N,

I'm glad you came back to post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I do agree with most of the stuff you've written but please don't get the mistaken impression that the folks here just want you to wallow in shame...ugh. It might be tough love...but it's not mean sprited. What they want...is for you to honestly look at this mess and take some ownership about how you got here. Shame is in fact a very destructive force...far different from regret. Regret is our concious way of learning what works and what doesn't. It helps us plan our future (gee that had good results...that didn't), make good choices, choose new directions. Shame only hurts our self image and self esteem.

I agree you need credibility...so why not start here. I think seeing a counselor is a fantastic idea, but practicing honesty and accountability is a daily thing...and in that regard...this board can be very helpful to you. You do need support. But you need support for the right things. Support of self pity...won't happen here, but you can get a HUGE amount of support for self building even if you can't concentrate on marriage building right now. As you say....the benefits of that will help you be a better father and a better man so you cannot lose.

No one thinks you're stupid, in fact, this would be easier if we did because it would be more explainable. Everyone I've every spoken to about you talks about what a great guy, great father etc....and what a great loss! So recapturing that self image will require using your intelligence to realistically look at the this situation and make the tough choices it will take to get your life back.

Nobody on this board truly has the opportunity to judge you in real life...and there is an advantage to that. You can practice and bounce ideas with some anonymity and you'll be surprised just how much "support" is available here if you are honest with yourself. There are some pretty amazing people here who are ready to help you...but they will not enable you to give up on yourself or to harm others.

So....I'll ask again. What kind of support are you looking for? How can we help? Don't run away....don't do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

N,
I wish I had more time to respond but unfortunately today I am actually having to earn my living. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What I would like to say is this.

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

I don't mean that disrepectfully but the only way for you to grow here is to adress some of the soul searching questions that have been presented to you. Not just with a yes I am sorry or I am at fault but with a real thought and a plan.

N, I do not judge you believe me I have done more to screw up my marriage than you can imagine. I have had an EA, I decieved him on so many other levels, my H had a A etc. There is no holier than though in me. What I do posses is a real short fuse when it comes to people talking about changing instead of DOING it.

Le

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Le ]</small>

Takola and Startfish,

Thanks for the feed back and information, I will take the time to read this over the next day or two and then respond honestly in my next post. I am very busy today with work; I just didn’t want you to think that I am not going to post. I think the problem in the past is I have just felt as though I am running out of time so I just react to the present situation. This time I want to get a plan of action together, a list of important items that will guide me to where I need to go with the end point being exactly what I want for myself and my family. Or at least me and my children……. With the understanding of how I can make things better for them.

N.
Hope I didn't offend you. Believe me it was not my intention.

I am glad you are taking the time to come up with some honest answers not just empty words. We have all asked you some pretty tough question and I know the answers and the process will be painful, for that I am sorry. This will take time and patience on your part, change doesn't come quickly or easily.

If the only outcome of this is that you are a better man than you are today and a better father then I think you will have accomplished alot.

Le

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Le ]</small>

I am interested in writing myself a item list, a list of things to do in order to get myself together. I have a list that I have been working on, it involves saving money, fixing my credit which after 13 years of mismanagement needs some work. Becoming a better farther and so on, the first problem with the list is that it’s about me for the most part, is that good or bad? My W had told some time ago, after I had told her I just wanted to go home that she didn’t want me to, she said I needed to work on myself. That’s what I am trying to do however, it’s sometimes difficult. I do have the information on critical thinking and it’s great however, are there any books or step by step guides. My W got a lot more out of this because she took a lot more serious than I did, and she treated it as a program that could help her. I want to get this plan together and then post it so I can get some feed back, it’s going to be a time line since that’s what I use at work.

I think a list is a good start. However, I without a doubt, the first item on this list should be finding a separate place to live and moving out of the OWs house and going back to NC. That way, you can get started on reconnecting with your children because until that happens your daughter isn't going to give you the time of day....and you know I'm speaking the truth about that. She's old enough to understand and she isn't likely to warm up to you again until the OW is out of your life....she's a pistol...and while she's certainly been influenced...she has got a mind of her own.

