...it should probably be me.<P>I looked at anow's post as a tool to use in sorting out my thoughts on this horrible situation I am in. I have a whole mess of tangled thoughts and opinions bumping around in my head and I kind of seize upon anything I can to get them out and in order. For example, replying to anow's theory that a w who takes her h back is automatically consenting to "accept" the oc into her life gave me the chance to lay out what I felt (and still feel) was a powerful argument to the contrary. I guess in my own egotistical way, I was thinking that reading something like that might help other bs who are struggling to determine where they stand on that topic. I guess I am stuck on thinking that if I have something worked out logically and morally, and can express it verbally and specifically in a way that forecloses on opposing arguments, it will force the "opposition" to realize the fallacies in their own viewpoints.<P>I admit to being able to ignore anow's baits, but I made a conscious choice not to. In fact, I baited her, because I knew I could punch holes in anything she said. I knew I had an unfair advantage intellectually. Not very "sporting" of me, I admit, to purposely prey on the weak, especially at the expense of the forum.<P>I guess I have a hard time remembering that I speak only for myself and not the bs population as a whole. I'm always trying to say what I think everybody else wants to say but perhaps is having a hard time finding the words for. I have an overdeveloped sense of "truth, justice, and the American Way" and an underdevoloped sense of humility. In Shakespearian plays, the tragic character often suffers from "hubris", a stubborn pride that makes the character believe that he is doing right and prevents him from realizing that he is hurting others. Boy, can I ever relate.<P>Anyway, my point is: If I have offended anybody, I am so sorry. If anybody out there finds it impossible to forgive my transgressions (which were committed with good intent, but poor judgement), just say the word and I will pull out of this forum. Far better for me to go than for someone else to go because of me. Especially those who have been here much longer.<P>If I don't actually get any requests to leave, I will make sure that my future posts and replies are for the purposes of either:<P>1.asking for help with my own problems<BR>or<BR>2.trying to give support to others<P>If what I want to write doesn't fall into one of those categories, I will simply keep it to myself. fair enough?<BR>-cd

cd,<BR>Now thats enough dont even think about leaving. Look at what this peice of s*** has done that probly was her intention all along she couldnt cause problems where she was at, So she came here to do it. I really think these girls get off on the destruction they cause they are very sick puppies. I think what you said to her was great. with love flowerseed

No, CD, I don't think you should leave. But I have been upset by some of your posts and I will tell you why.<P>Before you joined our group, one of the things that we spoke about was that each one of us comes from different backgrounds, different economic levels, different educational levels. But, dealing with this problem is not about how much money you make or how far you went in school. It is strictly about the commonality of human beings.<P>On this issue, before it happened to me, I was compltely ignorant. My marriage was the American success story -- two wonderful careers, beautiful home, fancy cars -- all of the things that society says mean something, but when you separate them from a caring and close relationship mean absolutely nothing. <P>My husband have a child with another woman? That was a problem for women with "uneducated, or low-class husbands". That is what I had been brought up to believe. <P>I now fully understand that this awful mess happens to anyone because it is not about how smart you are or how much money you make. It is about inability to communicate feelings in a relationship and poor judgment. Unscrupulous people come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and so do gullible people. I am married to a gullible one who met the most unscrupulous one.<P>I have been put off by your constant reminders that you believe yourself to be more intelligent that anyone on this board and so naturally your opinion should be our "policy". In your post above, you have recognized that you tend to bait people because [QUOTE]if I have something worked out logically and morally, and can express it verbally and specifically in a way that loses on opposing arguments, it will force the "opposition" to realize the fallacies in their own viewpoints.[/UNQUOTE] <P>When I come to the forum, I would love to hear how you feel about an issue that I bring up, or how you dealt with something specific. But I need to take your view, along with everyone else's views, and adapt it to suit me because there is no pure logic on this matter. The things that the cheaters in our lives did do not make any sense and were not based on any logic. So the last thing I need is to be "preached" at or made to feel that there are right or wrong feelings. My feelings are my own and only I can say what is ultimately right for me.<P>I thing you are a person with good intent and strong-willed people can handle your strong opinions. I also know that if you are at home all day, this issue is probably eating you alive. I remember so well the crazy and confusing thoughts that came into my mind in the beginning when I had time for my mind to wander.<P>You don't have to keep anything to yourself. This forum is open to all and for all types of concerns related to this issue. But what I have always loved about this forum is that we all come here together on equal footing. And, we all come with open minds and open hearts to listen and learn as much as to offer advice and comfort. <P>I don't respond to your posts because I feel that there is nothing I can say that you will listen to because you have already placed yourself above me and my thinking.<P>If any one of us were better than another then we wouldn't be here. I just hope that we can all acknowledge that we are in the same very big, unsteady boat and unless we all pull together through support for one another some of us may not make it to shore.<P>I also hope, CD, that you are not offended by what I have said. I am an honest person but not a cruel person. And, I would be happy to respond to you at any time if I had the feeling that you were searching for answers rather than wanting to tell everyone else the answers.<P>Praying for us all...<BR>- heavenly

