Ali88 - I can check to see if they have that picture in a watercolor print ( they may) It may even be on a T-shirt. Since every year the shirts are a little different.

I was bummed last year when I didnt' go..I didn't go because it was 3 weeks after D-Day. I choose to give up my once a year horse hiatus to show WH that our M was worth it...Funny, 2 weeks later he had no problem going on a golf trip...FUnny, 1 year later we are still at the same spot - No Recovery, No D, No nothing....I should have gone....

Oh try for used tack - www.bitsandbridles.com
also http://www.trumbullmtn.com/
www.ultimatedressage.com

I got my saddle from trumbull mountain and the ladies are great to work w/they have alot of used tack that they will send for you to try first.

As for Vegas I'd be afraid to contact my friend out there - I know what would happen - I've always found him attractive and I don't want to go there at this point. When our friendship stared we were both married and worked for the same company - we only saw each other a couple of times a year. Though, we spent alot of time on the phone - being friends. Since, I vowed never to step out of my M - I was always careful when we did see each other. I heard he is divorced now and I since I don't really have a M - I'd be setting my self up for a "fling" if I contacted him...It's a NO-NO....

I have a tendency to take the "safe route" when making male friends - even though many on here think I should NOT seek new male friends - I can handle it - again, I go the safe route - men that I'm not attracted to at all. That I like for their humor, business sense or just enjoy chit-chat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK I am going to be totally honest here. Oh my God, I am so afraid to post this but here it goes. But If found someone right now because I am where I am in my marriage which is a convenience, I would definitely go for it! Please go easy on me! Really. Not to do it to get back at my husband. No, if I were to play get backs it would have been done along time ago. I am not one to cheat or do things out of spite to get back. I am at a point where my love for my H. is not there. His A. was the icing on the cake and it took me so long to see it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not at your point yet..In fact, I'd be scared to death to even think about SF w/someone.

Is your H - still as WH???

JMO but I would say not to have any "outside male friends" right now. I made that mistake & it was not a good thing.

Take care of your M, whether it be D or working it out b4 u start something else - even an innocent friendship with a man has the potential to lead to something u didn't anticipate.

Again JMO.

Good idea! If you are attracted to him and he is divorced???!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I could only imagine what would happen. eekkk! Very smart of you. I would go with you to Vegas but my sons b-day is that week. Ahh, just move the party to Vegas! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for the sites. I will check'em out! I froze my toes off this morning. I was wearing my paddock boots and they're not warm. What a barn princess I am. I cannot wait until spring! I am going to start ground work on the trio. All mush! None of them have any muscle tone. One the horses is a standard breed. He is so funny. I got on him Sunday and was laughing because of the extra gate. Nice that my butt didn't move. I want to work on bending him. His neck is beautiful! No I am not going to make a hunter out of him but he extends wonderful. Not sure if he would do well in dressage. He is just a trail horse but me being a hunter jumper, I 've got to do ground work on him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I cannot see this horse jumping unless I work on him bringing down his neck. Tucking! Ahhhh, I am not so green after all! AHH the therapy!

No husband is not WS anymore. I think if given a chance, he would do it again because of where we are. At this point? I don't care. I know, sounds really bad. But it is true. But not sure if you know my story. check out H. post 26649.. He didn't move and never really did anything for our marriage. No responsibility and no sorry's, nothing. He just wanted to pretend that nothing happened. I mean he was still "in love" with this tramp while he wanted to move on. I give you a full update later. But if you do read H. post, He was the one who found this site to complain that he was the one that got cheated on because she was seeing another man while seeing him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> let me know what think. Our marriage is pretty much nonexistant.

OK need to shower, toes are warm enough to get in!

Ali~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ali88:
<strong>Why not? Call your friend! OK please no one rip me a new one here. We can have opposite sex friends. Just because our S. cheated doesn't mean we would stoop to that level right?

Ali~ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem is that most ws had the exact same thinking.
No thoughts at all of an affair, friends can be friends, etc.
But (especially) since a bs is in a pretty vulnerable state, it is probably easier for them to get in too deep without realizing it.

I guess it depends on the maturity level! I have male friends that I could have easily had an affair with while I was vulnerable and while H. was going through his crazys about OW. But that is not me. Now? Hummmm! Things are a lot different.
I think that It Hurts has a higher maturity level and know's right from wrong as she posted above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali~

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

“””I think that It Hurts has a higher maturity level and knows right from wrong as she posted above.”””

IMHO, maturity has little to do with it. Heck, knowing right from wrong has little to do with it.