As impossible as that sounds in the financial situation you're in....you need to think outside of the box...be willing to sacrifice a comfortable life for a while...suck it up and make it work. What happened to your friend who was going to rent you a room? Look for other roomates in the classifieds. Ask people who are friends of the marriage to help and put you up for a month until you have the money for rent. But that is the first item....anything else....isn't really going to raise your credibility much....you know what I mean? I'm trying to be realistic and honest. The A must end first....there's no other way to begin living ethically and honestly.

Good Luck....you're still in my prayers.

<small>[ March 05, 2005, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

"I need to find myself" = "I'm not done acting selfishly"

I have read about this off and on for a while btw..

Just would like to add that I am a BS who endured almost similar time frame as your W.

You go on and on about making lists, what you did wrong...common word in your repliesis "I". Not about her....not about owning anything really. You acknowledge somewhat you did wrong...

But you don't really ever come out and say "hey world...I am living with a toxic woman who has places almost as much mental stress and pain on my W as I have done! My kids see thru me! I've been more of a dad to my OW's kids than to my own! I want to come home to my W because I can't have her now and eat more cake! She wants a life and I don't want her to. I love cake!"

Let me tell you where you're going. You're gonna end up from the frying pan right into the fire. You think OW is the answer. You think shacking up with her and "building" some sort of life with her is ok. She's passively hurt your W and sometimes done that anything but passively. And like selfish ws, you are angry at your Wife b/c she's the one who didn't want you to carry on with both of them. She forced you to choose. And she has been hurt.

I can't tell you how deeply my xh's affairs hurt me. He couldn't be alone. It was and is still all about him. I will never trust him again. I see the man and see a big "could have been". There will be decorum when in contact with him like today, with my son's soccer game. I will be "good for the sake of my child" when around him. But there will be no friendship again. No trust. Nothing. You cannot imagine how it feels going home after a long day of work and getting your child for a few fleeting hours...then knowing your child will in a few days go off to be with your xh, your once protector, your once life partner, and your son will have to deal with having an instant half sister and a step brother and a life that is foreign to him. It's all wrong! My heart rips every time I drop him off for school on the day visitation is to change. Now a few years has passed on that part. It doesn't change. It does NOT get better ok?

Your wife Kim deserves prayers and patience. Right now you're talking a good talk...but you fail to deliver walking the good walk. Just like my xh did.

I remember when the last time was we were alone together. We went to dinner and I went over to his house (aka my old home). We were already filed for divorce and we had a nice evening. I stayed over...the next day before I was to go to work, I asked him what he was willing to do. He obviously was still wanting something, but that I was going to require, and our family was to require NC and an honest effort for a long term recovery. His response.."this is the best I can do now. I am trying, but it's the best i can do today."

He's spiraled downward the last 3 years since that day in january. He made more feeble attempts that year, and until he moved in with ow2, there could have been some progress made. My heart turned cold after he moved in w/ow2...If you can imagine this, he calls me after ow1 dumps him...I'd been on rollercoaster rides like you couldn't imagine...up and down, empty promises, me avoiding lb's and so on. Calls and BLAMES me for he and ow breaking up...UH CAN WE SAY COMPLETE EXPOSURE BROKE THEM UP? My divorce documents did exposure nicely btw. Added in a few paragraphs I can say that bring ow2 into the divorce picture as well. He feebly asked me to see if we would work on things and less than 2 weeks later, an unknown additional affair partner who's been around for the whole time, ow2, moves in with him. She got deliberately pregnant as she thought he was taking too long to get the divorce and was nervous and immature...had done this kind of blackmail and has another child out of wedlock...a four year old son. Sad.

There comes to a point where you either put up completely or shut up. I know where your wife is now emotionally. I know that she is on that proverbial edge ready to jump off because she wants relief from this pain...she wants to give in and divorce b/c she can't take it anymore. And you're still wallowing in your self pity.

Do you want the reality I am living now? The reality my precious little boy is living now? Do you want to see how it's gonna be? Let me be the "christmas story" ghost and ask you do you want your future to be this way? Do you have ONE LAST CHANCE

oops..hit return and fell of da soap box.

