</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ali88:
<strong> Oh yeah, one more thing... SAVE A HORSE, RIDE A COWBOY!...Now that is not men bashing is it??? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um...given a rider's crop and spurs, I'd say it definitely qualifies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Oops sorry I did put BS in my post and meant WS but anyway I dont think this was a thread on men bashing,it was on having a friend of the opposite sex................can it be done.

And I am sorry to say but I disagree w/losthusband because even the best of people who fall into infidelity are weak to a point.Yes they are strong people but they found a weakness at the point of not being able to say "NO" I will not back down on this point.Men and women alike that can not turn away from an A are weak.

LOL Gnome! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But it is a great song!!!

Ali~

Weak will do it! You go girlie! Anyone who is weak or vulnerable can be setup! But there are perpetrators who will look for an affair because the are feeling sorry for themselves or angry. Friendship are just that friendships.

So this again goes back to the question from when harry met sally, can men and women be friends? I say yes! Others????

Ali~

Hi all. I'm not going to make any blanket comments on whether or not someone will cheat if they have opposite sex friends. Personally, I think there is always an exception to the rule. However, I will comment on some things from my experience as a FWS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friends, help you heal, they walk w/you thru the process, they help you become health, boost your self-esteem when you have been blindsided </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all honesty, this is how my emotional connection to OM was formed. He was a 'friend' during my 'time of need.' In fact, I was not attracted to OM at first. I remember thinking "ugh - wonder what anyone saw in him." Catty? yes. Rude? probably. Arrogant and unsafe? definitely.

I had no intentions of more than a 'friendly' relationship with OM. But here's the deal. That support/self esteem boost he gave me.....it was dangerous. It became a pillar. What started as a 'friendship' slowly turned into an EA. Did we talk about having sex? No. Did we say anything to each other about mutual interest in each other? No. But we did become each other's support systems.

After about 3 months of deep talks, and supportive comments, OM mentioned that he just wanted to know what it would be like to kiss me. For 2 months I refused. I said 'No.' But I also didn't want to give up his frienship. I thought I could control it.

Finally, one day I mentally divorced my H. It was Dec 24, 2002. I remember the exact moment, the exact conversation, and the exact feelings. Almost like knowing where you were when Kennedy was assasinated or when 9/11 happened. I didn't 'give in' to the A until about 3 weeks later. But even right up until the moment that the PA started, I refused any type of physical advance.

The thing is - for me - my A was extremely out of character. I never thought I would have one. I thought my morals were such that I could never do that to my H. Particularly since I had suffered infidelity on his part when we were engaged.

But I did. I couldn't bear the thought of giving up OM as a friend, and gradually the friendship made him more physically attractive. Add in the fact that he kept pushing me. Add in that H and I had not had physical relations in a long time. Throw in a bit of emotional and verbal abuse from my H - and VOILA! I had my A.

I'm not saying this can happen to everybody. But it can happen. Not one of my friends or family would have ever believed that I would have an A. I didn't believe I could have an A. But sometimes circumstances facilitate your being a person you never thought you could be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"If you think you are standing strong, be careful, for you, too, may fall into the same sin." It is exactly when you think that you can trust yourself that you are at your most vulnerable. I attribute my fidelity throughout my marriage primarily to the fact that I did not trust myself - although I had no reason not to! - and so I set up boundaries for myself so that I would never be in a situation where I might be tempted to stray. Note that I set the boundaries not at the point which I believed would actually be straying, but at the point where I might be tempted.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gnomme - this is an excellent post, IMVHO. After my A, my H believed he was superior morally. He would degrade me, insult me, and call me names because of what I had done. And what do you know? Even though he was morally 'above' having an A......he went ahead and had his own A anyhow. He then justified it by saying it was my A that made him do it.

If H and I had set our boundaries so that we would never have been tempted , then neither of our A's would have happened. They were both formed from 'friendships' with a person of the opposite sex.

I'm not going to take a stance on whether someone can be a 'friend' to someone of the opposite sex. Nor am I going to comment on whether some people are capable of an A or not. Finally, I will not speculate why some people do not end up having A's and others do.

Why? Because all of my original beliefs (it's OK to be 'friends', I am not capable, and only people who are morally immature) were usurped by my own A. No longer do I believe that anybody is immune to becoming a person they would never want to be. Whether that is an infidel, an abuser, a codependent, or a murderer. We all have the potential to crack under pressure. And no amount of moral maturity can withstand too much too fast.

