anOW:<P>You sound silly and immature and have caused me to spray my computer screen with coffee in fits of hilarity. Do you have any idea how absurd and ridiculous you sound? Go away.<P>Catnip =^^=

K,<P>well, until the other day, I had never even heard of this site. I was actually posting on a TOW board and told them my situation and someone, in hindsight I gues it was a wife that was trying to be funny, suggested I come here for support and answers to my questions. I mean, she literally directed me right to this board with the entire URL and noot just to the homepage. After reading some of the posts about the other situations, I decided to post.

anOW,<BR>What it says about my h is that he made a really big mistake. One mistake does not mean that he has poor character. It means that he is human. The fact that is is horrified by his errant ways proves that his character has improved, not the other way around. Like he and I always say, the only filthy dirty thing h ever did in his life was her - and that holds true both figuratively and literally. And no, he did not rape her. But he also did not consent to parent a child with her. you cannot tell me that consent for sex is the same thing as consent to parenthood because for women it isn't. Thus it should not be for men.<P>As for your child being hurt: I am a person who has made my career in working with troubled children. I have seen cases so remarkably similar to what you are describing and I have seen the effect that it has on the children. I believe that you truly feel that your child will not suffer, but I would ask that you do some serious research on children who were the result of adulterous relationships. Even those who have succeeded in life (and there are pitifully few of them) will say that they succeeded despite great obstacles - the biggest one being the lack of a stable and CONSTANT two parent environment. Which you cannot provide. I have no doubt that you feel your intentions are good. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.<P>I'm sure that you are as set in your opinions as I am in mine, and that neither one of us would get far if we spent ten years doing nothing but arguing this matter back and forth. But I ask you this: What is the best possible circumstances in which a child should be born. If your answer is "with a father who is married to somebody other than the child's mother" there is something wrong with you. And if that's not your answer, you have just admitted that you are choosing to bring a child onto this earth knowing full well you are depriving him of the opportunity to live under the very best of circumstances. I am a strong pro-life advocate, so please do not assume that I am encouraging you to abort. I would , however, encourage you to find your child an adoptive father who can commit ALL of his energy into caring for you and your child. Or allow your child to be adopted. To do otherwise based on your "love" for this mm is to act selfishly and irresponsibly.<P>I really do welcome your response. But please be aware that I cannot change my stance.<BR>-cd

it's not only my choice to allow my child to be adopted, his father has some say in the matter and he would definately say NO because that child is a part of him. What kind of man would he be to deny his own flesh and blood? Besides, we all live in the same neighborhood so it's not like he won't see both of his parents everyday.

Christ almighty! Was I this arrogant and without a clue when I first came here? You ladies were way too polite. Ya'll should have told me to shut the f**k up and get on out of here! I heard someone say that a lady does not go where she's not wanted.<P>anOW, don't be so smug and full of yourself. You've got a long road ahead of you. Things aren't always what they appear to be. Trust me, I've been there. You should strive to live your life with more dignity and integrity. There's nothing dignified about being the OW. If it were "okay", it wouldn't be considered taboo. You're stuck in the "this is different so everyone else is wrong" phase. It'll pass and then reality is going to cave your head in...at least that's what it feels like. If nothing else, please think of your little one!! I made the choice to keep my baby, and I don't regret it. But don't think for one second that I don't worry about what the future will bring for my precious little guy. I don't really give a damn what people think or say in regard to me, but the thought of my son being exposed to any pain or cruelty because of the choices I made...well, the thought is intolerable. I have to live with that and have faith that when the day comes, I will have taught my son properly and anchored him with love and faith in ME. Don't you want that with your child? How can you have faith in someone who accepts lying, cheating, deceiving, and selfishness into their everyday life? Believe it or not, that's what you have with your MM. Don't you get it? Your child will live by your example...and it's not a very good one.<BR>

Dear anow,<BR>He would be a man who is acting unselfishly and in the very best interests of his child. My h has already told ow that he would bow out gracefully if she intended to marry her live-in boyfriend so that he could adopt oc and they could raise her together without his interference. However, what ow wants is to have her cake and eat it too. she wants to suck us dry in child support and at the same time deny my h parental rights. We maintain that if he is going to be called upon to be the father in any way (ie, financially) he should be recognized as the father in all ways. <BR>Seeing both parents everyday is just not the same. Not the same as a child knowing that he is his father's ONLY priority in life. My children all know that their dad loves them more than anything else on earth. Will yours be able to say the same? I wish you would look ahead to the days when your child is teased on the kindergarten playground because of his situation, and to more distant days when he will question why he is a "[censored]". I'm not intending to be cruel - just stating the facts as they will be - and trust me, both scenarios will happen. It is a hard, hard world out there and I shudder to think of sending a child out to face it with additional burdens.<P>Have you considered allowing the wife to adopt your child? I would have been delighted to raise the oc as my own. I know that would be a heartbreaking decision - but what a testament to your love for your child.<P>Write back if you want. I'm here listening.<BR>cd