My god, heavenly, I never intended for anybody to think that I think I am smarter than them or that I am above them in any way. I only mentioned it because I feel like I should be out there doing something to make this better for all of us. I feel like I am wasting some sort of stupid "gift" that God gave me. More like a curse if you ask me. All my life people have been saying, "You are so smart. Why don't you use the gifts you were given? It would be a sin to waste that intellect." And all my life I wanted to be average. I wanted to be a wife and mother. I didn't want to be a freaking brain surgeon. I didn't want to be a professor. I didn't want to be a rocket scientist. I married a guy who didn't even make it past 9th grade (he got his GED after we got married) who is a mechanic. Oh, you don't know how disappointed everybody was. I just heard from a high-school buddy who is on the planning committee for our 10th year reunion. She said the main gossip of the evening was how funny it is that I had children the regular way instead of trying to genetically engineer "superkids" Really, really funny. i won't be going to the reunion. All my life people have been disappointed in me because I haven't lived up to my "potential". But heaven help me if anyone ever found out about it. I got pulled out of kindergarten class to be poked and prodded mentally by specialists. I was the guinea pig for two different university researches on genius children. I have always been different in a way that I never ever ever asked to be. I have always been alienated and cut off from everybody. Thank god I found my h who only cared about me and not about my damned "potential". Or at least that's what I thought at the time. Then later I find out that even HE didn't think I was a special enough person to be faithful to. <P>I guess in some sick way i feel like the whole oc thing is God's way of punishing me for not doing something "better" with what he gave me. Like He is forcing me to use it. I feel like since I didn't do something "better" with my life, he made it so that I would HAVE to. I am so tired of fighting. I am so tired of wondering whether my h was attracted to ow because of her normalcy, because I am hard to live with. I don't want anything in life as much as I want to be average, and this whole oc situaation has just GUARANTEED that I will always be different. As if I wasn't different enough to begin with. If this was God's plan to force me into using this stupid gift, I hate Him. I hate ow. I hate oc. I hate me. Why would he punish me for not using something I didn't want to begin with? I don't understand. Everytime I was pregnant, I prayed that the baby would be born "average" they all were as far as I can tell. Thank god they will never have this misery. <P>See the thing is, I don't feel like I am better than anybody. I feel like I am so much less of a person than just about anybody I know. <P>I am so sorry if it sounded like I was trying to show that I was superior to anybody. I am so vastly INFERIOR that I guess I tend to overcompensate. I don't think my opinion should be anybody's policy. In fact, your policy should just about be the opposite of what ever I say. I am so freaking stupid.<P>Heavenly, I know that what you said wasn't intended to be hurtful. It was all very true. I haven't ever meant to hurt anybody or to put anybody here down and I am so sorry that I came off as making an a$$ of myself - AGAIN. I am going to leave the forum now - not because of what you said. What you said was fair and honest and right. But because i can't help anybody. i can't even help myself. I will probably still read what you all write because, contrary to the impression I have given everybody, I am always searching, searching, searching for a way to handle this. i don't know if I will ever be able to handle it. i would rather die than try and if it weren't for my kids, I probably would kill myself.<P>Please don't waste any of your kind words trying to make me feel better. It is the way I am, and I will always be this way, and there is nothing that will ever make it better. I am better off suffering alone. i have always suffered alone, so at least it is familiar territory for me.<P>I have so appreciated everybody making me feel welcome for the short time I was participating here. It is as close as I have ever felt to being part of a group. I am so sorry that my own shortcomings prevent me from being part of it in the future.<P>I am just so sorry. So sorry.<P>I guess now I really don't have anything else to say but goodbye.<BR>-cd