Just my 2 cents......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes they are strong people but they found a weakness at the point of not being able to say "NO" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are all weak in some ways.....sometimes. And when we feel weak, we turn to someone for support.

Yes, the WS is weak when they are not able to say 'no.' But how many people continue to drink when they know it destroys themselves and their families. How many people smoke that ciggarette knowing that they are destroying themselves, and the people around them?

An alcoholic does not bring alcohol into his home. And if he does go to a bar with friends, he takes necessary precautions to ensure that he will not drink. A former smoker will not surround themselves with current smokers. Nor will they keep a pack of ciggarettes in the house.

Now, will they definitely drink, smoke, have an A? No. But the odds are much more likely when you surround yourself with temptation. Why bother tempting the devil?

Lost - If you are still reading - eventhough you said your tired of this thread..Heck, I'm almost sorry I started it.LOL..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I was agreeing with you. But I’m going to disagree with you on one simple point, knowledge of one’s “emotionally” status does matter, IMHO.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here I thought you were being sarcastic..IMHO - knowing where I am emotionally gives me inner strength to fight off any temptations.
Yes, "things happen" but only if you allow - only when you say YES - rather than NO..and yes, you can get "caught up in the moment" - but, truly I feel strong enough and scared enough to step out of the fire. I have been damaged beyond belief..I have been denied SF for so long I can't even imagine SF w/my own WH let alone a stranger.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well let’s just hope that your reflexes are good then. Please understand, I have only stayed with this out of care for you as a person. And not only do I not want to see you get hurt by another man, I don’t want to see anyone hurt themselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I too do not want to be hurt, used, or disrespected. I've had too much of that for too long..I'm learning what's normal and what's not. What's acceptable and what's not. I'm learning it's about me..my dignity..and I don't want someone to take that away.

Ali88: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I think the SP needs to see that "we" are moving on so maybe they will budge!!! I think most of us are smart. But we are posting on the divorce forum not General Questions or Just Found Out. So I believe that our marriages is over and no reconciliation is in the future. ??? Yes, no?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely..WH IMHO has moved on emotionally/physically and left me to hang out to dry..So as I said b-4 - he heard I had a BF - so now he's sniffing around..doesn't want me to be a strong/independant women..wants me weak and dependant on him. Can we say - Narcissist..PD?? Probably alittle of it. He was happy crapping on me - till he heard this - now he's showing interest..He's months to late..and I know what I require he can't do/be, and I won't settle for less. He must do a 180 for me to even consider recovery. I know deep in his heart he still loves me - but it's not enough to beat his sexual addiction issues. He's afraid to go back and start over w/me and I'm not even sure that I want to be seen in public w/him - I've lost all respect for him. W/O respect we have nothing together.

Gnome - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah, one more thing... SAVE A HORSE, RIDE A COWBOY!...Now that is not men bashing is it???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um...given a rider's crop and spurs, I'd say it definitely qualifies. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To women that love their horses and enjoy sex - we don't see it as man bashing..Yep - I have my spurs and whip - some men might find that to be "fun"..LOL

Ginger - I agree - it is weak to have an A..It is the easy way to "solve your unhappiness or discontent..It's a cry for help yet they won't grab the life preserver - they don't trust it or themselves..

Ali88: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But there are perpetrators who will look for an affair because the are feeling sorry for themselves or angry. Friendship are just that friendships.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's exactly what my WH is a perpetrator..A bored/depressed man who finds drinking/womanizing to solve his problems. The narcissist says I don't need a dr. I need AD's..there is nothing wrong with me..it's everybody else..It's easier to cheat on my wife than to fulfill myself in other ways..Exercise, read, visit wifes horse, house chores, etc. Hey, this works for me - and I get EN fulfilled and SF this is great..

LIT - yes, A's are an easy trap to fall into - most of us don't set out to have an A..THey happen as Lost mentioned too - but knowing ones self is more than half the battle. Being a horribly BS wakes you up to the reality of infidelity..You won't do it to someone else because you first hand know the horrific pain it cause for the BS and the WS and anyone else remotely involved. The pain doesn't go away..
Don't you know better now?? Don't you wish it all away?

L.I.T and all....

Some people know their limits and some don't. Others that do know when to say no are most likely not to compromise their positions. Others without self control is likely to self medicate themselves when down with drugs, alcohol, affairs. Yes, I believe in certain circumstances that A. are a bandage to the soul. A self esteem booster. Or as in MB terms. Love deposits that are missing from the SP. But is it mind over matter? "I know this is wrong but look how I feel"??? It is a choice.Some doen't realize that it is a choice. Most people who start smoking, drinking, over eating or doing street drugs know that it is addicting and nothing good comes out of it. But they start anyways because they get something out of it. Just like affairs.

