I guess I am still somewhat in shock that some folks here on this board seem to think it is acceptable to say, "Well, he misunderstood your invitation so it's understandable why he had the expectation of sex and treated you disrespectfully. If he UNDERSTOOD he would have treated you respectfully." No it's not!! I sincerely can not fathom that.
It’s not that difficult to understand.
Why do you think it’s not acceptable to say, "he acted a certain way because he misunderstood what you told him?"

No one here said what he did was in any way okay.
Just that he may possibly may have misunderstood your intentions (whether it's because your message was not clear or he did not understand or he did not care to understand or he's a perv or...) and that is possibly why he acted as he did.
You can’t understand that?

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NOTE TO MEN: If a woman says she wants to watch a movie with you, she wants to watch a movie with you. If she says "Want to watch a movie and make out a little?" THEN she wants to watch a movie and make out a little.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you can only say this for yourself, not for all women.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am an articulate, intelligent woman, and when I want something, I am perfectly capable of telling someone in such a way that it is not too puzzling. You will not need your decoder ring! If I say I'd like to get together to have a cup of coffee, that it what I want. If I have a little crush on you, I will say so. If I feel close to you, I will say so. If I think a boundary has been crossed I will say so. It has been my experience that wanting what I say I want is SO MUCH EASIER on everybody. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU have your stuff together, but many, many people do not. Many people do NOT want what they say they want. Many people are used to dealing with people that do not always say what they mean, and rely on mind reading technique <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Probably most of the people you meet will not be at your level of understanding yourself and what you want in your life. If you expect them to be, I think you are going to be disappointed often.

CJ,

I haven't posted to you since the beginning but have been keeping up with the thread. I must say, I'm still with you on this! (Although as I read, I realize that if I ever get back into the dating scene I have a LOT to learn and the hope of my finding a single Christian man who is willing to wait on sex until marriage seems to be virtually nil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Thus, it would seem I probably won't be dating much. And that really stinks. Something I'll have to come to terms with, I guess.

I don't understand why men think that just because they are invited to a woman's house they can now paw the woman. It doesn't seem right to me, and I might have also invited him over had I been in your shoes. My kids (who at 15 and 18 are dating age like yours) invite their friends over, and they actually do sit and watch movies and such from time to time.

And even if he did misinterpret your initial intentions, he should have stopped after the first try. He should NOT have continued to press for sex. Setting him straight once should have gotten the point across.

Like others have said, CJ you have your head screwed on very straight. (And I also see this in all your posts to my threads--they're always right on the mark!).

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> It&#8217;s not that difficult to understand.
Why do you think it&#8217;s not acceptable to say, "he acted a certain way because he misunderstood what you told him?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to be honest, Chris, it's not that difficult to understand--I "comprehend" what people are saying. I meant the word "understand" in the sense that is closer to "empathize and maybe agree in those circumstances."

Here's why I do not think it's acceptable to make excuses for bad behavior--because the excuses are justifications and place blame at the victim's feet. What would be acceptable is placing the blame where the blame belongs--at the feet of the person (male or female) who behaved badly. Not to "excuse" it or "justify" it or explain it away, but to say "Acting in that manner JUST IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!" Period!!

If he had raped me in my own home, I realize that some people indeed would say, "Well if you hadn't worn that lowcut dress..." and "You shouldn't have gotten drunk..." or "You invited him into your home for a nightcap!!!" I do realize that SOME people really do think like that!! But that is directly incongruent to the way that I think. It may be a lapse in judgement to wear a dress cut down to there, but it in NO WAY excuses or justifies a rape--PERIOD. It is definately a lapse in judgement to drink so much that you are numb and not completely in control of yourself, but it in NO WAY excuses or justifies the rapist--PERIOD. It is an enormous lapse in judgement to invite the guy up to the house for a nightcap when you're in a lowcut dress and drunk--BUT IT STILL DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE RAPIST'S BAD BEHAVIOR!!