cd,<BR>I am sitting here trying to type this thru my tears. Please dont feel that way about yourself. I think you are a wonderful person. I cant say anymore right now other than I am so sorry you feel this way. I feel so bad that all this has happened to us all hear what is going on? with love flowerseed

CD,<P>Please don't leave. Like everyone has stated, you have a right to state your opinions, and site your experiences. That's what this board is for, to help and be helped. Yes, sometimes it does come across as "bragging" about your IQ, but I agree that maybe you can do something about this CS system because your ARE so inteligent! Just like Catnip is trying to do something about the OW and her suit against her for personal injury. Don't let this anOW hurt anyone else. Just because of those 2 threads, look what we are now saying and doing to eachother. There have been many posts/threads written by you that have been VERY helpful (ie: the letter to the court/state rep) I know that your situation and mine are different, but you have even helped me, and I know that you have helped others as well.<P>Yes, we got off on a bad tangent, but as Catnip has said, it gave you guys a chance to "sharpen your claws" and, in some cases, say stuff the the OW that you don't feel you can in your own situations, but would like to. anOW pushed everybodies buttons, just not everyone answered her. Heck, I wasn't going to, but got caught up in her web of deception too. Everybody needs to just chalk this one up to experience, and remember what happened this time, if another "anOW" comes a calling. The board needs to stick together, and no one is asking that you leave.<P>Take these women for what they really are, anOW and Anthea were just here to stir up dust and bad feelings, and look what they did, they succeeded! We can't let them do that again! I know the reason I am accepted on the forum, and love you guys for it. I also know that there are only a couple OW here who are accepted as well. Those of us who can be/are considered the OW, but are accepted here, respect all of you guys and what you are going through. Don't let these OW, who think that they deserve what the laws so willingly give, without considering the existing family, push us to this point again.<P>Again, please don't leave. I know you said you would lurk, but you are still needed here.<P>Tigger

CD,<BR>I have only been here a short time, since December of last year. When I found this forum it was as if God had sent it from above. I needed so deperately to hear from women like me. You were one of the first who responded and greeted me. For that I am grateful.<P>As far as your postings. I have never felt that you put yourself above others in a vindictive way. ... No matter how any member in particular feels about your posts, they can pick and choose which post to read and respond to. I personally do not respond to a few members posts because I cannot relate to their situations and/or I have nothing productive to offer. I feel like the other members of this board should and will do the same with you. And you should not feel guilty about it. I learned a long time ago that it is not my job in life to make sure everyone likes me. That would be a hopeless task. <P>Continue what you do and the wonderful things you say. Continue to help those who you think you can help and seek help for yourself when you need it. <P>DO NOT LET ANYONE DICTATE YOU SELF WORTH! <P>As for the anOW issue. I too was baited. I read without responding for a long time... then she said something, just one phrase that ticked me off. It got to me because it was something my XOW had said just that week. That she didn't want to loose her friend. I couldn't control myself... my fingers were typing faster than I could think! I even had to go back and edit the post because I had used pronouns referring to me and my family that were inappropriate if I was talking to her (anOW). I really felt like I was talking to my XOW. Sooooo don't you dare feel guilty for what you did. I don't and I will not allow myself to be made to feel guilty by any member of this forum. You shouldn't either. I know that I am not perfect. All I can do is strive to be a better person. <P><BR>I guess the most important point I'm trying to make is..... people can choose what they read. You keep posting... if they don't like what you have to say, they can turn the page. The same goes for the person who is turning the page.... if someone doesn't like what they say... others will turn the page. It's the beauty of free speech. Why should anything else apply here?<P>That's all i have for now. I'm going to self endulge and go shopping. (don't tell hubby!)<P><BR>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.<p>[This message has been edited by zebrababy (edited March 02, 2001).]