Once the butterflies start fluttering in the stomach and much of their time is spent thinking or being with OP this should be a huge warning flag to back off. To the self controllers this is easy. Because most of them are looking at the whole picture. I know we cannot control our feelings. Our feelings are natural. Especially when we find someone attractive by looks or intellectual. But we can control the circumstance. Now, let's pretend we are talking about me here. Since my marriage has been dead for a long time ago and I am in a marriage in convenience, if one of my friendships go further, will I continue? Most likely I will. Why? Because my marriage emotionally is over. Gulp! Go easy! I do have morals.

So basically what I am saying here is that there are two types of people, the self controller and the uncontrolled behavior!


Ali~

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To women that love their horses and enjoy sex - we don't see it as man bashing..Yep - I have my spurs and whip - some men might find that to be "fun"..LOL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hurt, don't forget the chaps!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Teeeheee.


Come on have a little fun and humor here! Guys wear chaps, spurs and hold crops too you know!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ali88:
<strong>...Some people know their limits and some don't. Others that do know when to say no are most likely not to compromise their positions. ...Once the butterflies start fluttering in the stomach and much of their time is spent thinking or being with OP this should be a huge warning flag to back off. To the self controllers this is easy. Because most of them are looking at the whole picture. ...So basically what I am saying here is that there are two types of people, the self controller and the uncontrolled behavior!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if it were really that simple, there would be a lot fewer broken marriages and broken people in the world.

By the time those "butterflies start fluttering" I suspect it is generally too late. What is apparently so difficult to understand is the powerful distorting effect of dissonance on perceptions and thinking.

Think of the man who walks into a bar with a firm decision to limit his number of drinks, but who then discovers (looking back on it the next day) that by the time he reached his limit he was already too impaired to keep to his plan. It's kind of like that.

The irony is that with all the talk here about "the fog" - both the WS and the BS varieties - it really ought to be easy to sense how close to the precipice we all stand. But apparently it's not.

Personally, I suspect that "the two types of people" in this world are really those who understand that no one is immune to falling, and those who have yet to learn it. By the grace of God there may be a third group who manage to get through life in blissful ignorance of their own peril, but in my opinion if they take all the credit for their successful passage they are merely deceiving themselves.

All that said, I admit that I have always had about as many opposite-sex friends as same-sex friends. I absolutely think it is possible to have friends of the opposite sex. I just think it is foolish not to take wise precautions when it is so easy to cultivate friendships in relatively safe ways. During the times when I knew I was most emotionally vulnerable, even when I did not believe there was any chance of anything inappropriate happening, I simply did not spend time with a woman friend unless there were other people around - preferably including my wife and/or the friend's husband in the cases where one or both of us were married.

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: GnomeDePlume ]</small>

OK, the more we analyze this the more we are going to go insane. At least I will. But each person is their own. Who the heck really knows what is going on on the inside of a persons head??? I know that for me, I can be friends with men. I was vulnerable but I didn't accept the affairs when I was approached. I had advances thrown at me quite a bit. Just like tonight, I was at a grocery store with my kids screaming and acting like little monkeys for cry'in out loud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think Hurt orginally needed support that she wasn't doing anything wrong. We are not the WS, we are the BS. We are the "sensible" ones and the ones posting on the divorce forum! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I suspect that "the two types of people" in this world are really those who understand that no one is immune to falling, and those who have yet to learn it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said! I agree with you there!

Ali~

Ali88 - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Hurt orginally needed support that she wasn't doing anything wrong. We are not the WS, we are the BS. We are the "sensible" ones and the ones posting on the divorce forum!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ABSOLUTELY..While WH has many female "friends"/sexual partners that I am not aware of - I wanted support that my making a new friend wasn't morally wrong. I do know how to make friends w/o it becoming sexual, even if WH doesn't know how to separate "friends" I do.. If I was seen in public w/a friend I didn't want people that know me to think I too was in an A..I didn't want WH to think because he "heard" I was talking to a man in bar or whereever - that I had a BF.

Again, I look for the safe situation..And if as Gnome mentioned the "butterfies" start fluttering - I better run like hell..BEFORE it's too late..That's exactly why I won't go to Vegas and call a guy that I know I'd fall into bed with - because I was attracted to him in the past..I'd be like butter w/him and I won't put myself in that situation. That situation would be like putting a bottle in front of an alcholic - I wont' "set myself up" for failure..