We could do a little poll around here to see how many BS’s had “exit” affairs, though many wouldn’t respond, I’d predict the numbers to be pretty high. Then, see how many of them knew right from wrong. Then see how many of them viewed themselves as “mature”. But the more pertinent questions would be “Did you plan on it” which most of them didn’t, some I have knowledge of 1st date sex which is totally against their character and “Was it beneficial to your recovery?” which I think you’d get a pretty resounding HE!! NO… Sure, it provided “temporary” relief, just like alcohol, but didn’t change life’s problem and in many cases led to more emotional baggage caused by guilt and shame.

Again, these are just my observations based upon life experience and have many great friends here on MBrs. And yes, the ones that have called me at 2:00am, leaving someone’s hotel room, are still great friends who just made bad choices in their life recovery. I, myself, have been one to believe more in preventative maintenance while I recover, whether it be from my marriage/divorce or whatever. I don’t go to bars, WHY, because there is a chance I’ll drink. I don’t put myself in compromising positions with women, why, well 1st my now Fiancé would KILL me, but before we met, I didn’t do it because quite frankly I didn’t trust myself. So do I still get lonely, yes, but I do something better to get myself out of it that doesn’t put me in a vulnerable position. Whether it be going to church or out with a group for coffee…..

Well, that’s about my 2 cents worth…. Hope it’s well spent..

Then I guess the question is...Can men and women be friends? When Harry Met Sally?
I totally understand your point! I am sure many of the BS' here had RA. But with me? I was given the opportunity while the H was going through it and while he was in that "fog". When I was approached, I had a very handsome doctor ask me out because he had heard that the H. just went up and left me to take a job in Texas. So that was not the case entirely there.. as he heard it from a friend of a friend type of deal. But I was feeling very vulnerable and unworthy and needed to feel wanted again. Did I? Nope! Not my values.
So what do you think? I think that WS cannot be but BS? hummmmmm!

Ali~

I had a very handsome doctor ask me out
???
So you think most affairs begin simply by asking someone out/going out on a date?

Most affairs start long, long before dating or sex is even a passing thought by the married person.

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Dear Lost - I'll agree w/you and also disagree. I appreciate your 2 cents...

I have my life experiences -being a WS many years ago and now being the BS - I know the deep pain a WS causes everyone around them.

I have many long term MF (male friends) - my WH knows them, whenever, I get an email or a call I always tell him - there is nothing to hide becoz they are only friends. I want him to share in those friendships and keep him current on what they are doing.

My WH has many long term and new FF - that I know NOTHING about. THey are kept a secret-gez, wonder why??? When I did ? him - he flat out told me It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...I DON"T CHECK ON YOU DON'T CHECK ON ME..

WH did not set out to make "friends" he set out for SF - set out to make himself happy and who cares what damage he causes other familes. He has no shame in what he does. Since you've read some of my prior post you see that I may be dealing w/sa, an alchol problem or a man that just doesn't "feel".
I'm not dealing w/the standard wh/fog here. He sees Nothing wrong w/having SF/EA w/many MOW/OW at the same time...Something is Wrong with that logic....deeply wrong. It's like he doesn't know right from wrong..

I need to think/focus on me - I've given up trying to help him - he only hates me more when I try to help him.

I'm not justifying starting new friendshps per say, but, I am saying I can't live the way I have been, right now Plan B or D - it's an option. We have too many business issues facing us..I've made new ff along the way so I guess I didnt' see an issue w/new mf either. Would I tell my WH about them NO, but I don't tell him about my new ff anymore either. We rarely speak.

You have the right to say to me - Don't come crying to me or the BB when you find yourself in a full blown A...You'd be right..I truly believe in myself and my values/morals/standards I believe I know when I met someone that's high risk and someone that's not a threat to my standards,etc.
Yes, I know, A's aren't typically w/someone that your find attractive - it's the EN that they fullfill.
But again, my experiece dictates that I have mf that filled so many of my EN over the years - yet, I never allowed myself to lower my standards. When WH persued me - he didnt' push the let's be friends button - he was looking for a MW that he could control - I was younger, naive and not familiar w/such a character - I was lured by the best...of the best.

I have seen so much thru my WH A's that it's scary - these MOW/OW risked their M, children etc for man that was playing a game...It's sick..It would take so much to make me trust someone again w/my feelings/sexuality - I'm not sure that person even exists..
Even women - 2 of his tramps worked for us. one of them I was friendly with..she stabbed me in the back.. then she stabbed him - by announcing their A to other employees. The other one didn't keep their A very secret either..