CD,<P> DON'T be so hard on yourself! I think most of us KNOW that you weren't meaning to come off as thinking you were superior to anyone in any way.<P> Look, I have a high IQ, as well. I also have a learning disability....hearing loss. For much of my life, I have had to deal with so-called "normal" people of average intelligence treating me as though I am mentally handicapped. NO JOKE! Oh, I can see how my occasional inability to understand spoken words or the difference in my speech can give the impression of mental slowness. So....I just let 'em think what they want to think and later just WHAM 'em with my intelligence. I have made more than a few people eat their words. LOL!<P>I married a man who didn't finish high school. I suspect that he has undiagnosed learning disabilities. However, he is smart as a whip, a hard worker, and has loads of common sense in most things. He has provided us with a very good living over the years.<P>I guess a lot of people would say that I haven't made the most of my intelligence, either. But, who cares? I know what I want, and though I haven't yet achieved it, I think that knowing what I want is half the battle.<P>Please don't leave. You do make a tremendous amount of sense to me. I understand how you think in terms of logic and reasoning, as I tend to think that way, too (I LOVE logic puzzles!). It's just important that we remember that we are dealing with our emotions here, and sometimes our emotions override our logic. It just takes some of us a while to get our emotions under control so we CAN use our heads.<P>

My dear CD,<P>You gave me exactly what I was hoping to hear in your last post -- honesty. It was the first glimpse that I have seen of YOU -- the real you -- and how you are truly dealing with the OW/OC situation. <P>Believe it or not, I know exactly how you feel. I am not using nice words to make you feel better. It is not my style. If I use nice words it is because there is good in every situation -- you just have to search for it -- and I see plenty of good in yours.<P>My life is very similar to yours, my dear CD. I too have a gift from God that I take no credit for. I have a similar IQ, never gotten less than an "A" in my life - valedictorian in every school I ever attended - from elementary school through university. I have truly been gifted with the ability to communicate easily and the power to persuade others - this has led to a collection of more trophies, awards, certificates, etc. for speech and academics than I could modestly admit. So, I fully understand what it is like to be different.<P>Things come so easily for me. I never had to study, if I read something I remember it. And my H, although he has a great career, has no higher education. So, I also know how you feel about people thinking you married an "intellectually inferior" person. That is one of the reasons that has kept me living in fear that my family would find out about the OC. That would be another negative to add to the list they have against my H.<P>I am telling you all this because I, like everyone else on this forum, sense that you have a good heart and are motivated to help others. But then, I wish you would just do that. There is no need to say that you are helping someone because of your IQ. Because that is not the real reason. You are helping because your heart tells you to do it. The IQ is incidental and may help you to put the words together better, but it does not make you what you are. <P>I struggled for most of my life trying to be MORE, trying to make my parents proud, trying to live up to the gift that I have. But I feel now that I have given more to life than just about anyone I know. I have a good marriage (yes, I can say that even with the OW/OC situation) and I am replacing my H and myself on this planet with two children who I am teaching to be responsible and caring. Can a human being do more than that?<P>Is the OW/OC a punishment for the way that you are? Absolutely not. It just happened. It is one of life's cruel little twists and turns that happens to anyone at any time.<BR>The feelings that you wrote, CD, I have felt them all -- wanting my kids to be "normal", knowing that I am hard to deal with, wanting to die ... I've been there and I finally think that after this last bout with depression I have learned to conquer those feelings. In fact, I think I have put my marriage back on track (now that's a secret I know you want to hear about...)<P>You can too. You can let out all of the beauty that is inside you and learn to love yourself. For me that is the first step to understanding and dealing with the OC situation. And, I believe that is the key for you too. If you would allow, I think that I and many others here can help you to find your way too. People like us are so logical that it is extremely hard to accept a situation that simply has no logical base.<P>So what do you say? You're not as freakish as you thought ... who'd have thought you would find a fellow genius level IQ-er right here on the MB Forum? I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about things that have happened to me as a result of the "curse" as you so aptly put it. <P>If you leave the forum, then I will have to leave too because everyone will hate me for driving you away. Don't you have enough on your conscience? Do you want my regression there too?<P>By the way, if you ever want to e-mail me you are welcome to do so at rosepell@ivillage.com. Sometimes it is hard talking in front of an "audience" and there are things that you sometimes need to be said one-on-one.<P>love<BR>- heavenly<p>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited March 02, 2001).]

