I just read a post by Gemini1 which asked what I believe is a number one question for me lately - what do H's think they can offer the OC by personal contact?<P>My H has two children from a previous marriage and two with me. He knew from the beginning how I felt about the OC - pay the money and forget you ever knew either the OW or OC (it sounds awful to see it written but it is how I felt).<P>Well, since my H came from a broken home, he felt guilty about having a child somewhere out there and wanted to keep contact. This he accomplished for years by sneaking around behind my back and lying to me about his involvement. This sneaking led to our D-day last year when I found out and the whole thing blew up again.<P>I was having a conversation with my H a few days ago and I mentioned to him that "his kids were welcome to come for next weekend". Well, he gives me this funny look and then asks am I being sarcastic about the OC?<P>That set off a small explosion inside me and the LBs that followed were epic proportion. I told him that I would never have placed the OC on the same level with his two children from a previous marriage or my own. <P>I pointed out that I do not consider the OC his daughter. I consider her a "mistake" that resulted from a sperm donation to a slut. Although his first marriage ended in divorce, at least the children were conceived in love and within the commitment of a marriage, they were not a desperate attempt by a loser to trap a man that was committed to someone else into staying with her when she knew he was not interested.<P>Then, unfortunately, I told him that all he had succeeded in doing by keeping contact with the OC was to destroy the lives of five children and a loving wife. He DID not improve the OC's life. He was NOT there for the major events in her life. He shared NOTHING with her except stolen, guilty moments and lies. <P>And I ended up by congratulating him for being "father f-up" who was not happy ruining one innocent life, but had to systematically ruin life for the rest of us.<P>The man looked at me as if I had suddenly gone insane and then said "You really feel that way don't you, that I have ruined your life?" Aaaaarrrrgggghhh!!!!!!! Sometimes I wonder if my H lives on my planet.<P>I then told him that aside from everything else I said, it was obvious that he is living in a false reality where everything is how he imagines it rather than how it really is. <P>He has not made any contribution to the life of the OC except to make her acutely aware that she has brothers and sisters who have something she never had -- a loving two-parent family. He visits her by riding her around in the car and taking her to McDonald's because he has no home to bring her to. He has never spent a Christmas morning watching her open her presents, he has never comforted her when she was sick or spent one whole night in her home.<P>Is it just arrogance that makes some men believe that just knowing them makes everyone's lives better and more wonderful? I am sorry but in my opinion a father is a person who is there for a child in every way -- not just a person who gives a name and a check and visits from time to time.<P>The best thing that a father who truly cares about the future of his creation could do is GET OUT OF THEIR LIFE so that the mother can meet someone who WILL BE the father for that child. <P>But to tie the family that you claim to love to an 18-year reminder of infidelity, lies, and betrayal is about the most cruel and selfish thing that anyone can do. Such an action is about the MAN, not about the child. That is his vanity (oh, yes, look at me, I can still make babies) tied in with his selfishness (I want what I want regardless of who it hurts).<P>Now that I have finished my world-class rant, I am very interested in possible answers to the question of what men could have in their minds when they want to continue a relationship with the OC. Those of you who have H's in this situation and they have told you their feelings could be especially helpful.<P>Those who have deranged H's like mine can be helpful in offering me some much needed sympathy to stop me from being on the front page of the newspaper for murder.<P>Thanks for listening. God bless us all.<BR>- Heavenly<P>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited January 13, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited January 14, 2001).]

heavenly,<P>i don't have an answer to your question, but i agree with you on everything you said. i think it is much worse on a child to have a part time dad, especially when it is done in secret. i would feel terrible to know that my dad has a "real" family and i am just someone he brings presents and never can really spend time with me. <P>i think these men who think they can be a father to these children are just being selfish. the best thing is for the mother to find a man who will be the childs father, that simple. but these women play on the mans heart sometimes and make it harder for them to distance themselves.<P>i know i would not be able to accept the OC as part of my life. i don't consider her his daughter. he doesn't either. it is what has to be for us. he has proven to me that our marriage is the most important. i am not saying he chose not to want to be involved in OC's life because of me, because he simply wants nothing to do with her. but i think part of him knows that this is what is best for us. we have had lots of discussions and he thinks the OW can find someone to be a father to her child if she wants. though she didn't want one to begin with. she wanted to be a mother, now she is one. <P>i am so sorry you had to go through that terrible discussion with your H. but you have every right to the feelings you have. how can he not think he has ruined your life!! i think he is definitely from another planet heavenly. it is not you, trust me. <P>i wish i could offer some good advice, but i can't. i just want to say that i am behind you. and pray for you. take care and i am sure some of our fellow friends here will soon give you some insight.<P>love, happy_girl