With my job/home/horse/etc. I don't even have TIME for an A..nor the energy to live a life of lies and sneaking around.

Please try and have faith that I can separate the good from the bad.

I will say WH - heard that I had a bf which is not true (just love rumors) now he's done a bit of a turn around. Funny, he doesn't realize I am not the woman I was 6 months ago - I have boundaries now, and if he truly wants to recover our M (and this isn't just yet another game) he needs to TALK to me..We need help to recover - I can't just sweep this under the rug, he went too far..and pushed me too far away. You do read about that on this BB - sometimes it works and sometimes it's too late..

I haven't a clue what my future holds...but, if nothing else, I know who I am and what I expect of myself....

Chris, I understand what you are saying. I am just saying because the BS is a victim, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to have a revenge affair. The incident that happened with me and the Doctor... happened while I knew my H. was having an affair, I could have easily just said; "Screw it"! "If he is having and affair so why can't I"? Believe me, I found him to be very attractive. I can see if someone is vulnerable enough and there is a friendship, it might lead to more. But I believe the maturity level has a lot to do with it. It is making the right decision. A choice! Knowing when to back away!

Ali~

I believe you Hurt!

I think you have the right judgement!

Will post later!!

Ali~

Chris, I understand what you are saying. I am just saying because the BS is a victim, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to have a revenge affair.
A revenge affair is when you go out and intend to do it.
Most affairs don't begin with people setting out to have one.

I can see if someone is vulnerable enough and there is a friendship, it might lead to more.
Which is why one shouldn't get into a situation where it could even possibly lead to more.

But I believe the maturity level has a lot to do with it. It is making the right decision. A choice! Knowing when to back away!
So only immature people have affairs?
Only "bad" people have affairs? They don't know right from wrong?
Why wouldn't it be the right decision when your spouse has said he wants a divorce and is living with his girlfriend?
I can think of many reasons it's not right, but someone who has just experienced this is not gonna be thinking too clearly and just think the marriage is over, when it probably isn't even close to being over yet.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Well, is having an affair grown up thinking? If she is vulnerable then by all means she shouldn't be in that situation. But you bring up a good arguement. Why do we have legal age drinking? Because from all the studies done, it shows that people under 21 don't have the proper judgemnet. So are affairs proper judgement? They are manipulative and hurtful and extremely selfish. All immature actions and thinking. So maybe it is immature actions. ?? Affairs can happen for all types of reasons. But each person that has an affair I am sure knows right from wrong. That is what I mean by maturity. Like does my two year old know it is wrong to take a candy bar from the store? No, but I do. I am at a different level and know better. Just like affairs, you EXPECT your partner to know better!

There is a thread on here.. Better Man, Better off, he wanted to ask another women out. I suggested that he shouldn't because he just really found out that his wife was cheating on him. I felt bad for him because you can read the hurt in his post. He is definitely looking for some EN's there.

I know that most affairs aren't looked for. They happen. Like my husband's A. I don't think he went to Texas looking for one. But I think in Hurts case, she knows all the warning signs and from what I read, she has the maturity level to know when the warning signs arrive. But that is my opinion.

Help me out here. Do you think men and women can be friends?

Ali~

****OK I am going to leave the up above post there. Because I think I made some valid points about affairs and maturity. But I must be missing something here? I know your posts but I am confused. Hurt are you looking for friendship or a male companion??? *******

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Gotta chime in here...

Yes, I think men and women can be friends. But I think it's VERY unwise for them to become close friends or to meet away from group settings. I was friends with a couple guys from my office. We talked at work about more than just work. They both watched me go through my DV last year. But I would never have even considered meeting either of them alone, away from the office, for any reason at all. We all talked in a group at the office.

On the other hand, this is me talking as a long-ago WS. I was a young mother of a toddler and an infant back in 1990. Husband was drinking and out with his buddies every night. I was feeling mighty lonely. I took my marriage vows seriously--never would have EVER intended to cheat on him.

Met this guy at work. Fun guy--recently DV. He was very open and very chatty like me. We talked about our families, we talked about other things, we met for lunch a few times. He was a programmer so used to put these quirkly little messages on my computer in the morning for when I logged in. We went out for pizza one night. Innocent, right? We started talking about more things, but still, he's just a friend, so it's okay. I was being slowly sucked in, like a frog being slowly boiled but it doesn't know it because the heat has been turned up slowly. I thought I had everything under control when in fact I didn't realize the strong feelings I'd developed for him.