heavenly, <BR>Very tricky, what a relief. For a moment there I though maybe we all had pms really bad this month. with love flowerseed

Heavenly,<BR>I don't want you to take my silence right now to mean I am ignoring you. I'm not ignoring you. I am so lost.<BR>-cd

heavenly please check your email

cd, DON'T GO!!!!!<P>I would miss you and your fiery approach to almost everything.<BR>C'mon back.<P>I hope by next week you are posting your little fingers off.<P>I do not have yours' and Heavenlys' problem of "high" IQ. (I am kidding....it's no problem as far as I can see....do you guy's read "ask marilyn" every Sunday? She's a genius and well loved!)<P>My problem was "cute".<P><BR>I hated that.<P>I wanted "beautiful"<BR>I wanted "graceful"<BR>I wanted "gorgeous"<P>But no....at 5 feet tall and 100 lbs....I get cute and kewpie doll and all that goes with being a dimiutive woman.<P>What I mean to say is all our "faults" are greatly exaggerated in our minds when we receive a blow like we've taken.<P>I guess that's why I finally went for the "big kahunas" to feel more grown-up!<P>Incidently, they look mah-vo-lous !!!!!<BR>I was unwrapped this morning. No bruises,just lucious "c's"!!!!!! And am I ever perky(not just my attitude)!<P>Hey guy's the one thing I said when I could think straight was why her???? She's opposite of me in stature, looks, size, AND morals.<P>Not the least bit outstanding with the exception that I hear she can really give a good b-job.....(do ya think she swallows? heh...heh....)<BR>Where did I hear that?<P>When H said it was for the promise of "that" while drinking that got him to go to her car!<BR>Testing 123.....is she better than me? Not now he says....but then I'll bet he didn't care....ugh.....makes me vomit!<P>My wildest dream now is to let some guy feel me up after a night of drinking. After all, their big enough to share now....ha..ha..ha..<P>Hope I made you guys smile a little. <P>Please lets all stay together. One broken family is all I can handle these days.<P>So cd, say you'll stay....<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

CD,<P>I checked my e-mail but did not find a message from you. I will check again later and I hope that you will contact me -- I think we could help each other.<P>For the others,<P>I was the first one to say that we are all free to disregard any post that we are not comfortable with. <P>But, there is a great difference between ignoring a post by a person who is obviously trying to make trouble and ignoring a post by someone who truly has a good heart but is presenting the post in an uncomfortable way.<P>I don't want to ignore CD's posts because there is a great deal of value in them. Since she brought the matter up, I was hoping that she could see that we accept her and welcome her regardless of her intelligence because what made her one of us is her willingness to struggle with us.<P>I don't think any of us has "right" answers and I suspected that CD did not have them either. But when it seemed like she portrayed herself as having all the right answers that she was not being honest with herself. <P>I would want to know that something I am saying is putting people off. We come here and we bare our souls to each other. That is what makes this forum so special. And believe me I can take the worst of criticism as long as it is meant constructively. My criticism was constructive and designed to bring CD more into the fold, not to drive her away.<P>At the end of this rather painful exchange, I am hoping that I will develop a new level of understanding with CD and with others here. I take my situation very seriously, and I take all the advice given and received here very seriously. I am speaking from concern not the desire to hurt anyone.<P>And, if you choose to vote me off the island, then I will accept that too. But, I hope no one gets driven away (that means you too, Comfort). I'd rather clear the air and start again on better footting.<P>I hope everyone understands ...<P>love<BR>- heavenly