I am going to share something a friend told me and in no way do I mean for it to be an argument or challenge to your viewpoint or your choices in this situation. I still respect those who chose no-contact.<P>My H and I agree that he can never be any major contributor or father-figure while living long-distance from OC and we are not willing to live near XOW again. I do think for those couples nearby and willing to share custody, it can be similar to a "normal" step-child relationship when all the adults ACT like adults (not always possible).<P>But the thing my friend D. said to me (D.'s father was alcoholic and apart from his legal family of wife and 5 kids most of the time): "Even though my father was a s**t, I'm glad I know who he was rather than know nothing at all." D. said she is glad I let the OC know who her father is. Even though we won't "be there", OC'll be able to ask H questions as she gets older, if she wishes. She can know that my H did not reject HER as a person. It is the difference between a known and an unknown. I knew a child of adultery in college, J. whose mother had died; J. did not have a picture or a name for her biodad, whom she only knew had a wife and 3 kids. J. had many painful, simple, unanswered questions and she had a real fear of unknowingly dating a biobrother. (I think it is worse than being a child of adoption and to me XOWs ought to opt for adoption!) I am hoping that by leaving a SMALL route of communication open, certain things will be less mysterious and less painful for my H, the OC, and maybe even my own kids, without being a threat to my family. <P>I have told the story before of the OC whom my uncle fathered over 30 years ago and how she came to my father when she turned 18 to ask for pictures of/information about her biodad, who had died years before. Living through that experience of my parents not holding it against OC personally, being polite with OC privately without taking her into the family, not hurting my aunt, set my tone for dealing with our unfortunate OC. <P>I hope this made sense without offending.<BR>J

Jenny,<BR>No offense taken.<P>In my case ow is married with 3 kids.<BR>She threw her H out.<BR>She threw her c's father out in favor of wanting my H.<P>Ow's H said HE would raise c as his own,but not pay,my H will have to.(and will)<BR>Ow said NO.<P>C will be told of bio-dad.<P>C can find bio-dad when c is old enough to ask q's.<P>C is not even here yet and has so many problems already with my H's family who do not want anything to do with H's c. They don't accept it as family. Why subject c to all of us who feel that way?<P>It would be better to be raised w/bro. and sisters as a family who will show love not rejection. H can answer q's when and if time comes.<P>For him to seemingly disregard the feelings of whom he's spent more than 1/2 of his life with in favor of "doing the right thing by the c" is the true shame.<P>I have heard through school mom's that ow oldest D is giving her grief over this. She is a pre-teen and so angered by her mom's actions. D hates my H. To see my H over and over to get oc will cause her more pain.<P>My mom had A and divorced my dad to spend life with om.(never married him)<P>It caused me pain and I was filled with resentment every time he came to spend holidays or other times w/my sisters and me.<P>His 2 D's DISOWNED him. They never contacted him again.(they were 19 and 21 at time)<P>OM died a lonly death from cancer in 1988.<P>He never once had a visit from his D's.<P>My mom took care of him. She called 1 of his D's who hung up on my mom.<P>Now that my dad is 71 and mom 69 they live seperate but spend every day together taking rides out of town to eat and shop and watching my sister's D their only grandaughter a few times a week and other activities.<P>I know my mom lives to regret what she did.<P>She has become very religious.<P>I know she knows there will always be resentment from me towards her for what she did. I try not to show it. Same goes for my sisters. The sister closest to me is single but was plagued with problems in H.school after my parents d.<P>My other sister was only in 3rd grade but had problems too.<P>Sorry to go on and on Jenny.<P>I guess I was trying to say H's should do what is best for c and let it be raised without part time hours of interference. It could only hurt to not be able to spend more time than that.<P>No family vacations,dinners,holidays,birthdays,etc.<P>See my point? <P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....<p>[This message has been edited by gemini1 (edited January 14, 2001).]