Apparently if the guy had raped me, it would be his bad--but since I invited him to my home and continued after I said "no", I'm supposed to be understanding that "maybe he didn't understand." I'm sorry--I just disagree strongly! I do not have to be understanding that a man continued to make sexual advances toward me after I said "no".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>No one here said what he did was in any way okay.
Just that he may possibly may have misunderstood your intentions (whether it's because your message was not clear or he did not understand or he did not care to understand or he's a perv or...) and that is possibly why he acted as he did.
You can&#8217;t understand that? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can understand that due to his own issues or interpretations, he may have a belief system that allows him to keep insisting on sexual contact after someone says "no". I understand that there are people in the dating scene that do not come right out and say what they want or speak their mind. I understand that he may be socially inept and probably immature in his sexual concepts.

What I choose NOT to be understanding about (I comprehend, do not empathize) is that it's acceptable to act as he did merely because he "misunderstood". Why would I be understanding about that?

(insert sarcasm here) Ohhhhh...so that's why he kept insisting that I perform sexual acts! Because he misunderstood that being invited to a woman's house means SEX!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LoL


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> ...as I read, I realize that if I ever get back into the dating scene I have a LOT to learn and the hope of my finding a single Christian man who is willing to wait on sex until marriage seems to be virtually nil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez, lordslady, at this point I suggest we skip the men and date each other! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I would be willing to bet that if I invited you to my home for soda and the Olympics, you wouldn't think I meant SEX!!!

WAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

If I had known that I wouldn't be having sex anymore, I would have made the last time last longer and be better!!! OY


CJ

(tongue-in-cheek as always)

CJ
Another train of thought...you are a Christian, right? (I assume so, since you have the Bible verse in your profile.) Even as believers on this board, there are different lines of thinking as far as pre-marital sex. I cannot remember if I’ve read what yours are ( Lordslady and I are trusting God to not be in a spinster’s club <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but it’s obvious somehow you and this guy were on different wave-lengths as far as values. Being around him at school functions doesn’t give opportunity to show much of his character. What, if any, discussions have you had with him to see into that part of his life? Is it possible that area wasn’t covered as well as it could have been in your “get to know each other coffee chat”or subsequent phone conversation? I’m sure you had lots of other things to talk about, and maybe this didn’t come into the conversation at all... I'm not sure how moral-related issues (not just sex) would be brought up anyway, and fortunately I don't have to worry about it any time soon. Next time, do you think you'd somehow get things like that into the conversation?

Again, NOT pointing fingers, and CERTAINLY NOT excusing what he did, just trying to see it from another angle, and how it can avoid being repeated by ANYONE here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by avondale25:
<strong> Even as believers on this board, there are different lines of thinking as far as pre-marital sex. I cannot remember if I&#8217;ve read what yours are ( Lordslady and I are trusting God to not be in a spinster&#8217;s club <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but it&#8217;s obvious somehow you and this guy were on different wave-lengths as far as values. Being around him at school functions doesn&#8217;t give opportunity to show much of his character. What, if any, discussions have you had with him to see into that part of his life...Next time, do you think you'd somehow get things like that into the conversation?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, I think this is excellent. I agree, it seems obvious that my values regarding sex and his values regarding sex do not jive--and in real life he has every right to have his values and also live with the consequences/experiences. And avondale, you are so right that this topic had not yet even come up in our discussions, because...well, let's face it...it was still only our SECOND date! I knew of him from school, but you don't learn a ton about a person in PTA--just that they invest time in their children by being at PTA.

I think next time, rather than bring up my sexual expectations within the first two dates (COULD be a little intense--haha), what might be do is to bring up that I DO speak my mind--I will ASK FOR directly what I want--and that I'd like to be with a man who let's me take the lead sexually. What do you think of that option??


CJ

Hi CJ,

Guess you can put this down to the "learning about dating experience curve" on your journey to find what works for you. Therefore no matter how p*ssed off you are at the approach to sex by this particular date , you now know not to second guess your own intuition and communication regarding your needs. This has been a valuable time spent evaluating how to create the same situation, with a VERY different outcome (obviously with a different date) so that you CAN invite a date over to your home to watch the summer Olympics ...but you will have to wait 4 years to do this!