sorry if I appear to be smug an arrogant, really, I'm not. This is my first child and he his the most important thing in my life. Now, maybe I'm interpreting the conversations wrong but it seems to me like everyone is saying I should just disappear from MM's life and got to some far off place and find a SINGLE guy that's willing to raise my child as his own. Am I wrong or is that pretty much the jist of things? You guys don't seem to understand that that is not how his Father wants it to be. And what justice would I be doing my child for him not to know his father or anything about him and pretend like some other guy is his father? Wouldn't my child end up hating me, knowing that his father WANTED to be a part of his life, and I chose to exclude him? Maybe having an affair wasn't the most moral thing to do but what's done is done. I didn't try to trap him by getting pregnant either. Believe me, this could not have come at a more inconvenient time, but I'm dealing with it, and so is his father.

Dear Ohbratti1,<BR>I don't know what you were like when you first came here because that was before my time. but right now you are a sweetheart and that's all that matters. A year ago, if someone said that I would become the staunch supporter of ANY ow, regardless of her situation, I would have bet my right arm against it happening. and now I find I would be a limbless wonder. Good thing I didn't bet my right arm or I wouldn't be able to salute you like I do now... <BR>-cd

I swore that I wouldn't respond to this "person", but I just couldn't help it after reading the latest. <P>Being a person who HAS given a child up for adoption, yes it is a hard decision, but also one of the most UNselfish decisions I ever made!!! Like CD said, you shouldn't be taking yours and this MM's feelings as the only ones that are involved here! This child would be much happier with FULL TIME parents, not just ones who live in the same neighborhood, and will trade off time with this child! Geeze, if that's what you guys all want to do, move to Utah, and find that guy who has 5-6 wives and over 20 children. Maybe you could join in with them and be on tv too!!! Think about what you are doing to this innocent child, and what will happen to this innocent child as it grows up in a lifestyle such as you have discribed! It is this child's feelings that you and this MM need to think about. Stop being so selfish about it, and think what you will answer this child when it starts wondering where he/she belongs in your screwed up picture!!

One other thing, it isn't who father's the child it is who raises it who becomes the DADDY! Just because you "didn't try to get pregnant" doesn't mean that you wouldn't get pregnant. Question, did you know he was married when you slept with him??????

Tigger4jdt,<BR>I swore I wouldn't respond either. I am feeling like such a hypocrite. But somebody has to point out to anow what you just did, and what I have been attempting to.<BR>As always, I take my hat off to you. I think you are so fantastic. Talk about grace and courage...<BR>-cd

Thanks CD!! <P>I just got my hackles up and couldn't get them to go back down. Being where I am, and what has happened in my past, I get totally p#$$%$ off when these people think that it is just something that is impossible to do!<P>Tigger

No, Sorry, I'm not poor and even if my MM wanted nothing to do with this child I would not be struggling by raising him with no help. So why on EARTH would I let his wife adopt my child? There is nothing, ABSOLUTELY nothing that she can give him that I can't. You people are to stressfull. I'm going back to TOW where the people, even some of the wives, make more sense, to me, than SOME of you do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...suggested I come here for support and answers to my questions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>anOW, what are your questions? If you're wondering about how come a betrayed spouse is upset with the OP, it ought to be pretty clear. If you wonder why they appear more upset at the OP than their spouse, it's because they need a target for their anger, and it's easier to transfer that to the OP than beat their spouse up with it---especially when they're trying to save the marriage. If the marriage ends up in divorce, you'll see plenty of "vent" against the wayward spouse.<P>If you're trying to do the "right" thing for all involved, and trying to make it into a "win-win" situation, then good luck. It's very hard. <P>Have you ended the affair? Regardless of the answer, does the wife know and agree? In the opinion of pretty much everyone who posts on MarriageBuilder's, the marriage comes first (especially if there are children from the marriage). The top priority is for the husband and wife to get on the same page. To be committed to each other. From there, the issue of how to deal with the OC (and the OW) is tackled. Your child would be fine if you found a man (unmarried), married him, and he raised him as his own. Should he eventually know the circumstances?? I'd say yes. Would that surprise him? Sure... But he wouldn't end up hating you, or his "dad".<P>I would suggest that you indeed bow out, to allow the wife and the MM to decide, JOINTLY, on their own. And then, morally try to accomodate them in their wishes. If they don't want to be involved in the child's life, and you can afford to raise the child on your own, w/o child support, then I would suggest that you do it. If you need child support, then I suggest that you arrange it to be a fair and reasonable amount. And if they want to be involved, and the wife can really deal with this, then it can work out.<P>But that's usually the exception, and certainly not the rule. One issue Harley has with affairs is that there needs to be a complete separation from the affair partners for the marriage to heal. If your MM wants to be involved with his son, and the wife is on board, I would suggest to her that she be the intermediary, and that you and the MM never speak again.