hey, i am back on this. gemini, i agree with you completely. you made some very good points. i guess i don't see the whole wondering who my parent is thing, i was raised by a single dad and have never once wanted to find my mom. my sister did, and i still have no relationship with her except occasional email. i knew basically who she was and had a picture of her. that was enough for me, my dad was everything to me.<P>jenny, no offense taken, but i don't agree with you. to me, it is either contact or absolutely NO contact. a child can be perfectly fine with one parent and the woman has every right to marry again, etc to provide a father if she wants one for her child. i don't see it work too much where the h/w/ow can just work it out like one big happy family. it is just not right. and if they could act like adults, we most likely wouldn't have to be here in this situation.<P>it is 3:20am. and i was woken up by another cat outside my apt trying to get in and play?? with my cat. now i can't sleep and i am grumpy and tired.<P>happy_girl

I'm sorry, Jenny, while I certainly understand your particular situation and your reasons for involvement, I completely and emphatically agree with Heavenly on all counts. For me. In fact, Heavenly, I bow to your eloquent and concise explanation/description of your feelings on this matter and wholeheatedly agree. I bet you are a terror in the courtroom.<P>It's the best argument I have ever seen on this issue and I suggest we all print this up for ourselves and for our husbands and read it often...especially you, Gemini. Your husband needs to see this!<P>Thank you, Heavenly, for this thread. I am curious to know what your husband's final reaction was to all this. Did he finally understand the impact his actions have had on you and your family? Why was he so shocked that this had ruined your life? If he didn't think that this should have little impact on you, why did he hide this from you for so many years? <P>I remember the first week after discovery, my husband said to me, "Maybe we could get the child and raise it ourselves". I sat in stunned disbelief and said "You expect me to raise this child as I did your other two children? I'm sorry but it was a thankless job and above that, there is no way I could have anything to do with this kid. I couldn't be involved with a constant reminder of the worst possible thing that could ever happen to us."<P>I told my counselor this and he was shocked and as stunned as I was. He said, "What is he thinking? This is very different from raising his two children by a previous marriage! Those children were born before he ever knew you! It's a completely different situation."<P>Heavenly, you're right on target. Thank you.<P>Catnip =^^=

Heavenly,<P>As usual, you're right on target and I agree with everything you said! I feel like you, pay the money and forget about ow and oc. I also know it may sound cold to others, but that's too bad. It's how I feel. I never asked for this oc to be born and certainly never gave consent. That child was born out of lies and betrayal. I don't wish the child any harm whatsoever. However, I don't have to feel guilty (and I don't) about now wanting her anywhere in my life. I could never handle it and it would mean the end of my marriage. My H has always known this. He never wanted anything to do with OC either. Not just because of me, but because he never wanted to. He, too, simply looks upon this OC as a "mistake" and the child support as another monthly bill (one we should NEVER be paying because it should NEVER have happened) But it did, and my H literally has to pay for his "mistake". I'm fine with my decision to totally forget about this OC and move forward. I'm with you, Happy_girl and Catnip....best wishes to the other child for a happy and healthy life, but stay away from mine. Let the OW meet someone else who may be the father that the oc may need. The OW knew very well that my H would NEVER be a H to her or a father to her child because he already had a wife and children at home. Yet inspite of that, she made her decision to have this child. So, let her deal with it. I pray daily that I will learn to trust my H even half as much as I use to and we work daily to keep our marriage strong and moving forward together. That is a lot of work, emotionally. I don't have time or desire to feel guilty over a situation I had nothing to do with creating and I won't. So, I agree with you! Thanks for saying what I've felt and saying it so eloquently and concisely. <P>God bless<P>Comfort<P>------------------<BR>Remember the sunshine when the storm seems unending...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:<BR><B><BR>I told my counselor this and he was shocked and as stunned as I was. He said, "What is he thinking? This is very different from raising his two children by a previous marriage! Those children were born before he ever knew you! It's a completely different situation."<P>Catnip =^^=</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>it is also different for the fact that if you go in to a marriage with a person that already has children, you know up front that you might be raising his/her children. you know there will be contact with ex-W, etc. if you have a problem with that, you shouldn't get married to that person.<P>but these children were not part of the marriage. they were as comfort said,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> born out of lies and betrayal. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>marrying a person with children and doing the whole step-family relationships is fine because you are going into in expecting all the problems and joys that can come with it. but when an affair results in a child, it unfortunately seems to me an impossible painful situation for the original intact family. <P>let it be the mother who explains why she selfishly kept the child (and knowingly slept with a married man to top it all off!), basically securing her child a life with out her biological father. that is her problem. not mine. <P>the man's first responsibility is to the wife he swore to love forever and the children brought from that marriage. had he not broken the vows in the first place, we wouldn't be here. but he did, and to make things right, his allegiance should be to his family. not the OW and the OC. if they want that, they should leave. can't have your cake and eat it too. leave the macho stuff behind and get it right with your family.<P>happy_girl<P><p>[This message has been edited by happy_girl (edited January 14, 2001).]