Dear Debi,<P>We were posting at the same time so I did not read your hilarious message. You certainly make me smile and you are so right -- one broken family is enough for us all.<P>I am trying to encourage CD to stay and I hope she will not hold my post against me.<P>Glad your girls are gorgeous! You sound so happy and I am so happy for you!<P>BTW, swallowing is over-rated (don't ask me how I know ...)<P>love<BR>- heavenly

Well, right now I have just done the online equivalent of having a nervous breakdown in a public place. To say that I am humiliated is a gross understatement. Right now I don't feel as if I can show my face, so I don't know what I am going to do. I think I will probably wait and see how I feel later before I really decide to go or to stay.<P>heavenly, check again - I had the address wrong the first time.<P>gem - I just have to tell you that during our last face-to-face meeting with ow, she remarked that she never ever gave a BJ in her life and that she figured the fact that I do is the only reason my h went back to me. She said that she has never s***** d*** in her life and she's not about to start for anyone. But that I should know that in her opinion, h only left because she wouldn't give him that and I would.<P>I for once was speechless. I sort of expected that she'd make references to their intimacy sooner or later, but not a blatant dig like that.<P>H said, "You can think that if it makes you feel better. But you should know that a bj isn't the only thing you couldn't give me that my wife can. You can't give me ANYTHING that she gives me. Being with you just made me realize that I really wanted to be with her."<P>Good story, eh?<P>Now I will go off and think for a while.<BR>-cd

heavenly,<BR>I understand what your saying. Iam sure cd will to. I think if any of us really wanted to leave we would just go. Thats just what I think. We all have to have some difference in the way we think. Just think how fun that would be if we all agreed on everything. My big problem is my memory I've been accused of being able to remember to much and there is a lot of times I wish I could forget .Gem what fun you must be having with the twins are you going out tonight to show them off? with love flowerseed

by the way if that still didn't go through, MY email is (now deleted)<p>[This message has been edited by cdcollins (edited March 02, 2001).]

Cd, I hope you do not intend to leave the forum. I just read all the posts and I think it would be terrible if you did not continue to post and read in this forum. I have felt that our situations are very similar and I would miss reading and writing to you. let me know if I can help and if you want my e-mail address to contact me. if you would like to contact me please do so. As far as having a nervous breakdown, I have often felt that I would have, should have, and still might have. In reading some of your last posts in this topic I felt terrible about how you were feeling about yourself. The main thing that has keep me sane and strong through the last couple of years has been two thoughts that I repeat to myself many times in a single day...one, I refuse to allow this ruin my life, my life is too important to allow this tragedy to ruin it, my family needs me and I will be strong. Two, things could always be worse, others are not as lucky as me, I have my health, my brains and my beauty and I will survive. Try and use these thoughts to help you, please do not put yourself down as you did in the past, you are only allowing the OW and this whole situation to beat you, don't let it beat you. You beat it, do not let it ruin your life. I wish you well, happiness and comfort. Gabi1116<p>[This message has been edited by gabi1116 (edited March 02, 2001).]

cd,<BR>These ow just are so stupid in the way they think about what a man wants. I like what your h said I think thats why alot of the h come back. I just wish they could have seen that without doing what they have done. I told mine when we were fighting all the time not to come back sniffing around me when he found out the grass wasnt greener on the other side. Little did I know at the time he had already found the pile of manure. with love flowerseed