sex with you? as they are two different perspectives--

He *may* have been trying to find out if you would--and then decide if this is how she is--then will she have sex with everyone she dates?

Or

he may be a complete and total jerk and really think that having sex by the second date is what everyone does--especially boy's--because if he can't get you to have sex with him--then he must not be a *man*--and there must be something wrong with him--(a childish attitude, but a lot of adult boy's do think this way)

Please notice the term I used there--adult boy's
(and I'm sure many of the male's on this form will get upset when they read that, and that's okay) but it's what I have found to be true--

Boy's get upset if they don't get what they want--
Men accept that they don't always get what they want and are okay with it--because they respect you--

Boy's think only of themselves and what they can get from a girl--

Men think of the woman and what they can do to please her--because he's learned the value of who she is as person--

Boy's will take anything they can get for free--

Men are willing to pay any price to attain what they desire--

Take a look at Judah, Joseph's brother (Gen. 43) he was willing to take full responsibility and blame if he did not return his brother Benjamin home to their father--then what happened? He was put to the test--

Joseph had his servants put his gold cup in Benjamin's sack--and Judah offered himself and all of his brothers up to Joseph as slaves--Joseph's response was--No, That's not fair, the rest of you go home--and I'll just keep Benjamin here as my slave--and they would have to go home to their father and tell him his beloved son was taken into slavery--knowing this would kill their father--Judah learned to put another's happiness before his own--even if it cost him his own life--

And it's the same for girls--Boy's need to learn and understand the value of the girl--in order for them to say they 'really' love her--and know that she's more than a piece of meat, more than just a piece of property--to control--

CJ, Did your father step in and try and protect you from boy's you dated?? did he try and hold the boy's accountable? And did you try and stop him? (which is normal, as girls are designed to nurture, and not want to see other's suffer)especially not the boy they love--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>He *may* have been trying to find out if you would--and then decide if this is how she is--then will she have sex with everyone she dates?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but I just can't buy this. Any kind of "test" that undermines one's own credibility in this way is so foolish that it would call the man's judgment into question as much as the more obvious motivation for his overtures.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Please notice the term I used there--adult boy's (and I'm sure many of the male's on this form will get upset when they read that, and that's okay)...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, yeah, now you've done it! How dare you use an apostrophe in "boy's" and "male's" when you spell "girls" correctly without the apostrophe. If you must diss us on our maturity, couldn't you at least grant us the minor respect of correct grammar usage? Grrr... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (oops, bad acting, let me try again...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (there, that's better)

Every time I read TR's comments, I'm more amazed at the depth of her knowledge and her perceptiveness.

My friends and I have a better word for this:
ManChild. I was married to one of these. There immaturity shows (although they can act to hide it for some time).

Sadly, many of us need to break the pattern of being attracted to the ManChild. I can see it in friends when we go out. (And I'm sure there is a similar description for women too, I just don't know the term).

Holy Smoke! Apparently this is a topic near to a few hearts here! I posted at almost midnight and by 8:30am it's a coffee clatch!

lordslady--I don't think I'm wrong here either. In fact, that's the one thing I'm really positive about...this IS who I am and how I will conduct myself, so that's not going to change. The part I was a little unsure of was whether that's really the current "dating scene" expectation (cuz if so, I'm in TROUBLE!! Heehee). Anyway, I appreciate your suggestion that "...if he's the right guy he'll cool off" because to be honest with you my initial reaction was to just run away! I think it would be a more mature response to at least use WTFS format and tell him what I was thinking and feeling.

Nduli--You hit a very important nail on the head when you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it's highly tacky and says to me that the guy is either clueless at reading people or like you feared was just looking for a quick piece of *ss.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In retrospect, I'm not positive which it is (clueless or quick piece) but he did already tell me that he is lacking in social development. I wonder if at least a piece of this puzzle is that HE is the one who's out-of-step, not me. I mean, in the '70's when we were both 20-something, some folks did expect sex on the second date (pre-herpes, pre-AIDS, but not pre-morals!)

Warm ashes--Howdy! Hey I am completely comfortable with saying no. That is me and that is my decision. I guess I was just surprised to run into this kind of behavior so early! Wasn't ready for that. I agree with the idea of stating my mind using WTFS "When you___, I Think___, I Feel___, So I'm going to ask___." That way I have voiced my concerns, and his reaction will be telltale. I guess I'm honestly concerned to even consider continuing with someone who would act like this AT ALL!! Clueless or not, I felt like this was pretty major disrespect to me.

still reeling--You know, I considered what you said when you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I think many men are as uncomfortable with this dating thing as we are and as dumb as it sounds he may have been doing what he thought you wanted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that may be "conceivable" but unlikely, because I did not act like I wanted the attempt-to-round-second on the first date, nor did I act in any way like it was a positive thing when he kept pursuing the topic on the second date. It would make sense if he tried it once--thinking this is what women expect--but then once I backed away, stopped trying. The continuing to bring up sex when I was clearly NOT wanting it, was crossing the line to me. Yes, he could be clueless, it's true--but once someone says "NO" doesn't that mean stop??? Yes!!!