Thank you everyone who answered so quickly and wisely! <P>Happy_girl: Thank you for quickly coming to my defense and re-affirming that I am not the one living on Mars! It is obvious from his comments that my H has either not grasped the full gravity of what his actions have caused or he is in total denial.<P>Jenny: You could NEVER offend. From the time I started posting I have looked forward to your wisdom because it is so balanced. The best thing for me would be for my H to share my feelings. But he doesn't and I know he never will. He is not seeing the OC now, but it is a matter of time before his guilt gets the best of him. <P>That is why I was looking for some type of understanding of what could be going on in his mind. Many of the things that you said made sense as possible feelings he may have. Since he came from a broken home, I can see that it would be very important for him to show the OC that he did not reject HER. He has often said to me in the past the very same thing you said -- that he wished our relationship with the OC could have been like a normal step-child relationship. <P>Gemini: Your son's rejection of the situation is something that I constantly worry about with my kids. When they find out about the OC, I do not want it to destroy the relationship that they have with their dad. They have been brought up in a sheltered and loving environment and they are completely unaware of the ugliness that exists in the world (like conniving OWs). It would be the ultimate disaster if they also distance themselves from their dad when they find out.<P>Happy_girl again: You are proof that the quality of the single parent home is everything. The OC could be happy with her mother alone until an appropriate man came into their lives. But her happiness would be diminished if she has these infrequent glimpses of the kind of life she COULD have only to be returned to the life she is in.<P>If, in fact, the pregnancy was an accident and the OW just wanted to have the baby then why tell our H's and why go after our money? The kinds of things they have done to deliberately hurt and destroy our families tell us that their acts were malicious and deliberate.<P>Catnip: Dear, dear Catnip... you boost my ego more than anyone I know on this board and in my life! I am indeed a terror in the courtroom -- quick to analyze presentations and develop counter-arguments, and always on top of my cases -- a real control freak! I guess that is why this situation, which is so out of my control and illogical, drives me to the brink of insanity at times...<P>My H and I continued to have words over our fight for two days. He finds it amazing that I think about the OW and the OC constantly. It is not even a conscious thought, it is like they are always hanging over me. For example, when he smiles at a pregnant woman or a mother with a child, I wonder if he looked lovingly at the OW when she was pregnant or is remembering something cute about the OC when she was born.<P>He told me that he knew our marriage would have ended long ago if he had told me that he wanted to have contact with the OC. But he believes that since his visits to the OC never interfered with anything in our lives that the OC is something completely separate from us!? I think he means that it is an "out of sight, out of mind" situation. <P>He kept saying to me that he never intrudes the OC into any discussions or into our lives in any way. He simply wanted to make sure that she was okay and that was why he kept limited contact. He even acknowledged what I said that he has never seen her on a major holiday, he has never seen her on her actual birthday, nor has he been able to participate in many school functions, though occasionally he did.<P>Since he kept his life with this OC completely away from his real life with me, he can't understand why I am so hurt and upset by it. He acknowledges that it was wrong to lie to me, but he feels that he was justified because he did not want to inflict any more pain on me.<P>Meanwhile, I completely agree with what you said - this is the worst possible thing that could happen in a marriage - whether it is flaunted in my face or kept behind a closed door.<P>Comfort: The OW in my life also knew that my H would never be a H to her or father to her OC. My H had been seeing this woman for about a year while we were having some problems in our marriage. He and I had just made the decision to re-commit to each other and he was trying to get out of the relationship with her. Immediately at this point she announced that she was pregnant. The whole thing was nothing but cheap leverage to hopefully keep my H. <P>Happy_girl summed it up perfectly - my H needs to leave the macho stuff behind and make it right with his family. <P>But you know, I realize that he is a grown man and the scars he has from his horrible home life when growing up will never heal. So, I feel that I have to find a way to cope with his feelings and even find a happy medium that will help him deal with his guilt feelings. <P>That's why I appreciate the opportunity that Jenny gave to look into his mind and see what he might be thinking. That way I might be able to find the arguments that would help him to feel better about his new decision on "no contact".<P>Thanks everybody for your usual great support and your wisdom. Those of you whose H's don't want any contact are truly lucky -- that alone reduces so much anxiety in these situations.<P>If there are any H's with ex-OWs lurking, your point of view would also be appreciated.<BR>And, sorry this reply was sooooo long.<P>Bless you all<BR>- Heavenly<p>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited January 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heavenlybody26:<BR><B>He finds it amazing that I think about the OW and the OC constantly</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heavenly:<P>My husband also marvels at my capacity to obsess. In fact, it absolutely stuns him that I wallow and ruminate about this at all, because, he says, he never gives it a second thought, or a first one.<P>My husband is lucky to live 1800 miles from the OW/OC situation and it truly is "out of sight, out of mind". <P>As the oldest child of eight, he spent his formative and adolescent years with Mom, Dad, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins...a real Walton's Family Christmas...every day. He adores the children we have even though he tended to be non-involved during manic phases and neglected them a little; he was always friendly, loving and talked to them. They adore him. I guess I am surprised, given his enormous love and sensitivity, that the OC is not a 'pull' to him.<P>I really held my breath those first few months and one day mustered the courage to ask him straight out if he had any desire to see OC. <P>He told me, "She's not real to me. I know she exists, because the courts say so and expect me to pay support, but I've never seen her nor do I intend to or desire to. I wish her well, but this was OW's decision and plan. She set me up and knew I was sick at the time. If she wants keep the OC, then it is her decision, one that I was not consulted on."<P>He went on to remind me that when he asked what he needed to do to come home, I had told him that he could never have contact with the OW or OC as long as we were married. He agreed to that then and never questioned it since.<P>I realize how lucky I am to be spared from having the OC an issue in our lives. However, two and a half years into this, I admit I am softening a bit. I don't know, maybe it is Jenny's influence and pragmatic way of looking at things and her enormous big heart, but if we could completely control the situation as she is doing in alliance with her husband, I might not be entirely opposed to contact if I was forced into it. I don't know. Ask me tomorrow. My opinion on this changes with my mood.<P>But, like you, Heavenly, I think the child suffers to have only 'scraps' of a father when her mother should be busy finding a nice dad for her to love her and make her life whole. Like everything else, it depends on the situation. There is no guarantee the OW will ever find a decent caring stepdad for the OC, and this pains me.<P>Then on the other hand, Happy Girl's situation is testimony that sometimes children do just fine, and even thrive with just one parent.<P>BTW, never apologize for long posts, Heavenly, or I'll be apologizing til the cows come home.<P>Catnip =^^= <BR>