CJ, I applaud your post regarding NO JUSTIFICATION and NO EXUSES for any inappropriate behaviour, regardless of any perhaps perceived mixed message. Even though we can UNDERSTAND why someone made the choice to behave as they did, this in no way ever EXCUSES OR JUSTIFIES this problematic behaviour, regardless of the circumstances which preceeded it. This leads back to the "blame the victim" thinking and no one ever has to take responsibility for their own behaviour.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
[QB] Belonging to Nowhere, Avondale, LH, and TR:

All I can say is "I'm stunned." I am STUNNED and I am just not going to take this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you don't, you don't take - reality...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am still somewhat in shock that some folks here on this board seem to think it is acceptable to say, "Well, he misunderstood your invitation so it's understandable why he had the expectation of sex and treated you disrespectfully. If he UNDERSTOOD he would have treated you respectfully." No it's not!! I sincerely can not fathom that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It looks you read them (us) as your second date listened to you (your NOs). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AFS:
<strong> [QUOTE]...Many people do NOT want what they say they want. Many people are used to dealing with people that do not always say what they mean, and rely on mind reading technique <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Probably most of the people you meet will not be at your level of understanding yourself and what you want in your life. If you expect them to be, I think you are going to be disappointed often. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, this may be true, but...

I believe in at least acting as if people will live up to my "high" expectations. It's really the Golden Rule in operation: treat them with the honesty and openness that I want from them. Sometimes this teaches them a new and better way of interacting, and they rise to the challenge. Other times...I am disappointed. That's OK. I will continue to hope, continue to protect myself as necessary, and (no doubt) continue to be disappointed.

I believe I am a pretty realistic idealist, but...I am an idealist nonetheless.

You know, at first I was once again re-upset by Belonging to Nowhere's reply, but then I thought, "You know what, CJ? You decide how you feel and how you react. You can choose something else if you'd like to."

I am just going to say this. You are entitled to your opinion, Belonging, but mine differs GREATLY!!!!!!

Otherwise, I'm taking this way (WAY, WAY) too seriously, so I'm going to choose to learn what I can from this and laugh. I'm going to choose to listen to my wise council because I know and trust them, and I'm going to let other people learn their lessons in their own time.

It has been an interesting way to learn!


CJ

OK, I haven't read all 54 pages of this thread, mostly just the first page or so. Man, these folks on the D/D forum. Just think if it'd been "Sex on the First Date". It'd rival the "Kingdom of Caerlon" thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well you know, CJ, what I think since I quoted Dr. Harley on x number of dates a while back. Easy for a married guy to say. Wish I could get that many dates w/the wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . Anyway I just looked again and it's dating at least 30 people not just 30 dates. Last time I brought this up it seems like the discussion centered on how long it takes to find the right person or figure out what kind of person is right for us.

Maybe it just takes that long for us to learn to not bend our standards in order to convince ourselves that someone is Mr./Ms. right because we're impatient, lack confidence, etc. I posted on a different thread that POJA, which seems to require that both partners can negotiate from a position of strength, seems to me the acid test of whether a relationship can really be good.

Well you've passed this test. You're learning the difference between compromising on legitimate needs of another person and compromising in a bad way. All us guys think about sex dang near all the time, but this guy is a jerk and an idiot. You're not letting your understandable desire to find that right one cause you to lie to yourself and pretend otherwise.

My 17-1/2 cents worth. No charge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Steve

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
<strong> If he had raped me in my own home, I realize that some people indeed would say, "Well if you hadn't worn that lowcut dress..." and "You shouldn't have gotten drunk..." or "You invited him into your home for a nightcap!!!" I do realize that SOME people really do think like that!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK CJ, you know where I stand on the issue with your date. Now I'm fixing to get flamed......

In the above scenario there would be no justification for the raper's actions. He was wrong and should be hung by his balls from the tallest flagpole. HOWEVER, if someone takes person responsibility for their actions then many times they are not put into a position of compromise and therefore they wouldn't of been dressed so scantly, drunk, and inviting a crazy freaking stranger to their house....

In closing, sweety, I believe you a bit on the naive side on this thread. Bottom line is you have to look at things through reality and not as if everyone has the same morals as you.