GDP--First...HI!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (waving) I'm glad to see you!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Anyway, I love what you wrote and how you think--and it is right in line with what I was thinking/expecting. Indeed, most men are horn dogs and have a strong sexual drive, but: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... some of us have values, enough self-control to live by them, and enough respect for other people to show some restraint. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the thing, I think, that has caused me to want to just run away. We've only met on a dating level TWICE (of course, I've known him from D's school for about a year), and already he's behaving disrespectfully toward me to this degree!!!! That does NOT bode well with me!!!

newly--I can imagine sex. I do imagine it every now and then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But last time around I did things rather backwards (20+ yo, got sexual fast, got emotionally involved, and years later discovered abusive personality, disorders, etc.) , and this time around I wanted it to be entirely different. You know what they say, right? If it's the same, it'll be the same--if what you did isn't working, do it different! I'm just wondering how possible it is to become emotionally and spiritually intimate with a man who acts on this level??? My guess is that it's highly unlikely!!!

Bill, Bill, Bill--honestly, I am surprised you even speak to me. After all, we've been friends for YEARS now and still no SEX!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> BTW, would you mind faxing that picture to me?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Otherwise, I agree with you. I was so stunned at first, but overall, I feel like it's a HUGE RED FLAG too...like 90 ft x 180 ft.!!!

TR--as usual, right on the money. You wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...was he 'expecting' to have sex with you? or was he just 'wanting' to have sex with you? as they are two different perspectives </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I did consider this. I mean, it would be the littlest bit flattering if we were just getting along so well and childishly giddy that he "wanted" to have sex. Of course most guys "want" it. The differentiation for me was continuing to bring it up and bring it up and bring it up. If I were to say, "Gee, I'm so excited, and I look forward to the day we might have sex" that's one expression--but dropping it into conversation all night, "...let's get to the bedroom" "will we be alone?" "when is alone time?" "I'd be more comfortable in the bedroom" and stearing the topic back and back and back to sexual topics. It felt like EXPECTATION to me!!!

You also suggested: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He *may* have been trying to find out if you would--and then decide if this is how she is--then will she have sex with everyone she dates?

Or

he may be a complete and total jerk and really think that having sex by the second date is what everyone does--especially boy's--because if he can't get you to have sex with him--then he must not be a *man*--and there must be something wrong with him--(a childish attitude, but a lot of adult boy's do think this way)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmm...if it were the first option, and he's just trying to find out if I will, I would actually be angry about that. Exactly WHO tests someone like that on a second date?? I mean, at first when you're getting to know someone a lot of the questions/answers are like mini-tests...but this is way too over the top, way too soon!

My intuition says it's more likely the second option, only perhaps not that he's that big of a "jerk" and more likely an adult boy who is completely clueless how to interact with a woman on a mature level. Sooo...if that's the case, exactly why would I consider giving him another chance again?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Finally, and in conclusion, TR you asked a bone-crunching question: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ, Did your father step in and try and protect you from boy's you dated?? did he try and hold the boy's accountable? And did you try and stop him? (which is normal, as girls are designed to nurture, and not want to see other's suffer)especially not the boy they love</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect maybe you forgot, but my father sexually molested me as a child, so not only did he NOT protect me from the boys I dated, he did not protect me from HIM!! In a strange way, I was lucky as a teen Sex Abuse Survivor--my very first boyfriend was a keeper...more of a friend who turned into a crush. He was very slow, very respectful, and let me set the pace (which was unusual in the late '70s), and since he was a fella from my church whom I respected, it was a completely different model of the way that behavior should be than what happened with my dad.

Wierd, huh?? So, no. My dad did not protect me from my boyfriends, and I did not defend them or try to stop my dad. He didn't really hold anyone (including himself) accountable. That's pretty much always been me holding myself accountable to my own standard.


CJ

GnomeDePlume,

--Sorry, but I just can't buy this. Any kind of "test" that undermines one's own credibility in this way is so foolish that it would call the man's judgment into question as much as the more obvious motivation for his overtures.--

TR--I agree it would be foolishness--but it really does happen and as you so aptly stated--

"some of us have values, enough self-control to live by them, and enough respect for other people to show some restraint."