Then he lost his job. I panicked--thought I'd never see him again. He called me--was a wreck and feeling like a failure. I invited myself over to take him out for ice cream. We ended up in bed.

I thought I had everything under control. I thought I would NEVER do anything like that. Affairs didn't happen to me--I was too "above" that and too smart for that.

WRONG! Very WRONG!

If you want to be friends with a guy, meet in a group, where everyone can be held accountable. Do not meet privately--just the two of you--in a bar, in a restaurant, anywhere. It can only lead to no good.

LL

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Right! Just don't set yourself up for failure or put yourself in a compromising position! That is the difference I am talking about! But if the marriage is over and waiting for the divorce to happen and the two of them talked about outside options, then I don't see any harm. Well, unless it is your brother in law or something! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry! My humor can be sour!

Ali~

Ithurts,

I'm curious, why do you let him run you out of places?

If you went there before and were comfortable, don't let his rudeness run you off, let his rudeness show his own nature to those he is with. They will eventually see it for what it is.

I just read this entire post and would like to put my 2cents in and probably get blasted off but here goes...........

Ithurts,,,,,,,,,,Is your M over??
I think this is the first question we need answered.Is it truly over,is there NO hope that it can be restored?? Do you want to restore it??

If you answer these questions and feel in your heart it is over then why not start the paper work for the D.

I am in a situation where the paper work is filed,but my H will not sign,therefore it is only prolonging the inevitable,is this your case??
I personally do not think that just because you go out and have a drink w/this person that you are going to have an A.Everyone has the power to say NO!!!
If your M is over,its over.Bottom line,people will say "But you are still M on paper" sure you are so am I,but I have not lived in the same house as my H for 8months.I would be D if he would have signed the papers,but he did'nt.
I look at it like this.............my H is still controling my life to a point.....is that what yours is doing??

I guess what I am trying to say is,,,,,,,,,you know you,you know why you are going to meet this person,if you have been open and honest w/him and your H then I dont think it is cheating.He is your friend.You draw the boundries and stick to them,do not let him cross over them and make sure you dont either.
As for me,I know for a fact that I could go out to dinner w/someone and have NO physical contact w/them,no desire to and it is nothing more than meeting a friend,the same as if it were a GF.

I know I will get blasted now but thats ok.I guess I see life a whole lot different than I did 2yrs ago.

ThornedRose </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm curious, why do you let him run you out of places? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I will not get in a argument/cry w/him in public. If I walk out my "image" is still unscathed - I still retain my level of "class". Yes, he "feels" like he has the upperhand - he won - he still has control and he probably does. I just find it easier to leave - maybe he's viewed as the "loser" to those present - since I walked out - I don't know - what would you think? That I'm being a B**** or that I'm above dealing w/his crap?

Gingersnap: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ithurts,,,,,,,,,,Is your M over??
I think this is the first question we need answered.Is it truly over,is there NO hope that it can be restored?? Do you want to restore it?? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know where our M stands..I know that I will not tolerate his A's, his going out alone till 2-3 am, his lack of respect for me, etc. I have set boundaries and I know he can't/isn't ready to work within them.

I don't even know if he would want to restore it - we don't really talk much unless he has noone else around - then he'll talk to me but NEVER about our M. I think he still wants his cake and I refuse to give it to him.

He's been talkative for a week - acts like none of this happened - talks about buying this and that - I actually made dinner twice last week - then he goes out last nite till 2 am..AS I WRITE THIS - He walks in my office and asks what's for dinner? Is he NUTS - I look at him and say - I think I'm going out to dinner. He looks at me like "what the heck"...why wouldn't you cook??? We're talking, I'm being nice to you - you should do something for ME..Coz, it's all about ME...

Imho we are back at square 1 - it's like he's bipolar or something...Though again, he heard I had a BF - so that may have triggered his nice behaviour..maybe he thinks I should accept the crumbs he sprinkles my way..Like the H### I will..

Then he calls and says - I picked up meatballs - (which is totally out of character for him)are you going to eat later or are you going out? I say - I think I'm going out....This is INSANE..

I'm not even sure what I want anymore..This has turned into a marriage of financial convenience. I haven't filed so he hasn't had to write a fat check yet.. this benefits him..Since the only reason he hasn't filed is becoz he knows he's gonna HAVE TO write a big fat check..and he doesn't want to do that..He says he'll drag a D out for 5 years..and if I know him he'll try..becoz again I'ts all about HIM...