And finally, you've spent a great deal of time defending on this thread and then moved to laughing, I suspect as a defense mech... If one person tells you that you have a tail it's usually you can laugh it off but if ten people tell you that you have a tail you may want to look in the mirror.......

Please note that my comments are made with care and concern for you with the hopes that they will spur growth........

CJ,

I think it's odd that your having such a hard time accepting that some people ARE like this--

I mean--we are ALL Sinners--and we all have our own weaknesses and strengths--and you would prefer to date a man who has self-control, and who respects your boundaries and there is nothing wrong with that--and look at your ex--wasn't he much the same way?? Didn't he run over your boundaries and disrespect you?? had no self-control--so why do you think others wouldn't be like this??? It doesn't mean it is right--but they are out there--

but let's look some important fact's here--

1. This man has some self-control as he didn't rape you--but apparently doesn't like that other's have self-control--per his reaction to your requirements for dating you--

2. He's a boundary breaker--as he continued to persist and push your boundaries--(you have grown just think back some years--had a man pushed like this before how would you have responded??) most likely as I have in the past--and that was just to give in--to get the man to shut up--and then I would carry the guilt and shame of giving in when it's not what I wanted--

Which really boils down to his lack of respect for you--

Now, here is where this is helpful--as I have suggested to you before--make a list of things you want and don't want in a relationship--this can top the list as lack of respect--and gives two ways to identify disrespectful behavior--as red flags to look for from future dates--

Now, I don't know how many guy's you dated before you married--years ago--so if it was only a few--
look back to those relationships as well and see what it was you 'liked' about them--and things you didn't like about them--and you can use those lessons learned towards the suggested 30 people--you date before you marry--

I know there was at least one man who treated you w/ respect--and had qualities you liked--but for whatever reasons the relationship ended--so look back to that relationship as well--and see what happened that caused it to end--what traits did he have that you liked and didn't like--and include those in your list--

Going through my divorce and even after, I took the time to really look back at ALL of my past relationships--the one's I thought were good--and the one's I didn't think were as good--both short term and long term relationships the really sad thing I found--is that *I* was one really emotionally screwed up child--

I found the relationships I thought were good--had a lot of abuses in them--the one's I didn't think were good actually had more respect going for them than anything--so I had to look within myself and find out why I thought abuse was normal in a relationship--and only then could I make a list of things I wanted and didn't want--
to get the marriage I have now--

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Alright, this will be my final post on this thread no matter what anyone writes. This is getting ridiculous!

I am not saying that there are not people out there in the world who are date-rapists...or that I can't understand that this particular fella did not have the moral fortitude to stop at my boundary...or that everyone in the world has my dating standards...or that I should be allowed to were a slinky dress, get drunk, and invite strangers into my home. That really would be denying reality!

As I see it, there are PLENTY of shallow, immature men out there trying to date--probably or possibly because they are shallow and immature! There are PLENTY of 40-50yo "men" out there with the emotional IQ of children who expect someone to "put out" if they take a female to dinner. That is reality.

When I started this thread, I was basically asking, "Whoa! I thought dating an older man who was a parent would be different than dating when I was in my 20's!" If the real live dating standard in the U.S. at this time is the expectation of sex on the second date, then I am WAY out of step and would like to be aware of that. I thought I might get replies that said "Yep, that's the current expectation" or "No, you just happened to run across an immature one."

What I did NOT expect is to be blamed for the choices my date made to continue to pressure me for sex even after I said no. What I did NOT expect was to have the finger pointed at me for being brazen enough to ask someone to my home. Guess what?? I highly doubt I will EVER ask any of you into my home because asking someone to my home apparently means they have the right to sex!! What I did NOT expect was for people to tell me, "Well get with the times, lady. This is the way men are and we can't possibly expect them to control themselves or act like a gentleman or treat you respectfully."