Do you want ONE LAST CHANCE TO SAVE YOUR FAMILY? If so, you have to do some serious work.

You gotta leave OW. She's toxic. You're addicted to the toxicity.

You've gotta show respect to your W. She's broken, she's hurt. She has done things like I did...some great, some noble, some stupid, some out of anger, etc. But they were all in RESPONSE TO YOUR HARMFUL AND CRUEL TREATMENT AND AFFAIR...ALSO IN RESPONSE TO OW'S ACTIONS.

Your OW does not deserve loyalty. Your W does. She stuck in there and tried like hell. You waffled more than IHOP...

You move out. COMPLETE NC. You reconnect with your kids. Lemme tell you. your kids feel like crap. My son feels like crap when he's forced to be around ow's son and the confusion surrounding the new baby. He feels like it's not his family. Like he's a stranger in a strange land. He wants to be with me all the time b/c he's secure and knows he stands when he is with me. Your kids know your OW's kids have been placed above them. They get it and are damn mad at you. Do not blame your W. Blame yourself for NOT being there for the kids.

Pay your W on time. I took my xh to court 4 times. He refused to pay CS and SS for almost 5 mos. I remember burying my head in my hands, my face covered in tears as my attorneys revealed to courts (and didn't tell me prior b/c it was too painful) that my xh had squandered about 30-40k in 3 days in las vegas...Had spent thousands on furniture for his shack house with ow, had bought designer clothes, and flowers and stuff from victoria's secret. Meanwhile, i had been working for only one year, left with tons of debt including his debt, and was served with an eviction notice. Can we say betrayal at its most pure? You can at least own your responsibilities.

Now I can't speak for your W. I don't personally know either of you two. But I can say from my end, I know where she may be emotionally.

You maybe have one last chance. This one may be it.

You can have the future ahead I described to you. Oh, and in the end, I had to hire 2 lawyers b/c my xh could NOT be trusted to do anything truthfully or honestly. And he was still dishonest in everything legal like he was in the end of our marriage. So don't say you're shocked your W has hired lawyers to do the work for her. She doesn't believe you right now.

If you're to get that precious, blessing of a last chance, it is gonna require you working your tail off and doing things you have never done before.

You gotta take time to get to know your kids again. You gotta really do NC and do MB and get out of OW's life. She's part of this whole problem. She doesn't deserve respect but you should break it off cleanly and decently. Your W does deserve respect and you should thank God she can even still speak to you. I can barely speak now to my xh. I dread it. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me now...and sadly, it will never change.

Do you want your family to become a statistic? Do you want to go to your grave one day knowing you DID NOT TRY TO SAVE YOUR FAMILY? What will you do if you one day meet your creator at the end of your life? What will HE say? (or she for that matter)...If you're prepared to be able to live with that regret..the same regret and pain I see now in the eyes of my xh..then I say to carry on my wayward son...but there will be NO peace when you are done.

Today at my son's soccer practice, my xh said "I love you guys". He has not uttered those words to me in 3 years. And all inside has been broken, twisted, and is dead. My marriage is dead and will remain that way. I remember putting on my sunglasses so my son couldn't see the tears in my eyes today. Three years post divorce filing. Post separation. And it still hurts sometimes. Grief will do that to you even when you're healing nicely.

Please do not go down this path. Please try. Please know that if you do not act, your future will play out somewhat like mine did. And yes, your W will go on. She will learn to make it. She will hurt. But in private. She's gonna learn to be strong. But she will wish you could have been stronger than your primal urges. And you both would wonder why didn't we do something at least for our kids sake?

Please do not let your family down this last time. Please try. I say this to you and tell you I will pray and send good karma out to you and your family.

Her announcement of her wishes to file may be the wake up call you need.

Take this as a blessing. an opportunity. A hope. But it cannot fall on deaf ears or legs unwilling to walk or hands unwilling to do the work.

If you chose not to do a single thing..then carry on my wayward son.