Thank you all for saying all the things I have always felt but never knew how to say.<BR>My H also has no contact with OC and says he wants none.<BR>He also feels that child was concieved out of lies and wants nothing to do with it. we pay child support and provide medical insurance but that is it. '<BR>Every few weeks or so we get a letter from OW with medical bills for OC but there is no information regarding child and I handle all responses. <BR>J tigger

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He told me that he knew our marriage would have ended long ago if he had told me that he wanted to have contact with the OC. But he believes that since his visits to the OC never interfered with anything in our lives that the OC is something completely separate from us!? I think <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is what my H thinks!!!!! OMG!!!! Like it would be a golf outing! Amazing!!! Oh Heavenly I feel so bad for all of us.<P>My son has calmed down with xanax. Tomorrow is family counsel. My H left to go watch games without speaking to me. I told him last night if he chooses visitation it will destroy our marriage. Maybe he wants a divorce...I don't know,I will do it if it's what he wants. It will be painful, but not the pain I would feel if he has c in his life.<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gemini:<P>Watch that Xanax. I was on it over six months and became addicted to it for about three years. Withdrawal was awful. Go to the nutrition store and get vitamins and herbs for your son. They accomplish the same end result without a chemical addiction. I am telling you, the stuff was tough to get off. <P>Catnip =^^=