Ali88

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITHURTS:
<strong>If I was seen in public w/a friend I didn't want people that know me to think I too was in an A..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've got just two ways of dealing with that, since you can't control what other people think.

Either do what you want without regard to whatever mistaken impression others may get, or avoid putting yourself in a situation where others are likely to get the wrong idea.

Ali88 - FOrget to mention this... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since my marriage has been dead for a long time ago and I am in a marriage in convenience, if one of my friendships go further, will I continue? Most likely I will. Why? Because my marriage emotionally is over. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my experience (remember I married my affair partner) in my prior M I wasn't "in love" anymore either..
I should have been smarter - I should have gotten strong on my own - my affair partner gave me strength to leave my M..That was wrong..I should have found out what I truly wanted in a M - before I jumped into another one. If I would have taken that time - I may not be where I am today..I may have seen red flags..Seen that I was being controlled - and I was out of control..

Be careful..truly end and move on w/o a partner before you find one that will end up as a "matter of convenience" again.

Cyber Hugs..

Hey, if you decide to come to Equine Affaire let me know - we can hook up for a drink/dinner..Watch some "chaps" going by..hahhahha

Post deleted by Tempest

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ali88:
<strong> Now, let's pretend we are talking about me here. Since my marriage has been dead for a long time ago and I am in a marriage in convenience, if one of my friendships go further, will I continue? Most likely I will. Why? Because my marriage emotionally is over. Gulp! Go easy! I do have morals.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man ((((Ali)))) I could have a field day with that statement and do you know how many WS's have justified their affairs with that exact type of thinking? But let's slip to the bottom line. What do you want to teach your children about marriage? OK... Live it...

Lost - See Angela was a SAFE FRIEND..of the opposite sex..They exist - we agree..and that is the ONLY type of male friend that I want. I don't want/need more emotional rollercoaster feelings in my life..

THe warning is well noted, imbedded in my mind..I appreciate the insight, the warning..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But further, I say that going out on dates (or what ever you want to call it) with male friends is no different than you bottle of alcohol theory. If you go out enough times, eventually, you won’t run. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's definately not viewed in my eyes as a "date" A date is a date - I know the difference. Believe me - If it appears this OP is looking for a "date" or has any romatic thoughts - I'll give em'the boundary talk and if they cannot keep it within my boundary - then I move on and find other friends..

I am still legally/morally Married..I still have love left in my heart. Ali on the other hand doesn't, so she can date..I cannot love one and sleep w/another..It's not a part of my make-up..I require committment/exclusivity and I expect those same traits in myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so you truly can move on with all those great attributes that you desire.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a bit of faith left that WH may be able to recapture those attributes that I desire. And that one ounce of faith carries me thru each day - carries me thru not looking for "love in all the wrong places"..Some would call me foolish for all that I have put up w/all the hurt I've carried - but I continue to dangle from that rope. Some will say - he'll do this to you again. Run for life. He's playing you for a fool..Maybe he is..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is absolutely nothing Classy about a married woman in a bar with another man, whether they are doing the horizontal mambo or not.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL...Here I thought it was the horizontal Cha-Cha..I'll agree - but, I'll also hold fast to men and women can be freinds..

“””Lost - See Angela was a SAFE FRIEND..of the opposite sex..They exist..”””

In part, yes. However, let me go a step further with that. I told her five million, six hundred forty-two thousand, eight hundred twelve times that we were only friends and would never be anything more. She admitted that she desired more and pushed boundaries. Even said once that she knew what I had said but had hoped I would change my mind. I was a safe friend, she wasn’t. Had I let my guard down once, it would of led me down a path I didn’t want to go down. Now, we no longer talk, because of many factors, one being that, one being how I acted when I was drinking. I could go on and on about her “male” friends, but let’s just say that I may have been the only one that didn’t have some type of sexual contact.

“””we agree..and that is the ONLY type of male friend that I want.”””

See above before you start doing the victory dance and make sure you do it vertically…LOL

“”” I'll give em' the boundary talk”””

See above about the boundary talk.

“””I am still legally/morally Married..I still have love left in my heart. Ali on the other hand doesn't, so she can date..”””

Ali is divorced? It’s my opinion that if you are living together as a married couple, for what ever reason, and you are raising children, then you should train them with your behavior.

“””but, I'll also hold fast to men and women can be friends..”””

I agree and I’ve always agreed with that fact. But I’ll hold fast to my opinion that if you go to the barber shop enough times, especially when you are not happy with your hair style, eventually you’ll get a haircut whether you really want one or not.