I've read all the posts, he says, she says, but what disturbed me the most is what Takola wrote about your daughter.
This seperation did rock the foundation of your daughters life and it did take away her security. I don't know how old your child is, but no matter, she is still your child. How do you feel about your family treating her this way? Are you angry with them ? Do they talk to OW? Don't they realize you and OW together have rocked this child's world. It seems to me they are directing their anger at the wrong person. This is a normal reaction from a child who thought you were her everything and she was yours. To me it seems as long as their (your family) family member is happy that's all that matters. Man, I am sorry to have to say this because I am not here to bash you but I can see where you learned to be selfish. Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them. (James Baldwin) The most important thing a father can do for his chilren is to love their mother. As for the other posts that have been going back and forth. This one last quote is for you. Sometime we stare so long at the door that is closing that we see to late that one is open. Alexander Graham Bell

Hey there, I hope you didn't take my post as bashing, I didn't mean to be, I just am a big softee when it come to kids.

Hi Everyone, I'm Kim, who incidentally is the BS to NHMUA. Wow, what a post? I'm quite impressed at how you completely managed to absolve yourself from any part in a) the breakdown of the marriage and b) the affair. Bless your heart you are just one perfect individual. How could such a perfect person withstand such horrors in a marriage? I'm just so impressed that you managed to escape with the OW before you were totally destroyed by my hand. However, I thought that I should at least give these lovely folks at MB my side, so that they can provide you with the best advice. So, I'm just going to give some bulleted items that you neglected to mention in your posts, if that is okay?

1. NH living w/OW 2.5 yrs. How could I leave, she's been part of my life for 2.5 yrs. As opposed to our 15 and 2 children, yes, I can see your dilemna.

2. No child support for first 7mos. of separation. No $$$ for xmas presents for kids, yet OW gets new furniture, new hardwood floors, Helzberg Diamonds, ski trips w/her kids, fine dining, clothing, weekend bed & breakfasts, our family pc, our kids videogames, etc. Yes, I can see how funds are short NH.

3. Promises Promises...how many times did you promise to set things right. Statements to our children like, I'll be home after my next business trip, sending cards promising to make things right, etc., etc. How many NC letters? How many times did you use others to get your messages across only to not follow through? I guess we all make promises we cannot keep, huh?

4. I guess my forgiving your repeated verbal abuse meant that I didn't care for you; it seems that you are under that misconception that I never cared....hmmm, wonder who told you that.

5. Oh and I was never a partner. Funny enough, who helped put you through school financially, emotionally, and intellectually? I guess that was someone else...because it couldn't have been me, right?

6. A terrible temper...ah yes, that's right. I just love to go to dinner to talk about books while my husband is sleeping with another woman and sharing the day to day activities that should be done with me and our children. I guess I should be more understanding, shouldn't I? I should just accept a dinner here and there when you two argue, so that you are stimulated in other ways, huh?

7. Our Families....I'm going to be adult enough not to bring innocent people into this debacle.

8. Turning the Tables....which you did so effectively in the early days of your affair, no longer works with me NH. I'm mature enough to take responsibility for my part in the breakdown of the marriage, but I refuse to take any responsibility in your cheating on me, thus, cheating your family.

9. You tell me just recently that you have a five year plan, how you want to buy your first house by the year's end, and subsequent houses thereafter. You speak about everything that you want, you need, you, you, you. Yet, you never once mentioned the children or myself. When I questioned this, your response was, "I would like to see the children more, but with my traveling. etc., etc" and Kim, with you, I have no idea. Five years, huh?

10. How you repeatedly appear on this board while still in contact with the OW. Let's see, "I'm not going to lie, I do see her and speak with her, but it has cooled." Ha ha ha, and the bolts in my neck need to be re-oiled dear NH because if you think that I was believe this you must think me truly insane.

NH, you have done everything that a WS could do to their BS. I listened and I forgave. I did this numerous times, until the pain exceeded the hope. I listened and I forgave some more, so many times that I lost the concept of self-esteem, self-importance, and inner strength. I learned that to love another does not mean self-sacrificing your own worth. I was there for you waiting with the door wide open. I planned, made overtures, and gave my everything to put this back together. You repeatedly took it upon yourself to throw it back in my face and lay blame upon me for everything.