THAT it what I can not be understanding about. I mean this sincerely--if that is the way that I need to expect men to treat me, I am turning gay. I don't care if it is not "reality" I will not accept blame for inviting someone to my home. I won't. He had NO RIGHT to sexually assault me just because I asked him to watch TV with me, and if you think he did, then I do not want to associate with you. I also don't care if it is not "reality" but when someone chooses to make a criminal choice against me, I WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Period. I am not responsible for him choosing to force my hand into his crotch, and if you think I am, then YOU are not in reality. Finally, I also will not just allow men to treat me like a sexual piece of meat "because that's how they are." Sorry--that does not fly with me!!!!!! If a man wants to be in my life, he needs to grow some balls, grow some self-respect and self-control, treat me like a lady, and respect me. I'm more than willing to be completely alone forever, because I'm taking THAT kind of treatment or nothing.

Now...I will be reporting this thread to the moderators, asking that they lock it, and asking that they show SERIOUS concern for people who keep advocating that I should "accept" that a sexual assault was MY PROBLEM because I won't take personal responsibility.

Here's my personal responsibility: it was a lapse of judgment to ask him over to my home on the second date.

As I review in my head, here's what I DID to take responsibility: I spoke what I wanted and expected OUT LOUD. I spoke with my kids about it first to be sure they were okay with it. I spoke my intentions OUT LOUD. Each time he persisted, I said "NO" or said "no" AND pulled back. I reached out to friends when I thought I might need some assistance in making my own thoughts clearer. I spoke up for myself and used the W-T-F-S format. I reached my own conclusion that being with a person like that did NOT work for me. I spoke up for THAT and did so in a respectful but firm W-T-F-S way.

What the hell else do you want from me!!!???


CJ

Oh, BTW, I wasn't really, literally laughing. I was just saying, that life is too short to get my undies in a bundle over this, and there's too much stuff in my life that is GOOD to let a thread get to me like that. I could choose to enjoy the good things rather than letting a stupid thread bother me. Guess what?? I don't think that anymore.

And if another sexual assault victim EVER comes on MB, do not EVER blame her again!!!

Goodbye and good riddance. I seriously can not believe that not ONE person said, "Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright. Yes, there are some men out there that may act like that, but you sure didn't ask to be assaulted." NO--God forbid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Let's play the semantics game a moment.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
You are getting the words, "understanding" and "acceptable (meaning okay)" interchanged.

I can possibly "understand" possibly why he did what he did but it is still not "acceptable".

"Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright!"

CJ,

I didn't say that specifically in my posts, but it certainly is my thought. I've read this thread with much interest, but an equal amount of sorrow at what it seems the world has become.

I do think, from what I see on here, and from what I hear from my friends, some of whom are already suggesting that I date, the morals of the world have gone seriously downhill, even for people our age. (And my 2 cents to the "dating" thread--I am MARRIED, thus it would be a SIN to date! Even if I am separated and in the process of D!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

It saddens me. I am okay being single for a while, but I don't really relish the thought of being single for the rest of my life. I'm not 40 yet! But I also will not compromise my beliefs just because it's "okay" nowadays to have sex a few dates after you meet someone. It's NOT! It only leads to heartache.

And just because men think of sex more often than women might is NOT justification for them not to be able to control themselves. Sorry, that's weak...

So CJ, I don't think you are in the wrong. I think you have the right outlook on what life should be in God's eyes. I think, unfortuntely, that the answer to the question you were asking may in fact be "yes, many men do expect sex on the second (or shortly therafter) date." Apparently they don't share God's outlook.

LL

I highly doubt I will EVER ask any of you into my home because asking someone to my home apparently means they have the right to sex!!
Where did you ever read that in this thread?
You seem to be trying to interpret what everyone wrote rather than reading it as posted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
<strong>I seriously can not believe that not ONE person said, "Holy Smoke, CJ what happened to you was seriously not alright. Yes, there are some men out there that may act like that, but you sure didn't ask to be assaulted."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I may not have actually said that, but I certainly thought something equivalent. It was certainly not all right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Here's my personal responsibility: it was a lapse of judgment to ask him over to my home on the second date.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. But at the same time, there's a part of me that thinks "Wow. After all you've been through, CJ, instead of being jaded and paranoid, you are still trusting enough to make that lapse of judgment possible. That's beautiful."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong> CJ, instead of being jaded and paranoid, you are still trusting enough to make that lapse of judgment possible. That's beautiful." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And scary....