Oh, yeah, now you've done it! How dare you use an apostrophe in "boy's" and "male's" when you spell "girls" correctly without the apostrophe. If you must diss us on our maturity, couldn't you at least grant us the minor respect of correct grammar usage? Grrr... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (oops, bad acting, let me try again...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (there, that's better) --

TR--I don't know whether to laugh or not--as I know on one level your joking--but on another very serious--(I really should use proper grammar)
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but I really wasn't meaning to dis males--as not all grown males are immature--just as not all grown females are mature--but on the issue of sex-for both girls and women--it's the way they seal the emotional bond they have with boys/men--
boys/men however, do not bond with girls/women through the act of sex--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>TR--I don't know whether to laugh or not--as I know on one level your joking--but on another very serious--(I really should use proper grammar) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if you don't laugh, I hope it's only because the joke wasn't really that funny. What I thought was most amusing about it (if I am permitted to laugh at my own joke) is that flame wars often include disparaging remarks about spelling and grammar - as if such an ad hominem argument had any merit. So, I thought it would be fun to make an immature response to an argument for the immaturity of a class of individuals of which I happen to be arguably a part - thus reinforcing your point.

OK, so it was lame - and my explanation even lamer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Oh, well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>...but on the issue of sex-for both girls and women--it's the way they seal the emotional bond they have with boys/men--
boys/men however, do not bond with girls/women through the act of sex-- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I've never really believed this. Maybe I'm just naive, or maybe I'm not really a man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but I've long suspected that in reality sex creates/reinforces an emotional bond for both women and men - unless they are dis-integrated emotionally. This lack of integration seems to be more common with men, and that, I believe, is the reason for the gender stereotype.

My own sexual experience is severely limited; but for myself, I have no desire to add to that experience without a strong emotional and spiritual bond and the belief that it is wise to make that bond as strong as possible. In other words, I would have to be engaged to be married. At that point I can imagine a conflict between my desires and my values (since sex outside of marriage is not permissible in my value system) - but that's where self-control and respect must be applied.

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: GnomeDePlume ]</small>

FaithfulNewCJ,

--Exactly WHO tests someone like that on a second date?? I mean, at first when you're getting to know someone a lot of the questions/answers are like mini-tests...but this is way too over the top, way too soon! --

TR--Someone who doesn't know how mature relationships are supposed to be--

--My intuition says it's more likely the second option, only perhaps not that he's that big of a "jerk" and more likely an adult boy who is completely clueless how to interact with a woman on a mature level. Sooo...if that's the case, exactly why would I consider giving him another chance again?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

TR--IF he call's again--be honest with him about how his actions and words made you feel--and let him know that is not the type of relationship your wanting--and if that is what he's looking for--then he needs to look elsewhere--

And he will either apologize--or he'll move on to the next person--

And something you said--"I did not act like I wanted the attempt-to-round-second on the first date, nor did I act in any way like it was a positive thing when he kept pursuing the topic on the second date."

However, his perception could be--"You asked if you could sit next to ME at the School event--so therefore you must have been coming on to me--it must be what she wants--as she's being so forward"


--I suspect maybe you forgot, but my father sexually molested me as a child, so not only did he NOT protect me from the boys I dated, he did not protect me from HIM!!

TR--And no I did not forget--which is why I asked the question--

You've never had anyone make a man accountable for how he treats you--and you really need that--yes, even as an adult in the dating world--it could be a brother or a good Christian male friend--

for me while I was dating my husband--it became our pastors--they held him accountable--they challenged him in his choices, and some of his decisions--which in turn prompted his growth--even now that we are married they hold us both accountable--as Christians in our walk with each other in marriage and with God--and it is such a blessing to our marriage--knowing we have someone who support's all aspects--of our marriage and lives who want the best for us--it brings both comfort and security--

You are not accountable to a man you date--but only to God--and your walk with Him--and any man you choose to date should be under the same submission to God--and both should have someone your accountable to outside of the relationship to help keep you on the right path--(just reinforcing something I know you've learned over the past few years)

--Well, if you don't laugh, I hope it's only because the joke wasn't really that funny.

TR--Well, it was both--not that funny and the fact I actually GOT it--remembering back to many of those lame arguements over spelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
which is why I wasn't sure I wanted to laugh--

--You know, I've never really believed this.

TR--because you were taught the truth--not all guy's are--many are sucked into believing the lies

--Maybe I'm just naive, or maybe I'm not really a man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

TR--Actually I think this makes you more of a Man
but hey, that's my opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


--but I've long suspected that in reality sex creates/reinforces an emotional bond for both women and men - unless they are dis-integrated emotionally.

TR--I agree 100%

--This lack of integration seems to be more common with men, and that, I believe, is the reason for the gender stereotype.

TR--And girls grow up believing their own set of lies--

Women--how many have you thought these things in your *youth*?