heavenly, Iam one of the lucky ones that has not had to deal with these issues of h wanting oc in our lives. I wonder if these guys think because we have been the ones that seem to be so in control always taking charge and such that maybe that is why they have that stupid amazed look . I feel as you do also I would feel so betrayed all over again for me and my family if h was seeing oc behind my back. I myself would have to say thats enough I dont think I would be able to handle anymore betrayel. I just dont understand what there thinking. Gem you are going threw with your son what we all dread will hit us one day when our little ones grow up and learn of this sickening thing there father has done. I just hope our little girl never has to know. I also believe it is just as awful for the oc to learn of how they were concieved my boss that I used to work for has a child that was a product of what we are dealing with. He is 25 years old now and was raised along with 12 brothers and sisters they are a very religious family. T is the 3 oldest child. I have known this family for 5 years that I worked there.All the family worked there except T was always the rebel son all the other kids did everything there father asked of them T always did the opposite of what his father wanted he was always quitting and finding jobs elsewhere . None of the other kids drank or did drugs or ciggs. T did all that and then some and he made it clear to all that he was.I never seen him disrespect my bosses wife which he thinks of as his mother. I think they had him from the day he was born. I didnt even know she was not his bio mother until after I had been there for 4 years. He had no respect for his father about a year before I quit T broke into the factory and stole some money. He ended up going to jail for a year but got out on work release to come there and work.When he was done with his jail time he did it again and now is sitting in prison for 5 to 10 years. I dont know alot of the details of his life other than I know the women that raised him is a wonderful lady and you could tell he thought so.As far as his father goes he had no respect for dear old dad.I also dont know if he knew this his whole life or if it was something he had learned when he had grown up. I think he learned about it after he was on his own. I always felt so sorry for him. with love flowerseed <P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

My H does not have or want contact either. When I finally spoke to the OW she was an idiot in regards to this too. She said she couldn't understand how my H could love our daughter so much and turn his back on her daughter. I told her because he doesn't consider that child his. He feels like he was a sperm donor. Just like sperm donors, they have legitimate children out there, but they don't have contact, and don't really care. She also was shocked that my husband told her that she could get rid of it now, or get rid of it later, he didn't care and wasn't going to have anything to do with her. I once again said, what did you expect. I have said it before the only sad part, and I mean sad for society. I am sure that the OC will be teen mom, just like the OW was. No matter what contact there is with the father if any, nothing will change the major influence which is the mother. And I hate to be blunt, but if the mom is a wh**re, than that is what she will represent to her child. It is hard to teach morals, and respect when the OW doesn't have any. I am rambling. Basically I agree with no contact. Men and there feeling of doing the right thing, of course I guess the right thing wasn't to be faithful. <P>babstr.

Catnip,I know it's addictive(xanax). We are using it short term with him.<BR>He was crying uncontrollably for hours and wanting to die. The zoloft takes a few weeks to kick in...he needs to have peace and calm till then. <BR>He knows if he's not feeling stable the pill will give him short term relief.<BR>Spent a sad weekend with his sweet girlfriend staying and watching movies with him. They went for a slow 2 hr. walk Sat and Sun at the park. Dr. said exercise will help .<P>It kills me to see my man/child suffer like this. He's like someone I do not recognize. <P>He told me our house is depressing because all his chilhood memories here now make him sad and he wants to go BACK to a happier time.... So sad.....<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

gem,<P>I am so sorry that your son is going through this. I am happy that he has such a supportive girlfriend that is there to help you out. Let us know how today goes, I hope your H will open up his eyes to the damage he has caused. You are in my prayers.<P>babstr.<P>