I haven't filed since there are things I want yet and I'm not ready to change my current $$ lifestyle..Though, I do plan on looking for a house come spring and he's gonna pay for it...I'm tired of the rollercoaster - though, I'll still work at our business at least I won't have to live w/this insanity at home..

Yes, I still have love left in my heart - but just becoz you still love someone doesn't mean that you can recover your M or that it should be recovered. Or that you should be a doormat or accept what crumbs they throw your way. W/all the MOW/OW he's been w/I do not feel M..When I see what some of these women look like - I don't want to be w/a man that isn't choosey about the women he's with..It says very little about the type of man he is - at least pick someone better than your current wife..go up a step..then maybe I'd respect him..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I look at it like this.............my H is still controling my life to a point.....is that what yours is doing?? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainly, mine is still trying to control my life - 6 months ago he could those days are over..That's why he's still trying to keep me on the rollercoaster..He doesn't see that I've bailed out - I'm not getting back on - the ride is scary. I'll only try to recover our M when he becomes a real husband..When he can give me emotional security, when he can be a MAN..Not some phoney game player. When he can be a husband I'll start to be a wife again..and not a minute sooner. I've told him this - he just doesn't hear me..
He uses money to try and buy me - it's my money too I can buy what I want when I want..I don't need his approval anymore..

It's so sad becoz this past week - when we were being civil - he seemed happy again, was walking around singing, etc. I felt a release of some of the tension. I almost saw the man I married -and what's he do - goes out till 2am and expects me to accept this behaviour. He's gotta be off his rocker...

By not going to Plan B sooner - I allowed this crap to continue and yes, that's wrong but I'm being selfish - I'll be the one that has to move, pack, have less of a home,etc. and I'm just dragging my feet since I don't want to deal w/all that and leaving a man that I still have love for..is going to be very, very hard..

As I replied to another poster - I will not begin a new friendship w/this man if he's M..even if I only see it as friends - I dont' want him to get the wrong idea, and he could especially if I tell him my current situtation..If I bump into him so be it - but, he better now call me or try to monopolize my time..He may play me and think I'm hard up and I'm an easy target for a MM to hit on. I won't fall into that trap..

If he is single I will set the boundaries because I CAN..There will be no playing me - I viewed this man as safe when I met him - hey, maybe after a few more conversations, I may find that I don't even want him for a friend..that we have nothing to talk about or share a drink over. I'm choosey and won't let that guard down I do have enough to keep me busy so I'm not so needy that I'll hook up for the sake of it..I only want friends not some messy affair..If I walk into a bar I want to see there are people there that I can coverse with..I'm trying to start over/move forward it's tough since I'm the only one changing anything..What the heck do the people at "our" bar think when he's there all the time w/o me...when he stays till 2 am..I'm starting to HATE this man..and that can be a good thing..He's destroyed everything and won't fix anything..

Now I gotta home from work and deal w/him again...YUCK...I dont' wish this on my worst enemy - well, maybe I do..

Man and women can be friends...I truly believe that since I've lived it. There are ways to keep it that way and alot of us know exactly how to do that..W/O comprising ourselves or our marriages..I've NEVER slept w/a friend...

Reading your words reminded me of my life.The reasons I stayed in a less than good M.Sure we had good times but the bad far out weighed the good.And then when we were getting to a time in our life when I thought things were changing and we were finally going to be able to live a little he goes and has an A.

His A was the straw that broke the camels back.I stayed for 18m post dday but with his lack of change and no desire to I could not take it anymore.You can only hear so much that "You need to leave" before you do.After I left I think my H was happy because he felt like he had his cake and could eat it to.He could be single live alone and then when he felt like he wanted a wife he could come and visit.

I still love him and dont know why.I think of all the pain and hurt he has caused me and wonder why do I even care,but now it is more protection of myself.Sure I worry about my finacial future but I think because I am not making that the reason I stay that God will honor it and make sure I always have what I need.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I see the pain in your words and wonder is it really worth staying?? Why be unhappy in life,why not be happy.Yes it is hard to walk away believe me I know but I would rather be happy alone,then live a misserable life then die.

Way toooo familiar to me! Hurt we should go riding together and get Ginger to go and put her on a horse. We all can talk and have some equine therapy. We have great trails that run by the river here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Big checks!! LOL That's funny because that has been the aurguement that has been going on in the house over the last week or so. I told him that I want to stay in the house. I know sounds really terrible and selfish of me, but I want him to pay for the house while he lives at his Dads for free. His Dad won't charge him anything. Besides he is closer to work. LOL. is that mean of me??? Really am I asking too much?

Ali~