1. I have to prove my love by having sex with my boyfriend--

2. My boyfriend can't help his sexual urge. The only way he can be satisfied is if I give myself to him sexually--

3. If I give myself to my boyfriend sexually, he will love me--

4. My boyfriend doesn't need to prove he loves me.
I can trust him--

5. I don't need the protection of my father, I can take care of MYSELF!

6. If I make things to difficult for my boyfriend,
I'll lose him (and that's bad)--

And how many of you have known boy's who have this attitude--or who thought these things--

1. I'm not much of a man if I can't get this girl to have sex with me--

2. If you love me you'll have sex with me--

3. I can't help myself once I get excited--(unless of course someone walks in on us)

4. She's only playing hard to get until I convince her I love her--

5. If I tell her love her and want to marry her it will be okay--

6. It's good to want to have sex before we get married--

7. She should trust my promises, not my actions--

There are other's listed--but just for the sake of discussion we'll use these ones--How many of you guy's and gal's have thought these things--or know folks who do??


--My own sexual experience is severely limited; but for myself, I have no desire to add to that experience without a strong emotional and spiritual bond and the belief that it is wise to make that bond as strong as possible.

TR--And that's how it should be--your very blest in this way--even if others don't seem to think so--

--In other words, I would have to be engaged to be married. At that point I can imagine a conflict between my desires and my values (since sex outside of marriage is not permissible in my value system) - but that's where self-control and respect must be applied.--

TR--Notice the struggle even within yourself in this area--and you are a Christian--so imagine how easy it is for those outside of Christ to believe all the lies of the world--

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Whoa!

<rides in to the defense of Men>

Why is it Men that only expect it? Sheesh.... such sexism!

I'll not touch on my premarital dating (too long ago), but my interim dating experience (between my 2 marriages) wasn't that long ago.

I found that in many ways the roles had reversed and that it was women that pushed for sex, sometimes on the first date even. In today's world of desperate people I've found mixed meaning in the old adage, "Women give sex to get love and Men give love to get sex"

CJ, I think you should be thankful that the guy tipped his hand so soon (before you got too invested). Pressuring a girl for sex is pathetic (only slightly less pathetic than a husband pressuring his wife for it).

What's more disturbing to me on this thread is the preconceived ideas that guys are always the sexual aggressors.

newly,


--Every time I read TR's comments, I'm more amazed at the depth of her knowledge and her perceptiveness.

TR-- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Anything I share has come from learning through life's very difficult and oft times painful experiences---

And it's my hope that by sharing, someone else may learn from reading about those experiences and not have to learn them first hand--

I've lived the painful lessons--but I never knew how it should be--that knowledge came by reading about how God intends relationships to be--
and trust me, I've read many relationship books over the past 6 years just to find out--

I got many of those books from my pastor last year when my husband and I went through Pre-marriage counseling--and others while working through my own childhood sexual abuses issues--
and I thank God for taking the time to teach me and for bringing those people into my life that helped teach me--and for being patient with me as I learned--and struggled to accept and process the truths--(some have been right here on MB)
so really it's just God's wisdom imparted to me by others--


--Sadly, many of us need to break the pattern of being attracted to the ManChild. I can see it in friends when we go out. --

TR--This was my goal when I started this journey--
I didn't want to continue making the same mistakes--and following the same patterns I always had--it wasn't working for me--it was apparently working for the men in my life though
as they were happy as clams to keep things as they were--

CJ-
Not sure if you saw my thread about my former BF? I started seeing someone right after my D was final. A nice, christian guy. We dated for about 6 months - and I am sad to say that we become intimate early on - but not on the 2nd date! I have learned a lot from that experience and it is not going to happen again.

After 6 months of dating - things were going well. We had talked about a future together a little bit. No actual M talk - but we talked about trips we wanted to take, stuff like that.
Anyway, the day he broke up with me he said two things:
1. He was no longer comfortable with our physical relationship. That he knows it is wrong, and he is just not able to continue it.
2. he had a problem with my weight.
So item number 1 broke my heart - and item number 2 pissed me off!
When he first told me that he was not comfortable with our physical realtionship I was happy - I figured he cared for me enough that he wanted to do everything right in the eyes of God, in preparation for our future together. I was thrilled to think that I had finally found a man of honor. He did call a couple more times after that, but he said he didn't think he could see me anymore because the temptation would just be too great for him.
Then he told me he had a problem with my weight and I figured he was just an idiot (because I am NOT fat - I swear I'm not!)
Anyway, I realize now that we went to far too fast, and that has made this break up so hard to get over. The phsical act of sex is truly the joining together of two. It is a bonding experience. And I was bonded to him - joined to him. At this point I can say that obviously he was not the right one to bond with - but my heart is still hurting! Even now - after a couple of months - I still hurt a little!

Obviously I don't have all the right anwswers, but I certainly don't plan to get into an intimate realtionship with someone so soon again.