Heavenly, sorry I am just getting back to the board & didn't see this sooner. As you may recall, I am dedicated to the concept that contct with OC is destructive to the child. I have watched it first hand with my brother. NOTHING good has come out of it, other than the OC having knowledge of who his father is. And my brother is basically not someone who has anything to give a child (at least at this point in his life). If I was mother of OC I would FIGHT to keep OC away from this man who drives while drinking and has no problem with putting children in car with him (2 DUI involving child endangerment). God knows why anyone thinks the OC is benefiting from that knowledge.<P>I could repeat everything you have said on this issue. Giving the OC awareness of what they don't have is so very cruel. It just floors me that people will do this to a child. <P>I fear my H will do exactly the same thing of seeing OC behind my back. It has already started. He claims to not be connected to OC, but still goes to visit. OW is using this child to keep my H in her life. Well, it is working. <P>The only other little tidbit on "why" these men think staying in OC life is ok is that somehow they can see themselves as being "good guys". In the society we live in, everyone sees fathers who abandon as a**holes. Now, you and I both know these are not fathers who are abandoning a child conceived in a family environment. But all those "good folk" out there who have never been in our situation are quick to label any man who was sperm donor as a father. So to not look bad, your H and mine are easing their own conscienous about being a**hole. Maybe on one else knows about OC, but they do. And when they watch TV & see reports of deadbeat dads & fathers who abandon, they can pat themselves on the back for not being one of "them". Ego. All ego. Maybe not for your H, but for mine it is. Not just ego about being able to father a child, but being a "real man" and taking care of responsibility. Geezzz... what BS these guys believe.<P>As for visits not hurting anyone. They do. If my H wasn't spending time over there, he could spend time at scouts or basketball with my boys. Or with me. Or doing small chores around house (which he doesn't do). We won't even touch on the subject of totally tearing apart the "policy of joint agreement" or "honesty in a marriage". Lack of those two things are partially responsible for where you are at today. Once again (to quote from the other thread) "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". What is different here that before OC was born? <P>Heavenly, you and I could write the book on why men should not visit OC. I really appreciate you sharing your situation and pain over this. I know this is where I will be in two years if something very different doesn't happen. I came to this board looking for wisdom on what my future could possibly be and you have so very graciously share your history. This has been so helpful to me. Thank you for staying on this board!<P>Take care... Carolyn

Monday, January 15, 2001<P>Dear Bobby,<BR>Even though you see the pain you are causing me,your wife and Michael your son you give no answers.<P>The movie last night gave me a thought. Pretend you're in prison and if the child is yours leave it alone.<P>She got pregnant without your consent.<BR>She chooses to become a mother.<BR>If only being a mother was her concern ,why did she tell you?<BR>The only motive is to destroy anything you have with me,your wife.<BR>You asked her to abort...she would not.<P>For you to think your involvement wouldn't bother me is a very selfish way to think.<BR>If you reverse the situation,I would never hurt you that way. I wouldn't tell. I would not want to cause my other children grief and confusion,nor the loss of their father who they love.<BR>That is selfish too.<P>You told me she often threatened you she was going to tell me. Don't you see the trap she set? You had to tell me since she lied to you and got pregnant.She made sure I would know. What kind of a human being would be so cold?<P>After a long time of praying to God to show me the way to walk,I have decided I want a divorce.<BR>It is very hard for me to tell the only man I have ever loved that I want this marriage to end.<BR>The Bible ok's a divorce for my situation.<P>The pain of leaving is far less than the pain of having a constant reminder around the rest of my days of your devious betrayal to me and our precious marriage. It was the last thought in my mind as you always said it would never happen to us.<P>You would tell me "If you ever want to be with someone else Deb,tell me,don't embarrass me by having an affair."<P>I am sorry Bobby. I can't be with a man who would consider putting me through all of this and just move on as if it never happened.<P>My last thought is that for a tiny revenge,I hope the court does go after the 55 thousand they got for the house.<BR>She sent those papers by sheriff not to remind you,but to let me know who really gave you all that money. Even after they got all that money back minus 5 thousand. And I detect your feeling bad about it.<BR>What about Lorinda? Did you feel bad about that too?<P> Love, Debi<P><BR>Hi Everyone. I wrote this this morning and if needed will present it to him when my son is through talking and leaves. I may have to wait for another time this week or next.<P>The reference to Lorinda" is another investor we had on a house he built to sell which they broke even on. He didn't mind SHE didn't profit from that sale! I sense too much unspoken "feel sorry" for ow. I'm pissed off. FEEL SORRY for ME!<P>UGH!!!<P>I really am comfortable with my letter as even though it's the last thing I ever wanted he leaves me no choice. And I will truly be miserable.....but only for a while I hope.<P>After all,I don't want to be with a man who could do this to me,in all deep down honesty.<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gem, I dont blame you a bit for feeling the way you do. You do what you have to do. The one thing you so need right now is some way to be able to move ahead. With h hem hawing on oc I would feel the same way you do. Be strong, I hope your son is doing better today. Your letter sounds good to me. with love flowerseed <P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.