anOW,<BR>It is possible that the wife, with her h's help and agreement, can give him a stable home with two FULL TIME parents. You cannot, at least not under these circumstances. The issue is not who can provide child with more material goods. <BR>And hey, what were your "questions" anyway? I didn't hear you ask anything. so far you have just been voicing your opinions. If you want to prove your maturity, or if you think you can persuade some of us that you are right in your opinions, turning tail and running when it gets too "stressful" is not going to do it for you. my guess is that the truth is hitting a little too close home for you.<BR>what did you expect to get when you came to the MB site? did you expect all the wives to congratulate you on your affair, on sharing a h that is not yours?<BR>I'm not sure you know what you want, anow. why don't you figure out what your asking for and then maybe we can give you a better response.<BR>cd

By the way, anow,<BR>If YOU can't stand ME pushing your buttons, how the heck do you think your child, your BABY, is going to feel when other people get on him about this?<BR>I think that you are leaving in part because I used the word "[censored]". But you do things according to your grand scheme, and trust me, your son is going to hear that word, and they won't be as kind-hearted as I was in saying it.<BR>The more I think about it the more I think you came here because deep down you KNOW that what you are doing will hurt your child. Otherwise, why would you be seeking support and help from a marriage-builders site, a place you had to know would not concur with your beliefs. If you were truly confident that you are doing the right thing you wouldn't be here in the first place.<BR>-cd

anOW,<P>I have a question. If you have everything under control. As you say, the wife is blessing your affair, and you. Then why do you need support? Why would you feel the need to talk to someone, if you are looking for someone on the outside to bless your lifestyle, keep looking. Maybe you were sent here because that woman thought you needed a little talk. no offense but you won't get any support at a marriage building site, and you are telling us you could care less about the wife and the marriage. Of course you don't have any idea about what we are talking about, you have no morals, and thus can't even comprehend what being a truthful person is. Just like we can't comprehend living the lifestyle that you live and think society would ever approve of it. I think you better go back to TOW. What I worry about is how people like you (not you ohbratti) are going to breed, and then raise them thinking it doesn't matter to have morals, feelings, or respect for another person. <P>babstr.

Tigger4,<BR>Of course she knew he was married. But it really didn't matter because....<BR>1. He didn't love his wife.<BR>2. He and his wife were only still together because of the children and finances.<BR>3. He and his wife NEVER have sex.<BR>4. His wife didn't make him feel special like his ow did.<BR>5. His wife didn't understand him, she was a cold and selfish *****. yadda yadda yadda.<BR>Have I left any out ?<P>We have heard it all a thousand times before. These women never see themselves as responsible. According to them it is always the mm.<P><BR>Jtigger<p>[This message has been edited by Jtigger (edited February 23, 2001).]

<BR>CD,<P>You have it right. There are reams of psychological data showing that children are better off in two-parent homes, but anOW doesn't care about that. And for her choice she'll have to vicariously suffer the agony of other children taunting her child. The normal tease of "Yo[ur] Mama" is going to have a profound meaning here. The child will know it, and so will the child's peers.<P>Bystander<BR>--<BR>Who still wonders what anOW's "questions" are.

First and Foremost, I guess I should say "thank you" to you all. But I'll get back to that in a moment. I do have one question though--- why is you RIP through OW's so much except for the one's that kiss your asses? I mean, some one who did the same thing but now has seen the "error of her ways" and begged for forgiveness and stays on this site b/c now you like her because she left her MM alone. Doesn't change the fact that she slept with him and got pregnant by him, but b/c she's so much better than the rest of us now, she's cool. What's up with that? But ANYWAYZ, back to the thank you's. When I left earlier, I called my MM and told him to go to this site and see what you people were saying about our child. He agrees that a child should grow up with it's mom and dad AND that the child should see that both its parents are happy together. SOOOO, he told Wifey that even though he appreciated her understanding and support through this whole thing, but he just wasn't happy in the marriage and he wants a divorce. She was upset, of course and I DO feel about about it, but he is a grown man and made that choice on his own. She has packed a few things and is leaving tonight to go home to her parents. Thank you guys so much because with out your advice I really don't think he would have made that decision.