Now you write on this board about my desire for divorce and woe is NHMUA. I wish you and OW all the happiness that can emerge from a relationship born and nurtured from deceit; you two honestly deserve each other. As for my relationships, they are pure, chaste, and taken one step at a time; for the recovery of a broken soul is slow. Yet, knowing that I'm out there and living again is enough drive to close this door and open another.

Good Luck NHMUA, for your future is certainly UNCERTAIN.

Respectfully,

Kim

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: karena ]</small>

Jayce-

Do you really think karena is part of the reason for NHMUA's affair? I saw that and it jumped out at me. Maybe you explained in a later post?

Too

Jayce-

Do you really think karena is part of the reason for NHMUA's affair? I saw that and it jumped out at me. Maybe you explained in a later post?

Too

Oh, I apologize that in my tirade I neglected to mention the OW who has received so much loving attention and respect from my WS. Let's see, I want to keep this brief....

1. She's a Roman Catholic who had the unmitigated gall to drag my WS to mass on Sunday, give him holy medals, preach to him about Christianity, etc., etc.

2. This very same devout Catholic was the person who was giving me all the advice when my WS and I first separated. I confided in her the anguish that my children and I were experiencing. Yes, she told me to divorce him, take him to court and the cleaners and get everything I can from him because they are all the same...she knows from experience...her very own divorce.

3. She told me repeatedly that I was a good person and so was WS, but that we did not belong together. She also told me that I deserved someone who loved me, because my WS loved her and planned to make a life with her as an extended family.

Furthermore, my stepson calls her Cruella deVille, out of the mouths of babes...lol, well, an 18 year old babe that is..lol.

This is the very same person that my husband finds so attractive and so very upstanding, righteous and virteous. Okay, vent over.

Kimmie

TooInvolved

You asked if i thought Kim was a reason for his affair. There is no question, even from what Kim says that she was not perfect in her marriage. People are people and with any action there are means reasons. Was Kim part of the reason. Of course, but not a very big one. See, a wife may give a husband, or a husband may give a wife every reason to cheat but the real responsibility comes to the person who does it. Your confusing reasons with responsibility. We all give reasons to do things but once we do it, the responsibility is squarely on our shoulders for doing it. N did it for reasons that probably made sence to him at the time. I'm sure he regrets it now. You can tell from the tone of his letters. He knows he is a jerk but doesn't know and doesn't want to get better. Until he is reason to improve himself people should just avoid him. He is too toxic to be a part of anyones life. Let him fester. he will pop like a zit soon and when he does if the scars are not too bad, maybe he will be ready to come back into the real work and play like an adult. As Much as I'm against divorce, she needs to distance herself from him. Perhaps in a few years when he recovers she might consider more, but thats for another time and another life.

Hey N. Well I just read what your wife has written. I think she was kinder to you than you were to her. I can't imagin a woman waiting two and a half years for her husband to come to his senses. Maybe you don't really deserve a woman like her. I must say I have been a catholic for 47 years and I was surprised to know that they did away with the 7th commandment. This catholic person, does she know that every time she receives Christ with sin on her soul that this is what is called a sacrilege. Is she just plain stupid and don't know what the word adultry means. Sleeping with someone elses husband and this is no differece to you. Is this what you want to bring your children to and show them what kind of person daddy thinks is special. I couldn't imagin talking to someone every day knowing that I am lying to them. When Kim said that this union was born out of lies and deceipt she hit the nail on the head. To know that your living with a woman who could lie and manipulate another person like she has done would send up red flags all over the place. Your wife has every right to vent and if she was on this board the whole time then she has the patience of a saint. I don't know how she held her tongue so long. What do your friends think of her,the ow, we know what they think they just aren't saying anything. Are you proud of her? Howdo you introduce her? Do you put your head down in shame? How about her, does she hold her head up high, I bet she does because she is a woman of no morals or character. Do you think she is your best friend. Well listen up N. as soon as your wife lets go it's curtains for you. This woman was married before and divorced, did she not see all the devasation. Families torn apart. Children fending for theirselves, torn between parents. Like I said before , nothing would ever be before my children. No woman would ever cause me to hurt them in such a way that they will be devasated for life. I am sorry for being on a roll and I am not picking up for Kim, but man you don't know what you are loosing until it is completely gone.Right now you are teetering back and forth, there is none of that after divorce. There is nothing but you. She has the tongue of a serpent, does she slither across the floor. I feel sorry for you if your wife takes her advice and gets a good lawyer. Could you imagin your best friend telling your wife to take him for all he has. I am married, their really isn't any marriages made in heaven, only on earth so we do all make mistakes husbands and wives ., Your wife regarless of any of your mistakes could have left the marriage . I can't believe that she was willing to forgive you after all this time. There is no way that you could put this woman down, angry outbursts and all . Not only put down by you but also your whatever you can call her. All that Kim has worked for is gone and for that I am sorry. I will pray for her. For you just the material things are gone. I will pray for you also because when you see your children with another man giving him all the love and respect that should have been yours you will then know utter devastation. Having a child doesn't make you a father, raising a child does. Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey N. Well I just read what your wife has written. I think she was kinder to you than you were to her. I can't imagin a woman waiting two and a half years for her husband to come to his senses. Maybe you don't really deserve a woman like her. I must say I have been a catholic for 47 years and I was surprised to know that they did away with the 7th commandment. This catholic person, does she know that every time she receives Christ with sin on her soul that this is what is called a sacrilege. Is she just plain stupid and don't know what the word adultry means. Sleeping with someone elses husband and this is no differece to you. Is this what you want to bring your children to and show them what kind of person daddy thinks is special. I couldn't imagin talking to someone every day knowing that I am lying to them. When Kim said that this union was born out of lies and deceipt she hit the nail on the head. To know that your living with a woman who could lie and manipulate another person like she has done would send up red flags all over the place. Your wife has every right to vent and if she was on this board the whole time then she has the patience of a saint. I don't know how she held her tongue so long. What do your friends think of her,the ow, we know what they think they just aren't saying anything. Are you proud of her? Howdo you introduce her? Do you put your head down in shame? How about her, does she hold her head up high, I bet she does because she is a woman of no morals or character. Do you think she is your best friend. Well listen up N. as soon as your wife lets go it's curtains for you. This woman was married before and divorced, did she not see all the devasation. Families torn apart. Children fending for theirselves, torn between parents. Like I said before , nothing would ever be before my children. No woman would ever cause me to hurt them in such a way that they will be devasated for life. I am sorry for being on a roll and I am not picking up for Kim, but man you don't know what you are loosing until it is completely gone.Right now you are teetering back and forth, there is none of that after divorce. There is nothing but you. She has the tongue of a serpent, does she slither across the floor. I feel sorry for you if your wife takes her advice and gets a good lawyer. Could you imagin your best friend telling your wife to take him for all he has. I am married, their really isn't any marriages made in heaven, only on earth so we do all make mistakes husbands and wives ., Your wife regarless of any of your mistakes could have left the marriage . I can't believe that she was willing to forgive you after all this time. There is no way that you could put this woman down, angry outbursts and all . Not only put down by you but also your whatever you can call her. All that Kim has worked for is gone and for that I am sorry. I will pray for her. For you just the material things are gone. I will pray for you also because when you see your children with another man giving him all the love and respect that should have been yours you will then know utter devastation. Having a child doesn't make you a father, raising a child does. Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey N. Well I just read what your wife has written. I think she was kinder to you than you were to her. I can't imagin a woman waiting two and a half years for her husband to come to his senses. Maybe you don't really deserve a woman like her. I must say I have been a catholic for 47 years and I was surprised to know that they did away with the 7th commandment. This catholic person, does she know that every time she receives Christ with sin on her soul that this is what is called a sacrilege. Is she just plain stupid and don't know what the word adultry means. Sleeping with someone elses husband and this is no differece to you. Is this what you want to bring your children to and show them what kind of person daddy thinks is special. I couldn't imagin talking to someone every day knowing that I am lying to them. When Kim said that this union was born out of lies and deceipt she hit the nail on the head. To know that your living with a woman who could lie and manipulate another person like she has done would send up red flags all over the place. Your wife has every right to vent and if she was on this board the whole time then she has the patience of a saint. I don't know how she held her tongue so long. What do your friends think of her,the ow, we know what they think they just aren't saying anything. Are you proud of her? Howdo you introduce her? Do you put your head down in shame? How about her, does she hold her head up high, I bet she does because she is a woman of no morals or character. Do you think she is your best friend. Well listen up N. as soon as your wife lets go it's curtains for you. This woman was married before and divorced, did she not see all the devasation. Families torn apart. Children fending for theirselves, torn between parents. Like I said before , nothing would ever be before my children. No woman would ever cause me to hurt them in such a way that they will be devasated for life. I am sorry for being on a roll and I am not picking up for Kim, but man you don't know what you are loosing until it is completely gone.Right now you are teetering back and forth, there is none of that after divorce. There is nothing but you. She has the tongue of a serpent, does she slither across the floor. I feel sorry for you if your wife takes her advice and gets a good lawyer. Could you imagin your best friend telling your wife to take him for all he has. I am married, their really isn't any marriages made in heaven, only on earth so we do all make mistakes husbands and wives ., Your wife regarless of any of your mistakes could have left the marriage . I can't believe that she was willing to forgive you after all this time. There is no way that you could put this woman down, angry outbursts and all . Not only put down by you but also your whatever you can call her. All that Kim has worked for is gone and for that I am sorry. I will pray for her. For you just the material things are gone. I will pray for you also because when you see your children with another man giving him all the love and respect that should have been yours you will then know utter devastation. Having a child doesn't make you a father, raising a child does. Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey N. Well I just read what your wife has written. I think she was kinder to you than you were to her. I can't imagin a woman waiting two and a half years for her husband to come to his senses. Maybe you don't really deserve a woman like her. I must say I have been a catholic for 47 years and I was surprised to know that they did away with the 7th commandment. This catholic person, does she know that every time she receives Christ with sin on her soul that this is what is called a sacrilege. Is she just plain stupid and don't know what the word adultry means. Sleeping with someone elses husband and this is no differece to you. Is this what you want to bring your children to and show them what kind of person daddy thinks is special. I couldn't imagin talking to someone every day knowing that I am lying to them. When Kim said that this union was born out of lies and deceipt she hit the nail on the head. To know that your living with a woman who could lie and manipulate another person like she has done would send up red flags all over the place. Your wife has every right to vent and if she was on this board the whole time then she has the patience of a saint. I don't know how she held her tongue so long. What do your friends think of her,the ow, we know what they think they just aren't saying anything. Are you proud of her? Howdo you introduce her? Do you put your head down in shame? How about her, does she hold her head up high, I bet she does because she is a woman of no morals or character. Do you think she is your best friend. Well listen up N. as soon as your wife lets go it's curtains for you. This woman was married before and divorced, did she not see all the devasation. Families torn apart. Children fending for theirselves, torn between parents. Like I said before , nothing would ever be before my children. No woman would ever cause me to hurt them in such a way that they will be devasated for life. I am sorry for being on a roll and I am not picking up for Kim, but man you don't know what you are loosing until it is completely gone.Right now you are teetering back and forth, there is none of that after divorce. There is nothing but you. She has the tongue of a serpent, does she slither across the floor. I feel sorry for you if your wife takes her advice and gets a good lawyer. Could you imagin your best friend telling your wife to take him for all he has. I am married, their really isn't any marriages made in heaven, only on earth so we do all make mistakes husbands and wives ., Your wife regarless of any of your mistakes could have left the marriage . I can't believe that she was willing to forgive you after all this time. There is no way that you could put this woman down, angry outbursts and all . Not only put down by you but also your whatever you can call her. All that Kim has worked for is gone and for that I am sorry. I will pray for her. For you just the material things are gone. I will pray for you also because when you see your children with another man giving him all the love and respect that should have been yours you will then know utter devastation. Having a child doesn't make you a father, raising a child does. Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!! infopop